risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:57am PT
Incumbents don't matter much. Not when a new crop of bought and paid for candidates is always available.

Remember it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a federal elected representative without over a Million dollars in campaign donations. That's just the House. About a magnitude more for Senate and almost a couple more Magnitudes for President.

Unless we change that with a constitutional amendment government Of the People For the People and By the People continues to be DEAD.
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
By the way

The flight 800 investigators just admited they lied about the plane crash.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
Werner,, i saw that. SHeeeesh-- does the crap never end?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
How would they know they had their rights infringed by use of a top secret information gathering system? You think that such information couldn't be used to do damage to someone in conjunction with other actions such that the person harmed could not recognize the involvement of the secret part of the harmdoing?

Are you saying that you find it unlikely that such a program has not and will not be used to harm people who do not deserve it?

Like I said you'd need another Snowden to prove it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well. You chose blackmail but I'd have picked other examples.. regardless the concept is valid.

I know you are coming from a default position of trust and hope and knowing a lot of good people.

Try coming from a viewpoint of a person who has been conned by those he trusted, consider that there are people trained proffessionally to be conmen and to work as double agents and to lie in order to convict people.

As far as folks trained to lie in order to imprison human beings. This includes every current Police officer. Let alone the much more thorough training that federal law enforcement receives.

Consider the above facts well

Now use your imagination



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:34am PT
You skipped the part where I answered your question with your own scenario.

Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well.

I could have said Imagine the sun rising tomorrow because it is that simple to come up with a plausible scenario such as you asked for.. but that would have been rude.

I really am not trying to argue for arguments sake.

I get what you are saying I think. You seem beleive the datamining is being used in an appropriate manner in order to protect us as an additional tool used onle when other information leads us to need that saved datamine info.

I am simply suggesting that the info is easily abused and if so probably has been abused. Not only that but the type of abuse it makes possible is staggeringly bad.

I am furthermore suggesting that what Snowden did in making the people of the US aware of this system was a great service and as such I find him a hero not in any way a criminal.

I don't trust the government to always do what is right with it's power. I do at this time expect that it will do more right than wrong with it.

I am of the opinion that I have more to fear from my governments use of this information than I have to gain from it. Because what they do right with it has little actual pertinance to any risks I face. Whereas what are likely to do wrong with it while it also has very little risk to me is still much higher than the terrorst one to me. Matter of numbers basically. I have way more possible contact with government forces than from terrorists.

We probably disagree.

so be it.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Ok I failed to communicate well. Perhaps I'm not even thinking well. I thought I'd done better. Actually I still think I made some pretty good points.

Someday perhaps I will master the power of thought and communication required to win an argument with a troll on the internet.

Sorry.. seriously.. I wish I'd done better.

And thanks for getting me motivated to think a bit more on this subject.

Gnight man.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08am PT
Dude nobody would attack Los Angeles with a Nuke. Pointless

It would hardly put a dent in it. Disrupt it sure but you could do that with plain old explosives on I5.

Wasted Nuke. Much better places to use one.

Other than nukes you are worrying way too much about Terrorists. And in LA you are definitely worrying too much about it.

Someday terrorists will get a nuke and blow up Washingto DC or NY. Inevitable. It will happen with or without this data mining. Well unless there is no point by then to attack America.

Could be China will be the worlds big target by then. Hope so. We could learn alot from Canada's ability to thrive by not being numero uno on the world stage.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?


You are not.

You are not supposed to be making judgements about top secret programs that are used to track terrorists, which if revealed, makes it easier for terrorists to operate.

You are supposed to vote, and elect people you trust to, under the penalty of law, evaluate what is being done, and whether, in their expert opinions, it is legal and valid.

They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

There is only one person who is alleged to have tapped information they should not have been looking at----and that is Snowden, who disclosed that he was searching through secret documentation that he was not cleared to read, which he knew, then copied and disclosed this information publically.

Sounds like spying to me.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:20am PT
Except I don't trust our "elected" officials.

I'd love to actually even be able to have a democratic election in America.

But that isn't possible anymore.

Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations.

The US government has lost it's credibility unfortunately. But that is a fact of it's own doing.

Last time I used your way of thinking KenM we failed to vote out let alone impeach the idiots we had trusted to make such decisions. I have not Forgotten the lessons of Irag War II
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:21am PT
They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

Hahahaha
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:36am PT
No not hardly. I love the idea of America. The America I pledged allegiance too. I dream of a nation as described by Our founders and by Lincoln. I hate what it is being perverted into.

As regards my opinion about the Nuking of DC or NY? I hate it but I believe it will occur. Same way my reaction to 9-11 was instantly.. "goddammit they finally did it."

First words out of my mouth after turning on the TV and seeing only one tower standing.

I am a believer in the idea that one person or a small group of highly motivated people are unstoppable.

I suggest removing the motivation as your best defense.

You need to stop listening to Limbaugh buddy. You might not get your filters so twisted that you could imagine let alone think or type that I hate America.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:40am PT

"Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations."


Except both the current governor of CA, and the guy I worked for who ousted Mary Bono Mack, were outspent by huge amounts.

Your ignorance is sickening. Leave.

They were not outspent as much as the people who did not get donations were.

you jumped to the conclusion that I meant money perfectly guarantees who wins. It doesn't and that is not what I said or even meant to imply.

But it does perfectly guarantee who gets to play. And that is what matters. Not the D or the R. Doesn't matter who wins of the well financed ..all of them were picked as acceptable to the real constituency of the US government long before we the people get to vote.


It allows folks like you to think the system is not corrupt to it's bone.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:57am PT
Corrupted by the need for campaign donations in order to play. No matter how much good they wish to do they are hampered by the need to get donations for themselves or for their party. Even if they wish to ignore it their less resilient colleagues will be constantly reminding them of it.

This creates lines they will not or even if willing simply cannot cross. Lines not first and foremost determined by what is best for The People.

It's a built in defacto foundational conflict of interest.

I think we both need some sleep. You have an early morning . Sorry if I kept you up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:50am PT
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014. Take this gem for example from April:

Congressman Tom Cotton took to the House floor “to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs”:

“I rise today to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs. Counterterrorism is often shrouded in secrecy, as it should be, so let us judge by the results. In barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the United States under Barack Obama: the Boston Marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, and in my own state—the Little Rock recruiting office shooter. In the over seven years after 9/11 under George W. Bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the United States? Zero! We need to ask, ‘Why is the Obama Administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the United States?’”

This sort of fear-mongering is the essence of what for forty years has passed for the heart and soul of republican campaigns. Be it blacks, gays, immigrants or now terrorists - fear was and is the main currency of republican campaigns. Don't like what's going on at the NSA? Yo conservatives, you voted for it lock, stock and barrel and have helped perpetuate the rhetoric of fear which made it as impossible for Obama to stop this program as it was for him to close Gitmo. So as far as I'm concerned, every conservative bitching about the NSA here or anywhere else can suck long and deep on it.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 07:38am PT
Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys far more oppressive of their citzens freedom than the USA
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Good point HealyJe. We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

Hope and change my ass.


Response to Healyje who said:
"Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014."
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
As a follow up and corollary to your Bushco point then, anyone who voted for Obama voted for extraordinary murder of US citizens? It's the voters fault? As the murder of citizens for thought crime was initiated and expanded by Obama, can't blame that on Bushco.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries" platform and I don't recall Obama running under the "It's time to execute Americans for thought crime" banner either. But that's what you have. So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

Someone's being blackmailed by the gov't, based on data mining, but without a whistleblower telling them it's happening, they wouldn't know it?
I'm sorry, but there's just no sense or logic in that assumption.
I mean, wouldn't I know I was being blackmailed, without Snowden telling me? Why do I need him to tell me that?

If a voyeur looking in your bedroom window was discreet enough that you don't see hims, have you been harmed? Better yet, he might scare away burglars, so in fact he's doing you a favor?

Personally, I don't have a big problem with billing records, I never felt they were private in the first place, and anyone who did was deluded, but where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, I don't want anyone looking or listening. If national security requires it, then let us know we're been listened to and let us decide.

I think this whole thing is a clever interim solution. Remember when Saddam Hussein realized it was far cheaper and easier to pretend he had WMD? Far cheaper to pretend the NSA has the ability to monitor and accurately catalog every phone call, email, google search and run facial recognition software on every CCTV and traffic camera in the nation. Eventually they will be able to, but in the meantime potential terrorists are afraid to even stand too near a phone or computer.

TE

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
There's a new cell phone game out - 'Where's Snowdon Now?'
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