risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Snowden cannot be allowed to go free, not because he divulged State Secrets, but because he symbolizes the power—may I say, sublimeness?—of truth, particularly against what he exposed as a pack of political criminals, and beyond that, exposed, through their workings, the inner springs of repression on which American society and its structure of power depend, namely, self-pacification as an overriding state of moral-political inaction of body and mind, a rejection of social protest in thought and deed, the individual subject to cues provided by acute patriotism, consumerism, and the heavy-handed militarization of Authority. That, we could see, and for some, speak out against.

But this added factor, brought out by Snowden, of surveillance, gives self-pacification silent and powerful reinforcement: the fear of terrorism, itself contrived by government to justify security arrangements bordering on informal regimentation, has become transformed/extended into what psychologists would term—if only they examined consequential societal issues—the “introjection” of the entire power system in America, including its capitalist and military foundations, and the people’s own expected docility to its furtherance, goals, and ideology.

That is a big burden to carry around, even if unnoticed (the test of repression’s value and success to an authoritarian government), which leaves the individual naked and vulnerable to the extreme politicization of mindset designed to eschew critical thinking, and rather, glorify the State.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Americans are so s ........

stupid?

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
"Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for The Guardian, has said Mr. Snowden gave him thousands of documents, only a tiny fraction of which were published. Many may be of limited public interest, but they could be of great value to a foreign intelligence service, which could get a more complete idea of the security agency’s technical abilities and how to evade its net, officials said."

Uninformed supposition.

SIGINT (COMINT, ELINT, etcINT) has been going on since at least ancient Greece. The Russians and Chinese are under no illusions or doubts about the NSA, CIA, and DIA's capabilities, scope or coverage. And the likelihood they have any questions about "how to evade its net" is also about nil. Ok, sure, there are some governments like the Seychelles, Mauritania, and Cook Islands who might learn something they didn't know, but it's more a basic 'get a grip' sort of deal.

I mean, hey, governments and the intelligence community no longer have a lock on any of this stuff. It's all out there, available and even the computing and network hardware is all subject to all manner of creative attacks, hacking, and modding. None of it is a "secret" anymore. If anything, governments and their agencies are way behind the curve right now - even the NSA. This stuff is going on 24x7x365 all around the world by everyone from bored middle-schoolers to the NSA and KGB.
WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
If he is so f*#king high and mighty about free society what is he doing in russia?


He is not IN Russia itself.

He's in the international transition area where one has not yet actually entered the country yet.

Do you people even read ??????
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Domestic spying of the breadth and scope practiced by the NSA (which along with the CIA has become Obama’s Janus-faced look toward both internal and external acts of structural-political subversion) becomes the handmaid of counterterrorism, the latter, now self-legitimated through government edict thus spreading a cloak of legitimacy as well around the former. Surveillance is good! We hear ad nauseum that there must be a balance struck between security and privacy, with the former invariably taking precedence—a convenient debater’s trick because the former can be infinitely enlarged, and the latter, a straw man, toothless to boot. America’s fear of terrorism, itself a form of terrorism practiced on the people, paves the way for domestic spying on the part of Authority with impunity.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Wbraun, just say it. Stupi.....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Militarism and surveillance are kissing cousins, each depends on the acceptance of prescribed ORDER. That order, a supreme ideological value of an hierarchical class structure such as we have now more than ever, with wide disparities of wealth and power, has in different, though largely nonpolitical, ways been challenged for some time, yet still awaiting focus—which Brazilian ferment, still a straw in the wind, may (along with Greece and Turkey) inspire. In any event, conformity is wearing thin, given multiple sources of discontent in American culture and society, building from civil rights, protest over Vietnam, and the rebelliousness of the counterculture, to what could be but has not yet been fashioned into a recognizable adversarial force for structural-economic-social change through the brute facts and experience of unemployment, mortgage foreclosure, rape of the environment, and the endless march to war, intervention, military stockpiling, and the abridgement of working-class rights and civil liberties. There is a crack in the façade of order, as understood by ruling groups, which, despite earlier abilities to control (and even sublimate into the time-honored paths of consumerism), can no longer be tolerated, particularly because they themselves perceive America’s changing position, its relative decline, in a now-multipolar world system beyond their powers of unilateral hegemony—therefore making the demand for conformity all the more urgent and satisfying.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism, a city on the hill made up of political demagogues, snoopers, voyeurs, mercenaries, and the scavengers in our midst, supercomputers to the ready, armed with preconceived notions of enemies lurking in the dark, a wholesale assemblage of vile operatives who are cloaked in the Flag, seemingly unassailable—until one person came along to reveal the public garbage masking itself as national security. This writer wishes him God’s speed to safety, long life, good health. The nation, whether it knows it or not, is indebted to Snowden’s bravery and moral conscience.

Norman Pollack is the author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, Eichmann on the Potomac, will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism

Snowden? You've got to be kidding me. Man, if it's taken Snowden to wake anyone up to the pious claims of American Exceptionalism then you've been dead asleep at the wheel for a decade at least and somehow missed manufactured intelligence, preemptive war, constitutional violations, treaty violations, rendition, and torture. Hell, BushCo flushed everything that was 'exceptional' about America down the toilet in pursuit of neocon glory in the wake of 9/11.

America’s fear of terrorism, itself a form of terrorism

And fear is the principle currency of conservatives and the republican party. The unfortunate aspect of the success of their fear-based campaign strategy is that while in power they created such a mess of global scope such that we, as a nation, now do have enemies to fear and doing nothing is no longer an option.

Because we can't have it both ways.

So, the question isn't that black and white, but rather one of unpleasant grays - how do we protect ourselves in a world where technology-driven asymmetric warfare capable of mass casualties is now within reach of non-state actors?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Does our nation operate as an empire or as a democratic nation of free people? Because we can't have it both ways. To live with freedom is to live in fear and insecurity, sorta like being in love, I guess. :-)

Empire is what our nation has become. Institutional torture, now massive multi-administrational internal spying programs... what's next in the degradation of freedom? Secret courts? Oh right, already have those too.

DMT

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
the architects of Nazi Germany designed Totalitarian America...

with an additional 70 years of research and development...

the American public, not having learned so much...dazzled by Hollywood celebrities, big sports teams, puppet politicians, controlled media...

there's now little need of our large wage slave worker population...

pay attention to what has been done all around the world...supported by your work and taxes...

look and learn...

because now they are bringing it back home to you

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
anyone who chokes up on that very well documented statement just hasn't done their homework

however unless you are a history buff, you could indeed invoke Godwin's law and dismiss the obvious implications

or you might want to read 'World without Cancer', a book by G. Edward Griffin, which is well worth a read in any case

followed perhaps by the voluminous 1970s report from the US Congress entitled 'Interlocking Directorates in Corporate America'
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
how am i supposed to respond when i make an admittedly controversial comment based upon extensive research and someone who knows little or nothing about it takes offense

my response is to suggest that you ignore my comment, just as you do many other things

or, if you have any interest in the subject, go do your homework
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
please excuse my interest in the motives and methods of totalitarian governments, aka major criminal gangs, aka epidemics of social diseases


and my quoted posts above come from Norman Pollack, author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, 'Eichmann on the Potomac', will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Tom, one conspiracy theory at a time please.

And Griffin? You're really going to dredge up the laetrile nonsense? Beard, Harris, and Krebs! Oh My! Complete and utter quackery.

Norman Pollack, while a bit of a drama queen and given to occasional fits of hysteria, is certainly a much, much better reference in this instance.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, sometimes I can't escape the feeling that Nevada must have small designated 'Tribal Areas' similar to Pakistan, but for the terminally clueless.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
it's all ok


i'm sure the Rockefellers, Morgans, Carnegies, Rothchilds...all have your best interests at heart


not to worry


based upon my years as a project manager at Booz Allen Hamilton


just do as you are told
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Tom, if you want to have a proper definition of totalitarianism, start by mentioning Hannah Arendt...otherwise you're pretty much just blowing smoke.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Most of those who object to NSA data mining, I'd wager, couldn't care less if LA or NY went up in a puff of mushroom-cloud smoke - if not actually preferring that that would happen.


You just nailed the crap out of a few likely suspects here with that comment.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
i am more of a wilderness guy, and sad for the loss of wilderness

some people love the cities and there are many wonderful things about cities

the loss of a city is a great loss to all of us

and the cities are full of wonderful people, even if not all their citizens are quite so wonderful

we don't have a population problem, we have a management problem

genocide, war, enslavement, etc are not solutions

these are symptoms of bad management
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