Removing Copperheads

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Messages 1 - 20 of total 35 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 9, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Jul 9, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
Cool Mark, thanks for the tip!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 08:20am PT
Bump for cleaner walls and challenge!
John Mac

Trad climber
Littleton, CO
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Thanks for explaining how to remove Copperheads!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Mark, dig it.

Dark arts have been in the shadows for a long time.


For a flat pasted (where there is very little crack above or below), have you noticed any difference in peeling it by starting at the bottom vs. the top? Preferred starting point?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
The ones that are flat pasted into very little crack are usually the heads that are in appropriate placements and are heads that I don't remove.

The hardest ones to remove are those where some bozo has really plastered it into a deep crack since its hard to reach back there and still get leverage.

It doesn't bother me at all to actually try to carve a little nut placement or repeatedly hammer in a beak or pin to make a hand placed nut, beak or pin placement either.
nopantsben

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
It doesn't bother me at all to actually try to carve a little nut placement or repeatedly hammer in a beak or pin to make a hand placed nut, beak or pin placement either.
Why does that not bother you? It's chiseling where there would be head placement, no?
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Yup, and others will decry the repeated placement and removal of the head, and the subsequent destruction of the placement. So the head, fixed, yet crappy, requiring no skill to clip or move past, remains. Might as well drill a bolt or rivet, eh?

Which would you prefer?

And then, let's talk about a chiseled head placement in the first place. Manufactured nut, or hand placed beak, rivet or bolt? Which would you prefer?

All in all, it's a moot point since I've been able to move past 98% of all of the heads I've removed via clean means and the other 2% have required a hammered beak or pin.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
What about removing dikHeds... There are some of those on the walls too. Especially the european type.













Sarcasm people.... Just lighten up.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Which would you prefer?

Virgin Stone, place my own heads, then have my cleaner remove them with our butter knives.

Keeps the adventure found in heading up to the next team.


Edit: For sure Mark, I dig your efforts and agree with every single photo you have posted here, showing obvious placements.

Hell, bunch of those could be 20 years old, and have just stood the test of time.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Absolutely, Mucci, I'm all for it, I'd love to place my own heads, in legitimate head placements. This thread though, it mainly about removing heads from placement where they don't belong in the first place, removing them from easy cam and nut placements.

For example, last year on Lost in America, I was really expecting a good battle on the Fly or Die pitch. I really wanted to suffer and be scared. I was severely disappointed to find it pretty much an A0 clip up. All the heads were fixed and there was even a 3/8" bolt in between two rivets. I felt totally cheated.

Credit: Mark Hudon

Credit: Mark Hudon

Credit: Mark Hudon

Credit: Mark Hudon

Credit: Mark Hudon

Credit: Mark Hudon

This cam was actually a bit too small for this placement, I removed it...
This cam was actually a bit too small for this placement, I removed it and placed a larger one.
Credit: Mark Hudon

Really? Someone though this was a legitimate head placement?
Really? Someone though this was a legitimate head placement?
Credit: Mark Hudon
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Nice video, Mark. Lots of extra heads lying around on the walls these days. I think you need to make a run up Mescalito.

Now, in case any of you wants to know how to place heads, here is where you can find out:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/dr-pitons-heading-tips/106076091

Maybe you want to make a cross posting there, Mark - tell us how to take them out, too!
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
I absolutely care NOT to teach people how to place heads. Obviously people don't even know where a head is appropriate or not. I surely don't want to teach them to weld them anymore than they already are.

BTW, Max and I have plans for the first three or five of Mescalito this fall...
m_jones

Trad climber
Carson City, NV
Jul 10, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
One intact copperhead and four dead heads in the space of a foot and a...
One intact copperhead and four dead heads in the space of a foot and a half near the top of the third of mescalito. Looking down there were at least dozen useable heads in a row and I am guessing maybe 25 dead heads in that 30 feet. Time for some cleaning
Credit: m_jones
nopantsben

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
So the head, fixed, yet crappy, requiring no skill to clip or move past, remains. Might as well drill a bolt or rivet, eh?

What's your thing with skill? Routes require the skill they require. There is no need for some police to go up there to make sure appropriate skill is required for a given route. And there is huge difference between a rivet and head.
It's clear that trade routes like LiA do not provide the most challenge. Is that news?

And then, let's talk about a chiseled head placement in the first place. Manufactured nut, or hand placed beak, rivet or bolt? Which would you prefer?

rivet. And there is a huge difference between a fully manufactured head placement in a blank corner or a little help from a chisel to avoid a rivet. The good thing about aidclimbing is that people can do whatever they want as long as they don't drill on established routes and keep them clean.

The photos you show where you moved past heads with "easy cam placements", all have clean gear that was probably not available when those heads were placed or the people didn't have them. Or they didn't have the balls to place the micronuts. And what's the big deal anyway? Why not just leave the head in place and clip it (or not) and move past. You can always place your cam (as a backup), no? not enough fun? There are enough routes that are not too hard and still have virtually no fixed gear because they aren't trade routes.

The problem is taking care of itself without hordes of people with butterknives and 5 sets of offsets, because none of those heads last forever (another difference to a rivet) and may never be replaced if they're unnecessary.
Removing deadheads and tat is really nice, and replacing anchors is great too, thanks and respect for that. Thanks for writing the TR's too, I just don't like the fixed heads are lame and people nail too much yadda yadda.
There should be some room for anarchy up there.

I like nailing.
-nopants






Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
First, you approach them, then when they are coiled up you throw a blanket over them... that confuses them. When they crawl out, then pin their heads down and place them a fair distance away from your land in West Virginia. My cousins in WVA taught me that.

Apologies Mark, I couldn't resist (EDIT - considering your Thread Head), and I am from California, but I do have a bit of land (one acre from my late mother's farm) in West Virginia, first and only place I have ever seen a copperhead.
Ian Jewell

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
in a sense , it still is "anarchy" , i don't think Mark is trying to squash that.
and he couldn't if he wanted to.
he is merely exercising his right to do whatever the fvck he wants up there, by cleaning what he sees fit.

maybe it's the internet spray that rubs people the wrong way , i don't know if that applies to you ben. i guess it could come off as judgmental , and just the "hey, look what i did" nature of it might be construed as sprayish.

i confess , that is how i perceived some of mark's posts like this when i first came across them.

somewhere along the way though , i sort of began to dig what he is doing with this stuff, and the only way i even know about it is the threads with photos and videos. so i can't very well begrudge the sprayishness of it too much anymore.
after all , it is a climbing site, and really ,the whole point of the forum ( ideally ) is climbing content, essentially, stuff like Mark's posts.

when all is said and done, regardless of the ideology or motivation, he goes up there and when he is done a route, he has restored it to a much closer version of it's original condition.
it's impossible to restore the rock to it's actual original condition , but Mark makes an effort to get as close as he can, which i can't help but admire somewhat.

i guess i can see questioning the motivation , whether or not it is like elitist ,or an effort to gate keep the wall to preserve the rad factor of ones own accomplishments, or sit in judgement of the style of others' ascent.

it makes me think, and i don't know if this is an applicable reference , but it seems so to me, of when Ivo and Gabe went and cleaned the shlt out of Zodiac in like 2006 or 7 ?
it was super fixed and everyone was climbing it really fast and the Hubers set the speed record, and the next spring? , no, late in the season , Ivo and Gabe spend three days stripping the living hell out of all the fixed mank.
it changed the nature of the route , most would say for the better.
the route had become , like Mark warns of , pretty much a total clip up.

any way , interesting discussion.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Climbing big walls is all about the challenge. Placing the gear is the challenge. Quite often fixed heads remove that challenge. Removing the heads restores the challenge.

Done deal as far as I'm concerned.
Ian Jewell

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
those photos are pretty hard to argue with.

most if not all are definitely NOT ancient heads from the time before modern cams and micro cams.

looks like , as Mark says, lazy, fearful and misguided placements.


PTPP had some photos from , was it Dihedral wall or Magic Mushroom, of bomber C1 # 1 & 2 camalots, 6 inches away from new shiny protection bolts. implicating TC, if i remember correctly
Offset

climber
seattle
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
climbing a wall may or may not be about the challenge. placing the gear may or may not be the challenge for said wall climber....

everyone's got their reasons....
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