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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Christian Griffith, now there's a flash from the past. These people think they own Eldo and want to restrict access to it, just like people with beachfront property want to keep other people off their beach. They should have more parking downtown and pave the road while they're at it.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Seems sort of a strange place for a hostel--Eldo is very good local climbing, but it doesn't seem to be a destination area. Maybe it used to be, but ham fisted bolting regs seem to have taken care of that.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Yeah, how about "Dingle Berry" and his whole 1 post.
No agenda there, eh?
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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The road is bad and needs to be delt with but then again WTF is our $7 parking permit going to? Is there public transportation to and from Eldo Canyon? In general I like the idea of a hostel at the old post office.
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willem
climber
Land of the mas#@&%e
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1. Is this Christian's grassroots effort to become mayor of Eldo after the failed run in Boulder proper?
2..and despite it not being a "bouldering area or gym" Eldo may not be totally irrelevant. Just watch the message boards around summer time for folks "looking for a place to camp around Boulder."
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Griffith claims that there isn’t as much demand for a hostel as there used to be, since the number of climbers in the canyon has waned with the rise in popularity of bouldering and indoor climbing gyms.
“The demand is probably a fifth of what it was in the ’70s and ’80s,” he says.
Is he saying demand for a hostel is down from the '70s and '80s, or that climbing in the Canyon in general is down?
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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This is kinda cool, we use to bandit camp down there in the lower parking lot in the 90's and a good friend had a teepee set up at the Wind Tower back in the '80's. All the rangers were climbers and would turn a blind eye as long as you were gone by morning and didn't leave a mess.
Most of the ES residents now are pompous yuppies dwelling in their 500K cabins who don't want anyone despoiling their experience of roughin it.
Good effort on CG and friends to bring the cheap low key camping back to the canyon.
I wish them luck. email sent.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Gah misread that part, sorry its cocktail hour down here, vision was blurry, fukin praDA yuppies!
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Rockin' Gal
Trad climber
Boulder
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I support the climber hostel in Eldo and will write a letter or two. Besides, the climbers camping in my backyard would like to be closer to the park.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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To paraphrase Hillary, or somebody, all politics these days are NIMBY-ized.
That said I aver that it won't get built once they start getting the reams
of building and zoning regs thrown at them and realize it will take millions
to satisfy. And if they do get it built it is guaranteed to lose money.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Eldo has, arguably, the best collection of crags in America. It also has camping options....did I say options....sorry, there aren't any.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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It does raise a point...there are two sides to every coin...
If you are in favor of the proposed AAC Hostel in the post office building, write a letter to Phil Powers at ppowers@americanalpineclub.org and cc: the president of the Board of Directors at markkroese@gmail.com
This is America right? Loudest mouth (or most money) wins!!!
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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I live in eldo and most all of us that live here are not down for the hostil. The main reason parking. There is no way we can have 20 some odd dirtbag cars in town. Everyone unwad their panties.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Yes, pull up the drawbridge.....a universal human reaction.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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AAC members and donors might want to look at how their contributions are being used here. $475,000 to purchase run down dilapidated building.
There are many obstacles, no guarantee of a sewer, severely inadequate parking, a challenging land use department, demise of the local kids bus stop, and 80% of neighbors who will fight to stop the hostel.
The building is 4,248 sq ft , the AAC wants to accommodate 20 guests plus management.
Even with approval, Phil Powers agreed it would cost another $475,000 to bring the building up to code.
So close to a million dollars of donor money at least.
Is there another agenda here, what is the AAC up to ?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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As is often said in the field of planning, a modest hostel located at the mouth of one of American rockclimbings' mother churches is a good thing and perhaps a "highest and best use".
We have the very august and historic organization of the AAC doing it and with a good long track record, too, at such endeavors and six current efforts as demonstration domestically, more abroad. A wonderful and transparent, non-profit org has come to help.
Organizations like this have been planned for the mouth of Eldo for at least four decades. I remember when the Lowes had a school planned there. It is a state park, it should have a bunch of accommodations and land holders nearby really need to share this terrific public resource.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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“It would change the whole character of Eldorado Springs,” says Helene Jennings. “What will they do at night? We are a residential community.”
We got to find more smart comments for this question.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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The NIMBY attitude is exactly what led to the creation of the California Coastal Commission. The Commission is widely criticized, but it is beyond dispute that they have made a huge impact in access and the overall quality of our coastal resources. One example is the limiting of timeshares and requiring hotel rooms.
Look to Florida to see a state where free enterprise decided how development would occur, their coastline is awful, you can drive along their version of the Coast Highway and hardly see the ocean for the wall of condos. It is too bad that there is not an equivalent state wide agency in Colorado that could protect public access to the valuable outdoor resources. Although I suppose that in general there is not that many disputes regarding access in Colorado, while the California coast has intense pressure on it throughout the southern and central coast.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Not like it's without precedence...
In 1908 the grand "Eldorado Hotel" opened for guests, with the finest room in the house renting for $2.50 per night. Those not able to stay in the hotel had choices of accommodations ranging from tents to dormitories or private cottages.
P.S. Oh yeah, it's like thirty eight years since I first went to Eldo, screw the gucci shacks, pave the f*#king road already...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Who doesn't have an agenda?
So the AAC is planning to pony up about $50K per bed? And they plan to charge what?
Purely from a business perspective it is a loser, but Eldo has much to offer to climbers.
Too bad today's prancercizers don't appreciate the history and only want to check their tick lists.
If I had a gucci cabin I'd be hostile to the hostel too.
The AAC could probably get more bang for their bucks elsewhere.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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This is a project toward which I would seriously consider donating to the AAC.
Modest accommodations near a significant climbing area without any reasonable camping options is something that should be supported.
Parking will be mandated by the County. It seems that locals have been getting a free ride and allowed to park on private property -- and now consider that privilege a right.
In my youth, I liked setting up in Camp 4, and by cleverly evading the ranger once a day, stayed for weeks on end for free. Times change and our expectations need to follow suit.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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As to another agenda. The AAC is committed to aiding climbers. During my term as President it was noted that a number of key climbing areas were deficient in camping opportunities. While this was not a problem for locals it certainly was a deterrent for visiting climbers. Remember climbers are the travelling sort, local today a visitor tomorrow.....we are all members of the same tribe.
We also noted the success with which we had run the Grand Teton Climbers Ranch for over 40 years. With that as a template and with our national scope it was decided to establish climbing hostels and campgrounds where they were needed when the opportunity arose.
In addition to the Tetons; the New River Gorge, Heuco Tanks and the Gunks have sites already or soon to be established.
Hopefully opportunities will arise in other key climbing areas in the near future.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Does anyone know what ever happened to building a lodge somewhere close to Yosemite? That would seem to me to have a greater need than Eldo.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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The AAC could probably get more bang for their bucks elsewhere.
Well, at ~300 bucks a night, per room, at the St Julien, the 475,000 dollar up front cost would pay for over 1,500 climber nights at one of the better hotels in town.
jus' sayin'......
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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For those of you who think the proposed hostel is okay,can we put a youth hostel next to your house or in your neighborhood and see how it works out for you?
There is a huge list of the impacts on the small,tightly packed in residential community of Eldorado Springs.Too many to list here.If you do not live here or even climb here on a regular basis(3 times/month)you cannot begin to understand the impacts the residents already face from the many park visitors(busiest in the state)and the swimming pool.Sometimes it is overwhelming but at nite they go home and we receive a brief respite from the mayhem.
Before you critique the locals please familiarize yourself with the proposed location. It is not without its own set of problems including the fact that there are residences very close to the proposed location. One has small children.If placed at the proposed location it may force some neighbors with kids to move and leave town.Families make a community not a transient population of vacationing strangers with no connection or commitment to the small community. Also a majority of the climbers who live in Eldo,both renters and homeowners,are against the AAC proposal.
The AAC admitted that the town would see no benefit from having the youth hostel located in town.As for "pompous" locals, you should read the full letter from the AAC by one Penn Burris in response to the Eldo communities letter and petition expressing concern about the AAC proposal. It is the new definition of "pompous". Unless you live in a car or a boat you are all nimbys when something shows up in your neighborhood that has too many negative impacts.Be honest with yourselves,would you want a hostel on the street where you live?
There are much better locations on the front range for this proposal than Eldorado Springs. Thanks ,Steve Sangdahl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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“What will they do at night? We are a residential community.”
do you think there are any pet sheep in the hood? if so then locker wants it built. but please put in a one of those things that holds its head. velcro gloves are inconvenient (or so he says).
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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To all those who are dismissing the cincerns of Eldorado Residents about the hostel..you must all be AAC members. Do you know the residents near the GUNX had a petition too? Do you know the AAC uses their millionare boys club of Goldman Sachs hedgefunders and Penn Burris to acquire the campground in NY and WV. Both campgrounds were rezoned for the AAC. DO you realize they are the 1% and you little minions just help them be more arrogant and greedy with your little free rescue insurance and cheap lodging. They rely on you climbers to do their dirty work by lashing out at anyone who does not go along with the mission of the AAC and climbers everywhere Climbers are not the only people entitled to enjoy or have access to the outdoors. People who work hard and pay taxes to live in a neighborhood have the right not to want overnite visitors.
Climbers are not being denied climbing in Eldo you are here everyday climbing taking up local parking spots and driving like maniacs to get to your giant slabs of rock you are so eager to mount.
The AAC has lodging everywhere don't be so greedy and rude. The attitude of climbers towards others is so despicable and arrogant. If the dirtbag hostel gets built remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
You will not have fun at night here and we will make sure none of you can access even a pebble through private property. Good luck have fun way to support community and local business....why not the west end of Pearl Street where you can go have a drink,a bite to eat, or some music. Please spread the word the AAC is not welcome in ELDO WE ARE NOT THE PARK WE ARE A RESIDENTIAL COMMUNITY ON THE WAY TO THE PARK!!!!
watch out above for falling rocks...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Be honest with yourselves,would you want a hostel on the street where you live?
There are much better locations on the front range for this proposal than Eldorado Springs. Thanks ,Steve Sangdahl
The above is not logical, unless the writer thinks that a hostel should not be on a street where anyone lives. I don't think that would make a very nice hostel.
Best way to think of Eldo is like a good university in a bad neighborhood--gotta be ware of the "townies" who don't contribute much if anything to what makes it a nice place, but if you ignore them, they mostly mind their own business.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
Okay... nice to hear a voice of reason in this debate.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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and screw the yuppie locals in their gucci cabins..really we just work for a living instead of living in our cars. we do not want climbers here 24 hours a day. the new river gorge and gunx are campgrounds. why would anyone want you people here.and your 7 dollar park fee ha nothing to do withthe road or the town jackass but I would not expect anything less from a dirtbag like the WEDGE
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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I may be wrong, but I think a lot of those residences were built there especially because of the location to the park and the swimming pool. Some of the old pictures I've seen of the resort show a much more crowded Eldorado than it is now.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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the place has changed we are not the state park . we just do not want people to have a cheap motel here when all of us pay a lot of money to live here and the AAC is a non profit for elitist climbers who think they deserve to sleep wherever they can.. why can you just leave at the end of the day and go sleep somewhere else. we are not the park and we are not denying any outdoor resource to climbers give me a break ..Penn burriss quoted our members are white males who make over a 100,000 grand a year and are college educated so what we should be so honored to have more strange white men trolling through residential communities especially in Colorado where many a white men have shot, cut up, raped and killed women and children can you guarantee that this wont bring in other creeps you climbers are intolerable of any one else's concerns
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Lawny
Trad climber
Arvada, CO
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I love all the accusations that all climbers are dirtbag as#@&%es. Pitbull your ranting just shows the elitist attitude of Eldo residents, oops am I grouping all residents together like you are doing to climbers. I don't care either way if the hostel happens or not. Also Mr. Pitbull, did you just sign up for an account under a anonymous name to bitch on this thread? Also where did you move from to pay high dollar to live in Eldo cause I assume you aren't from there.
John Klooster
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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If you do not live here or even climb here on a regular basis(3 times/month)you cannot begin to understand the impacts the residents already face from the many park visitors(busiest in the state)and the swimming pool.Sometimes it is overwhelming but at nite they go home and we receive a brief respite from the mayhem.
Umm...you made the choice to live at the entrance to a STATE PARK.
EDIT: Close Eldo and the pool. Your neighborhood would be much more pleasant for the residents.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Gosh, let's see. . .
How many residents didn't realize the pool and the park
were in their community before they bought. . .
Another 20 climbers at night instead of the post office.
Oh, the inconvenience. . .
Gosh, I just might stay at the hostel so I don't have to drive
in from Denver.
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MX
Trad climber
Bellevue, WA
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Hello, my name is Mark Kroese, and I am the current President of the AAC. I want to assure everyone that we (the staff and board of the AAC), are reading and considering all of this input very carefully. We do not dismiss, or take any of it, lightly. We are committed to a transparent, inclusive process, too. I can assure you that we are considering all points of view, and take input from the community very seriously. As we formulate our plans, please understand that we are trying to strike the right balance between acting as advocates for the climbing community (the AAC mission) and the impacts to the existing Eldo community.
Thanks for reading.
Mark
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urschi
Mountain climber
CO
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I think having a climbers hostel in Eldo would be great!
Having 20 additional people around overnight will not make a big difference. It feels as if people living in Eldo have an elitist attitude and try to keep everybody away from their canyon (e.g. no pavement on road)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I support it.
Seems to me the 1 and only real issue here is parking. Doesn't seem like you've solved that, or even looked at it correctly yet. What is code, what is available, how many rooms sustainable, etc.
I'm not seeing 20 people as possible...
Seems like once you solve that, you'll have something more palatable (and real) to present to the locals. Right now, it seems you guys are wanking it, and the locals are freaking their sh#t over something half baked.
Doesn't seem like your best value, though. You'll never pay off a 1M loan...
1M seems cheaper than 14.7M for this place...
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_21357893/boulder-hostel-closes-amid-university-hill-property-sale
Why not a place on the road in, that could support some tent camping as well?
If I lived in a dark, narrow ditch for a few decades, would I turn into a pitbull?
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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FYI...The road thru the town of Eldo is privately owned by the Eldorado Springs water Company. They do as they see fit in regards to road maintenance. The state park merely has an easement and no maintenance rights. The locals have no say what so ever on the road.
On a lighter note it is interesting to hear the "whining" about the road being "bad". And You folks call yourselves climbers???!!Its all of about 1/4 mile of gravel that gets graded twice a year.A Porsche 911 can drive up it. Lord help ya if you ever have to go to Moses ,or many other climbing areas that are on dirt roads. If you whine about the road it does not seem like you are really a "climber". Does it? Please lets drop the road talk and focus on the debate about the proposed AAC hostel. Also I respectively ask that you put your real/legal name on your posts so that we can "all" take your comments seriously. This goes for both sides of the debate. Thanks ,Steve Sangdahl
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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There is plenty of parking in front of the post office,
that should not be an issue to anyone who has seen the layout.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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From Google Maps
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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They could squeeze a few more in that side yard or park up at the overflow pool parking. NBD.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's not how codes work...
A second look at that building makes me wonder about 20+ people, legal bedrooms, egress and fire code...
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Codes can change if you have the right lawyers.
In this town conservation takes a back seat to money & developers.
Just look what happened within the last 20 years on University Hill, North Boulder, etc.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I love the idea of a climber's hostel in Eldo. I'm always uncomfortable when climbers, known and unknown, can't find economical climber's accommodations in the Boulder. A hostel would go a long ways towards easing that need. I am concerned about the parking situation though. I hope the AAC, the town of Eldorado Springs and the country can come to an adequate agreement on that.
Thanks Phil and the AAC and thanks Christian and the Eldo locals who are providing input.
Mal
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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If the model for the hostel is the Tetons Ranch, then there will be need for parking for up to 20 cars. (rental cars from DIA, or else road-tripping visitors).
Climbing visitors will walk into the canyon from the hostel, so leaving their cars parked all day. This might be tricky (Eldo town parking is always tricky), though they can always park along the roadside to the east of any of the houses, it's pretty unlimited that direction.
But if the visitors will have cars (and at the Teton Ranch, that is pretty much always the case) then the location is not so critical; visiting climbers can drive into the park and park there during the day.
The world has changed since the 70s. No one hitchhikes any more. Rental cars are cheap. Through word of mouth and the internet, most visiting climbers can find a floor to sleep on in nearby Boulder with friends of friends for a short stay. That's how it's been for decades--no camping near here, but anyone who really wants to seems to find a way to visit and climb. So I'm not sure a hostel needs to be within walking distance of the park.
The location near the gas station out by the main road might work equally well. The landowners out there, just north of the gas station, have been (I think?) struggling to attract renters for many years. The office building across the road from the gas station was eventually demolished after no one rented it in decade or more.
Though Eldo itself has long been a destination resort kind of place, so all the noise and bustle and dogs and kids go with the territory, and when I first climbed there a major hazard was the rabid dogs and their drunken owners living in school busses parked just east of the Bastille. Occasional street parties and events I've been to, with sometimes many dozens of people, there's been parking. And a 20-person hostel is not THAT big!
But, whatever. Main point is that times change (and so does Eldorado) and I wonder if the walking-distance, hostel-style bunk-bed climbers' accommodation might not be as good an idea as it once would have been.
Crusher
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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Everyone calling eldo residents "elitist" is a bonehead. Fact is us eldo locals like the fact that eldo hasnt changed. It's the same small town it's always been. There are many children in town and hence the speed limit and dirt. If we pave the road people will drive fast putting little kids in danger. Well spoken words Steve S. I hope the AAC does the right thing and does not build the hostel.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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^^^Eldo has changed considerably, you must be new in town if you think it hasn't changed.
I've renovated 20 different homes in that canyon and all of the new owners were multi millionaires buying out hippies that bought in the '70s, '80s and '90s.
I drive slow when I go through there but you decided to live in an entrance to a state park with limited access so you better deal with the consequences. Spare us the save the children attitude.
Teach your kids to look both ways or run faster.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Rental cars are cheap... Yes, exactly, and they'll need them. There's more to climbing here than Eldo. They're going to go to Pearl, Southern Sun and the Hill, too.
A couple other things about the Ranch - it's a place to find partners, have social gatherings, etc. People come and go 24/7.
This Post Office thing sounds like an endless rathole. It's going to be a super expensive and lengthy process for a little nugget of nothing in a congested hippie commune. Seems like that kind of money and hassle could do a whole lot more good just a couple miles away.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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wow, I would expect this kind of nimbyism in Greenwich or Edina
if the townies really want to pull the drawbridge, just buy the f*#king lot and make it a park or whatever
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Hi Mark
Thanks for your post and your promise of transparency. I am both a climber and an Eldo homeowner.
Please can you share the AAC transportation study ?
Please can you describe how you plan to accommodate parking for 20 guests, employees, and post office patrons?
I encourage all involved to look at the google view of the building in conjunction with the survey on the Boulder County Land Use web site LS-11-0156, sorry I could not paste it on to here.
The building sits on the property line on both the east and south sides. The north side abuts the road, there is a few feet of space between the west side of the building and the neighboring residential lot. There is very limited space for any outside enjoyment without encroaching on the residential lots to the west, east and north of the building. Yes it's a rat hole if you look closely at the lot lines.
Is there any consideration for the school bus turn around spot in front of the post office which has served as many as 30 valley and town kids for over 30 years ? I asked Phil Powers but he's not answered my email.
The post office has a lease until 2017, that's cuts into you lodging space, so you will be cramming 20 guests plus on site management into less than 4,000 sq ft for at least a million dollars before maintenance costs.
So a crammed building on a crammed lot in a crammed town. Please reconsider your proposal.
Thanks! Janet Robinson
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storminjoe
Trad climber
Westminster
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Honestly, my perception is that early on this situation could have been worked out, but it appears that due to the letter and other actions the locals are entrenched. This is going to be a hard one to work out now. Way to get this off the ground AAC. I have a stake here as I climb in the canyon on a regular basis and would rather not have the locals pissed off at me every time I drive through the town. The reception is already less than friendly and I would rather not have it cool further. This also somewhat confirms my apprehension on being a member of the AAC. I haven't had confidence in the the organizations ability to handle its business and operate in a way that doesn't seem entitled and elitist. Apprehension confirmed. The AAC has no idea how to deal with average communities, climbing or not.
I can say this, and policy and grassroots organizing are my area of work, that if someone in my organization broke ranks and message like Burris, they would be gone before the day was over. Period. That might be a good first step in starting to repair the situation. Next hear the locals concerns and develop a plan that actively addresses the main concerns. Address the parking issue as that seems to be the real hangup. Here is a suggestion, hold the right to the parking spaces, but offer the unused spaces to the locals after say, 6:00 p.m. Last, the AAC's reputation is horrible. Its time to bring in someone to help the organization internally understand your place, develop a P.R. strategy and develop a culture that is competent, strategic and relevant to the times. Strategy going forward: Do no more damage to the organizations reputation and do not leave the situation in Eldo worse than when you found it.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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I would guess that nearly all property owners in Eldorado Canyon are enjoying their properties due to being grandfathered into existing code or because of variances to existing code. Perhaps a re-visit to the flood plain map is in order...
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Phew,
What a pissing match......
Have any (well I know a few have) of the people bitching on here ever been to the Climbers Ranch in the Tetons ??
I've been a few times, read, a few times, and even with a 6 year old and have found the place to be dead quiet after 9pm.......
I spent 2.5 month sport climbing in Tonsai Thailand, and only once went to the beach to party......New Years Eve....
Other than that most visiting climbers are there to climb, climb, climb.....
America is so backwards when it comes to access for climbers it's sad.
Yes "Eldo" is full of well, well off folks that don't climb and folks that well climb really freakin hard.....
Build it and they will come.......
And most will see it's no big deal, and yea I'd much rather hang down at a crowded "hostel" with a six pack and talk sh#t and beta with a bunch of like mined folks than go to a wine tasting at a snotty nosed new home owner....
I say this all from looking down on Eldorado Springs for 15 years of climbing from above, on the rocks, and having driven that potholed hell of a road...
Watching the McMansion sprout up.....
Maybe out by the highway is better for the residence.....
But man when you stay at the climbers ranch in the Tetons and wake up the the views there......
Damn.......
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Janet Robinson
climber
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A petition signed by 100 plus residents of Eldorado Springs was sent to the AAC, here's their response, check out how they sign off, it's classic.
Penn Burris Reponse to Petition
From: Penn Burris <pburris@americanalpineclub.org>
To: AAC Eldorado Springs Petition <aac.eldoradosprings.petition@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, May 28, 2013 at 4:56 PM
Good afternoon-
This is to acknowledge receipt of the email below and the attached "petition". I have circulated this to the Executive Committee of the American Alpine Club and will provide this to our attorneys as well.
It is truly disappointing that such questionable ethics and situational motives has been able to create so much community drama through the peddling of knowingly false information, inflammatory statements and blatant lies. The attached petition, while seemingly "signed" by so many "concerned" citizens, is purely the result of concentrated efforts to promote a self-serving, alternate agenda...as such it is barely worth the paper it is written on and certainly is incapable of capturing any real sense of the community.
The American Alpine Club and myself, personally, have been thoughtful, respectful and transparent in every step of the process. I have honestly answered every question posed (only to have those very emails selectively edited and circulated in an effort to mislead), appeared before the Eldorado Springs Community Association and attended the sewer LID meeting as requested. Most importantly we had begun the process of a Site Plan Review with Boulder County which the originators of this "petition" were fully aware of, yet attempted to conceal from the community. All of these things were done in an effort to be a good (new) neighbor, NOT because they are legally required, as we look to repurpose a neglected building that has been used commercially for more than forty years.
While we respect the opinions and ideas of others, this shallow attempt to bully a small non-profit organization, with nothing but good intentions and clearly serving the needs of others, has left us very much undeterred in our mission and plans.
Shame on you.
L. Penn Burris
Director of Operations/CFO
The American Alpine Club
Petition
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Seems a reasonable response...
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noriko nakagawa
Trad climber
eldorado springs co
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As another Eldo resident, I completely agree with Steve S. Summers are the most miserable time of year when our quiet town is overrun with pool visitors and overflow from the park. The hostel is an ill-conceived idea given other less impactful locations close by. Good thing I renewed my AAC membership.
-Michelle
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Mark Donovan 27 Eldorado Springs Dr.
Social climber
Eldorado Springs CO
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I'm an Eldo resident and homeowner 2 doors down from the proposed AAC Lodge. I've worked with my wife and others to inform the Eldorado Springs community about the proposed purchase as we felt it to be largely under the radar. We also held a gathering at our house and invited Phil Powers to discuss and hear out the Eldorado Springs community on this. We've been fair and we've tried to understand the positives.
We are you. We have jobs, children, stress, dreams. While in Eldorado Springs, we all, home owners and renters have spent considerable effort in resurrecting cabins and other forgotten structures, building our lives where we can enjoy this beautiful area of the world, resident or visitor. There's book clubs, spontaneous dinners and parties, music and celebration. There are many families and children. We respect Eldorado Springs, as we've spent the energy maintaining it's character, working together on zoning issues, rethinking the dirt road to make it more conducive to pedestrians and cars, cleaned up litter biannually that visitors seem to casually leave. We respect our wildlife, neighbors and visitors. I have a couple questions I'd like to pose in hopes it will generate some constructive comments. I'd like to read reasons why it would be a "good thing" to build a Lodge in Eldorado Springs.
1. Who out there is going to tell me that putting a Lodge smack down in the middle of a neighborhood will benefit the surrounding homeowners?
Who out there would want a lodge next to their house, feet from their house, regardless of affiliation? Please give reasons why.
2. Because the proposed is estimated at bringing in 700+ individuals annually, can the AAC guarantee my children's safety?
With 700+ transient individuals potentially being "my neighbor", shouldn't I be concerned? Again, regardless of affiliation.
3. There isn't enough parking to house 22 individuals, just juggling the shifting of cars between stays will spill into our parking areas and the major highway which it abuts.
4. Shouldn't I feel somewhat concerned about the overall management of the AAC? Seems like more entitlement and poor judgement being funded by the climbing enthusiast's dollars.
I will post the Penn Burris letter for review as well as our current information soon.
I can continue but I'd like to rather discuss this with you, the climbers, who is so far within the confines of this forum haven't contributed thought or reason that justifies the AAC having a Lodge in Eldorado Springs CO. I will be available this whole weekend to come by and discuss the benefits.
I see the AAC as many very financially powerful individuals who run a club that allow you, the climbing enthusiast to contribute your money so that the AAC can muscle their will to any area they wish without consideration of the individuals who made it. I have not felt one contributing thought from AAC management that justifies building a Lodge in a neighborhood. As spoken from Phil Powers, "The Lodge will only benefit the AAC members", I'm not here for Eldorado Springs, I'm here for the members. The only entitlement I see, is that on the part of the AAC, not the residents of Eldorado Springs.
AAC Board members, please find another area conducive and consistent with other AAC Lodges to build for the Boulder area.
Mark Donovan
27 Eldorado Springs Dr
80025
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Wow what a whanker-fest. Clearly most of you know nothing of the history of Eldorado Springs.
It has in it's past been a major resort destination. Presidents and Royal families went there. It was so popular that there was train service from Denver. There was even a couple of luxury hotels there. The town has also been destroyed repeatedly by fire and flood. The little bedroom community is there because of the remarkable canyon at the end of the road not the other way around. Old man Fowler would have sold the whole place to a gravel concession had it not been for the State making it a State Park. I wonder how the "locals" would relish an endless procession of gravel trucks blazing past the slow children playing in their sleepy little hamlet??? Chances are good that the nouveau riche residents now upgrading their million dollar shanties would not be complaining about a climber's hostel. No they wouldn't be living there at all. Their property wouldn't be worth the crumbled foundations and rotted wood their dream shacks are made of.
It is the Canyon and it's State Park status that gives little Eldorado Springs it's reason d'etre. Without the recreational opportunities available at the end of the road, of which "climbing" is preeminent, Eldorado Springs would be an insignificant run down rat hole, a ghost town. As it is now that the new sewage system is in locals are enjoying a surge in real estate values. No body wants to see the riff raff ramblin when they are sittin in the cat bird seat. It is funny to realize that a couple of the loudest protesters are the same folks who broke all the rules when it served their ends. Now that they have theirs they want to keep it like it's always been. Yeah Right!
I say bulldoze the crap out of it and the horse stable next to it and build a climber's hostel/cafe/community center. Build it "Clean" and "Green" as a showcase of sustainability. You could even build it atop it's own covered parking. If I as a private citizen had the resources to do it I could walk right in and do it. I wouldn't need permission. It is "private property" after all and as long as I followed the rules I wouldn't even have to ask the "locals" how they liked it. Be glad you have an organization like the A.A.C. at the fore in this overdue idea. They will at least listen to locals concerns. Unlike some of the more recently arrived affluencia who impact the roads and families building their architectural abominations with out regard to neighbors sensibilities.
Here is a great video on a little Eldo history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkBRMtSDE7A
Those of you who want to keep it like it was should start building two more swimming pools a dance hall and ice skating rink. Chop chop we are waiting.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Here is a great video on a little Eldo history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkBRMtSDE7A
https://www.eldoradosprings.com/coney-island-of-the-west
Eldorado Resort History
Described by many as the "Coney Island of the West," Eldorado Springs Resort was first opened for business on July 4, 1905. Originally named Moffat Lakes Resort it was owned by, among others, Frank Fowler, step father of noted author Gene Fowler ("Good Night Sweet Prince" and "Timber Line"). Even though the resort went through many organizational changes during the following 78 years, it was always owned in part by the Fowler family until 1983.
The early visitors to the resort came by train or horseback, with the Colorado and Southern Railroad operating eight trips per day during the summer season. So popular was the resort that two additional swimming pools were added, one in 1905 and the present pool in 1906. At that time it was advertised as the largest swimming pool in the country.
In 1908 the grand "Eldorado Hotel" opened for guests, with the finest room in the house renting for $2.50 per night. Those not able to stay in the hotel had choices of accommodations ranging from tents to dormitories or private cottages.
The most famous cottage guests were Dwight and Mamie Eisenhower, who honeymooned in the cabin just east of the hotel. The resort's popularity flourished during the 1910's and 1920's, and the hotel guest list read like a "Who's Who in America." Guests included heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey, actor Douglas Fairbanks, actress Mary Pickford and it is told that W.C. Fields even drank some spring water.
One of the reasons people came was to watch renowned dare-devil Ivy Baldwin walk across the canyon on a tight-rope suspended 582 feet above the ground. Ivy Baldwin may best be remembered as one of America's first hot air balloonists, but in Eldorado Springs he is remembered for his 86 trips across the high wire. His first trip was on July 4, 1906 and his last was in 1948 at the age of 82.
Many of the other guests entertained themselves at one of the dancing pavilions, playing carnival games on the Midway, roller-skating, fishing or just plain relaxing. Attendance exceeded 60,000 visitors during the summers--it was truly the place to be.
In 1927, a group of businessmen headed by Fred Bonfils (owner of the Denver Post) bought controlling interest in the resort. This group of speculators had contrived an elaborate scheme to "hold-up" the Denver Water Board for hundreds of thousands of dollars. They had intended on putting a dam in the canyon, selling lake-side lots and coercing the Water Board into buying the dam. Fortunately, they were besieged with disaster: two devastating fires and the 100 year flood wiped out their resolve and the proposed dam. In 1938, Frank Fowler's son Jack gained outright ownership by buying out the Bonfils group.
During the 1940's good times returned to the resort under the guidance of Jack Fowler. Jack's dream was to distribute the water for consumption on a national basis. He began bottling the water in 1942 in two, four, six and ten quart size packages. Prior to that, the water had only been available at the self-service location. Although Jack Fowler was ahead of the U.S. marketplace, he began the tradition which continues today. In 1958, he began selling the water in two-and-a-half gallon bag-in-a-box containers. Marketing efforts were crude and localized but by the early 1960's operations required three employees and volume was 20,000 units.
When Jack Fowler retired his son Bill took over management of the resort. He operated the resort through the 1970's, which were not the best of times for Eldorado Springs. His plans centered around real-estate development. However, Boulder County was not interested in development and restricted his ability to build and sell homes and lots. Finally in 1978, the State of Colorado purchased over 400 acres from the resort, thereby establishing Eldorado Canyon State Park. By 1983 Bill Fowler was ready to retire and for the first time since 1905 the resort became owned by someone other than the Fowler family, after the three founding partners of Eldorado Artesian Springs, Inc. acquired the resort and its water rights.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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seriously, eldo residents who are pissed off about a climbers' ranch should just buy the property from AAC or whomever. Call it Inclusive Park or Diversity Park and commission an artist to paint a mural depicting images of community and diversity.
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spectreman
Trad climber
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I've climbed regularly in Eldo for over 30 years and consider myself an "almost local". I would be in favor of a well done climber hostel.
Seems really crazy to buy a home in that town and then complain about the pool and the climber traffic going through on the dirt road. What, you didn't know about those things when you bought your property? And on any given Sunday throughout the summer, the park is full of picnickers and hikers and all sorts of other riff raff. A few climbers at a hostel would be an insignificant addition to the already busy road.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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+1 philo, bulldoze that rat hole.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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As usual Phil, you've done your homework and brought some perspective to an argument that is wallowing in reactionary short term thinking.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Many of the other guests entertained themselves at one of the dancing pavilions, playing carnival games on the Midway, roller-skating, fishing or just plain relaxing. Attendance exceeded 60,000 visitors during the summers--it was truly the place to be.
Attendance exceeded 60,000 visitors during the summers--
Is that more or less than 20? New math always vexes me.
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Deekaid
climber
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Some good points on both sides. I have "no dog in the fight" except maybe climbing there someday so just an observation. It does seem like stuffing 10 lbs. of sh#t in a 5 lbs. sack, especially if there are other options a reasonable distance away.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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why do you "climbers" like to automatically react like you are oppressed and denied rights to mount hards rocks. no one is denying any climbing access you can all day everyday. The park and Eldorado Springs are not the same. Please respect the locals and the people that live on the road. Having you lovely climbers sleeping here will maximize the sewer capacity and the financial burden will be placed on the reisdents. Also many people have lived here prior to the State Park.
If you cannot be nice then stay away. You trolls are just making "climbers" look like insensitive entitled jerks. Why do you want a hostel in a town surrounded by elitist locals? Go somewhere else NO AAC FOR ME
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Philo face that was a long time ago. the area outside the park is a residential neighborhood with SEASONAL FACILITIES please why be somewhere you are not wanted after dark. there is not enough room we paid for our homes and private property leave us alone go away AT THE end of the day SCRAM
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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I would like to know how the AAC is addressing the parking issue. Of everything I've read that is one of the valid concerns.
Phil brings up excellent points. To complain about the traffic in the summer is ridiculous. If you are a resident there you bought into that traffic. It came with your land. It's because of the park ES exists.
I appreciate the reasonable discourse from those affected. however, I'd have to say you all might need to regroup a bit.
First, if the accusations in the letter from Penn Burris are true then it clearly shows you are on thin ice already and MSU only continues to undermine your stance. And yes... I agree with Todd E - if true that's a very reasonable response.
Second, you might want to find a way to get the pitbulls of your side to STFU because thinly veiled threats are exactly what this discussion does not need. (S)He's doing you no favors and once again only undermines your stance.
worth repeating:
remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
All that said at the moment I cannot say if I'm for or against the hostel.
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steve shea
climber
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NIMBY = low life form. I feel the pain of the homeowners. But you knew before you bought. The popularity of climbing, the canyon, and the water is an attraction. Possibly helpful in maintaining higher property values. Here in Jackson residents near the airport tried to shut down runways, institute noise restraints and operational hours because the quality of life was plummeting. And then there was the property value issue. The air strip has been there since the 40's. Jackson became popular with tourists, some stayed. The town grew and property values rose. The sense of entitlement lies not with the AAC but the residents. Just because you are there now, all that has happened before and all change must be ignored? Welcome to a tourist area! You knew before you bought. I suppose Jackson has gone to hell in a hand basket but it is still a nice place to live, just different. Given how the AAC operates Climber's Ranch here, I do not think you have much to worry about.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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I have been going to Eldo since my family moved to Morrison Co in 1966. I started climbing there in the early to mid seventies when Ivy's wire was still in it's place hung in space. I have seen a lot come and go through Eldo over the decades. The State Park status has brought many changes and enhancements to the canyon experience. This has helped considerably reduce human impact on a sensitive resource and though many "locals" at first complained that it altered the essence of Eldo it has for the most part been for the greater good. A well maintained and managed "Climber's Lodge" could be similarly beneficial. Particularly if it could also serve as a meeting place where travelers from all over the country and the world could meet locals directly. What a better way for them to learn that "locals" don't like their parking infringed, their dogs run over or their children pedophiled.
Who knew?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Y'all should just learn to pick yer battles. This one is lost from the get-go.
No way a bunch of dirtbags, no matter how well they clean up, is gonna
prevail against tax-payin' suburbanites who can muster a lot more voter
firepower. It is just absurd to even consider putting that thing in a
residential area. As somebody with considerable experience in the zoning
wars all I have to say is BANZAI!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Looks like Hank and Larry's old place is for sale, too.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/39-41-Chesebro-Way-Boulder-CO-80025/2112260885_zpid/
Holy cow, what an over-valued shithole!
Let's get real here.
Seem there are more than a couple other 1M options within 2-3 mins, all with WAY more land, a few with commercial neighbors.
After the average climber makes a couple visits to downtown destinations, the Flatirons, a few trips up Bocan, maybe a run to RMNP - their final odometer reading will be exactly the same.
I'd rather be closer to Pearl than Eldo at night, myself.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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With what JLP says in mind, I'd be curious as to the other options the AAC has explored.
I'm glad I live in Boulder. The absolute worse part about living here is the lack of reasonable camping for reasonable access to climbing. A climbers ranch really is needed... somewhere.
I'm curious why the AAC is looking at ES and if it looked elsewhere?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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But JLP we can't have 20 more parasite climber pedophiles on Pearl Street at night can we?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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22 more Nag Champa burning dirtbags. Certainly that violates some sort of Boulder City ordinance.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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For the record I think Penn Burris' letter was spot on.
My spidey senses tell me that some disgruntled "local" had other plans for said property and has been rabidly twisting peoples lycra till they prance.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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cute smowass mount some more hard rock watch out for nails in your rocks and tires
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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LOL pitbull. Eldo vigilante!
At least we know what bike belongs to you
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Pitbull, I am sorry to see this thread degenerate into an unproductive squabble.
For you to say that philo would not be welcome in Eldo after dark is highly presumptuous on your part. You might actually like him not to be there in the daytime also.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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^^^ LOL, that might be why he likes things like the road the way they are.
And LOL out loud Toker Villian.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Shame on you.
L. Penn Burris
Hey L. Penn, shaming the folks that you need to work with doesn't seem like a very constructive attitude.
As a homeowner in the city of Boulder, I can empathize with the homeowners in Eldo Springs. The cost of property is very high out there, and those folks paid it to get a certain way of life . . a way of life that will likely not be supported by an AAC Eldorado Climbers' hostel. The comparison to the Teton Climbers' Ranch is a poor one, as it is located in a national park where the feds have appropriately limited development, with the consequence that there is a lot of open space that surrounds the Climbers' Ranch. There is no permanent neighborhood adjacent to the Teton Climbers' Ranch, as there would be to the proposed AAC Eldo hostel. If the AAC tried to come in and make one of the houses adjacent to mine in the city a climbers' hostel, I would vehemently object. If you want to call that a NIMBY attitude, so be it.
Viewing Eldo Springs from Google may be misleading as to the available space and the lay of the land. It is in fact a crowded little town that sees a lot of traffic because of the Park and the pool. Also, redeveloping the post office may involve issues around the risk of flood, which will complicate the whole process.
I cannot imagine that this is the best option for the AAC if they really are determined to create a climbers' hostel close to Eldo. The Eldorado Springs road on the way to the canyon has much more in terms of available space to locate such a development without treading on the rights of the locals. While I support the general goal in this case of the AAC, with such strong objections on the part of the locals, it will be doomed to failure.
Brad White
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Eldo is not populated by elitists. That title is reserved for some/many in Boulder.
I would go more with the term "idealists" for some of the Eldo residents.
Would it not be great if the pool and most of the visitors to the state park went away? Sure it would for the few that live there. Property values would skyrocket and the Boulder elitists would move in and erect giant eco friendly structures.
Vegan ( disabled ) shelter pets could roam freely without the threat of being run over by the hoards of inconsiderate visitors. Also, my kids Chrysanthemum and Divya can run freely and not be in fear of Philo.
#Merica
#trollinforaprancer
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Reading the complete article in the Boulder Weekly, and Phil Power's very thoughtful comments, I am wondering why the AAC would invest in the property, knowing full well that the hostel might never occur, due to the multiple obstacles that may keep it from happening. I mention the risk of flood not from the perspective of the neighbors, but rather from the perspective of the AAC investing in a very expensive piece of property.
If they truly are buying the property for a climbers' hostel, isn't that a very risky investment for a small non-profit??
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Eldo homeowners: pass some zoning laws, people.
AAC: mandatory editor for Penn!
The idea that it's the AAC being "elitist" here is absurd. How is trying to provide low-cost accomodations for climbers of little means "elitist"? I would place this one in the scrap pile under the no-good-deed-goes-unpunished file. And, do better homework next time.
David Stevenson
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I am wondering why the AAC would invest in the property, knowing full well that the hostel might never occur They obviously don't know anything. It's just under contract while they talk to people.
IMO, the best option would have been to STFU about it until they had a working plan for the more basic and obvious concerns - like parking and how to legally cram 20 people into a tiny cinderblock rathole - maybe even how to pay for it. I think if they had done this, fewer people would be freaking out.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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I have seen a lot come and go through Eldo over the decades. The State Park status has brought many changes and enhancements to the canyon experience. This has helped considerably reduce human impact on a sensitive resource and though many "locals" at first complained that it altered the essence of Eldo it has for the most part been for the greater good.
Phil, there are two different parts to your post. One is the canyon experience, and I agree with the fact that it has been well managed. The locals aren't concerned about the canyon experience. They are concerned about how the climbers' hostel would impact their little town.
I respectfully challenge you :-) to name any relatively recent changes and/or enhancements that the State Park has made within the Park that has benefitted Eldorado Springs.
Steve, I don't know that you can compare the changes made to the Jackson Airport over the years, that has been at that location since the 40's (as you note) , to the addition of a (not-previously-exisiting) climbers' hostel to Eldorado Springs. Your post seems to be based on the fact that the Jackson Airport was previously existing, and I don't get your point. Also, the scale of tourism in Jackson makes it a poor comparison to sleepy little Eldo Springs.
Brad White
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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They should have just turned the place into a quarry...
... those darned climbers are always stirring up trouble!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I think this is a great idea by the AAC. Eldorado Canyon does not belong to the homeowners there, just like Yosemite or Red Rocks Canyon are public not private property. To have lodging for traveling climbers is a great idea, and of course you will always have the naysayers who are looking to discourage any visitors to their little corner, and will come up with any number of reasons why we all should stay away.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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I can say this, and policy and grassroots organizing are my area of work, that if someone in my organization broke ranks and message like Burris, they would be gone before the day was over. Period.
totally agree with you. why is the aac keepin the dude?
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steve shea
climber
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No. Brad calm down. Eldo and the attendant attractions it offers prexisted the current residential concerns. As Phil points out it has been historically a tourist area. My first ever rock climb was on the west side of the Bastille in 1967. We hung out there a lot during my DU days. I lived in Boulder for a while after school and I can tell you by any definition it is an attraction. You can classify tourist by local or not but most of the people visiting do not live in Eldo.
I was a NIMBY. Then I came to my senses and realized I do not live in a pristine area. When I accepted change I got used to it pretty quickly. My story would make you weep. I lost money and privacy. But humans are pretty adaptible. you'll get used to it. BTW my note on Climber's Ranch was never meant to be a comparison. Only that they run a very good operation. There may be better locations for the AAC, I do not know I have'nt been in Boulder in years. Eldo, the village of, was like living in a sardine can then. 20 climbers a night for a few months a year can't add too much pressure.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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the town of eldorado springs is ALL private property except the post office which all residents are current tenants we pay for our po boxes and 2 other locals have businesses there. One of them is a climber who makes climbing clothes made in usa! Please support local business and community. The state park and eldorado springs are not the same place .he town is mainly private property. How boring to have to be quiet after 10:00 when on vacation. Wouldn't you rather support the local restaurants and bars in Boulder? Not tomention the music scene has a lot to offer. A cab from Eldo to town is over 20 bucks. The cops patrol the road from South Broadway to CU all the time for dui's.
So the town is not public property at all and residents have enough tourists getting lost and trying to find their way back to the park. We pay over 200 dollars a quarter per person to operate the sewer. The AAC strolls in as a non-profit getting many tax write offs for being a non-profit while we all pay a lot of taxes and there is not even a school bus sign or slow down before dirt road.
Have you ever known a pedestrian to be killed by a car? I lost a friend this winter killed by a car only going 25, she died right in front of her husband on the road of massive internal bleeding. To make fun of pedestrian safety is appalling. DO you know the cops and fire dept were looking for Jessica Ridgeway last fall in Eldo okay parents think about it!
Do you know there was a hit and run by the South Mesa trailhead last spring and the driver never found. Do you know the cops are always sitting at the trailheads because of thieves breaking into cars while hiking. Do you know a woman was sexually assaulted by gunpoint on Highway 93 less than a mile from Eldorado Corner Market while waiting for help from a broken down car.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Perhaps some would gain perspective if we look beyond our national boundaries to say, the alps of europe where accommodations are quite common for hikers and climbers along their way. Just last week here on Supertopo, we had the announcement, by the owners no less, of a climbers boarding house near Fontainebleau, right in the nearby village, La Chapelle La Reine.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2167099&msg=2167177#msg2167177
Mixed use planning is usually a good thing and has been a standard throughout the rest of the world. The confluence of a variety of human activity is usually productive and colorful. The alternatives of bedroom communities with no other amenities but beds and yards, have long since been found out to be wasteful and, frankly, disparaging especially for youth.
But then again, no good deed goes unpunished.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i wasn't much following this.
but the articles and the many, many posts from residents opposed to the hostel have helped me come to support it. most of the opposition here comes off as pretty un-attractive nimbyism. you bought houses in an old frickin resort town on the edge of a state park that is one of the big destinations for tourists, hikers and climbers in an area with explosive population growth (to which you've all contributed). now you're shocked and unhappy that tourists, hikers and climbers are coming to the area and now a couple dozen of them may be there at night in season.
i'm guessing that pitbull and co may help to really generate more support for the aac.
go phil. i hope this works out. it's a frickin scandal that one of the most historic and important climbing destinations in north america has no base for visiting climbers. practically every tiny, picturesque village in any destination valley in the alps has b&b or hostels or huts. and no offense to eldo residents, but i don't see the culture of say, selva, as failing to live up to your standards.
i guess cg isn't going to friend me on fb now.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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why are you so pro development? why do want to stay and pay for a place where you are not welcome? do you think climbing is the only redeemable quality to Eldorado Springs? climbing is not the only use of this area.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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usa is not europe we will never be as provencal as europe keep dreaming. do you really think the visitors are going to fabulous climbers from the ALPs. They may have these accomodations in Europe but America is completely different. please there is no room
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Lawny
Trad climber
Arvada, CO
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Pitbull, who are you? No real name so you can hide after your hollow threats. A real name would help your credibility, and once again I ask, where did you move to Eldo from?
John Klooster
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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who are you?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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It's reminding me of the auto salvage guy at the hairpin turn at the gunks. Tourist attraction visited by people from all over the world, and this guy parks hundreds of junk cars on his property to sell for parts. They need to clear out some of those trailers in Eldo and make some room for people to park.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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I am not trying to be credible with any of you. Initially, it was not about climbers buying the post office it was just the amount of peole. The character assasignation began with Penn Burris, CFO, of AAC. It does not matter if Jesus and his disciples bought the Post office it is not a place for lodging. the climbers on this forum have made it personal. Please if it was a golf club or church we were opposing you would be right behind us.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Don Paul that is all private property. It is not parking space. How about I will let you park at my house for a fee? you wanna pay? the park and the town are not the same
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Peter makes an excellent point about mixed use, (although I would suggest the European model for use of space in the mountains is not something to aspire to) which is why I agree in principle to an Eldo climbers' hostel. Even though Eldorado Springs may be ideal from one point of view, it just doesn't make sense in a place where the obstacles to do so are overwhelming; local resistance being the most significant obstacle. I'm sure such a place could be found in the city of Boulder, where everyone would be happy, and the traveling climber would actually be closer to a great variety of climbing. With Eldo being my spiritual home as a climber, I would love to see a place where climbers camp and hang out together, swilling beer and sharing experiences at the entrance to the canyon. But not an the expense of the wishes of the local residents.
Steve, I don't live in Eldo Springs. And I think if you saw the town today, you would see that the town of Eldo Springs has really not been a tourist destination of any significance since at least the invention of camming devices. There have been a few failed attempts of businesses trying to tap into whatever tourism potential exists, but I can't remember any that have survived.
I lived in Jackson before United Airlines started flying skiers direct from Chicago in the early 80's, and there is a direct, economic, tourist-based relationship between those kind of changes and the general well-being of Jackson and the valley as it stands today. No such relationship exists between the well-being of Eldo Springs and the kind of "tourism" that you described seeing in the late 60's.
Can anyone suggest a direct benefit that the town of Eldo Springs reaps from having the climbers' hostel located there? You gotta imagine that any homeowner there would be asking that question.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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usa is not europe we will never be as provencal as europe keep dreaming. do you really think the visitors are going to fabulous climbers from the ALPs. They may have these accomodations in Europe but America is completely different. please there is no room
you seem pretty provincial to me.
heh
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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I would suggest the European model for use of space in the mountains is not something to aspire to
actually, in an increasing number of contexts, i think that some of the european models for mixed use are far better than our sand are exactly what we should be thinking about.
europeans have done a far better job that we have of dealing with populations living in and adjacent to mountains. we've done a better job of keeping human populations out. but that's not the situation here in eldo.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Thank you for your support. I agree downtown would be much better suited for the hostel and it would bring support to local business in downtown Boulder. There is zero benefit to the residents of Eldo. The location and scope of the project are not in sync.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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What if they opened a bar and nightclub in conjunction with the hostel? Then the ES residents would have something to do after 10pm.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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cute snowass
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Private property and the six-shooter lie at the very foundation of western culture. Suggesting we be like Europe here is super naïve - it can only sit as an example of the differences.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Can anyone suggest a direct benefit that the town of Eldo Springs reaps from having the climbers' hostel located there? You gotta imagine that any homeowner there would be asking that question.
who cares? folks who bought a home in eldo springs bought a home in eldo springs. they didnt buy the canyon or the surround. the canyon is a state park with an international reputation, and it's located in what is becoming an entire megalopolitan corridor along the front range whose population growth has been driven in part by amenity migration with places like eldo being one of the amenities.
like it or now, the canyon and much of the surround are a public good. indeed, one of the prime reasons property in eldo springs is valuable is precisely because it borders public land.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Yes I see now a Climber's Lodge is a bad idea for Nimbytown Springs, but a few more trophy McMansions for East Coast investment bankers are da bomb.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Private property and the six-shooter lie at the very foundation of western culture. Suggesting we be like Europe here is super naïve - it can only sit as an example of the differences.
lol
that's the last argument you want to be making. actually, the alps have far more "private" property than do the rockies or the sierra where the majority of acreage is actually in government holdings. the very reason eldo springs property is valuable is because it's attached like a tick to the adjacent public land.
a strict "private property rights" argument here favors the aac. if i were you, i'd keep it holstered.
lol
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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who cares? So klk, that's a no if I understand you correctly, you can't suggest any benefit to Eldo Springs for having a climbers' hostel there.
Again, I don't live in Eldo Springs, and personally as a non-resident, I would love to see a hostel there. That way I could stop by on the days that I don't have a partner and get one on the spot. Have a good watering hole after a climb too, maybe meet some exotic traveling climbers. Cool!
But if you can't list one single good reason why a resident of Eldo Springs should want to have this hostel, you aren't exactly a mover and shaker in the discussion, are you?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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You only have one chance to make a first impression. In all fairness, the AAC didn't do a particularly good job -- and then made matters worse.
This has given fuel to the fire over what is really a pretty small proposal. This is a Hostel (not Hotel). The commentary from locals ranges from understandable to incendiary, but in all cases plays to people's worst fears and prejudices -- with threats and ad hominem thrown in for good measure.
Someone rhetorically asked how "I" (us climbers) would feel if our towns, neighborhoods, etc. were to be overrun with tourists (which hyperbolic comparison is flawed -- but, no matter).
As someone who actually lives in a town that is massively overrun with tourists -- on a scale thousands of time greater than in Eldorado Canyon -- I can sincerely state that the very small change being proposed is a tempest in a teapot (but, admittedly, your teapot).
Now I have to go, my daughter needs a ride to the beach.
RKV in Laguna Beach, CA
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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This thread is dipping too far into fuktardom. Most of the posts in this thread are of irrelevant fallacies and nonsense.
Fact: Boulder county will not issue a permit for anything that exceeds available parking.
Significant change of use will require consent of the neighbors. Doesn't seem like they'll get it.
AAC would likely be free to purchase the place and make a nice B&B - for about 6 people. Doesn't seem worth 1M.
Done, and over.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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I think you're right Sketchy, and to be honest, I hadn't even heard of the proposed hostel until I read it on ST this morning. I don't think it's been in the Boulder Daily Camera. One might conclude that the AAC was trying to keep it low key for now, and it just didn't turn out that way.
People can say what they want about Groovytown: sense of entitlement, weird kids' names, trustafarians, can't climb off-width . . whatever. But I've lived here 25 years and I can tell you that what is as true as any of that is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, perhaps more than other places. (If you don't believe me, check out the pathetic process by which our school board adopted a new calendar for the coming school year.)
If the residents truly don't want this hostel in Eldo Springs, it is highly unlikely that it will happen. Which is why I repeat: can anyone name a benefit to the town by having the hostel there?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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But if you can't list one single good reason why a resident of Eldo Springs should want to have this hostel, you aren't exactly a mover and shaker in the discussion, are you?
lol im not involved in this at all. havent been attending aac meetings. first i'd head of it was the dustup on fb.
the absence of perceived benefits for the residents of eldo springs doesn't matter. or perhaps it matters for helping outsiders to understand opposition to the hostel. but i don't have any trouble understanding why residents of eldo springs would oppose any kind of change like this. their opposition is entirely rational. selfish, but rational.
i don't know enough about the history of the community-aac conversations (which have apparently been going on for some time) or about the specifics of zoning ordinance in this particular county to comment knowledgeably on those issues.
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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I like you pitbull. Maybe we can get together sometime?
The AAC doesn't give a sh#t about eldo residents. I sent an email and was very disappointed with the AAC reply (at least they replied but basically said they were looking at all opinions before making a decision). IMO, it seems that they will do anything to get this hostel thing going. Anyways, never been an AAC member, never will. BTW I was born and raised in boulder and now I live in eldo. So all you armchair spraying talk big but I'd like to see you in our situation. Who wants to live next to a POS AAC hostel?
Come on AAC...just throw out this idea already.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Brad, the amazing bike path system in boulder could be said to have no intrinsic value to the home owners who's property abuts it. In fact scores of them protested the "land grab" and all the scary strangers using their back yards. But who's arguing now? Property along the bike path is in increasingly high demand because of it's intrinsic desirability. A well done Climber's Lodge in Eldo could have long term value to the community. A meeting place for locals and climbers from all over. A clearing house for current information. The opportunity to resurrect and improve a woefully dilapidated property. That alone helps improve the place for all. Tell me what is better for the hamlet of Eldorado Springs the current Arts Center with their kitschy wine and cheese parties or the red neck mechanic and Volvo graveyard that used to be in that location?
Who knows what the long term value may be.
Personally I miss the hippie cafe that used to be in the Post Office building. I don't miss the flies from the horse rental stable near by but the cafe was a nice place to go. Eldo Springs could use a little more homegrown commercial activity. Also a regular shuttle service from the town to the Park N Ride at 93 would be tremendous and could really help alleviate the stress of so many non resident cars.
Intrinsic is as intrinsic does Mama always said.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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klk, wbw, jp social, thank you for your intelligent contributions admittedly my comments were inmature at times but you are right the residents just found out about the proposed hostel May 7th even though the AAC has been under contract since Dec 2012. The AAC had a petition against them near the Gunx campground by residents who were in support of the campground. The Gunx residents just wanted some rules and size limits. Instead they were bashed by AAC and supporters and their concerns completely dismissed.
2 out of 3 places New River, Gunx, and Eldo have had concerns by residents. The 5 year plan was published in 2011 why are just hearing about it now? especially since the AAC executive staff member lives in Eldo. Seem like they were trying to keep it quiet from the residents. It is hard to listen to an organization be praised for community and great support...when they try to steamroll a small neighborhood and did it once before in the past 2 years
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Fact: Boulder county will not issue a permit for anything that exceeds available parking.
Not true, I was involved with the some of the financing for the development off Yarmouth and the condos that went in at the north end of 29th street mall. The city wants density over parking spaces and they will allow a permit if it suits their fancy. Money talks.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Don't you guys have senator that lives in Eldo?
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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Udall lives in washington
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steve shea
climber
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Goatboy is on the money. A variance is a convenient way to 'break the rule' Look, Teton Co. Wy has been the epicenter of NIMBYism in the Rockies. I've only been here for 36yrs but have seen the town go from 5000 inhabitants to well over 20K. Does not sound like much change does it? Well if you consider that only 2.5% of Teton co. land is available for private ownership one can easily see that living here now is crowded, very crowded. Not to much different than Maui only instead of being surrounded by water we are surrounded by BLM, Nat. Forest and Nat. Park. Yet to deny growth and sensible development is a fools errand. The solution as Peter suggested has been the town as heart of the communitiy and mixed use. It may not be the AAC but change is coming get used to it. No matter the reason. This is a classic NIMBY argument. Some will win some will lose. Unless you have extremely deep pockets to buy your 3 acre ranchette, you will have get used to hearing your neighbors fart. I'd like to see the Clmber's Hostel go in; personally I do not care about reasons.
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rich sims
Social climber
co
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I vote Yes!
I will never use it.
It will never personally benefit me.
I do not give a sh#t if the locals do not want it.
It is not their property.
It will benefit far more people than it will harm!
Another possible solution is turn the whole canyon into a park and scrape the garbage built after ,,,,,say 1915, 1925, 1935.
I get emails from climbers looking for Boulder area camping options every year.
This reminds me of when I lived in the mountains and the beach. That idiots from Denver, Zonnies go home, Tourist go home and leave your daughters.
You move to an entrance of a Park and if you want to be crowd free move to Simla or Boulevard.
This is as asinine as when a guy asked that I not build on the lot next door a week after he moved into a new home I had built.
I told him he could buy the lot from me and do as he pleased.
My mother as a teen stayed in Eldo when she spent summers on the ranch north of Colorado Springs. It was quite happening tourist place.
I want everyone who moved to Colorado after me, of course to go back to where they came from. Your mothers womb if needs be.
I want I want I want. Put crap in one hand and want in the other and tell me how it works out for you.
By the land or STFU
A heart felt Happy Fourth to both sides of this issue.
America the free unless its my back yard.
I hope both sides can find a win win situation but its not likely.
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Lawny
Trad climber
Arvada, CO
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This is wonderful, I got an email from our beloved pitbull...
Greetings from a Fellow SuperTopo Member!
This message has been sent from a fellow registered SuperTopo climbing member to you.
The message is:
bring it!
Sent by: pitbull <olivekinsey3@gmail.com>
Oh Olive. I just asked that you use your real name, bring it? really Grow the f*#k up. I work in Boulder if you would like to meet up and talk, or I could come to Eldo...after dusk of course.
John Klooster
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dam Rich... does that mean you won't come to Vedawoo sushifest if i don't go back to mother natures womb?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Hey JTD really the person works at the AAC headquarters in Golden.
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Crag Q
Trad climber
Louisville, Colorado
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First I've heard of this. That is an interesting use of that property. It has struggled to have any sustainable business there. It was the Naked Edge Mountaineering, a cafe and a clothing store for a while. Whoever owns that property must be excited to unload it. The mansion to the left I always thought would make a great restaurant or bed and breakfast.
On a purely selfish note, I am not in favor of this proposal. The residents are right that it will change the character of this tiny area and there are only a handful of parking spots. It does seem like the economics are against the AAC, so they must be working towards a higher goal.
However, I don't want to see more people in Eldo. I love to go there on a gorgeous spring day and only see a couple people climbing. I love riding there in the morning and only seeing a couple of people biking. I love going fishing there and catching small brown trout and being the only one fishing there. For the few who know what a quiet gem Eldorado is, it's unlikely they will be in favor of this proposal. I don't blame the residents of Eldo for fighting this on any grounds real or imaginary.
Twenty additional climbers in Eldo is actually quite a bit unless they are all on the Bastille crack like usual. The classics fill up quickly as it is and it is the last place in the world you want to climb under others due to the chossy nature of the rock. Many people who have not climbed there don't get that and are in for a harsh reality of what tricky 5.9 on run out gear is like.
If I didn't live nearby already I would have the complete opposite opinion of the proposal.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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This building has been for sale on and off for the last 4 years, there is a reason it has not sold,it is a minefield of land use, code, and location limitations.
Several potential buyers have walked away once they completed their due diligence.
For a million dollars the AAC is ok with a 4,248 sq ft structure on 8,580 sq ft lot, with a post office thrown in the middle.
Obviously parking has been the main reason buyers have run away.
This is in Boulder County which has a very conservative Land Use Department.
I called Boulder County land Use a couple of days ago, the AAC has met with Land Use but has not submitted the required and lengthy Special Use Review.
I believe the AAC has until July 12th to make a decision on whether to proceed.
To purchase a building in Eldorado Springs without any guarantee of development is unprecedented and certainly a risky financial undertaking.
Resale will be difficult and likely at a loss, however, anyone with inside knowledge could pick up a good deal in Eldo in a couple of years.
Could a guiding company be looking for a reduced priced spot in Eldo ?
Regardless of the motivation all should be asking for more transparency and information from the AAC regarding this issue.
Janet Robinson. Eldorado Springs Resident and Climber
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Big thanks to many posters, especially Janet Robinson and philo (Phil Broskovak) for eloquently stating two sides of the debate.
My own take:
1. A hostel is a great idea (around here, there is no other cheap lodging/camping)
2. The residents are not happy. The two complaints that seem important are that an extra 20+ people will bring the new, expensive sewer system to full capacity (but, jeez, was it really designed with so little spare capacity, how does it cope with big events at the arts center?)
3. Parking. Parking is and always has been difficult in Eldorado town. The hostel users will have to drive to the hostel, so they don't need to be within walking distance.
My conclusion is that a better location would be a bit farther away, like maybe near the main road/gas station/liquor store. Residents will have no real basis to complain. Win-win, all round. Of course there may be all kinds of reasons I'm utterly misinformed or plain wrong.
Over to Mark Kroese. Mark, upthread, you mentioned the word transparency. What are your thoughts, whether personal or representing the AAC official view? Help us out here, Mark.
Crusher Bartlett
Boulder
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well Janet Robinson I am glad you are concerned about the AAC's investment portfolio but in the spirit of transparency that you have asked for can I ask if you had your own plans to buy the Post Office Property?
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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I disagree with my friend Christian and think that a hostel in Eldorado is a very good idea . Some thoughts:
• The initial response by the AAC to the concerns of the community was bone headed. Phil Powers, the ED, handled this mistake by the organization very well by immediately apologizing and encouraging a more reasoned discussion. Well done, Phil.
• The hysterical reaction by some of the opponents is even less apppropriate than the AAC’s initial response. (although Pit Bull’s rant about climbers “driving like maniacs to get to your giant slabs of rock you are so eager to mount” was pretty good)
• The rhetoric regarding terrible adverse impacts seems exaggerated. No hotel has consistently 100% occupancy so we are talking about a handful of visiters staying overnight inside a building ( as opposed to a campground where sound can carry more easily) during the warmer parts of the year. Is this really the end of Eldo as we know it? I don’t think so.
• The solution to parking is to require the hostel to make sure it has enough parking for its visitors.
• I have stayed at the Teton Climbing Ranch and it is not luxurious, but well suited to its purpose: an inexpensive place for climbers to stay. Based on the sorts of people with whom I shared a large room with plywood bunk beds in the Tetons, it seems unlikely that the visiting climbers will terrorize the town at night like the gang in the Marlon Brando movie, “The Wild One”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGn_od9owp8
• The profit analysis is completely beside the point. The AAC is a non-profit so it is neither necessary nor desirable that this venture be profitable. I would rather the AAC (and its alleged financier, "the giant vampire squid") spend its money on this sort of project than almost any other, although the library is pretty good too.
I personally wish we could go back to the time in the 70’s and 80’s when you could camp next to the river in the canyon and Eldorado town was the place where old Volvos went to die. But times change and a modest proposal to allow a few visitors to stay overnight in the canyon is worthy of support, especially if reasonable steps are taken to mitigate parking and similar impacts on the residents.
Rick
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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There are problems, though Ricky. As usual you overlooked much.
What if the Giant Vampire Squid gets in the creek and works his way up to Eldo?
What if Phil Powers is actually a shape-shifter and is NOT The Kwisatz Haderach?
Where did anyone get the idea the entire population of Eldo were licensed Sanitary Engineers? Don’t make me crank of Photoshop, I am warning you,Ricky.
Was the little kerfuffle up on Denali with Jon and Conrad related to (3)????
All things tie off in the end.
Oh and very good post, thanks much. Leave it to a property expert to unfangle the whooz-ur-fathers to provide us with his view of the Empyrean.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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First , Rick, Phil Powers did NOT apologize for Penn Burris until CHRISTIAN GRIFFITH reached out to former and current board members (Mark Kroese..he is a very good guy) it took almost 2 weeks to even get a response from AAC. The only reason Phil Powers came to Eldo was because Christian strongly encouraged him to speak to the residents.
The initial response to Penn's letter was the Residents of Eldo will find out about the lodge thru press releases and county process.
The hostel would be much better served up the road on a bigger property like the Condarosa. Please it would be better for all!
Thanks to the the comment about leaving Eldo as is from someone in Louisville..it was spot on.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Sewer capacity the art center does not provide showers and cooking and laundry facilities to guests of party. The lodge would be 22 plus showering, laundry, and cooking. That is dofferent from office space or art studios.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I don't know how much they want for the Condarosa but that would be an awesome spot.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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It is hard to believe that they would go through all that time, hassle and money to update a sewage system that would be overwhelmed by your average bean fest.
Janet Robinson, paging Janet Robinson, Awaiting transparency.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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exactly the sewer costs is 5 years old and it has had problems from the get go. I am not a sewer specialist but information available from Boulder County sewer commitee has all the numbers. Basically the if the sewer exceeds 80% capacity the state of Colorado mandates an upgrade for more sewer space, which will cost over 100,000 grand and the cost of the upgrade will the responsibilty of the residents. The sewer cost over 16,000 per household ...plus 200.00 every quarter for operating expense.
Ramsey enviroment maintains the sewer and would more than likely get the job for the mandatory upgrade, of course Ramsey thinks the sewer has plenty of room. Also, say the hostek goes in and the sewer is operating at close to capacity and then a homeowner wants to remodel or add on more bathrooms....then the sewer would have to be upgraded because the hostel is using the remainder ..then the resident has to wait for the construction of upgrade to be done before doing any remodel to their homes and convince their neighbors to help pay for the 100,00 plus upgrade to add another 70 gallons of water for a residential bathroom....
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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So do the residents of ES restrict the number of friends that visit or stay over for a couple nights because they are afraid the sewer will assplode?
I think not. Seems like a weak argument to pursue.
Oh noes if 20 more people use the chitter we're all gonna die.
To reiterate, if you can't afford to live there, move out to Longmont.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Private property and the six-shooter lie at the very foundation of western culture. Suggesting we be like Europe here is super naïve - it can only sit as an example of the differences.
How true.
German Village Produces 321% More Energy Than It Needs
August 22, 2011 Filed under Environment, Europe, News Posted by Realnews24
It’s no surprise that the country that has kicked butt at the Solar Decathlon competition (to produce energy positive solar houses) year after year is the home to such a productive energy-efficient village. The village’s green initiative first started in 1997 when the village council decided that it should build new industries, keep initiatives local, bring in new revenue, and create no debt. Over the past 14 years, the community has equipped nine new community buildings with solar panels, built four biogas digesters (with a fifth in construction now) and installed seven windmills with two more on the way. In the village itself, 190 private households have solar panels while the district also benefits from three small hydro power plants, ecological flood control, and a natural waste water system.
All of these green systems means that despite only having a population of 2,600, Wildpoldsried produces 321 percent more energy than it needs – and it’s generating 4.0 million Euro (US $5.7 million) in annual revenue by selling it back to the national grid. It is no surprise to learn that small businesses have developed in the village specifically to provide services to the renewable energy installations.
What if the (still hypothetical) Climber's Lodge provided it's own ample parking, Recycled it's own waste and gray water, produced more energy than it consumed and became a model of sustainable building practices?
What if they had a little organic coffee house and/or a green Laundromat available to the locals?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Seems like the answer is to make the AAC pay for upgrading the sewer. I bet they would. You'd want to avoid too much sewage getting into the river, otherwise the Boulder people will stop buying the famous bottled water.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Just tell them it has been "organically upgraded".
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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The sewage system has already been recently upgraded (which just happened to nearly double peoples property values) allowing "locals" to build long anticipated additions and upgrades. in ES
Which in turn has fueled a building boom as property owners cash into instant equity. What are we seeing? An explosion of visually atrocious and out of character wasteful McMansions. What "intrinsic" value do these temples of selfishness bring to Eldorado Springs, it's residents or the Eldo experience?
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Peter- Yeah, it seems that the main topic around here lately has been sewage.
Pitbull-Refreshing to hear you arguing facts rather than name calling and making silly threats on behalf of your community (including vandalism and seeming to imply that rocks will be dropped on climbers):
the attitude of climbers towards others is so despicable and arrogant. If the dirtbag hostel gets built remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
You will not have fun at night here and we will make sure none of you can access even a pebble through private property. Good luck have fun way to support community and local business....why not the west end of Pearl Street where you can go have a drink,a bite to eat, or some music. Please spread the word the AAC is not welcome in ELDO WE ARE NOT THE PARK WE ARE A RESIDENTIAL COMMUNITY ON THE WAY TO THE PARK!!!!
watch out above for falling rocks...
Phil apologized, how about you?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Yeah Rick A that one was a real highlight of reasoned argument and decorous demeanor.
By the way I'd bet dollars to donuts that the bigger long term issue facing ES is the aging power grid not the upgraded poop tube.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Sorry for what why don't you look back to very first posts and see who was being rude???? Philo sure knows a lot about the sewer let me guess AAC board member,staff, or really loves the AAC.
Do you really think just 20 people will be there a day? what about all the fundraising events, tourists looking for the visitors center etc..
Mcmansions where is that? one house maybe the average house in Eldo is less 1500 sq feet. No one would be complaining if it was a small bed and breakfast where reisdents friends and family would be able to stay it would be another story. The AAC is a private club with a "demographic of white married males college educated making for than 100 g's a year" quote Penn Burris....please what benefit is that to a community? ZERO..should we all just bow down and roll over for the Alpine Club.
Not only that, Penn Burris has been personally rude to Christian Griffith and I guarantee he will be evicted from his spot. A local climber with a local climbing clothing company kicked out by the prestigious AAC. What about the recording studio that has already been in business for years less than 20 yrds from the Post Office Building...who is going to want to record while a bunch a peeps are outside hootin and hollerin
The Condarosa would be much more room and people would not have to play by so many rules and the visitors should be able to let loose and have fun....that is why a bigger place with more space and friendly neighbors would be better.
The residents of Eldo will not be nice to the guests and will probably look for any reason to turn in guests or call the cops and county to complain about everything.....
the whole sewage report info posted by others neat I am sure you are a white male married making over 100gs as an engineer I never claimed to be an expert my numbers were not exact
Tell the AAC to buy the Condarosa or deal with townies who will make sure every guest has a most unpleasant stay...I am sorry for hitting below the belt..I have never had a grudge against climbers I am not some uptight church going mini van driving Mom.. I was in my young twenties once I sure as hell would not want to pay to stay in a place with a school bus stop and residential neighbors surrounding me...BORING
Once again, Climbers are not the problem. The location and scope of the project are not in sync..where is the potential for growth or more rooms if the "Lodge" becomes a big hit? There is no more room?
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Mcmansions where is that? one house maybe the average house in Eldo is less 1500 sq feet. No one would be complaining if it was a small bed and breakfast where reisdents friends and family would be able to stay it would be another story.
Um the one right next to the post office and the dozens littering the hills.
The average house is closer to 3000 sqft.
The averages 1500 SQF house goes for 400K, it's not the size that counts but the costs.
Why would a B&B housing 20 people be better than a low cost hostel place to crash?
Are you self aware enough to realize how ridiculous you sound like a nimby?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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I never said a b&b for 20, I said a small b&b for about 6 to 8 why are you so eager for the hostel are you an AAC board member? what houses on the hill? the average size home is 1500... I said there was maybe 1 house and the house next to the post office is also a business/recording studio not just a mcmansion. the official town of eldo is the post office to the state park nothing up by the ashram they are Boulder...
Why after all this tension and so called nimbyism why do want to stay here at night again if we suck so bad...because once again you CAN climb here everday no one is taking your hard mounting rocks away. Where do you live hot stuff onMapleton Hill Highlands Ranch or Malibu?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Pittbull you are being an ass.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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No I'm not a acc member but I have built enough mini McMansions in the ''90s and have financed enough 1 million dollar homes in Eldo since then to know you are talking out of your ass that Eldo is some small town working man blues you are spraying that cannot afford a new sewer. Hell if the hippies in Nederland can work out a new sewer plan I would expect the yuppies in ES can pull it off.
If you bought in before then like one of my friends, I apologize that the taxes and costs have driven up prices beyond your means. Maybe it's time to rent out your place for a profit and move on if you can't handle the crowds.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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you guys are so good at prevoking the jackass in everyone really I don't need someone from Ned to lecture me on out of towners really? hey Philo can you ask the AAC for the their completed traffic study because people have requested it and they are not communicating. Can you tell me about the AAC transparency they have had the building under contract since december 2012 and they just told residents about May 7th... ALSO PHIL POWERS SAID INITIALLY THEY WOULD NOT MOVE FOWARD IF THE ELDO COMMUNITY WAS AGAINST IT..THAT IS WHY OVER 100 PEOPLE OUT OF 218 PEOPLE( AT LEAST 20 OF THE RESIDENTS BEING CHILDREN UNDER 16) signed a petition stating we were not in support of the AAC climbing lodge?
Now look a battle between climbers and residents has been waged.. how are 218 residents going to compete with an organization with over 12,000 members and board of directors who are celebrated in the world of FINANCE, DOT-COMERS, ENVIROMENT/GREEN BUILDING, AP REPORTERS REALLY WE DONT STAND A CHANCE BECAUSE IT IS ALL BEING DONE WITH A INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED CARBON FOOTPRINT REDUCING PRESTIGIOUS CLUB...it is the sanctimonious attitude of the AAC that is really upsetting. WE steamroll communities in the name of climbers and the outdoors
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Actually I'm from Detroit but I like to bust balls internationally.
Some people call it a gift.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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I am a wild and woolly redneck from Appalachia I dont like me no strangers
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Clearly
Still waiting on "Transparency" from the disgruntled "locals".
Who's investment panties are in a knot because they were not first in liner?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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well Philo where is the traffic report?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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hey Philo I see Hank in your photo's. You seem to pompous to be friends with Hank. I bet Hank would not want a hostel here if he still lived here.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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my investment panties are too small for the Post Office Bulding I just like me some trailers
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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How should I know where the traffic report is. Try asking the Eldo Water Gang. They have commisioned a few studies I am sure. And what is worse, what would cause greater congestion, climbers in a location conducive to walking into the park or ones who have to drive back and forth every time?
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steve shea
climber
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Pitbull you do not have to be a member of the AAC to stay at Climbers Ranch it is/was open all. As matter of fact you do not even have to climb. It is just that it is only promoted through the AAC. It is under the radar only climbers for the most part know about it but it is/was open to all if there was room. I've stayed there many times and never have been an AAC member.
Phil's right about the sewer and property values. Mana from heaven, free money. We just got off septic here on the westbank of the Snake River.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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And you expect to get 325K for a rat hole trailer? Aren't you glad ES real estate values have grown exponentially?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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My take on it...most hostels (maybe 75-100) I have stayed at are pretty cool...the tone is set by the owners. Most people who use hostels don't have cars.
I think Eldorado Springs, like Eldo is overrated and over-hyped.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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I seem pompous? Really?
Who knew lol.
Well Pittbull not that it matters but I've known Hank since he was an obscure 15 year old.
But I have known Eldo much, much longer.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So how much money is the AAC prepared to lose?
In other words, how much is a bed planned to be rented for in the hostel?
It would be hypocritical of philo to want to ban high capacity magazines but promote a high capacity dirtbag refuge. Gotta wonder how long he's known the delete button.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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I think Eldorado Springs, like Eldo is overrated and over-hyped.
Now those Mr. D'Antonio are fighting words. (The part about Eldo.) :-) Just kidding, I don't want to fight you, but how can you say that about Eldo?
Philo makes a good point about the location of the proposed climbers' hostel. If the AAC set a policy that everyone staying in the hostel absolutely must walk to the canyon, you wouldn't even know the difference, at least during the day. And surely it is close enough to the entrance of town that most residents would never even notice the comings and goings. If the management of the hostel is as on-the-ball as they are at the Grand Teton Climbers' Ranch, they could probably nip any nighttime noise in the bud.
It seems reasonable to expect the AAC to pay for any sewage related issues.
Pitbull, I'm mostly on your side but I think if you are not open to listening, you hurt your cause.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Penn Burris has not apologized, Phil Powers has attempted to.
Non profit or not, is it ok to hemorrhage donors money?
With money comes responsibility.
I can guarantee 100 % I have absolutely no interest in purchasing this building , I am also not savvy enough to get anyone to donate a million for my cause.
My agenda is clear, this is not a good fit for visiting climbers or residents. I'd like to nip this in the bud before it turns any uglier.
The Eldo residents will not let this proceed without a fight, I hate to see residents resent climbers, I have friends on both sides.
I suggest that anyone for this proposal come on out with a survey in hand and see for yourself what we are discussing, you'll have to do this from the road since it's surrounded by private property on 3 sides with the road on the other.
This proposal would require the LID to increase sewer capacity, a cost which would be the responsibility of ALL homeowners.
It' is highly unlikely that 22 people will ever sleep legally in this building, not because the AAC is listening to the residents concerns ( see Penn's letter) but because it is located in a Wildfire 1 zone /high risk area which has even stricter than normal building codes.
This in combination with having the building sit on the lot lines on 2 sides severely limits any chance of a permit, whether you have a million dollars or not.
The noble thing would be for the AAC to find an alternative location.
If you read the sensible posts this seems to be the consensus also.
Thanks All. Janet Robinson.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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What's Mountain Project?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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It would be hypocritical of philo to want to ban high capacity magazines but promote a high capacity dirtbag refuge. Gotta wonder how long he's known the delete button.
WTF?
Can you say non-sequitur?
It would be hypocritical of Toker Villian to promote high capacity magazines but want to ban kale flavored smoothies.
Again I ask WTF dude?
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Build it., then I'll put a pizza/beer hall within walking distance. It'll be a license to print money. This must be a town of inbred fools.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Build it., then I'll put a pizza/beer hall within walking distance. It'll be a license to print money. This must be a town of inbred fools.
I laughed, but can you put a price on being smug?
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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THANK YOU RILEY.......
Cheers To one of the only groups of people around the world that you can leave your belongings at the bottom of a cliff and not worry about it.
The same group you can meet afterwards for a beverage and share similar tales.....
Pitbull for sure comes off as an ass and most likely not. A climber...
I've travelled and climbed on 6 of the 7 continents and consistently I've found climbers to be the best of people.....
Unlike this spraying as#@&%e Pitbull.......
This person is the 10% that people complain about
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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but promote a high capacity dirtbag refuge
gee, and I was thinking about visiting Eldo one of these days... while I play a dirtbag climber on the weekends, I'm just a simple physicist during the week. Doesn't sound like I'd be very welcome by the locals.
The climbers' lodges I've stayed at are usually filled with climbers who are there to climb, not to rape and pillage the locals, or even to party very much. When I climbed at the 'Gunks in the 80s and 90s I always thought it was a travesty that there weren't some accommodations somewhere... but in that region the land had pretty much been all purchased by the mid 1800s.
The Climber's Ranch in the Tetons is a fantastic place for climbers and run rather well, in my opinion, by the AAC. It's great to see that the AAC is expanding climbing lodges to other places. Contrary to the characterizations, this is not an "elitist" activity, not like the elitism of the AAC of the distant past when it really did seem like an alumni club of the Ivy League schools, it's trying to find a way to expand access to some of the great climbing areas of the country for all of its members.
In a region where there is no public land available, private land purchases are the only way to create such a place... all it takes is a buyer and a seller and as long as the regulations are met it would seem that that is all that's required.
I don't have enough information to tell if this property would suit the AAC's plans, but I doubt they'd be looking at it if it wouldn't work for their purposes. I can certainly see that some town people may not wish to have the AAC as a neighbor, but there is nothing restricting the AAC from buying the property. As for the characterization of climbers as being a loud and unruly gang that will disrupt the small town? I think that's a bit over the top... I don't doubt that the local law enforcement wouldn't be called if things are noisy after hours.
It seems that the local townspeople just don't want climbers staying in their community, and their willing to be vociferous in their opposition. But Eldorado Canyon isn't going to go away as a climbing destination, climbers will continue to visit, and I hope that the AAC will figure out some way to provide lodging for climbers near by.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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TO NED HEAD GOAT MAN AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO READ IT..THE COMMENT I AM SO SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE. SOME OF MY COMMENTS WERE DISRESPECTFUL AND IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Ed Hartouni the voice of reason.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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What Ed said. If they can work out the parking situation.
Mal
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Janet wrote: My agenda is clear, this is not a good fit for visiting climbers or residents.
Is this a fact or opinion?
I don't think the AAC is looking to make a profit...maybe just have a reasonable priced lodging for visiting climbers.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Heaven forbid that a completed climbers' hostel have a commons room that could be utilized by the Eldorado Springs community as an occasional meeting area...
... there are many possible positive outcomes for this proposal.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Janet wrote: My agenda is clear, this is not a good fit for visiting climbers or residents.
Bob asked: Is this a fact or opinion?
Well it's a fact that it is AN opinion.
And an assumption.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
TO NED HEAD GOAT MAN AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO READ IT..THE COMMENT I AM SO SORRY AND I APOLOGIZE. SOME OF MY COMMENTS WERE DISRESPECTFUL AND IRRELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION
You are not being disrespectful at all, just voicing a passionate opinion that I and hopefully my comrades can respect. I've dealt with folks resistant to change all my life and the one thing I've learned is you cannot progress as a growing town and fight the money of developers at the same time.
At some point, if you are nostalgic and enjoy the way things are right here right now you will fight progress and eventually lose to city hall and their vision of the landscape. There is something buried deep within us that refuses to change. We all want to hold on to the way things used to be, but it's a losing battle.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well said Goatboy.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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WBW wrote: Now those Mr. D'Antonio are fighting words. (The part about Eldo.) :-) Just kidding, I don't want to fight you, but how can you say that about Eldo?
To me Eldo isn't worth fighting over. :-)
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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I am an AAC member and I would like to stay near Eldorado Canyon. I am all for walking into the park, so I am a supporter of the AAC hostel. I'm sorry that we are viewed as inconvenient by some locals. I have no quarrel with them but it sure seems illogical to live at a park entrance then bitch that people want to enjoy the park as much as they do. Janet and Pitbull, most climbers I know would be welcome anywhere, even "dirt bags".
I am lucky to be able to enjoy this country and climb in many beautiful areas, one of which is in your backyard. A huge lack in a lot of this country, one apparent when you travel the world, is affordable traveler's housing. I would rather spend my time in the woods than in a hostel or hotel but sometimes it isn't possible. I am grateful to see this remedied here.
I am sure the negative voices would sound out just as loud if a McDonalds replaced the Post Office. In previous "local" posts I read a lot of NIMBYism and a desire to return to a simpler time (which would be prior to the white man's arrival). That isn't going to happen. 'Merica is here to stay. Progress is nevitable.
Besides not wanting climbers staying in Eldorado Springs, what is the problem? If it's dust and speeding by cars, ok. If 20 more folks overwhelm the sewer system, ok. If 20 or less cars need parking, ok. If there is no hangout in the backyard, ok. I just don't see anything that can't be dealt with and fixed.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Manny wrote: A huge lack in a lot of this country, one apparent when you travel the world, is affordable traveler's housing.
When less than 35 percent of the US population hold a passport, the actual amount that travel aboard is way less...what do you expect?
Really sad that the town see this as a negative.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Thanks Ned your right I am anti-development... this neighborhood is tiny and i do not think it will JUST BE 20 CLIMBERS IT WILL BECOME AN ICONIC PRESTIGIOUS AAC CAMP COLORADO BOULEVARD THE AAC MISSION IS TOO BIG FOR A NEIGHBORHOOD OF 218 PEOPLE. THE RESIDENTS HERE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING THE AAC AS A NEIGHBOR AND WE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES WITHIN LEGAL PARAMETERS TO PREVENT THE AAC FROM BUYING THE PROPERTY OR DEVELOPING A HOSTEL!
THANKS NED, WBW, SOCIAL, PHILO, AND EVEN SNOWASS HOPE TO SEE YOU GUYS IN THE STATE PARK OR AT THE AAC LODGE AT THE CONDAROSA
PS FOR WHOMEVER SAID GO BACK TO THE HAMPTONS ISN'T THAT WHERE PHIL POWERS(EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF AAC) AND FAMILY GO VACATION? YOUR BOY WENT HOBART RICH PREPPY YANKEE SCHOOL AND HIS WIFE IS FROM DANBURY CONNECTICUT RIGHT NEXT TO GREENWICH THEY SHOULD GO BACK TO THE HAMPTONS!!!!!
THANKS AGAIN NED
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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It's never a good sign when the "all caps" comes out.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Is that a fact or an opinion?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pitbull is more like a toothless Chihuahua.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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hi Philo the whole historical argument Phil Powers likes it too. Mr Powers does have a degree in history right why this angle? Magnolia Plantation in Charleston, SC is a garden,zoo, and nature preserve...historically it was a rice plantation should history repeat itself here too?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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If the dirtbag hostel gets built remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
Wow, real nice people up there! Hostility? Hope all the town residents that live along a waterway are up-to-date with all federal and state permits. Wouldn't want anyone along America's waterways to be "be in violation of any law" by even an inch.
http://www.nwo.usace.army.mil/Missions/RegulatoryProgram/Colorado.aspx
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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^^^ ROTFLMAO
WWOMFS... What would old man Fowler say?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Pitbull's behavior here has inspired me to become an AAC member. What a prick.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Here's some facts:
The AAC is proposing to convert the Post Office Building in Eldorado Springs to a hostel for 22 people.
Eldorado Springs residents are concerned due to numerous issues and many residents signed a petition which was presented to the AAC.
Penn Burris of the AAC responded by saying the petition was:-
" barely worth the paper it was written on "
he signed off "Shame on you"
This response made the residents even more concerned.
The building sits on the neighbors lot line on 2 sides, the owners of these lots are not ok with the attitude of the AAC and are not going to grant a maintenance easement.
AAC will not be able to work on the East and South sides of the building.
Cannot have bedrooms without fixing up the building.
Cannot have a hostel without bedrooms.
It's never a good idea to barge into a small, cohesive community and alienate your potential neighbors, especially when your neighbors are crucial to the succes of the proposal.
Janet Robinson. Eldorado Springs.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Im sure Eldo Springs is thrilled to have the anonymous pitbull as their representative.
Threats of nails in tires and even unintentional rockfall. Lock your doors when driving in Eldo.... the neighborhood has gone way way down hill since pitbull moved in.
Time to enact an ordinance to ban the pitbull. Ahole pitbull just inspired my ACC donation.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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It's never a good idea to barge into a small, cohesive community and alienate your potential neighbors, especially when your neighbors are crucial to the succes of the proposal.
Depends on how you measure success. I measure success by whether I can spend a night or two at the AAC's hostel. Your presumed "alienation" won't cause me to lose one second of sleep.
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FGD135
Social climber
Boulder Canyon Colorado
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I used to get my mail down at the Eldo Post Office when I worked for Paul Ramer up by the Dyno-mart in the mid 1990s--even then, there were many times that parking to get mail was difficult, with the very few others that were eating at the little cafe, or shopping at Bob Culp's annex. I just don't see how there is any room whatsoever for 20+ climbers to park in that lot as it exists at the present time. Or anywhere in that vicinity.
When the park first opened, there was a small tent campground nearby, but that was closed when the park absorbed the land in question--or perhaps the Iron Hand (Boulder County) shut it down. I think the campground was run by the estate? It provided at least a few sites for climbers.
The opposite end of the state park, up by the visitor center, would be a much better location for a campground or some kind of bunk-type AAC Hostel. Iirc, talking with staff, the Iron Hand refuses to allow any camping in the park. If it were possible to build a hostel in that location, there would be some additional traffic thru the SP, but at least it would not be clogging the parking in "beautiful downtown" Eldo, home of the Volvo graveyard, etc.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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has the Eldo resident's petition been posted here?
there is a lot of unhappiness over the AAC's response, but we haven't actually seen the text the evoked that response.
Perhaps pitbull or Janet would post the text....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Janet has attempted to frame the issues, she has written extensively about why she thinks this is a poor decision by the AAC, but mostly arguing the economics of that choice.
To my way of thinking the AAC and it's planning committee, which ultimately have to answer to the AAC membership, have the responsibility of creating a viable proposal and executing it… it's their calculation to do and to explain.
Janet has intermixed some of the external factors which have to do with the community. To summarize:
1) inadequate parking;
2) the loss of a school bus stop at that location;
3) the opposition of "80%" of the neighbors;
4) the presumed disturbance to neighbors by the use of the "backyard" of the hostel by the visitors.
The rest of the issues she has raised are the practical issues the AAC has to resolve to be in compliance with various local ordinances and should not concern the community (presumably the local bureaucracy decides if owners are compliant with codes and regulations).
Addition insight into the potential neighbors' opposition comes from Mark Donovan's post:
1) potential loss of property values in neighborhood;
2) the danger represented by an estimated "700+" transients to the community, especially to the children of the community.
In almost all the posts opposing this proposal, the attitude of the AAC has been called into question. Yet it seems that the primary reason for the unhappiness with the "attitude" is that the AAC has continued to pursue the proposal.
The AAC is fully within its right to pursue the purchase of any privately owned property anywhere. And having complied with the local ordinances and regulations, to use the property as it sees fit for the use of its members. (This is a tenet of the "western property rights movement", who is arguing for the current owner's right to sell this property to a willing buyer, which the community wishes to block?).
It seems that the good people of Eldorado Springs are concerned that climbers are a bad social element and should be barred from their community. It's hard not to get that impression from what has been posted here.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Hi ED,
Here is a the petition and response from Eldo/AAC and you can also go tochange.org under mike reynolds gardiner, ny to see a petition from 2012 from the residents of Gardiner, for PIPC, AAC, and Town of Gardiner. The residents in Gardiner were not even objecting to a campground they just wanted some rules and regulations...never happened and the AAC and PIPC rallied a pr campaign against them to better the "climbing" community.
https://sites.google.com/site/eldoinfo2013/
The AAC has in the past 1 year had 2 petitions objecting to the lack of transparency and lack of concern for adjoining property owners. The New river gorge campground has its own access road and the campground is not visible to the adjacent Ames Heights Neighborhood.
The Gunx Campground is in the middle of surrounding properties at least couple hundred yards away and the residents say the noise is loud, the event center has been put in, and there is one person on site to manage over 50 campsites.
Grand Teton Lodge has 1 neighbor far away. This proximity to adjacent property owners is a huge concern to Eldo residents considering the AAC has never developed a lodge this close to neighbors and their brief expierence in close proximity to residents is very concerning.
Thanks for your time to listen to our concerns Ed
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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from pitbull's link:
Email to American Alpine Club from Eldorado Springs Petitioners, May 27, 2013
To the American Alpine Club Executive Staff and Board of Directors,
It has come to the attention of Eldorado Springs citizens that AAC believes there is widespread support within the community for your proposed Eldorado Springs Climbers' Lodge. The purpose of this communication is to share evidence to the contrary. While the opinions of those residing within two to three parcels of 3330 range from strongly opposed to adamantly opposed to AAC's proposed Lodge, opposition extends well beyond the immediate neighbors.
Until very recently, very few people have had any awareness of AAC's plans, and those who have been aware have been assuming there would be a County-led public notification and Site Plan or Special Use review process by which community support, or the lack thereof, would be gauged. However, since AAC has not yet applied for a Site Plan or Special Use review, it appears such a public review process will not occur before AAC finalizes its purchase contract.
In the absence of clear evidence of a timely, County-led public process by which the Community can become informed and provide feedback about AAC's proposed Climbers' Lodge, concerned residents of Eldorado Springs formulated and began circulating a petition to gauge the Community’s support of AAC’s plan. In just 1 week, over 70 Eldorado Springs residents, many of whom are homeowners, have signed a petition in opposition to a Climbers' Lodge at the Post Office building. The petition and resultant signatures are attached to this communication and will also be forwarded to Boulder County Land Use Commissioners.
Many of the Community members who are opposed to the Climbers' Lodge hold AAC and its mission in high regard. However, the extreme density of lodge guests on a very small lot, that would increase the population of Eldorado Springs townsite by at least 5% (10% according to 2010 census data), with inadequate parking to meet the Resort Lodge zoning requirement of 1.5 parking spaces per room, in a community already burdened by insufficient parking, is a very heavy price to pay. In addition, a sad consequence of AAC's lack of engagement in a County review process providing for open disclosure and discussion of the facts surrounding your proposal, is that "debate"within the Community about the “facts” has resulted in significant angst, incivility and broken friendships in the Community.
With the receipt of this new information, please let the Eldorado Springs petition signers know how AAC and its Board of Directors plan to proceed. It is evident that while some residents believe this will be a positive addition to the community, we now have strong evidence there are also many residents opposed to this project. Therefore the petition signers hope AAC Executive Staff and Board of Directors will honor your commitment not to move forward with a Climbers' Lodge in the face of this widespread opposition and damage to community relationships.
Please review attached AAC Hostel Petition.pdf
Respectfully,
Eldorado Springs Petitioners
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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I wonder when this thread will hit 1000?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I'm sure that this has been covered in the thread, but the AAC climbers ranch or compound or whatever it is called in the Tetons used to rule.
As for Eldo, it has some of the most classic routes in Colorado. The rock is normally excellent, and you could easily spend a year or two there knocking off routes. Boulder Canyon and Lumpy Ridge are also outstanding.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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The AAC Teton Ranch?
It's Camp 4 with training wheels.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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The AAC is entitled to purchase this building.
Boulder County Land Use and Boulder County building department will have the final say as to whether 22 people can sleep there.
This is the case whether the proposal is from climbers, bird watchers or nuns.
In the Boulder Weekly article Phil Powers agreed there were many "ifs" Also that he felt
" Most of the issues can be overcome"
Land Use and the Building Department are going to require that ALL, not MOST of the issues are overcome.
Obviously parking is a huge issue, I'm not sure how the AAC plans to overcome this issue. The AAC has paid for a study, I could say
" it's barely worth the paper it is written on"
but I am not going to stoop that low.
Paying for your own study is like arranging your own appraisal and expecting a lender to give you a mortgage.
There is potential for 44 cars attempting to park at the building.
Climber A has a late flight out and goes off for the day, climber B wants to make the most of his day and arrives early expecting to park at the hostel.
Phil Powers has stated he wants a location where climbers can walk to the cliff.
Per Phil the AAC needs to make a financial commitment by July 12th.
In the spirit of transparency perhaps the AAC will let us know what that decision is.
Janet Robinson
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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is the actual petition wording available, and not just the cover letter?
it seems that there is a .pdf file of the actual petition referred to in this cover letter...
pitbull?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Obviously parking is a huge issue, I'm not sure how the AAC plans to overcome this issue.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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There is potential for 44 cars attempting to park at the building.
Climber A has a late flight out and goes off for the day, climber B wants to make the most of his day and arrives early expecting to park at the hostel.
Phil Powers has stated he wants a location where climbers can walk to the cliff.
It is just as likely that there could be 0 cars attempting to park at the building as there being 44. A Hostel appeals to traveling climbers who are not well heeled; they may all have hitch-hiked to Eldo.
In reality, climbers are more likely than not to have traveled (and arrived at the Hostel) with their partner -- whether by car or by other conveyance. Relatively few climbers will simply show up at an area like Eldo without someone with which to climb.
While I understand your argument against a Hostel is bolstered by grossly over-estimating the impacts, you must also appreciate that reasonable minds will invariably discount these hyperbolic claims.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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You "locals" are desperate to make it seem that everyone hates the idea and wants it scuttled. But by your own acknowledgement only 70 resident out of 218 actually signed the petition. Not unanimous, not even a consensus.
Y'all must be TeaPublicans 'cause your facts aren't straight and your math is fuzzy.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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We live 2 doors away from a hostel that operated up until about a month ago (http://www.chezcascadia.org);. In the 6 years we've lived within earshot of the hostel, parking issues or other disturbances have been completely absent. The tenants mainly arrived via bus (they had suitcases/backpacks and arrived on foot from the bus stop) or taxi, and those with vehicles were never, ever a problem at all, even though parking along our street is limited, as many homes have on-street parking only. I think there were 12 - 14 beds. The hostel has always been a colorful and welcome addition to our neighborhood. Tenants were quiet and peaceful, never once partying or causing any issues or concern ever to anyone.
I'm baffled what the all the hoopla over the AAC hostel there is. Looks like there's plenty of room at the Post Office and ample parking nearby. Perhaps a satellite parking area when needed? Opposition to the effort sounds either unfounded or something else untold and suspicious is going on. Maybe NSA needs to check things out up there!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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donini is the valet?
What a nightmare!
A blue camalot just to get him not to roll your car?
Boulder really is getting expensive!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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That's hilarious crunch, it's the white gloves that really sells it.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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donini is the valet?
imagine if it was pitbull....
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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This is revealing:
Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $485,454 (it was $251,800 in 2000)
Eldorado Springs: $485,454
Colorado: $237,800
Mean prices in 2009: All housing units: $491,907; Detached houses: $714,706; In 2-unit structures: $646,192; Mobile homes: $24,544
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Eldorado-Springs-Colorado.html#ixzz2YPrXcBMT
Here's the proposed hostel building:
Doesn't look as if parking is a big issue here.
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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I remember the first night I spent in Boulder, desperately looking for a place to throw down our sleeping bags and being woken up by rangers somewhere up Flagstaff. Back then they were cool about it (no ticket), but we still had to move along.
It seems to me that a climbers' hostel or campground would be a good objective, but this location won't comply with County regulations- at least not for the 20 bed plan. The AAC will have to ask for a variance, and the locals will block it. Might as well skip the whole exercise and find a more rural spot; these modern climbers have cars and they can deal with a short drive.
Where is this Condarosa?
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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How about the old Hotel location up Rattlesnake Gulch? For the avid Hiker...it has a good historic precedent, killer views, you can party like a rock star without disturbing any neighbors, and there's no shortage of parking, as long as you enter the park before dusk or have the keypad combo.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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The residents of Eldorado Springs intentionally keep the dirt road through the community in poor shape just to deter potential visitors to Eldorado Canyon State Park. They really don't want anybody visiting or passing through their community.
The people up in Ward used to do that until that rode got paved. The people living up off of Lee Hill Road got the last 100 yards or so of their road off of Left Hand Canyon to be left unpaved to deter tourist traffic. That section eventually got paved.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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That's the first step, for sure. Pave the road. Paving the road might also get people thinking how to create some more parking spaces.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Not one word about the pool and it impact on the town, parking and road. What a joke this has become.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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All the roads, and much of the parking, in Eldorado Springs are privately owned by Eldorado Artesian Springs, Inc. Over the last several years, a plan for improving the road was collaboratively developed by the owners, State Parks, Boulder County, and Eldorado Springs residents. When (if) the final agreement is approved by the State and owners, the road and parking will be dramatically improved, benefiting the resort, residents, and park visitors.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Driving in and out of Eldo on July 4th after climbing, I looked at the post office with the eye of what the parking area would look like with 20-something cars parked in the lot. I really don't think it would work at all. For a greater number of cars, the AAC would need a full time attendant to sort the mess out. The picture upthread posted of the location and lot really doesn't accurately show the potential parking situation very accurately. It would seem that the AAC would have to limit the number of visitors with cars to less than the number of beds it would have in the hostel.
For the residents of Eldo Springs, keep in mind that if the hostel is placed at a different location where visiting climbers will need to drive to the canyon, you will have more traffic driving through your town. If the potential number of cars is truly 44, which seems high to me, think about the impact of that number of cars driving all the way through town, as opposed to the edge of town where the post office is. If the climbers' hostel is inevitable at some location or another, the issues around the increased impact to Eldo Springs may possibly be better managed having the AAC as a good neighbor. Having seen the chaos (and I suppose having been part of it) of all the cars driving through on July 4th, I cannot imagine that any town resident would want that problem to get any worse than it currently is. It may be more productive for your community to decide what it would absolutely need in order to support the AAC coming to your town, (such as they pay for any sewer issues, requiring climbers staying at the hostel to walk to the canyon, etc.), and then see where the conversation goes.
I'm in problem-solving mode on this, and I think taking out the preconceived, hard-stances and some of the emotion will go far in a positive result for all.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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The only entrance to the state park is a private road? Owned by a business that's obviously a scam? The state should take it by eminent domain, particularly since the reason for not paving it (for how long now, 50 years?) is to keep people out. I agree about the pool, too, turn it into a parking lot.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Bob, on July 4th, between the picnickers going to the canyon, and the folks going to the pool, the traffic and parking situation in Eldo Springs was an absolute mess. I think on an average day during the summer, the pool has a much more negative impact on town than any climbers' hostel would.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I have no vested interest in Eldorado Springs, but jeez, what a bunch of NIMBY-ism.
Suck it up, a place that climbers stay at isn't going to be party central.
I've stayed at climbers hostels before. Granted, they were in Europe, but I never encountered a party scene. It was more coffee and friendly conversation than whiskey and raucous discourse.
And, if you discount the Euro comparison, you don't realize that most climbers IMO, are intelligent, respectful folks.
How many parking spaces are currently available at this location?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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wbw...that was my point...the pool has a huge impact on parking and the town.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the "Condarosa" looks like it's about 5 km from the climbing, about 3 miles...
perhaps the AAC could have mountain bikes available from that venue... hiking in wouldn't be horrendous but about an hour.
The wording of the petition, and reading the article, it certainly seems as if there are definite "themes" that some local Eldorado Springs residents are voicing...
Certainly there is a local interest in maintaining the current status quo for the use of the former Post Office. It must be convenient for locals to be able to use that space without having to own it. The current owner, unable to sell due to "community opposition" to the buyer's planned use, is then compelled to offer the space at depressed value.
Another theme that emerges is the fear that the hostel will bring in undesirable elements. Climbers are often characterized as an economic lower class. But there is also the explicit reference in the petition wording that the hostel will attract lower class people, "people of all types who are seeking inexpensive lodging from all over the Denver metro area," to stay in that community. That's not how the AAC works.
Finally, there is the theme that seems to desire less use of Eldorado Canyon for climbing and climbers, which is diametrically opposed to the AAC's desire to make this climbing area more accessible to climbers.
When I read Levin's guide "front matter" there is the statement that the: "unfortunately for the visiting climber, there is no camping in Eldorado Canyon State Park and a dearth of camping opportunities in the Boulder area. The closest campground is the privately owned 10-site Boulder Mountain Lodge, located two miles east of the town in Boulder Canyon. ..."
Also from that guide is the information that the climbing season for Eldo is late spring through the fall, and not in the winter. It would seem the AAC would have to work out what the Hostel use would be during the winter when, presumably, the climbers wouldn't be there.
The fear of "people of all types" seems to drive much of the opposition to the AAC's proposal, which if lost, certainly benefits the current situation, and accomplishes the desire among some of the locals to reduce access to the climbing.
I find the suspicion of the AAC's "agenda" to be suspicious in its own right.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Where is this Condarosa?
http://www.5325.wkre.com/
This option makes the post office look just plain retarded, especially with Condarosa's commercial zoning - and it's not even the only better option available. Seems the difference in capacity and maintenance would more than offset the cost difference.
+1 for mission's simple words - it isn't going to happen, so why bother? Why waste the resources and erode your reputation? Do any of you have any first hand experience with Boulder's codes? It sure doesn't sound like it.
Where is Penn's apology?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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If it won't work as a hostel, it looks like it could work as a rehab center for drug addicts. At $80K each for a 30 day stay, it should only take 6 or so patients to make this quite profitable. Won't need a lot of parking spaces either.
There you go Eldo, problem solved.
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noriko nakagawa
Trad climber
eldorado springs co
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Regarding the numerous references to the Tetons Climbers' Ranch, it's in the middle of open space, not in a limited parking residential area.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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You can climb in Eldorado Canyon year around. In the cold winter months the cliffs of the West Ridge, much like the base of El Capitan, are warm and inviting.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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You can climb in Eldorado Canyon year around. In the cold winter months the cliffs of the West Ridge, much like the base of El Capitan, are warm and inviting.
You can climb year round on some days, and nice winter days can be perfect. But they're the exception--many winter (and late fall / early spring) days are absolutely shut down, and many others are marginal, so a local may head out for a few pitches, but it's certainly not where you'd go for a winter climbing vacation.
Peak summer is also climable in the morning and the shade, but again, who would plan a vacation to climb in Eldo in July or August? (Lots of people may wonder who would ever plan a vacation to climb in Eldo, but that's a different issue.)
Bottom line is that the weather only supports destination climbing (as opposed to local climbing) for half the year or so.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Bottom line is that the weather only supports destination climbing (as opposed to local climbing) for half the year or so.
I would disagree. Yes, there can be snow days when climbing is shut down, but the winters on the Front Range are generally mild. I don't think you can assume that Eldorado Canyon would only be a destination spot six months of the year. April through November are usually very good months and that's eight by my count.
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steve shea
climber
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Teton Climbers Ranch was never mentioned as a similar situation. Only that it serves as as good example of how well run it is. I'm sure the AAC would administer the new Eldo Climbers Hostel in a similar way. The NPS has some draconian rules and regulations. Although the Ranch does not have the same issues, it is in no way grandfathered or enjoys free run of the park. The park recognized the the mountaineering heritage of the area and worked with the AAC to make it happen. Win, win.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I would disagree. Yes, there can be snow days when climbing is shut down, but the winters on the Front Range are generally mild. I don't think you can assume that Eldorado Canyon would only be a destination spot six months of the year. April through November are usually very good months and that's eight by my count.
OK, we'll just disagree then. I've lived and climbed in Boulder for over 20 years, but you may be tougher than me, certainly lots of climbers are!
But let me dispute your April - November count by at least two months: I think very few locals would say that July and August have typically good climbing in Eldo, or even really tolerable except in early morning. And some of the routes in the shade (e.g., at Peanuts) are fun, but they're not what make Eldo sorta destination quality. Today is a fairly typical day--high projected to be low 90s, with the common threat of afternoon thunderstorm thrown in to boot.
I agree that July and August can be good climbing months close to the Front Range, but that's the climbing at elevation (especially high peaks, which are mostly only climable around then, for mere mortals). Eldo's about as low/hot as it gets around here.
I don't know if it's expected that climbers will stay at the proposed hostel and climb around the Front Range but not specifically Eldo--that could change the dynamics quite a bit.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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A hostel in Boulder would be fully occupied and raging 24/7/365, no matter how big they made it. There is a lot to do here all year long and everyone from everywhere wants to come here to do it.
If they put one in somewhere larger than a 3600 sq ft rat hole, I'd even consider re-joining the AAC just to support it. Everyone wants to see one get built. It could be a new center for climbing and for the AAC. Sorry, nobody gives a sh#t about the library. Sell that useless dump and relocate somewhere people will actually visit.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well said Steve Shea.
And BWB, 20 or so beds does not have to equate to 20 or so cars. Probably more like four or five. Who ever said it would be one car per climber per bed? Meeting there in multiple cars is more of a front range climber thing. Not so much an itinerant traveling climber issue. And better they stay parked there rather that drive back and forth daily.
It can indeed be climbable year round in Eldo. Some of my best days there have been in Winter.
Sunshine, sandstone and solitude what's not to like? The pool and the picknickers have a vastly bigger impact on the traffic woes of ES. And those folks have little to no care of or connection to the local community. Climbers on the other hand do make connections with the locals many of whom are avid climbers. Climbers come to cherish the Park and appreciate the locals. The AAC would supervise and manage a Climber's Lodge very well indeed. It Could be a fine community asset that Pitbull would only bitch about because they wouldn't hire him to manage it.
Don't be fooled by the rhetoric of an alternate agenda. The building as is has many limitations but more land than you may realize. It may never come to pass but it is worth looking into.
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desdichado
Boulder climber
colorado
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Its funny to think how much climbers have changed. The climbers i grew up with almost 40 years ago were much more like the Eldo locals then the AAC types. After all the community is about 30% trailer homes squeezed in next to each other like the tents used to be in camp 4 or "Camping les Cedres" in Apt... and the 'Gucci' cabins, does my foundation less 380 sq.ft one count?
.. As for the AAC, Penn Burris, one of their big guns described the AAC in an early email to the town as " the AAC is primarily composed of married, white, men with six digit incomes" (really that's what he said!) if that's you then congratulations you are one of America's reigning 1%! But that wasn't the climbing scene that i grew up in nor would it have been one that would have made me want to dedicate my life to the sport..
But i get it.. Boulder and the front range really does need a place where climbers can stay. But they aren't coming here to climb in Eldo and making them stay in Eldo isn't going to do them or the locals any favors. I walk the canyon and the Fowler trail high on the south side, with my daughter almost four afternoons a week and even on a perfect afternoon, often i can count the number of climbers on a single hand. Climbers come to Colorado to Boulder or for the competitions or for the sport climbing and Eldo grand old crag that it is doesn't have high enough concentrations of any of that to be appealing to the vast majority of visitors these days.
So why not find a spot that will really serve climbers? One that can accommodate events and handle large volumes of climbers on high season times as well as hardcore types that are traveling from area to area and staying mostly in their cars? a location thatwould be closer to grocery stores and places to eat as well the climbing that people are coming to Colorado to do? You might not get the post card prettiness of Eldo as a backdrop for a photo in the AAC's annual report but really that isn't what this is supposed to be about right?
C. Griffith
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'd even consider re-joining the AAC just to support it.
what an honor to the AAC to have your membership
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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And why are we discussing this what does this have to do with California anyway?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Is the problem too many visitors, or not enough? Great question, perhaps I was being a little abstract.
Let me try again:
I agree with the many posters who observe that it would be great to have a hostel and/or camping in or near Boulder to serve visiting climbers, but that the "rathole" in Eldo seems very sub-optimal for multiple reasons.
The AAC may or may not have the right to build the hostel--I don't know--just seems like a bad idea to me regardless of the local reaction.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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First off Steve Shea the Tetons is constantly used as a similar lodging facility by the AAC as how fabulous they are at lodging accomodations. The Heuco Tanks was just purchased last year , correct? ISn't that location near Juarez...awesome. The New River Gorge just opened and the Gunx(under AAC management) the Crash Pad in Tennessee is owned by 2 young guys and AAC members get a discount, correct?
So where is a similar facility operated by the AAC like the proposed Eldo Lodge? This 22 nonsense at a time maximum....think about all you AAC members are you not going to stop at your clubhouse after climbing to use the bathroom, see a friens, have a beer? Do you not think every Honky Tonk cruisin up in their RV are going to think the AAC Lodge is the gateway to the park? Think about it?
Also, Philo, you are dead wrong with your parameters of the post office building, even though you put in all the lighting for the now debunk Green Belly, is that your agenda? Another lighting gig by your buddies at the AAC, I am sure it will be eco awesome!
The AAC also plans on having fundraising events to "raise the money" to remodel the building for the Lodge, which they claim will take years! Awesome how is a fundraiser with 22 people going to be successful unless it was 15-30 grand a plate? So when the AAC has a fundraising event and one of the residents wants to have a party and there is nowhere for friends and family to park because everyone from the AAC is rallying money and crying poor! How is that going to work?
There are much better options available.. i don't get it why the AAC is deadset on this property?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Please listen to the voices of reason...WBW, Social, JLP, Janet, Christian, Mission, Brad White...they know the real deal. I know no one is going to admit what I am saying is right because you luv to hate the pittbull or toothless chiahauha I may be toothless but I got a huge set of iron nuts!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pitbull wrote: I may be toothless but I got a huge set of iron nuts!
Like most of your ranting here that is not based on reality.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Mark Donovan is a neighbor of mine ha ha Meagan you all will know who I am if you ever get your clubhouse not to worry....didn't Mark put up a thoughtful letter asking people to have respectable conversation with him? I would never do that you guys don't pay attention to anyone who disagrees with ya'll in a nice manner. I wouldn't waste my time being nice to you what will that help?
Your right I am not a climber I am a monster truck driver weeeehoooo why would I ever want to spend anytime in NY with a bunch of yankees
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Any hope you had of convincing anyone of your opinion has been ruined by your sh#t attitude, Pitbull. You seem like a real prick. Whatever happens with the lodge, it'll have nothing to do with your bullshit here on supertopo. In additional, your finely vailed threats make you sound like a six year old. Given your regard to climbers as trouble makers, seems like a poor crowed to f*#k around with.
I wouldn't waste my time being nice to you what will that help?
Your purpose here SHOULD have been to garner support and understanding and being nice goes a long way. There's little anyone here can agree on and you could have easily gained some followers. Especially if you were remotely interested in a compromise. So why are you here? Do you really think making threats is going to help your cause?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Boulder County Land Use and Boulder County building department will have the final say as to whether 22 people can sleep there. This is the case whether the proposal is from climbers, bird watchers or nuns. In the Boulder Weekly article Phil Powers agreed there were many "ifs" Also that he felt "Most of the issues can be overcome." Land Use and the Building Department are going to require that ALL, not MOST of the issues are overcome.
Cool Hand Luke was a great movie and "what we've got here is a failure to communicate" definitely comes to mind. The people of Eldorado Springs absolutely have the right to comment on potential development in their own local community, but why rush to judgement without understanding the facts and specifics surrounding this AAC project? What conceivable reason do you have (Janet, or anyone else) to believe that all of the issues will not be adequately addressed?
At this point, most of the comments by ES residents appear to be more fear related than anything else. While there is an obvious and natural fear of the unknown, why not wait until we see how all the issues of parking, traffic, sewer, etc are addressed by the AAC, before mounting such a staunch opposition? Simply let a reasoned analysis of the issues move forward before deciding whether or not the project is supportable. That only makes sense, right?
Penn Burris has not apologized, Phil Powers has attempted to.
This also seems like an emotionally fueled comment. The proposed hostel is not a "Penn Burris" project, but rather an AAC project. Phil Powers certainly has the ability to apologize on behalf of the AAC and he has done so.
Curt
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Philo, you can't be serious. 4 or 5 cars?
I think that the number would be higher, but in between parking laps I'm sure donini could take off the white gloves (thats how the Italians actually put it) and give the Pitbull an intro into climbing's own Michael Vick.
No wait, I have a better idea. How about replacing the Post Office with a 4 or 5 story structure replete with indoor parking with video monitor for those tire problems, and a climbing wall on 2 sides.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Pitbull posted; Also, Philo, you are dead wrong with your parameters of the post office building, even though you put in all the lighting for the now debunk Green Belly, is that your agenda? Another lighting gig by your buddies at the AAC, I am sure it will be eco awesome!
Yeah that's it, I am presenting the voice of a reasoned argument because I want a lighting job a few years from know. BWAHAHAHA ROTFLMAO! Damn my agenda has been disclosed.
And JLP, do you like anything? Other than your 401K?
You are always such a nay-sayer.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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Nope wrong again Meagan Mark and Heleen are too nice and rational with trying to work out this fiasco...being nice doesn't work ...the AAC has had the building under contract for over 7 months don't you think they would have tried to work out concerns with the community at least a couple of months before purchasing the property.
Climbers are not the problem..who is going to guarantee everyone staying in the clubhouse is here to climb? What do you guys have to mount a rock or do tie some knots to prove you can climb to stay in the lodge?
FYI the parking along the Post office is a state highway technically you are not to park there has anyone ever noticed all the parking tickets on cars parked on the road by Dowdy Draw or South Mesa?
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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oh Meagan my name and email are somewhere on this forum.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Pitbull you are losing. Losing respect, credibility and support.
I doubt sincerely that the residents of ES really want you as their spokesperson or poster child. Does the town of ES want to be known as such a unfriendly Nimby-land?
In fact if you (and a small handful of others) were truly representative of the "scene" in Eldo/ES the conflicts with climbers would be constant and out of hand. But they have not been and are not being contentious. Except when neo-con vigilantes like you want to go all spastic playing lovely Rita meter maid. If you want to see the ugly side of ES just go look in the mirror.
For the record anyone who has been on this forum over the past many years knows exactly who I am. It has never been a secret. But for you Pitbull since you have been concerned enough to background check me here it is again.
Phil Broscovak.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Phil wrote: And JLP, do you like anything? Other than your 401K?
You are always such a nay-sayer.
Angry-older-white Male.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Pitbull raises some good points.
What is the situation with parking along the roadside?
I always assumed that parking on the roadside to the east of the town (and beyond any the residences) was fine, legal. I often see one or two cars parked along there.
Isn't it a county road?
And as far as who stays in the hostel, that's also a legitimate question.
One that Mark Kroese, president of the AAC and who posted upthread that he was paying attention and wanted to provide transparency, should probably address.
Mark?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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We are not talking about a prison release half way house here.
There are indeed legitimate issues and concerns regarding any land use of the type suggested.
But we are talking about the AAC here not Walmart. It is sad that some residents chose to round up the torches and pitchforks and go all Benghazi-gate. There is absolutely nothing wrong or improper with the AAC putting that property under contract (while doing their own feasibility studies) before presenting a plan to the community for input. That's how it works. In fact it was fiscally prudent of them to lock the purchase price in before the real estate Machiavellian vultures ballooned property values into the Stratosphere. They may choose to proceed or not or choose another property. They will not make a rash or foolhardy decision. They will not steam roll the locals. They will not buy it to "turn it" in a quick speculative venture. I can see a few "locals" getting their Pradas and Pranas into a twist for loosing such a golden investment opportunity. Me thinks they doth complain too much. Some other "locals" are just neo-con nest eggers that got theirs and want to shut the gate. I wouldn't be at all surprised that when all is said and done, disclosed and discussed, that a majority of ES residents would come to embrace the idea of a building refurbished into an AAC Climber's Lodge as the best possible use.
Now Pittbull why don't you get busy and start a regular shuttle service between the park and the HippieMart to cut down on parking. I would bet lots of climbers and maybe more than a few poolers would gladly ride back and forth in an air conditioned shuttle for a buck a loop. It could be the 2nd biggest industry in Eldo. Be a part of the solution O anonymous one. Quit being the problem.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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as far as accommodations, we are talking about a climber's hostel, not the Ritz Carleton or The Plaza...
...basically a place to keep your stuff reasonably secure during the day, flop and be able to cook meals while climbing.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Oh the HORROR.
Lions and tigers and belayers oh my.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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At this point, most of the comments by ES residents appear to be more fear related than anything else.
Nah, they'd be against anyone who bought that building, no matter what they wanted to do with it. They're just trying to keep the outsiders out.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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They're just trying to keep the outsiders out. Conveniently adding that they were once outsiders as well.
Welcome to Nimby Springs the least friendly place in America.
Come on down to Pitbull's tire repair shop we'll drop a rock on you..
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Dear Mark Kroese, and AAC Board of Directors,
I have sent a few emails to you and have not received a reply.
I am both a climber and resident of Eldorado Springs.
For many, many years climbers and residents have coexisted, often sharing the same concerns, we stood shoulder to shoulder to prevent a quarry also to fight against TV towers on Eldorado Mountain.
Both groups are passionate about Eldorado and the amazing canyon, it's where we scatter ashes of our gone too soon friends, it's where we gather to regain our sanity in this world.
I think you know it's a very special place.
Living in Eldorado is not for everyone, it has it's challenges but as a community of 208 residents with an increasing number of children we make it work and we and our children thrive here.
We look out for one another, help each other in times of need and band together when attacked, just as the climbing community would.
I feel privileged to be part of both communities and have made many life long friends.
Unfortunately ever since the AAC came into town and announced the plan for a 22 bed hostel things have become sour.
It happened slowly, a few rumblings, a petition, then the letter from Penn Burris, which was a turning point in the community's feelings about the AAC and the hostel.
Justified or not the residents felt attacked by the AAC, it was truly a game changer, a line in the sand.
Inevitably word spread and a comments from both side were posted on Super Topo. Residents were called jackasses and other names I will not print.
Fortunately most residents who posted were civil and posted their full names.
If you know anything about the folks in Eldo you will know that the anonymous Pit Bull does not represent our conduct or our way of communicating.
The lack of any communication from the AAC is incredibly disappointing.
The AAC needs to take full responsibility for this new divide, this new animosity.
We have no idea when or if it will ever resolve but damage has been done.
I has truly been upsetting to witness these wounds becoming deeper with no accountability from the AAC.
This conflict has made the Eldorado Springs residents stronger and more cohesive, a natural response when one feels attacked, just as the climbers also feel attacked.
I encourage you to update the residents, concerned climbers and AAC members before the two communities become even more divided.
It did not need to be dealt with in this manner.
The lack of transparency and avoidance of questions is concerning and very dissappointing.
Sincerely
Janet Robinson. Eldorado springs.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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^^^Find out who pitbull is, out him/her and/or tell him/her to sh#t his mouth. He/she is certainly not doing Eldo residents and favors with threats and vitriol.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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remember climbing parasites your cars will be towed if even an inch on local property. Your gear will get trashed or ruined if left outside. You will be greeted with nothing but hostility from locals and the cops will be called everytime one of your entitled members does anything that could be in violation of any law.
pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Actually Janet it was the irrational knee jerk reaction of a handfull of uninformed residents that created this conflict not the AAC. It doesn't seem as if you protesters have even let the process unfold before rallying the mob. Give the AAC a chance to present a case before you attack them with such duplicity. I am glad at least that you are distancing your self from the rabid Pitbull. This thread is getting traction and wings. It is being read around the country and probably by now around the world. Do you really want Eldorado Springs to get such an unfriendly rap just to keep the imaginary unwashed masses out.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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pitbull = olivekinsey3@gmail.com
See post 150 or so for the details on this.
Since everyone else has decided to voice there opinion, I'll give mine too. The site and the building could be renovated to accommodate the parking and the use proposed by the AAC. A good architect could make this happen. It might not be cheap, but it is doable. The vast majority of the concerns from the homeowners are NIMBY, and the few real issues can be addressed.
This may or may not be the best place for the hostel, but nothing put forth by the homeowners is substantial enough to stop the AAC from exploring utilizing this location.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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It seems that those trying to claim to be the voice of all ES residents don't even know how many residents are in ES.
Eldorado Springs, Colorado
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Eldorado Springs, Colorado
— CDP —
Location in Boulder County and the state of Colorado
Coordinates: 39°56′27″N 105°15′21″WCoordinates: 39°56′27″N 105°15′21″W
Country United States
State Colorado
County Boulder[1]
Area
• Total 2.4 sq mi (6.2 km2)
• Land 2.4 sq mi (6.2 km2)
• Water 0 sq mi (0 km2)
Elevation[1] 5,732 ft (1,747 m)
Population (2010)
• Total 585
• Density 232.1/sq mi (89.8/km2)
Time zone MST (UTC-7)
• Summer (DST) MDT (UTC-6)
ZIP code[2] 80025
Area code(s) 303
FIPS code 08-23630
GNIS feature ID 0181177
Eldorado Springs is a census-designated place (CDP) in Boulder County, Colorado, United States. The population was 585 at the 2010 census.[3] [4] The Eldorado Springs Post Office has the ZIP Code 80025.[2]
In 1910, Eldorado Springs was a resort community, known for its Big Radium Pool, then the largest swimming pool in the United States. The pool, along with several other smaller ones, was known as "Coney Island of the West."[5]
The nearby Eldorado Canyon State Park is famous for its classic North-American climbing routes.
Contents [hide]
1 Geography
2 Demographics
3 Notable residents
4 See also
5 References
6 External links
Geography[edit]
Eldorado Springs is located at 39°56′27″N 105°15′21″W (39.940786, -105.255930)[6].
According to the United States Census Bureau, the CDP has a total area of 2.4 square miles (6.2 km2), all of it land. To the southwest is Eldorado Mountain.
Demographics[edit]
As of the census[4] of 2000, there were 557 people, 275 households, and 133 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 232.1 people per square mile (89.6/km²). There were 295 housing units at an average density of 122.9 per square mile (47.5/km²). The racial makeup of the CDP was 94.61% White, 0.72% African American, 0.18% Native American, 1.80% Asian, 0.90% from other races, and 1.80% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.87% of the population.
There were 275 households out of which 20.0% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 39.3% were married couples living together, 5.5% had a female householder with no husband present, and 51.6% were non-families. 38.5% of all households were made up of individuals and 2.9% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.03 and the average family size was 2.74.
In the CDP the population was spread out with 17.2% under the age of 18, 5.6% from 18 to 24, 35.5% from 25 to 44, 33.8% from 45 to 64, and 7.9% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 42 years. For every 100 females there were 108.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 110.5 males.
The median income for a household in the CDP was $48,875, and the median income for a family was $96,823. Males had a median income of $61,625 versus $26,750 for females. The per capita income for the CDP was $42,908. About 15.4% of families and 11.9% of the population were below the poverty line, including 7.2% of those under age 18 and none of those age 65 or over.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Thanks Janet.
It sounds like the miscommunication started early and has snowballed out of control,
to the point it may be a losing battle to put the hostel there.
Would like to hear more from the AAC on why other options are not
being pursued when there is so much resistance on the current property.
And why dissent emails are being ignored while my initial email of support
was responded to within 12 hours.
Time to own up to this fallout AAC. Silence is not helping the cause.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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band together when attacked
why is the AAC proposal viewed as an attack?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Because they are being reactionary.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Everybody is being reactionary.
When communication is lacking the other party feels their concerns are not worthy of discussion so the dismissive attitude feels like an objection of their opinions or an attack on their objectives and concerns.
Haven't you guys ever argued with a chick before?
This is first round stuff.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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The ACC hostel and the Eldo resident response is the true definition of a FIRST WORLD PROBLEM
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Goatboy they didn't even give the AAC the opportunity to work up and present a plan before reacting to rumor and speculation. Trying to hold the AAC accountable for their impatience is a naively stupid argument. You have been around the business, do you apply for a building permit before you have plans drawn up?
I know if I were in a position to purchase and redevelop that property I wouldn't disclose a thing til all my ducks were in a row. The AAC has a commendable record of getting their ducks in a row. So why don't yall quit quacking off and have a little patience. The AAC and current property owner signed a contract to purchase the parcel seven months ago and nothing has happened yet. No demoing, no remodeling, no evictions. They sure don't seem like they are steamrolling anyone. To the contrary the seem to be taking time to look at the situation from multiple angles including the resident's points of view. Why should they be forced to respond before they have finished what ever feasibility studies they deem necessary? You wouldn't dream of demanding that of any other purchaser of private property and you damn well wouldn't accept it if you were the buyer.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Back off your soapbox for once Philo, after exchanging several emails from friends in ES, Boulder County, and the AAC, the Club dropped the ball on this one. I have over two decades of building homes, dealing with codes and financing properties in this town.
This deal went downhill when the Club started to ignore the residents. Maybe the ACC can pull it off but the money involved to bring in the lawyers seems absurd.
Personally I think the Club can get more bang for their buck by buying one of the old frat houses on University Hill. Access to the Flatirons, Eldo. Boulder Canyon, the Fox, Liquor Mart, downtown all within 15-20 minutes.
Remember the International Hostel? Let's bring that back before clownshoe half stepping on the residents of Eldorado and their concerns despite how NIMBY they come across here.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Why should they be forced to respond before they have finished what ever feasibility studies they deem necessary? You wouldn't dream of demanding that of any other purchaser of private property and you damn well wouldn't accept it if you were the buyer.
Because the AAC is a self-defined non-profit group, and to that end there is a reasonable expectation of more transparency than one might have of an average buyer. When any non-profit lacks transparency, or appears to, people cry foul much faster than they would in regards to an individual, or for that matter a different type of organization.
Also, this boils down to an issue of trust, and unfortunately L. Penn may have burned that bridge.
Phil, I believe that all of the hysterics and name-calling are counterproductive to both sides. The post by Christian is very balanced and thought out. So too those by Janet, who is a very intelligent and calm person. I would suggest focusing on those points of view.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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what a mess....
the Eldorado Springs residents just don't want the AAC hostel there, no matter what the plan... they fear the people who might stay at the hostel, they are unhappy about the existing parking mess and they worry about the possible loss of property values. They would also like to make their town in their image of what it should/could be, which does not include outsiders.
The AAC it trying to be two things at once, a landlord of a hostel in a residential community and a "good friend" to all, and bungled that balancing act by reacting emotionally to the realization that the Eldo Springs community just doesn't want the hostel in their town, no matter what. We all know it is hard to mix business and friendship, and the sense of betrayal, on both the AACs side and the Eldo Springs side was inevitable.
Then to post it on the SuperTopoForum is like throwing gasoline on a fire...
...and it leaves a lasting impression too.
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steve shea
climber
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It is a mess. And I have an impression of the people of Eldorado who are afraid, uniformed and do not want change. The AAC has suffered some loss of goodwill. The hard part for me is seeing the climbing heritage dismissed as some sort of Taliban plot.
Fortunately I remember Eldo and old man Fowler and the many many great days there. Late 60's to the mid 70's. On and off the rock. Climbing was our thing then and seemed to be embraced. Much different now, the residents anyway. The 'not in my backyard' crew will suffer in the end. Higher taxes, the feel of a gated community where visitors are only 'allowed' in and the reputation that that engenders.
I'm not suggesting the AAC give up. But they might want screw the Boulder plan and look at Estes and RMNP. There is better climbing and more of it and they might be embraced for many reasons.
Ask not what you can do for the AAC, but what the AAC can do for you. You Eldo residents may be surprised.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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If the AAC did mess things up in the beginning it not like they are some dirt/scum bag group with evil intentions.
They have done some great things for climbers in the past and I think that trend will continue into the future.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The misperception of each side is evident now in hindsight. The people of Eldorado Springs thought that the AAC's statements that they would not go forward with the hostel in the face of community resistance only required them to demonstrate that resistance.
The AAC thought it was negotiating a plan with the community that could, in principle, resolve the community issues.
While the Eldorado Springs community came up with "reasons" for their resistance to the plan, AAC thought it could come up with "solutions."
In the end we see that there are no "reasons" and thus no "solutions."
When the AAC persisted, the Eldorado Springs community interpreted this as a broken promise and a demonstration of the AAC's lack of integrity. When the AAC attempted to negotiate a solution to the community's objections and found those solutions rejected, with additional problems raised, it interpreted the community as not acting in "good faith."
The AAC could have better probed the community feelings before going down this path. Most likely they felt they did, but my guess is that it was rather informal and not a true reflection of the community (which seems obvious at this point). A more professional approach might be suggested in the future.
Eldorado Springs could also have said from the very beginning that they didn't want this in their community and there was no conditions for which they would accept it. Their need to justifying themselves has lead to the unfortunate posts to this thread (and elsewhere) which seem extremely hostile to the idea of visiting climbers. Right now I'd be hesitant to drive my car into the canyon for climbing, I have California plates and the threat of tire slashing and other vandalism (or worse) have been made. The community ought to be honest in its desires, and not try to justify them with reason.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well said Bob.
Brad there are many intelligent people on this forum who are making reasoned arguments in favor of the AAC's intentions. I believe I am one of them. Some of the "locals" are also being polite but they are presenting a false sense of what is going on based on a knee jerk emotional response fueled by the dissent of a few. Again we are talking about the AAC here not a local speculative developer.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kinda like most republicans, when logic and truth won't work turn to fear. The boogie man is coming to get you.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Helene, the only pattern I see is that climbers that move next to an area they once visited for climbing don't want camping or hosteling to happen near them.
The distances of the proposed campground from residences in Gardiner are 200 to 500 yards. That is a pretty darned good buffer.
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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Thanks for the input Todd. The Eldo Lodge location would be a lot closer than 200 yards.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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"Thanks for the input Todd. The Eldo Lodge location would be a lot closer than 200 yards."
Do you realize a hostel is not an open campground?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Parking issues, what parking issues?
I would like to know from the concerned citizens what use they would approve of for the post office property?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Helene, and other Eldo Springers,
I believe that there is no way you would accept a hostel under any situation. Providing "information" regarding other AAC arrangements is irrelevant here. Those arrangements work or are being worked out. I don't see that the Eldo Springs community is willing to work things out, they just want this potential "problem" eliminated. It has nothing to do with "reason."
There may be a set of justifications that the Eldo Springs community would offer for their opposition, but certainly solutions could be found, as they have been in other places, to see a hostel placed in the community. It just isn't acceptable to you.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Ed, though they disingenuously imply that the whole of the town is up in arms it is not the whole community that is opposed to the AAC redevelopment plan. In fact they have only gotten 100 signers out of 585 residents. That is far from a majority. Maybe it is a case of squeaky wheels getting greased.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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The NIMBY-ism being displayed by SOME of the residents is really disappointing.
It is important to remember that less than 20% of the residents have signed a petition or expressed displeasure with the AAC's plans. Janet, Pitbull / Olive and a few of the other opponents of the AAC's plans want to give the impression that this is a community untied against this the hostel. The reality is that Janet and Pitbull / Olive represents a minority group of homeowners. What the other homeowners think about this project is not known. What we do know is that they did not sign a petition.
After wading through the meeting minutes posted online and reading this thread, I cannot see any reason for the AAC to work with Janet and Pitbull / Olive. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have their minds made up. If this project does move forward, the AAC will have to gain approval from the appropriate government agency. These processes almost always allow input from the community. Let the AAC and members of ES community (like Janet and Pitbull / Olive) work it out there.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Philo...great old picture...which leads me say that in most months when I go get water (that use to be free bawa) that parking lot above the pool is empty...maybe rent some spots from the water company/pool.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Reading the same meeting minutes it is clear that the proposed use by the AAC is allowed in the zoning.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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hard to imagine you follks in eldo springs could've done a worse job of presenting yourselves and your case.
"dingleberry" starts a thread asking all the climbers on this site to write letters or protest to the aac.
in succeeding posts, various eldo springs folks describe potential visiting climbers (and thus all the supertopo regulars) as drunks, dirtbags, corporate tools, gentrifying yuppies and pederasts. "pitbull" flails around and threatens violence and vandalism. these various views are then described as "sensible" and "consensus."
st is a pretty scruffy place, peopled by a whole lot of borderline personality types. pretty hard to make yourself look bad in that company, but you folks are managing it quite nicely.
buncha clem kaddilehopper nimbies.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Helene, the only pattern I see ... The only pattern I see is a bunch of people freaking out over something that hasn't happened yet, then taking an ineffective passive-aggressive approach to dealing with it - which immediately blows up.
200-500 yds to the property line? What about the set-back? What about this example has anything to do with Eldo?
I would still love to see an apology from Penn. That lack of one gives me the impression the AAC is two-faced, divided and without remorse - therefore incompetent as an organization. Stupid e-mails from angry people happen all day, every day. They are generally followed very quickly by an apology.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Instead of making the AAC the evil empire the locals should just be truthful and say the truth...leave our little white bread village alone, we don't want rich climbers, we don't want dirtbag climbers and we really don't want middle class climbers...period!
:-)
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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If this use is allowed by the current zoning, and the AAC can create a plan that will satisfy the legal requirements (parking, maximum building footprint, etc), then the AAC should build the hostel. As a member, I support it. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have given the AAC no reason to want to go beyond the letter of the law and work with them. IMHO the "community" concerns expressed in this thread are rooted in NIMBY-ism. The AAC has no obligation to address them.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I cannot see any reason for the AAC to work with Janet and Pitbull / Olive. Janet and Pitbull / Olive have their minds made up. If this project does move forward, the AAC will have to gain approval from the appropriate government agency. These processes almost always allow input from the community. Let the AAC and members of ES community (like Janet and Pitbull / Olive) work it out there.
Correct. It's a waste of time to try to negotiate with them. They think they can bully the AAC and the thing to do is to take the case to the zoning board, or whoever it is. There's no reason to think the locals can influence them to make an unfair decision.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Correct. It's a waste of time to try to negotiate with them. They think they can bully the AAC By calling the AAC bullies. ROTFLMAO.
Curiously there is nary a peep about this on Mountain Project.
Curious as to why the Nimbys are frothing their brew on ST but not on MP?
Perhaps the strength of their assumed consensus is as bogus as their math.
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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actually the sewer lid is the population number which is 218 residents, over 105 signatures. At least 30 of the 218 residents are children under 16. The 500 number is everyone from the market to the state park entrance. The sewer lid is just where the Eldorado Springs elevation sign is.
I cannot speak for the rest of the community and their desires for the Post Office Building. I have no problem with the building use now. Christian has his climbing clothing company and Andy Mcewan uses the other spot for musicians to practice rest etc while working at the Crucible recording studio, which a lot of local musicians support.
Andy and Christian have both been long time Eldo residents and Andy has has his recording studio for a long time.
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pitbull
Mountain climber
Co, NY, WV
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IT IS ME The PITBULL!!! BACK OFF PEEPS. WHY ARE YOU BEING SO RUDE TO PEOPE JUST VOICING THEIR OPINION. THANKS FOR BLAMING ME FOR ALL THE HOSTILITY YEAH RIGHT IT IS ALL ME NO ONE PUT UP ANY CRUDE PHOTOS OR COMMENTS.
I'M DONE INITIALLY I WAS DOING THIS FOR SH#TS AND GIGGLES..BECAUSE I DONT GIVE A HOOT ABOUT CLIMBERS OR ELDORADO RESIDENTS AND THEIR ATTEMPT AT PEACEFUL NEGOTIATIONS GO FOR IT ALL OF YOU TEAR EACH OTHER UP. IM GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO BE NEIGHBORS WITH ANY OF YOU. THERE IS NO CLIMBING ON FLORIDA BEACHES IM OUT NOW TIME TO F*#K WITH SURFERS ALTHOUGH THEY ARE MUCH COOLER THAN CLIMBERS AND ACTUALLY PREFER LOCALS ONLY!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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^^^ the definition of rude.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Thanks Helene for providing the correct population figures for the "town" of Eldorado Springs and the Sewer LID (local improvement district). The residents served by the LID (218) are the ones affected by the proposal and the ones who have "voter fire power" in regards to this proposal.
Thanks Again for the numbers. Steve Sangdahl
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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I am sorry for the tension the AAC has stirred up between the climbing community and Eldorado residents( sewer lid 218). First off, the meeting on June 11 between the residents and Phil Powers was amicable and felt productive. So please many of you have friends and have lived here yourself off and on through the years. I used to host a thanksgiving gathering at my old place and many a climber would be there like Kevin Gallager,Wade, John and Beth...All great people who have been great neighbors.
Bottom Line the Post Office Building cannot accommodate the needs of the guests and the community simultaneously. The size of the lot and the AAC hostel are incompatible. Can someone answer what benefit a private club of 12,000 will have on a community of 218 already burdened by 350,00 park visitors a year and seasonal pool guests. The residents of Eldorado are just asking people respect our time as a neighborhood for at least 10 hours a day? The rest of the time it is everybody's gateway to the state park.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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A yoga retreat would likely be OK...
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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there is already a yoga ashram
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Todd there already is a long standing Ashram.
I am sorry for the tension the AAC has stirred up between the climbing community and Eldorado residents Where as I am glad for the greater civility from the residents posting here I take issue with the repeated implication that the AAC alone has stirred up this controversy. It seems that a few vocal locals have had more than a hand in the conflict as well. It would be nice if you would be "transparent" enough to acknowledge this.
And please let's not forget how many times the larger climbing community has come to the defense of the residents of ES. Defeating the quarry and the super towers are just two examples that come to mind. The small population of ES residents would have not stood a chance in defeating these two terrible ideas without the strong support of the larger community of climbers.
And as thanks you have labeled climbers as deadbeats, pedophiles and other undesirables. How shameful and selfish.
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Dr. X
Big Wall climber
X- Town
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F@#K Coloradans, and their prissy "don't make Colorado like California" attitude.
I'm all for a 4 star, all inclusive, Hilton resort being built at the base of the canyon, and Gondola service to the crags. Just like Cham, baby!
No parking? That';s why they make D9 Loaders. No problemo.
O yeah, "Verve" baby!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Hey pitbull, I hate to break it to you but climbers surf in Florida too.
There is no escape.
Surfs up baby! Come visit me in Pensacola.
Yarrr!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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. . . a community of 218 already burdened by 350,00 park visitors a year and seasonal pool guests.
i'm hearing a lot of variations on this theme from you es folks: buying property on a historic destination resort on the edge of a state park is apparently a helluva burden for you to carry. you seem to feel you suffer the torments of the damned.
you all bought property in a historic destination resort-- the only reason your property has any value now is because the greater climbing community and the state of colorado made the canyon into a public park. it's like the park is some imposition you have to carry for the rest of us.
i'm starting to feel like the state of colorado should've just let the free market and private property right work their magic and turn the damn thing into a quarry.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The place was going to be a quarry, the houses would be worth nothing if the state didn't step in.
Kinda like buying a house ona golf course and getting pissed when golf balls hit your house or to many golfer show up on a weekend.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Finally looked in on this "colorado" thread.
roflmfao!!!
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I am sorry for the tension the AAC has stirred up between the climbing community and Eldorado residents...
I do not see it this way at all. Penn's response to the "community" was extreme and unpolished. However, based on the behavior I have seen from the ES residents on this thread, I can understand the sentiment that he expressed.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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F@#K Coloradans, and their prissy "don't make Colorado like California" attitude.
lol, this is true. But its the Coloradans own fault for developing all the open space into condos. Who did they think would buy them? If its any consolation, Coloradans like people from the East Coast less. (I'm one, by the way, an easterner with a cookie cutter condo in Aurora) Although, there is enough population in Colorado already which is why I'm organizing a petition ....
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Just wanted to say Thanks to Mark Kroese and Phil Powers for returning my email today.
Very much appreciated.
Janet Robinson.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The way I look at it as a member of the larger climbing community, the AAC was representing climbers when it started looking for a place for visiting climbers to stay in the Boulder area, but especially at Eldorado Canyon.
This proposal was unacceptable to a number of residents in Eldorado Springs and they want it stopped.
Climbers, by and large, think it's a great idea, some residents think not.
The problem came about when the residents went on to justify their position, they ended up judging the entire climbing community, certainly a form of bias where all members of that community are judged one and the same, as basically a threat to the community.
If there is tension in the climbing community, it's over the characterizations that the Eldorado Springs posters have both implicitly and explicitly presented regarding climbers on this thread.
If (when?) I visit Eldo, my main impression of the people of Eldo Springs will be as they have represented themselves here.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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I love this thread! you have a bunch of ES residents that likely partake in ground walnut shell colonics to clear their heads using a broad brush to characterize all climbers as undesirable visitors to their unpaved community.
Of course a few of these climbers are doctors, lawyers, physicists, intelligence analysts, engineers, politicians, wounded veterans, firefighters, policemen, writers, painters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters. These are the people that stepped in to help save your canyon; and yet not a single f-ing one of them would be deemed to be a worthy visitor to this small community of NIMBYs. You are no better than the people that build a house next to an historic orchard, then bitch about the dust and noise from the farming operation while peach juice dribbles down your chins.
It is my fervent hope that the AAC bulldoze the PO building and erect a 10 story glass and concrete edifice that includes its own parking garage, with a mural of an erect middle finger painted on the side; and I only wish that because its slightly more likely to happen than a comet impacting in your piece of hell neighborhood.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Bob D posted;
The place was going to be a quarry, the houses would be worth nothing if the state didn't step in.
Kinda like buying a house ona golf course and getting pissed when golf balls hit your house or to many golfer show up on a weekend.
Bingo!
A corollary in my mind occurred in Crested Butte last century. Outside investors and local spec builders developed an area to the immediate south above town called the "Bench". They built gaudy McMansions and architectural abortions with walls of north facing glass to capture the beauty of Crested Butte Mountain. The owners of these totally out of character behemoths prided them selves so much in their vacation trophy homes that they kept all the lights on 24/7/365. They themselves only showed up once or twice a year though the empty buildings used energy non stop. OK private property build what you want I get it. Even though I thought the trophy homes were excessive and wasteful it was there right to squander money as they saw fit. Problem arose when these so called "locals" started trying to prohibit other's access to the long used hiking terrain of the Bench. A handful of well to-dos tried to pass city laws that would prohibit people from walking their dogs on the public lands around their property. It seems the mere thought that they just might see some doggie wee wee or puppy pies filled them with such dread that they were sure their own personal paradises would be ruined for sure. Thankfully the greater good prevailed and they all just got along..
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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laugh-worthy post above
Here's the deal, and it's pretty obvious. The AAC will build the hostel, and will pretend to "care" about the locals' "legitimate concerns".
There is no way this scenario does not unfold.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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If (when?) I visit Eldo, my main impression of the people of Eldo Springs will be as they have represented themselves here.
I will never forget this dialog no matter what the outcome. A parallel is San Juan Island up here; my great grandparents had a 40-acre sheep ranch with a 180-degree view from the Gulf Islands to Port Angeles (http://www.marvistaresort.com);. It's now essentially a hostel and has stayed as it was back when my grandmother was a little girl in 1900. Million dollar estates all around, but that's America in 2013. Get used to the change, ES.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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So many first-time posters have vetted their opinions here.
Kind of frightening how the bees swarm the internet hive to protect their perceived nest.
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Kneebar
Trad climber
Columbus, Ohio
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Jul 10, 2013 - 11:14am PT
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Is there anything from the beginning or now that the Eldo residents would except at the the site? If not what is the point of communication other then being whipped.
Ken
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 10, 2013 - 11:21am PT
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^^^^MMJ store could be a good alternative use LOL
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
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Its refreshing to see the residents of Crested Butte being given credit for objecting to the NEW OVERNIGHT "vacationing" visitors and the negative effect they had on the residents quality of life.
I was also fortunate to call Crested Butte my home from 1990 to 1995. I am familiar with the intelligent, calm locals who live there.
If you have been to both Eldorado Springs and Crested Butte you will know there are many similiarities to both towns.
I know the residents of the small town of Crested Butte would have a similiar response to those in Eldorado Springs if their school bus stop was to be obliterated and their delicate sewer system compromised.
Janet Robinson
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jopay
climber
so.il
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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That was probably some expensive sewer system, would have to rock cut it I imagine, and is it connected to some other municipal system or is it a mini treatment system. Former plumbing contractor from the mid west I'm always intrigued by how the utilities are provided for with so much bedrock. Eldorado is a special place, I hope the best decision can be arrived at.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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Its refreshing to see the residents of Crested Butte being given credit for objecting to the NEW OVERNIGHT "vacationing" visitors and the negative effect they had on the residents quality of life.
Well Janet I brought up CB for two reasons. One is it offers several similarities with ES and second because I have a connection since the 70's there as well. I think you have somewhat skewed what my intention was to fit your entrenched argument. The Local residents fought for and won access to the open lands of the Bench not just for their use but for ALL visitors to CB. The Bench was and still is a wonderful asset to the community and other than the private property lines it is open to everyone to enjoy. The locals fought against the other "locals" who had tried to impose exclusive access. Those other "localls were certainly only occasional residents but the were also private property owners who had rights to their land but failed in their attempt to impose NIBYISM on the surrounding land.
Crested Butte is better for it.
Having been very connected to the Gunnison / Crested Butte area since 1975 I can with some assurance disagree with you regarding the CB locals response to something akin to what the AAC has proposed. It is my firm belief that a large majority of the affected residents would welcome a Climber's Lodge / Hostel. That's not to say that a small percentage of the "I got mine now go away" Nimby's wouldn't vociferously disagree. It is interesting to note that many of the emotionally charged arguments foisted by the CB Nimbys in the fight for the Bench mirror exactly those used by some residents of ES regarding the AAC climber's Lodge. They also tried to assassinate the character of the other land users. Land users who fought tooth and nail to protect CB and it's spectacular environs from the misguided attempt by the Climax Molybdenum Co to waste the Red Lady Mountain. And for their hard work (by the way the CB locals alone would have never stood a chance standing up to the mining co without much broader support) the were labeled as despicably as the Eldo climbers have been. The Nimby's efforts to denigrate the other land users ultimately back fired on them and some still have egg on their faces.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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Just wanted to say Thanks to Mark Kroese and Phil Powers for returning my email today.
Very much appreciated.
Janet Robinson.
That is nice that they have peeked out from behind their supposed veil of secrecy.
So Janet what did they say to you. Can we insist on your "transparency"?
Given the frothy protest about lack of AAC transparency it seems only fair that you should be held to the same standard that you demand. Doesn't it?
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:34am PT
In almost thirty years of living here, I've never encountered or heard of any negative confrontation.
Oh c,mon Neal, your memory starting to go.
Tell us how many times you have been mugged walking home. I can recall at least three times. The ES residents have every right to be concerned their children will be sodomized by visiting climbers.
Think of the children!
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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Hostel in Eldo...there goes the neighborhood.
Yeah I'm rollin' down Rodeo(Eldo) wit a shotgun
These people ain't seen a brown skin man
Since their grandparents bought one
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
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That is nice that they have peeked out from behind their supposed veil of secrecy.
So Janet what did they say to you. Can we insist on your "transparency"?
Given the frothy protest about lack of AAC transparency it seems only fair that you should be held to the same standard that you demand. Doesn't it?
100% agree. Janet has been more than willing to post other correspondences. Why not this one? Where is your transparency now?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
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I still don't understand why the AAC would want to build a lodge at Eldo. Sure, its not a bad place to climb, but it also has a lot of polished and loose rock and it's definitely not the place it used to be 20 or 30 years ago.
I climbed there a bit back in the 90's and I thought the place was great. Now, I tend to only go there with visiting climbers so they can tick it off and see some of the history.
If the AAC really wants to spend up to a million dollars building a lodge, how about a campground or lodge close to Yosemite? That would be a worthwhile goal, since Camp 4 sucks these days.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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It is curious that some have used this opportunity to dis on Eldo as a climbing destination.
How long have you been climbing JohnMac? Eldo is in fact "all that and a bag of chips".
Just because it isn't a colorfully taped gym or grid bolted choss pile and that it scares the sputum out of modern climbers doesn't mean it's significance is dimmed in any way.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
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Phil...John has a right to his opinion. I tend to agree after climbing there for almost 40 years...some really great and classic routes, most not nearly as run out with modern gear as they used to be and new additions are at a almost stand still pace because of regulations.
It is not the destination that it once was...period. Doing the Edge 30 times is so out of style. :-)
I kinda like the idea of a hostel closer to all the areas giving visiting climbing a choice of where to climb.
The really funny part about this whole deal is that the ES residents really think they are a progressive bunch...further could it be from the truth. A scare bunch would be a better title.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
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I still don't understand why the AAC would want to build a lodge at Eldo. Sure, its not a bad place to climb, but it also has a lot of polished and loose rock and it's definitely not the place it used to be 20 or 30 years ago.
What catastrophe has befallen Eldo in the interim?
Or is it that you have climbed most of the classic trad routes there and have moved on to other pursuits?
There are many incredible routes in Eldo and that has not (and will not) change.
Having a place where traveling climbers can stay without having to spend huge sums on hotels and rental cars (or knowing someone who lives nearby that you can "visit") -- is the epitome of anti-elitist. However, based upon the comments registered here, the same cannot be said for those opposing this rather modest proposal.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
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Climbing areas are not "GREAT" because they have the biggest baddest numbers. They are great for the history and development they inspired and continue to inspire. I'd dare say that a climber ticking off a clean onsight of Jules Verne at 5.11b R has accomplished something of far greater significance to themselves than doing the latest 5.whocares at the "In Crag" D'Jour.
Or by that contrary reasoning areas like the Black Canyon are utterly insignificant and might as well be avoided because there are no 5.whocares there.
Bob how well do you remember your first trip up the Edge?
Was it significant to you or just another couple of rope lengths?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
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looking wrote: What catastrophe has befallen Eldo in the interim?
I don't know where you been the last 20-30 years but the climbing scene has changed along with the kinda routes that climber pursue.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
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That is your opinion Phil, done both and it all feel good to me, but that is just me.
The funny part about Jules Verne is the first pitch is the money pitch (which seldom gets climbs) as other pitch the fall is long but safe.
Phil...it is funny to see you doing the same thing that you accuse John of doing.
Phil..I remember it well..it was like a sport climb back then (1978) using all the fixed gear. :-)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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What is that, what am I doing?
I dissed no climbing area. Only the notion that only the biggest numbers or latest fads matter to the climbing world.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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Phil......something about Crag dujour. Ok..got it"latest 5.whocares at the "In Crag" D'Jour"
Maybe John doesn't like eldo for the same reason you don't like 5.who cares in Crag d'jour.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
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Oh yeah Luvgas, I guess after seeing Stallone in Cliffhanger we scared that mugger off in Central Park so he doesn't really count.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Eldo is rad. Always has been, always will be.
Just because "older" climbers become become tired repeating climbs, that does not mean the younger generation will not find extreme enjoyment climbing the classics and even the more obscure.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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Bob, perhaps you missed the sarcasm. I am well aware that people don't necessarily want to work that hard to do a 5.10 or 5.11 -- hence the crowds at the chossy sport crag.
Christian stated much the same thing -- that Eldo was so 30 years ago:
But i get it.. Boulder and the front range really does need a place where climbers can stay. But they aren't coming here to climb in Eldo and making them stay in Eldo isn't going to do them or the locals any favors. I walk the canyon and the Fowler trail high on the south side, with my daughter almost four afternoons a week and even on a perfect afternoon, often i can count the number of climbers on a single hand. Climbers come to Colorado to Boulder or for the competitions or for the sport climbing and Eldo grand old crag that it is doesn't have high enough concentrations of any of that to be appealing to the vast majority of visitors these days.
But, does he understand that his argument undermines the other locals that are spreading fear that the Hostel will cause the area to be overrun by and further burden the residents?
These two propositions are contradictory:
That no one is interested in climbing in Eldo; and
That Eldo is already overburdened and the Hostel will be an attractive force.
Which is it? Either, Both ...or perhaps Neither.
___
Even so, the great lines are still there to be climbed -- even if there are not lines at their base.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
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Bob I don't dislike them just question their overall significance. The current attention of top climbers and the Machiavellian mob moves around like an itinerant worker. Smith Rocks one year or two, Rifle for a few etc. Eldo will always be a significant destination worthy of a Climber's Lodge/hostel no matter where the Crag D'Jour is..
By the way as much as I love it Eldo it is not even my favorite climbing destination.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Looking wrote: Bob, perhaps you missed the sarcasm. I am well aware that people don't necessarily want to work that hard to do a 5.10 or 5.11 -- hence the crowds at the chossy sport crag.
I didn't miss it and I see it in the above. This is not a sport vs trad thing. It is about a hostel in a small town near a popular climbing/recreation area.
Phil wrote: The current attention of top climbers and the Machiavellian mob moves around like an itinerant worker. Smith Rocks one year or two, Rifle for a few etc
And so will Smith, Rifle, Shelf, New River, Red River Gorge and so on.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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It is about a hostel in a small town near a popular climbing/recreation area.
Hey now that IS a good idea. I wonder if anyone thought of it before? Eldo could sure use one.
:-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 10, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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I just wrote an email in support of the hostel. I like the idea of the hostel for me and potentially my family to stay at. I was also motivated by the responses of the locals here who were hostile, prejudice, and only seemed to address what they want, nothing about what is good for other people.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 10, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
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Having followed this thread since its inception, my take ( for what it is worth/not much) is as follows:
Eldo residents that likely moved to Eldo because of the natural beauty and recreational opportunities now are not huge fans of the state park.
The state park brings in many people on good weather days and this creates traffic, parking issues, threats to their children's safety and much much more.
The vocal residents that are not in favor of an ACC hostel because that would in turn bring more folks ( max. 20!) into the community after dark. Community population is 500+ residents or 200+ depending on who you talk to. Support for or against is also unknown...depending on who you talk to.
Eldo residents already have to deal with annoying climbers all day so now, they really do not want them there at night as the are likely to rape, pillage and plunder. Think of the children!!!!
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steve shea
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
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I love climbing historic routes. History is important. Eldo is a treasure of early rock climbing development not only for the front range but Colorado and the whole country. To me that is the most important factor in all of this. Preserving the experience, educating first timers and giving those who visit a reasonable place to stay. Not only should they build the hostel, but attendant to it, The Layton Kor Memorial Museum. Nothing big just a display like the old one at Jenny Lake Ranger Station. I like history. My first ever day in Chamonix I got a bottle of vin rouge at the PP and went to the cemetery to view the headstones. What an experience. The history of alpine climbing. The AAC could do something great if given the chance.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
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Steve that is exactly why I support the AAC in this proposal.
Sure Pad people in chinos and beanies are not flocking to the trad leads of Eldo. So what.
New developing climbers will always be inspired by the grand history and bold climbs of Eldo.
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steve shea
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
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Pad people, that is funny! Yes lets get it done.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
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Neversummer that cracked me up.
The Nimbyrena.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
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Where's Odub when you need a good ballad?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
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Very witty turn of logic Gasoline! Funny!
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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If Eldorado Springs cannot accommodate 22 people it's suggested that they pass a law forbidding the current residents of to reproduce, to have house guests, or to increase the number of vehicles owned or operated as it will overwhelm the community's sewer system, parking, and other vital resources.
LOL! All of the "arguments" put forth by Janet and Pitbull / Olive are pretty transparent. When all is said and done, this is all about NIMBY-ism.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
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The hostel is a great idea.
The residents of Eldorado Springs have three legitimate issues:
1. Parking. Parking in the town of Eldorado Springs is really difficult at times. Always has been.
2. Sewer. The expensive, newly installed sewer system has capacity for about 20 more residents. It might have been several decades before this was reached, from random, occasional remodels. The new hostel will take up the entire spare capacity.
3. Location. Since visitors would need to drive just to get to this hostel, they will need cars. SInce they have cars then the hostel might be better located a bit farther east, out of the narrow, congested canyon itself, out to where there would be more space for outdoor cooking, drying clothes, parking, whatever. This would be more pleasant for both residents and visitors, a win-win situation.
The residents themselves? Just because a few posters here have painted them as selfish nimby types does not make it so.
Either way, glad to hear from Janet that the AAC is communicating with the locals.
Hope they can work something out.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 10, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
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Crunch, I respectfully disagree. There are really only two legitimate concerns; parking and sewer. Those issues, along with building codes and CC&Rs, will be addressed in a review process run buy the appropriate government organization. If the AAC cannot submit plans that satisfy all the building requirements, then the project will not happen. It is as simple as that.
Janet, Pitbull / Olive and many of the residents that posted here seem to not want the hostel in their community for a variety of other reasons, most of which to me reek of NIMBY-ism. Sorry, Janet, but you don't get to dictate what another landowner does with their property, as long as it is legal.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jul 10, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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Do you mean to tell me that family Christmas dinners, with out of town visitors will blow up the ES sewer system? Or that someone was so bloody stupid that they sized the sewer system for the 218 or 570, or whatever the hell number it is population? Do you seriously believe that ANY of us are gullible enough to believe your b.s. sewer argument?
At least be honest for god's sake, and admit that you would be REALLY HAPPY if you could gate the road and have Eldorado Canyon as your own private backyard, because that's really what you're trying to pull off here.
I grieve to the depths of my soul that I spent 31 years of my life working to defend my country, which by definition includes you self absorbed, selfish a-holes. You think you're doing something noble, because someone has to do it, and you accept the sacrifices for the greater good; and then you find that some "citizens" consider you unworthy of visiting their community. They do it by defaming you, and flat out lying, not just to protect their little niche, but to prevent you from accessing something that is rightfully yours.
School bus stops, sewers, parking (you have seen the historical pics right? ) That's the best you can do? How about oxygen consumption? CO2 production?
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
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I'm with Sal. How can the sewer not handle 20 extra people?
And Boo fckin Hoo, lots of people drive through your "town" to go into a State Park. You somehow didn't know there was a beautiful and world famous Park at the end of the road?
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duke of puke
climber
boulder, co
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Jul 11, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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Okay, the voice of reason here.
First off, the folks that talk of paving the one 10th of a mile to get to the entrance have to be sport climbers. Tell me I'm wrong, but those people are insane on insisting that all has to be smooth and clean or it's just _such_ an inconvenience, to them _and_ their cars. People like this are how I got my name.
Second, didn't pitbull suggest that the low lifes will increase vagrant-ism, thereby causing more cop calls, and then suggest he'd do things that cause more cop calls? Seems contradictory. Contradictory people are to be ignored.
Third, I've been poppin' into Eldo for 30 yrs now, and it just seems a Hostel at the mouth of this one-road canyon is a dumb idea. Eldo is not the same as the Tetons. If they were serious about a Hostel in a place that can absorb it, they'd put it in Boulder so people wouldn't have to drive there at night anyways. Even Camp 4 had the Lizard Lounge. There's not one in Eldo. And if the AAC had any smarts at all, they'd put it up in Estes Park, where's there's more than one dirt road, and the expanse behind it is far more copious, just like the Tetons. RMNP camp sites are catered to RVs and screaming kids so there's more than a small demand. And there's many a Lizard Lounge to be had right off the paved roads!
Fourth, thanks for the videos guys. They made my day!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 11, 2013 - 11:09am PT
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A low impact walk to and from Hostel has many benefits are larger "campground" doesn't.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 11, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Estes already has a hostel.
Fact: Most climbers are going to get in their car and drive to Avalon to climb grid bolted 7's that are rated 9+.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 11, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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^^^If you offer to stand at the park entrance with a sign denouncing the hostel/lodge, Pitbull or similar will certainly put you up for a few nights.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 11, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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Contrary to the opinion of some on this thread, my impression was that it's a tremendously beautiful place and the climbing looks absolutely stellar. I'd love to climb there but there doesn't appear to be an easy destination for someone without a vehicle. I need to be able to reside somewhere in fairly close proximity to the climbing. Is there any cheap/free camping nearby (my bowel movements tend to be very small if that's a factor).
Did anyone on this thread express an opinion that Eldo is not a beautiful place? I must have missed that. While beauty is subjective, I've never heard anyone who likes rocks/cliffs/canyons/mountains dis Eldo from that perspective.
The climbing is debatable; I think everyone would have to admit that the better routes are very good, but there are a lot of schwag routes, choss, short cruxes, and less than ideal pro(in large part because of very strict rules on adding fixed pro). I'd say it's clearly a very good local area, but perhaps something less than a major travel destination. As is often observed, there's a reason why you see so many Greenies in WY and UT and elsewhere, but not so many of them around here!
There is no cheap/free camping nearby in the sense that it is at all workable without a car. If you have a car, you can make some things work, but it's still not close; be prepared to drive a ways.
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newAAC
Trad climber
Denver, Colorado
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Jul 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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All,
I have to say that within all the banter here there has been a fair bit of useful input. Thank you for that.
Pasted below is the text of the letter I just sent to the Eldorado Community. The bottom line is that we are not going to buy the Post Office building. In conversations with our members and others, we have come to learn that there is real demand for something and we are going to keep looking.
One story before I move on to the letter. In 1983 I made my first climbing road trip to the West. My first stop, in my 1965 pick up truck (still driving it, now with half a million miles on it), was Eldorado. The camping in what is now the lower parking lot was just what I needed. Hopefully we can find something similar for climbers today.
Here's the letter:
_
July 10, 2013
Dear Eldorado Springs Community Members and Other Interested Parties;
I want to inform you that after a great deal of thoughtful investigation into the possibility of turning the Eldorado Springs Post Office building into a lodging facility, the American Alpine Club has decided not to proceed with the purchase of the building.
Our investigations into this project have been comprehensive. We have looked into zoning, parking, traffic, impact on local systems and to the community in general. We listened to local citizens. We have assessed the demand for lodging from the climbing community. We filtered all this new information through the lens we use to make decisions about when and where to pursue lodging for climbers.
The American Alpine Club seeks to get involved when notable climbing destinations – such as Eldorado Canyon – are not served by inexpensive lodging options. If a need for lodging exists at an iconic climbing area, we try to establish campgrounds or dormitory-style facilities for the climbing community. Typically we locate these facilities within walking distance to the crag.
Climbers seeking to test their skills either in the Canyon or other Front Range climbing locations need better access to reasonably priced places to stay. Given our decision not to move forward with the purchase of the Post Office, this demand will remain unfulfilled for now.
In this process, we learned that the number of climbers seeking lodging in the Front Range is greater than the Post Office space can meet. As many of you have pointed out, there is simply no room to grow or expand in the Post Office building. The demand for lodging from the climbing community suggests that we need a property that can be expanded over time – even if we must delay the project and compromise on our walking-distance criterion.
Eldorado Canyon remains the central Front Range objective for traveling climbers. So we will continue our search for something with a little more room to grow, but still within easy carpooling or biking distance from the beautiful place many of you live beneath.
I hope we find a great location for climbers who visit the Front Range. If we do we will strive to be great neighbors there. I also hope we can count on you to come out in support of our plan if we find something that is a better fit.
Respectfully yours,
Phil Powers
AAC Executive Director
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 11, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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Re: where to camp for free. There's national forest land up by Rocky Mtn Park. Also possible to guerrilla camp up on magnolia road in Coal Creek Canyon but beware all the criminals doing the same.
* I forgot to mention, there are some old mine shafts in Boulder Canyon that supposedly have people living in them. The locals may be hostile there, I have never tried it.
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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Jul 11, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Word Phil good choice
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Helene Donovan
Social climber
Eldorado Springs
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Jul 11, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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Thank you AAC, Phil Powers and Mark Kroese, AAC is lucky to have such great leaders! You can count on my support for an alternative spot for lodging or camping for climbers in Boulder County.
Thanks again for making a difficult decision and weighing the options for the climbers and the Eldorado community.
Have a great summer!
Helene
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 11, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
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Phil--I like the letter, I am not an AAC member but will consider joining, good luck.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
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Also possible to guerrilla camp up on magnolia road in Coal Creek Canyon
Magnolia Rd. isn't actually in Coal Creek Canyon...it's off Peak to Peak just S. of Ned. And it's not the place it was after the huge Forest Thinning Project (clear cutting) that just took place up there.
Phil, thanks for the diplomacy. Here's hoping Burris is able to learn from this and adopt an attitude more representative of your organization's philosophy.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
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Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 11, 2013 - 11:55am PT
What are the options for camping at Eldo now?
Is there any cheap/free camping nearby (my bowel movements tend to be very small if that's a factor
Just drop some acid then head to The Sink like last time.
Meet up with some cool folks then go back to their place and listen to Pink Floyd.
I don't remember any sleeping and I don't think you can do that on a daily basis.
The FS land surrounding Nederland is the closest free legal camping.
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Janet Robinson
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
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Thanks to all the climbers and residents who have shared their thoughts regarding the hostel.
Thank - you Super Topo for giving us the opportunity.
Thank- you Phil Powers, Mark Kroese and the AAC Board for considering all the issues and for reaching a timely decision. Thanks also Phil for updating both the Eldo community and Super Topo.
All the Best to the AAC with their search for the right spot.
Janet Robinson.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 11, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
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The FS land surrounding Nederland is the closest free legal camping. Actually it's probably either Gross or Lefthand - which one is better will depend on how capable your 4x4 is and your tolerance for firearms.
The 101 on FS camping in the USA - find the "MVUM" or "Motor Vehicle Use Map" for the area. It is the final word and legal documentation on where you can legally drive off road and camp on FS land. Check the legend for "Dispersed Camping". Google these terms.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 11, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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Lefthand and Gross have militant homeowners nearby that will report your ass to the sheriff if they see you out there with a full camp.
I'm talking about setting up a tent and leaving it there undisturbed type of camping. If you call camping coming in at 11pm and out of there by 6am then I guess your recommendations are valid.
You can do the same thing driving up Boulder Canyon, parking at one of the turnouts then hiking five minutes into the woods to get some shuteye, but that's not camping, it's getting by.
I still recommend the ACC should look for properties on University Hill to replace the International Hostel that recent closed. Most of the fixer uppers that are already zoned for 20 plus are in the $625K to $800K range.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 11, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
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Lefthand and Gross have militant homeowners nearby that will report your ass to the sheriff if they see you out there with a full camp. Yeah the locals hate it, but they can't do sh#t. It's government land. There is legal camping in both areas. 14 days, all the usual rules. Check the map. The sheriff can do nothing. Rednecks and thieves are a bigger issue. The camping at Gross is rather nice, actually, but you need a 4x4, and though it's close to Boulder as the crow flies, it's a long drive, even with the shortcuts a heavier 4x4 can get you. Lefthand is a popular OHV and shooting area...
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 11, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
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So it's better to spend an hour rolly pollying up a 4 wheel drive road where the local's are hostile than a 30 minute drive zipping up Boulder Canyon where you have several restaurants, bars, live music, and legal MMJ access because on the map it looks closer?
Obviously you have never bandit camped around town.
I love how this thread keeps rolling along.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 11, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
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Thanks Phil, I'd not thought of the idea of the 20-person hostel being too small right from the get-go. Makes sense.
The Post Office site would for sure have little chance for expansion. Hope you find somewhere suitable.
For current camping opportunities, Golden Gate State Park, just down the road to the south, is about as close as any theft-free, leave-your-tent-up place:
http://www.parks.state.co.us/PARKS/GOLDENGATECANYON/CAMPING/Pages/GoldenGateCanyonCamping.aspx
A nice summer alternative is one of the many campsites around Estes Park.
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kcangi
climber
Eldorado Springs, CO
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Most climbing from downtown Boulder is within five miles, give or take a football field.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:18am PT
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Another self righteous post by KC. How much in taxes do you pay in Eldo last year?
This thing was dead in the water from the start..I think the AAC had the right intention trying to provide some sort of affordable lodging for climbers in the Boulder area. The best of luck to them on their mission, I hope they find a better location and better folks to deal with in their quest.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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I never said or implied it was about me, and it isn't about you Ken, it is and was about affordable lodging for climbers in the Boulder area.
I'm glad the AAC is moving on, I have no doubt that they will find a better option in the Boulder area and I really have changed my opinion of them from this thread.
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kcangi
climber
Eldorado Springs, CO
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:44am PT
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Lovegasoline, Boulder Canyon could be a candidate for a climber's lodge, or Gunbarrel, for that matter. There are several areas within ten miles which would work. Maybe climbers should solicit the state park system about installing a campground. After all, they are the managers of the climbing venue in question. Why should the juxtaposing, residential neighborhood have to bare the impact of a bunkhouse that won't even offer dining accommodations? All we have here is a local convenient mart/liquor store 3 miles up the road. Picture the scenario for yourself. And plug in the "fact" that this is a neighborhood. How are visitors without vehicles going to get to the store for food and down to Boulder? It's a bad idea. The closest grocery store is almost 9 miles away, and there are no buses from here.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:48am PT
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KC...have you ever stayed in a hostel? I doubt it...all the ones I have stayed at (50++) have offered food and kitchen services.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:58am PT
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Who have I talked sh#t about? As to climbing in Eldo I climbed there way before you ever showed up and continue to climb there now..I just don't check in with or your friend/locals.
I doubt that you ever have travel and stayed in hostels as you might not be so jaded in your thought process.
You don't have to listen or response to me..you just can't help yourself.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 12, 2013 - 01:01am PT
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A nice summer alternative is one of the many campsites around Estes Park.
Maybe, but is anyone really going to camp in Estes Park in the summer and drive to Eldo to climb??!!!
On a different note, with all due respect to the people who choose to live in Eldorado Springs, I don't think one needs to know the names of whatever ragamuffins happen to be there at any particular time in order to have a valid opinion as to county regulations and their application. Last time I checked, there are a whole lot more of us (people who live in City and County of Boulder) than there are of you. I didn't support the planned hostel either, just sayin.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 01:06am PT
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Boulder is the logical spot and within striking distances of many great routes and areas. Finding the proper location will be hard but I think it will be great asset once they do.
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kcangi
climber
Eldorado Springs, CO
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Jul 12, 2013 - 01:17am PT
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Sorry for the confusion, Lovegasoline.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 12, 2013 - 01:58am PT
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And you wonder why Eldo residents don't want a climber hostel here.
No, I don't, I know why: NIMBYism.
Pretty clear. Happened to work out in this case cuz it was kind of a dumb plan anyway. I support giving the Eldo residents all the respect and rights they deserve, but no more.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:07am PT
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Heh, I forgot about about the plastic leg & psychedelic powder.
Luvgas, hitchhiking up and down Boulder Canyon is very easy, I never had to wait more than five minutes to catch a ride. There is plenty of climbing in the Canyon with Castle Rock being the crown jewel, about ten minutes from Nederland. If Boulder Canyon was located east of the Mississippi it would be a National Park, out here, it's just another canyon.
Hitching down to Boulder, (20 mins away) most folks drop you off at the Library. From there you can walk up to Chautauqua Park, maybe 30 mins. to access the Flatirons, depending on what you want to climb there it’s another 20 mins. to an hour to the rock.
Eldo is a bit farther away, you can take a bus south down Broadway to the last stop and start hitching from there but I don’t know how easy that would be since I’ve never done it.
Best bet is to make a sign saying “Climber heading to Eldorado Springs” and you will probably catch a ride from some other knuckle dragging plebeian.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:51am PT
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Boulder as an option is simply unaffordable, due to real estate prices in the area. The only viable alternative is the State of Colorado and the State Parks system to provide a campground.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jul 12, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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And in the end.... The squeeky wheel does get the grease....again.
"If it does not fit, you must aquit!"
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
If (when?) I visit Eldo, my main impression of the people of Eldo Springs will be as they have represented themselves here.
FWIW, that is a bit short sighted, I do not think we can judge a society with such a limited data base.
It would be foolish to think this forum represents all Californian's as much as this thread represents all the residents of Eldorado Springs.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Boulder as an option is simply unaffordable, due to real estate prices in the area. The only viable alternative is the State of Colorado and the State Parks system to provide a campground.
what?! the government is good for something!
I guess this spells the doom of a resurgence of self-sufficiency among the climbing community to have its premier advocacy organization appeal to local and state government for a solution...
on second thought, maybe that's how it all works anyway.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
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An AAC "hostel" takeover of the ashram...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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An open public campground that close to the Front Range would be stampeded and overrun by Mexicans, rednecks, white trash and motorheads with their loud music, generators, broken bottles and litter - just like all the other campgrounds in the Splatte, Peak-Peak, Estes - basically everywhere. F*#king savages and Neanderthals. For climbers to get what they want, there will have to be filters and nannies.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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JLP wrote: For climbers to get what they want, there will have to be filters.
Hopefully one to keep your racist, negative ass out.
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Deekaid
climber
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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rolling rolling rolling
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 12, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
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Bum, bum, bummer.
I hope the AAC can get something done here.
Eldo is a jewel!
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
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I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and I am not surprised that the American Alpine Club has decided to not go forward with its proposed hostel project.
I moved to Eldorado Canyon in the winter of 1971. I lived in a delightful little rundown cabin with the words “We Blew Inn” written in bottle caps above the front door. The cabin was located just west of where the post office is today.
That was the period where I discovered the sport that directed my life for the next thirty five years.
For my first twenty years of climbing I spent the lion’s share of my free time doing routes and often just hanging out in that wonderful place. It is where I first encountered and shared adventures with many of the lifelong friends. Many of which I still have today.
When I moved away from that little cabin I continued to spend many weekends in Eldorado. We would rent a space in the little campground across the bridge from Supremacy Slab. It was a great little camp ground. We got to know Mr. Fowler pretty well and often he would hang out with us and shoot the breeze till early evening. Often we would be the only ones in that little camp area. It wasn’t cheep but by today’s standards it was a steal.
There is something magic in waking early on a summer morning to the sound of the creek and after coffee and a bite to eat, shouldering your pack and going out climbing till lunch. Then we would hang out by the creek during the heat of the day and then do another route in the cool of the evening.
I know that it’s probably a pipe dream but I would love to see a small (walk in only) campground maintained by the state Park Service in that same spot in Eldorado Canyon.
Why wouldn’t it work? Many Colorado State parks have campgrounds.
BTW:I am planning on climbing some of my favorite moderate traditional classics in Eldorado Canyon in early August while I attend to some issues at my house in Bear Creek Canyon. I might be looking for some mid week partners to hook up with if my regular guys are busy with work.
Olaf Mitchell
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jul 12, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
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would be stampeded and overrun by Mexicans
JLP,
The above is part of what you wrote. If you had any courage, you'd have signed your name. There is a lot of ignorant crap posted on this site, but this is top ten material.
Dana Bartlett
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 12, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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JLP said:
An open public campground that close to the Front Range would be stampeded and overrun by Mexicans, rednecks, white trash and motorheads...
You are a bigoted, cowardly as#@&%e.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 12, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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just curious. using white trash is not bigoted but mexican is?
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jul 13, 2013 - 01:26am PT
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I'm not sure that I see the offense, unless it was the omission of the modifier "Americans", as in Mexican Americans, either of which beats the hell out of Spic, which is roughly equivalent to "cheap white trash" e.g. residents of E.S.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jul 13, 2013 - 08:36am PT
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just curious. using white trash is not bigoted but mexican is?
No, the use of white trash is also very offensive.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 13, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
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I thought JLP was being sarcastic... poking at both the inclusiveness of the Eldorado Springs opponents and to the bourgeois affectations of the climbing community...
...that't the way JLP rolls...
but some feel that sarcasm has to be recognizable as such to "qualify." Obviously this interpretation of JLP's post is not universal.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 13, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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O-Man, get a hold of me when your in town if you have an open day for craggin'.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Jul 14, 2013 - 12:17am PT
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QuO-Man, get a hold of me when your in town if you have an open day for craggin'.ote Here I sure will Phil. That would be a lot of fun!
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Turok
Trad climber
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Jul 14, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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Nice to see your post Olaf. I trust you are still getting your fair share of waves.
I began climbing in Eldorado in '66 with Dickon Arndt and Paul Sibley. I moved from Boulder to the "Rocky Roost" cabin in Eldo in the Spring of 1970. I am fortunate indeed to have purchased a small cottage on the creek in 1981 which currently serves as a rental. Although my knowledge of the community dynamic is somewhat dated, it is to some extent, comprehensive. I've seen many climbers and non-climbers come and go and a lot of changes take place. Some for the better, some for the worse. One thing remains the same, it has always been, and remains a privilege to live in the canyon. It's just a hell of a lot more expensive than it used to be.
When Jeff Lowe and I started the International Alpine School in '75 our students stayed at the upper campground during courses for the first couple of years. Truth is, I cannot recall a single unpleasant incident between the climbers, the townspeople or anyone else for that matter. Of course the upper campground is not the post office and the demographic of the community was somewhat different. For one thing there were a lot more climbers living in the canyon in those days--individuals who chose to live in the community because of the proximity to the canyon not in spite of the state park. The vibe was different, not necessarily better, just different and perhaps a bit more accepting of economic diversity. Anyway, when Bill and Luanne Fowler closed the campground we housed our students at the youth hostel in Boulder at Collage and 12th street. It worked very nicely. Probably still would if it were available. A key element was that we had an old Dodge van to transport the climbers to and from the hostel. Anyway, in my opinion, even though Eldorado Canyon does not seem as popular as it once was (I was just there for a week and other than the typical queue at the Bastile Crack, it was nearly empty) it will always be appreciated as a rare jewel to adventure (Trad) climbers. Fact is, in a town the size and reputation of Boulder, climbers should have access to convenient, affordable lodging(camping or hostel) allowing them access to the entire front range and RMNP. Now that a vociferous and somewhat organized "portion" of the Eldorado community have demonstrated though a petition and this forum that they do not "resonate" with a hostel near the community, perhaps the AAC could look to the Marshall or South Boulder area instead. Again, regardless of where it is, the Boulder area needs a venue to lodge visiting climbers. This has been a recognized need for as long as I can remember. I for one hope it happens sooner rather than later. It's a travesty that we are still kicking this around.
In closing let me say to "Pitbull": your thinly veiled threats while humorous, were also pathetic. Why would anyone take you seriously when you don't even have the sand in your sack to sign your posts with your real name. I realize that your selfish, cowardly objective was to stir-up the pot however what you actually did, was cast a nasty pallor on the townsfolk of Eldorado in general. I had the opportunity to speak with a number of long-time residents of the community while I was there recently and they expressed disgust with your diatribe. Curiously enough, some of them seemed to know you. In fact, the word on the street (or should I say dirt and magnesium chloride) is that "Pitbull" is actually a she, and that a competing offer for the post office was at the root of the dust-up. Pitbull, I suggest you stick to painting by the numbers until you've been in Eldo a while longer and get the feel of how things work. Observe your neighbors,(not the ones that burn their friends,(you know who you are), but the one's that have your back). You did everyone in town a disservice with your infantile rhetoric and rather than feeling that you accomplished your goal you should be ashamed of your debasement of the community at large. Long after the hostel issue has been forgotten, your character (or lack thereof) will remain an issue. Good luck with this.
Kevin Donald
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Jul 15, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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EDIT:
Kevin, Thank you for your response to this important issue facing Eldorado Springs.
I value your opinion higher than many due to the fact that for decades you were the quintessential Eldo Climber/ resident. Your ethics and celebrity were and still are to this day inspiring.
I hope our paths cross soon.
Like I stated up thread I am excited to revisit some of those delightful, traditional, rock climbing gems in Eldorado Canyon and feel the Stoke of that magic place.
BTW: I have been getting some great waves on the south side of the island this summer. I am probably going over there today in fact.
Cheers Olaf Mitchell
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Turok
Trad climber
Colorado
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Jul 16, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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Hi Olaf,
Thanks for your pumehana.
I just sent you a PM with my number. I will be in Eldorado from the 22nd till the 30th with my family.
Be nice to see you.
Cheers!
Kevin
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jul 16, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
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Thanks too, Kevin. Well-put and the revelation regarding this Pitbull character is helpful as well.
If the AAC can find a bigger better location not too far away---in fact their stated hope and current intention---all's the better for everyone. Not having to shoehorn ourselves into that strange little berg would be a relief.
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