Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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Messages 121 - 140 of total 208 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
The "blame" is pretty obvious to me...no equipment failure, nothing to do with trad vs sport and nothing to do gyms climbers/outside climbers.

What I would hope happen is that the adults taking these kids be qualified and use a checklist for all equipment and check all knots.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Dr who wrote: And if that other member was a 12-year old as well... you think hashing out who is to blame on the (impersonal and often harsh) intardweb is going to help them overcome the loss of Tito and the associated guilt?


One of the parents of the kids put the quickdraws together that way.

I have loss a child...you never overcome it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
^^ Sorry for your loss.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Sad and so stupid. My condolences to his Parents, Family and Friends.



When I started taking my 12 YO daughter out climbing and I became the responsable one - the whole deal of safety changed for me. I checked everything and did not relax intill we were back at the car.



rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
There's no way around it.

Bob D'A has it right.

Yes, there is no way around it and Bob is right...as far as he goes. My previous post was an attempt to address a (if I may say so) more important question, which is why the adults didn't think to check the draws, how it is that belayers lower people off the end of the rope, how it happens that people start up a route with the rope simply draped through the harness tie-in points, all these things and so many more in situations in which there are no environmental or physical stresses to impair judgement or force hastiness.

The fact of the matter is people make mistakes. All of us have. Those of us who are here to argue with each other are the lucky ones who weren't killed by their errors. This doesn't "excuse" the making of mistakes, but it raises a perfectly reasonable question: how can we make fewer mistakes? That was the context in which I suggested, vaguely to be sure, that we need more fear.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Richard wrote: Yes, there is no way around it and Bob is right...as far as he goes.

Wow..that is a little harsh. When adults take children out they are the leaders/responsible ones.

Rgold...I tried to address your questions..you just didn't like my answers.

The adults should have checked the gear. Plan and simple.


Guyman wrote: When I started taking my 12 YO daughter out climbing and I became the responsable one - the whole deal of safety changed for me. I checked everything and did not relax intill we were back at the car.


The above post say it all for me.

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Gosh Bob, I certainly intended no harshness. And no my friend, you didn't and haven't addressed my questions. I don't mind your answers, but they aren't answers to what I'm asking. You keep saying the adults didn't check, which is beyond contention. My question is why didn't they check, and that's what you haven't addressed. Not, by the way, that I actually would expect some pat answer to that question, it was primarily rhetorical.

By the way, I think it was said that the adults gave the kids faulty draws. I don't think that is at all clear. Of course the adults purchased the draws, but another kid assembled them, as stated in the Grimper article: "Voici donc le montage des dégaines...réalisé par un des adolescents du groupe..." Whether the assembled faulty draws passed directly from the kid who put them together to Tito or whether they passed through inattentive adult hands first is not known.

This doesn't change the fact that those in charge had a responsibility to check things. But we might also reflect on the fact that they might never have imagined that the draws could or would be incorrectly assembled.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Richard wrote: My question is why didn't they check, and that's what you haven't addressed.

You didn't asked that in your post...your questions were gray area to me.

"Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match."

Seems gray to me but I could be wrong.

I feel for the parents and the adults who were there...they will never recover from this tragedy but hopefully these groups/gyms will set up systems from this ever happening again.




rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Bob, to quote the next post, which is the one you found harsh,

My previous post was an attempt to address a (if I may say so) more important question, which is why the adults didn't think to check the draws, how it is that belayers lower people off the end of the rope, how it happens that people start up a route with the rope simply draped through the harness tie-in points, all these things and so many more in situations in which there are no environmental or physical stresses to impair judgement or force hastiness.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
I agree with that...should have taken more time to read your full post. I saw it as turning into another trad vs sport thing.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Not to worry Bob, my full posts are, unfortunately...full. What they are full of is another question.

By the way, I don't see this type of thing as being part of some dichotomy between trad and sport. But it is connected to what I see as a pervasive casualness about climbing in general. In my limited experience, I've seen more trad examples than sport examples, but the reverse seems to be the case when you read the news.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Risk and climbing.. what a complex topic. Especially when concerning young children for whom their safety is ultimately the responsibility of adults and the tragedy when we fail them is the worst of tragedies.

In the end there is no way to remove all risk. Yet clearly this was an accident that was avoidable. Lots of tings went wrong. Bad design.. lapse of judgement in assembly, lack of checking gear you are not familiar with personally. Perhaps lack of adult supervision

Yep we need to look at ways to avoid this chain of errors. There are several pieces of advice here of which any one could avoid the same problem in the future. I hope this loss may save others in the future.

Regarding risk though. Climbing is a vast sport with myriads of combinations of difficulty and risk.

Sometimes you want to take on the risk side of the reward equation.. other days you want a nice toprope and fun in the sun. It's all available in this sport. I think it's all worth doing at different times when it's what you want to do.

I have no problem at all with the desire to take as much risk as possible out of SOME forms of climbing.. hell I am ALWAYS looking for ways to minimize risk and still climb what I want to climb. Regardless it's impossible to eliminate it completely and we all roll the dice.. some more.. some less.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I would venture a guess that if the kid involved was not a 5.14 climber that there would have been more/better supervision. The adults possibly are in awe of the kids climbing ability and forget that he was just a kid. Numbers don't mean anything. gravity does not care what the grade of the climb is.

To say that anyone would be tricked by those improperly rigged draws is rediculous. the only other accident i am aware of with those type of draws was a young woman...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
It isn't just kids.
It's adults also.
All the time when I'm at the crags
I see people NOT following safe climbing rules.

From not saying the proper and long standing commands, making up their own commands, not checking their gear before climbing. the list goes on and on.

I LOVE it when someone gets to the top of a climb and says, Ok.
Ok what?
Sheesh, what am I, a mind reader?

Ever since I started climbing back in the 60s, there was a STANDARD climbing commands vocabulary. Stick to it. and check your gear and
every thing else each and every time you set off to climb,
or,








"YER GONNA DIE!!!!"

I Don't mean to be so harsh and I really feel awful about Tito,
but If safety isn't followed more, more kids and adults are gonna
end up the same way.
Climbing is dangerous to begin with,but I'll bet there are more deaths caused by climbers error, and not following or double checking your safety
checklist!

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
I don't think the grades the kid was able to climb has anything to do with it. Safety gear is safety gear. I'm sure it could of happened to any other kid in the group.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
it raises a perfectly reasonable question: how can we make fewer mistakes? That was the context in which I suggested, vaguely to be sure, that we need more fear.

Yep we need to look at ways to avoid this chain of errors.

If you look to commercial, professional and military 'risk procedures' you will find there are proven, effective ways to deal with the risk of complacency. They are time honored and they work. Watch a commercial airline pilot get a plane ready to depart - now apply that rigor to climbing. If we as a group did this? Complacency errors will be greatly diminished. Not eliminated, but greatly reduced.

But we're a free spirited lot and a lot of us can't be bothered with protocol rigor, until, sadly, it may be too late. And many of us never bothered to train for complacency in any real way, anywhere in our lives and therefore may not even recognize it.

I'm as guilty as the next climber, perhaps more so and have only dodged death or worse, by dumb luck and fortunate grace.

DMT
Dr. X

Big Wall climber
X- Town
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
I'm a little late to this party, and terribly saddened by the loss of a child. A thought came to mind though (and sorry if this has already been hashed over, I did not read the previous 400 posts prior to writing this).

I don;t know if Tito's parents are in this category (and I honestly think not), but I was at the gym the other night (I know, generally against the Doctor's morals), and I saw several parents, clearly non-climbers, who brought their kids to the gym to climb.

Well, I would imagine you can get top a point where a child starts to become physically very proficient, and maybe mildly proficient at the mechanics of sport climbing, from spending so much time at the gym.

Now, when these same kids start climbing outside, who is their mentor? Their parents aren't climbers.....Only their peers, also kids. Will this be a growing future problem? Don't know. Thought this might be the forum to start thinking and talking about it though......
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
I'm sure Tito's parents' had no worries in their mind when they sent their child off to go climb with the Climbing Gym group, as they have probably let him go time and time before.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
One of the parents of the kids put the quickdraws together that way.

I have loss a child...you never overcome it.

My best friend in 4th grade killed himself. His dad and my dad were good friends. I saw the agony, the howling, weeping, sobbing, heartache, depression. I can't even imagine what that felt like.

How can anyone ever overcome the sense of responsibility for this tragedy? Damn.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
I don't think there can be anything more painful for a parent than outliving a child.

But please lets not make it worse by circulating things that aren't true. The parents did not assemble the quick draws, another kid in Tito's climbing group did. We don't know if the parents saw the quickdraws before Tito used them. There is tragedy enough to go around as it is.
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