risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 30, 2013 - 08:22am PT
So the word is the European spy masters GAVE the NSA the phone data.

F*#king spies. I told yall - never trust a spy. Ever.

DMT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Oct 30, 2013 - 08:47am PT
We need to figure out how to re-engineer the internet to prevent this kind of wholesale spying. We need new techniques to prevent communications intermediaries from leaking private information.

That's the bottom line for me. There are no political solutions for this, only technical ones. Encryption, alternative routes for internet traffic, and so on. Before 9/11 this was a pretty hot issue, PGP was a radical, activist program. But then the boogeyman took over and privacy advocates had to hide lest they get obliterated by the expanding police state.

At some point I think the US military/security budget will be its downfall. Same thing happened with the Soviet Union. The military is 99% waste and only grows and grows. I live in Washington DC, where the local economy is still booming, and always will be, since taxes and military spending will always increase.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 30, 2013 - 12:48pm PT

It is Glenn Greenwald.

Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.

That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.

actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?

not one report has indicated real damage to teh USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.

nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 01:57am PT
a good ted talk summarizing many of the primary issues at hand:



the speakers conceptual framing of the u.s. surveillance state and its willing and maybe sometimes unwitting corporate partners as just another colonial venture is a poignant one.

as it seems to date, as though the u.s. public is generally pretty content with the revelations about and actions of their gov't, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the world reacts to their own leaders being tapped, their own corporate infrastructures being surveilled and etc.

given that the citizens of the empire are, as a general rule, not discontented enough to take any action, it will likely have to be the citizens of the informationally colonialized that drive any potential change.

and if there is to be any change it will not be due to "protesting" or "outrage", but rather will only happen if some mass movement hits corporate [and their governmental puppets] interests in their pocket books.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Nov 3, 2013 - 01:09am PT
^^^^
Yup, and the moment a bunch of nut case jihadists are able to take over an American mall, the way they took over a Kenyan mall, all that horse sh#t you just wrote will go out the window.

And it will occur ...
Or something much worse.

Maybe then, after many of you have cleaned the sh#t out of your pants, it will dawn on you that these imaginary intrusions were not such a big deal after all.

nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 02:31am PT
Riley Wyna wrote: "Yup, and the moment a bunch of nut case jihadists are able to take over an American mall, the way they took over a Kenyan mall, all that horse sh#t you just wrote will go out the window."

it's true, neither i nor my friends or family have been put in the situation you describe. and so you're right with regard to the implied truism that untested talk is ultimately cheap.

otoh, don't be so arrogant as to believe that your point of chosen compromise is necessarily the one that all others will follow if only they experience the world to be, as you believe/fear it to be.

the "live free or die: death is not the worst of evils" mindset is not exclusive to the individuals of any one territory.

on my own personal list of evils worse than death are state activities such as mass and warrantless surveillance, pattern-based "signature" drone strikes, non-challengeable no-fly lists, future crime based incarceration or assassination, ... you get the picture. just because it mostly only happens to brown people at this point, doesn't make it any more abhorrent to me.

but, we can check back in another 40 years and see whether any of us have changed our minds, regarding what makes us more "secure".

given the federal u.s. state is, 40 years later, still relatively committed to an, imo, as equally lizard brain driven "war on drugs" as this more recent "war on terror" it's likely there will still be something to argue with each other over the internet about.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 3, 2013 - 06:08am PT
Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!
Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!
Credit: Dingus Milktoast

blah blah blah there is NO WAY THE NSA CAN BE CAPTURING FULL TEXT AND AUDIO NATIONWIDE blah blah blah blah

The Running Scared Tribe just doesn't give a SH#T what abominations are done to protect their pumpkin lattes.

Well, your masters are dirty spies. I'm thinking better and better of Snowden every day.

Hey! F*#K YOU NSA!!!

DMT
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 3, 2013 - 09:20am PT
Congrats Californians on leading the way into the police state! Dianne Feinstein shows once again that she's lovin the surveillance. Never been a phone tap on you she didn't love. Here's some snippets on her new bill which my Senator (same party) voted against.

"Not Even Feinstein Calls Her Bill, Which Legalizes & Expands Surveillance, ‘Reform’


"As Trevor Timm of the Electronic Frontier Foundation suggests, her bill would “permanently entrench the NSA’s collection of every phone record held by US telecoms.”"

....

The American Civil Liberties Union argues Feinstein’s legislation would legalize “warrantless wiretapping of people known to be located in the US for seven days, if surveillance began abroad. It would legalize “queries of US persons’ names or email addresses without probable cause” so long as there was an “articulable foreign intelligence purpose.”
...

End snippets.


I find the NSA actions and the direction this administration going to monitor, kill and control US citizens and the press abhorrent. However, I also know that I'd feel worse if some towel heads were able to explode a dirty nuc in my city.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 11:10am PT
It is Glenn Greenwald.

Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.

That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.

If "causing damage" means interfering the US government violating it's constitution and international law for the sake of ???? (Tapping Merkels phone is hardly an anti-terrorist move) then I'm all for it.

If it makes the US look bad in the eyes of the world, that's not a problem.. we should look bad and change, cause guess what, we're not really fooling anybody

Snowden has done us the greatest service. We should stop being such pussies and throw out our constitution and civil rights the minute somebody brings up the terrorist bogeyman.

Really. More people die of tylenol overdoses in the US than terrorism

peace

karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 11:14am PT
Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?

DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?

Glad you're all for it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 11:16am PT
actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?

not one report has indicated real damage to the USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.

Hawkeye, I realize you just skip over the things that you don't agree with, or don't understand.....so you probably missed the part about the UCLA law professor and the chief attorney for the ACLU agreed that the country had been damaged.

Of course, that doesn't meet your lofty standards.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 3, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
What war? I don't think the Congress has mentioned any warfare in a very long time. Whodat?

DMT
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
"Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?

DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?"

Such BS. War is defined by the constitution as needing a formal declaration by congress. This is a BS war for the sake of strategic control and the military industrial complex.

and as a matter of fact, it's against international law to spy on the UN as we've done and would you also condone it if our allies had Obama's phone and email tapped?

It's completely lame to accept that the government has all our phones and web tapped in direct violation of the 4th amendment. The only way we know the government has become the real traitor is guys like Snowden.

The agencies of the government do not constitute our country when they run afoul of our principles. then THEY are the traitors

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Guys like Ken M is what's wrong with the USA.

Ken M doesn't even have a tiny clue what's really going on ......
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 3, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Werner said:
"Guys like Ken M is what's wrong with the USA. Ken M doesn't even have a tiny clue what's really going on ...... "

Can't say for that. Both Ken and Karl are what makes us strong. Serious and honest intellectual disagreement in a public forum. One of the problems we all have is distrust of the media. If the .gov control's it, which there are plenty of examples of, what do you believe? What remains? What is truth? What is honest discourse if the government is controlling what you see?

I don't doubt that both Karl and Ken M seek what what is best for the country. However, their lenses and what they allow to come inside of their minds, is different. Different from me, who served. Different than my father who had also served (Europe WW2), and different than my grandfather who also had served. (we all had the same name: me, dad and grandpa - clear example of lack of imagination and intelligence:-)) I don't doubt as well that all of my family's prism's and views would be different, but don't believe there would ever be a need to resort to calling each other traitors because of trying to win a political discussion.


Ken M said:
"DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?"

Doctor Murray, calm down. Karl is no more a spy or traitor than you are a Taliban chieftain. He is a good and honest dude, sometimes misguided, concerned for what is best for our country. Stop being a douchbag. Our country has a long history of angry discourse during times of (real) war. WW1 for example, although apparently not as important in your eyes as whatever is occurring now, had folks killed in riots against it. Folks died trying to keep us out of Europe. The Presidential election was won by the peace candidate who turned right around and committed the country to what became known as "The Big One" and "The War to End All Wars". (Woodrow Wilson was the name) My grandfather never was able to articulate why he went as a marine to go and try to squander his life in a trench in Belguim. He did survive and I got to visit him on my climbing trips to Joshua Tree. But there it was. Perhaps you can do a bit of research and tell us: why WW1 was so critical to the country? Grandpa was never able to tell me. Vis a vis that, why is discussing this issue a hot button for you?

My best to you all:
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/11/03/book-alleges-obama-told-aides-about-drone-strikes-im-really-good-at-killing-people/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 3, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
What is truth?

http://www.wnd.com/2013/11/cia-hit-in-1950s-mirrors-jfk-assassination/

"CIA hit in 1950s mirrors JFK assassination

Neither accused killer lived to tell his story
Published: 5 hours ago

The JFK assassination bears remarkable resemblance to a coup d’etat in Guatemala engineered by the CIA under the direction of Allen Dulles during the Eisenhower administration in the 1950s, contends WND senior writer Jerome Corsi, author of the newly released “Who Really Killed Kennedy? 50 Years Later: Stunning New Revelations about the JFK Assassination.”

The CIA plan was to shoot and kill the Guatemalan head-of-state and place the blame for the assassination on a “patsy,” a person innocent of the crime, who in turn would be murdered to frustrate any subsequent criminal investigation or trial.

Both assassins, as Corsi points out, were ex-military who left the service expressing distinct sympathies for communist Russia.

As WND reported, Corsi raises the provocative question of whether the JFK assassination was a revenge killing masterminded by CIA Director Allen Dulles. Corsi’s extensive research shows JFK may have signed his death warrant the day he fired Dulles, accusing his spy chief of lying and manipulating him in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Corsi presents evidence that the Bay of Pigs invasion had been planned by the CIA during the Eisenhower administration as an eleventh-hour “October surprise” designed to catapult Vice President Richard M. Nixon into the White House over his Democratic Party rival, Kennedy.

“Who Really Killed Kennedy,” released last month as the 50th anniversary of the assassination approaches, is bolstered by recently declassified documents that shed new light on the greatest “who-done-it” mystery of the 20th century. Corsi sorted through tens of thousands of documents, all 26 volumes of the Warren Commission’s report, hundreds of books, several films and countless photographs.

In the 1950s, the United Fruit Company, then the world’s largest importers of bananas to the United States had some powerful friends in Washington, D.C.

Secret details of JFK’s assassination are finally unlocked. Get your autographed copy of “Who Really Killed Kennedy?” by Jerome Corsi now!

Allen Dulles, appointed by Eisenhower to head the CIA in 1953, had ties with the United Fruit Company back to 1933, when it hired Sullivan & Cromwell, the prestigious Wall Street firm in New York where Dulles was a lawyer.

After being retained as legal counsel, Dulles bought a large block of United Fruit stock.

In Washington, Thomas G. Corcoran, the prominent New Deal attorney known as “Tommy the Cork” Corcoran, was Harvard-trained, a clerk for Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and a confident of President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Since the 1940s, the company had also retained Edward L. Bernays, the genius consultant credited for inventing public relations as a profession, whose 1928 book “Propaganda” was openly admired by Nazi Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.

The problem began in March 1951 when Jacobo Arbenz, a professional Army officer who was the son of a Swiss pharmacist father who migrated to Guatemala, took over the leadership of the country after a successful military coup.

CIA operative E. Howard Hunt described Arbenz as “a man of modest intellect” who “had married the daughter of a prominent San Salvador family, and she, a doctrinaire Communist, had guided has career from army ranks to the presidency of Guatemala.”

Arbenz’s great sin was to initiate land reform, expropriating 225,000 acres of property from the United Fruit Company, then Guatemala’s largest employer. Ultimately, Arbenz nationalized more than 1.5 million acres, including some of his family land, to turn over to the nation’s peasants. Much of that land belonged to the United Fruit Company.

Finally, President Eisenhower and Vice President Richard Nixon ordered the National Security Council to overthrow the Arbenz regime in Guatemala.

The CIA offered the assignment to E. Howard Hunt.

“I was told that this was currently the most important clandestine project in the world,” Hunt wrote, “and that if I accepted the position, I would be the head of the project’s propaganda and political action staff.”

In discussing his plans for Guatemala, Hunt was particularly open that his assignment included authorization for using covert methods to combat in Guatemala the spread of communist influence in the Western Hemisphere.

To provide the Eisenhower administration the required “plausible deniability,” Hunt determined that within the CIA the Guatemalan operation would be conducted on a “need-to-know” basis.

A cover program was set up under the code name “PB/Success.” Hunt’s unit had its own funds, communications center and chain of command within the CIA’s Western Hemisphere Division.

In Honduras, Hunt and the CIA trained a small band of mercenaries under Col. Carlos Castillo Armas, a Guatemalan military officer who had escaped from prison after an unsuccessful coup attempt against Arbenz in November 1950, as Arbenz was assuming power.

On June 17, 1954, Armas and his band of mercenaries crossed the Honduran border into Guatemala.

For several days, Hunt and the CIA organized American jets and American pilots to strafe and bombard Guatemala City, the capital of Guatemala.

The truth is that Carlos Castillo Armas did not lead a popular uprising against a communist regime, he lead a mercenary army financed and trained by the CIA in a CIA-engineered coup d’etat.

Behind the scenes were John Foster Dulles, secretary of state under Eisenhower, and his brother Allen Dulles, who headed the CIA.

The propaganda campaign designed by Hunt and Bernays was designed to make Arbenz and his government appear to be an “instrument of Moscow,” “a pawn in the communist propaganda campaign” and a “spearhead of the Soviet Union,” as the Arbenz government complained to the United Nations.

On June 25, 1954, Arbenz resigned and went into exile in the Mexican embassy.

On July 3, 1954, Armas returned to Guatemala City aboard a U.S. Embassy airplane. He received a hero’s welcome, all orchestrated by the CIA, from 100,000 cheering Guatemalans who gathered at the palace balcony to usher him into power.

Five days later, a Guatemalan military junta elected Armas to power. In August 1954, Armas suspended all civil liberties. Within a week of taking power, the Armas government arrested 4,000 people accused of participating in communist activity. Within four months, some 72,000 Guatemalans were registered as communists.

Armas proceeded to reverse the reforms put into place by Arbenz. Land appropriated in nationalization efforts was taken away from the peasants and returned to the United Fruit Company.

The assassination and the patsy

Within three years, the United States soured on Armas.

On July 26, 1957, Armas was assassinated at around 9 p.m. as he and his wife prepared to enter the dining room of the Presidential Palace.

Two bullets, one of which severed his aorta, struck him down, killing him instantly.

The assassin, identified as 20-year-old Romeo Vasquez Sanchez, was said to have committed suicide immediately, using the same rifle he had used to kill Armas.

The Guatemalan government identified Sanchez as a disgruntled soldier dismissed from the military in June 1955 because of his “communist ideology.”

Yet, somehow, Sanchez managed to rehabilitate himself sufficiently to have been a member of the Presidential Palace Guard when he committed the assassination.

Little noticed by the international press at the time, Armas was assassinated just four days after trying to close a casino owned by an associate of U.S. mob figure Johnny Rosselli. At the time, Rosselli and Carlos Marcello, the “godfather” from New Orleans, were expanding their presence in Guatemala.

The Guatemalan Army claimed to have a 40-page handwritten diary in which the assassin referred to “a diabolical plan to put an end to the existence of the man who holds power.”

The diary reportedly read: “I have had the opportunity to study Russian communism. The great nation that is Russia is fulfilling a most important mission in history … the Soviet Union is the first world power in progress and scientific research.”

The Guatemalan government LAO claimed to have evidence that linked Sanchez to Moscow. The evidence produced was a card from the Latin American service of Radio Moscow that read: “It is our pleasure, dear listener, to engage in correspondence with you. We are very thankful for your regular listening to our programs.”

Yet, no evidence was ever produced to prove Sanchez was ever a member of the Guatemalan Communist Party.

Parallels with Lee Harvey Oswald

There are many parallels between Sanchez and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Both were ex-military who left the service expressing distinct sympathies for communist Russia.

Assassination researchers Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann, in their 2005 book “Ultimate Sacrifice,” point out that Oswald was “a seemingly communist ex-Marine who was able to get a job at a sensitive firm – a Dallas company that helped prepare maps on U-2 spy plane photos – even after he returned from his ‘defection’ to the Soviet Union.”

Waldron and Hartman note that in comparison, the “Guatemala patsy” was described by the Guatemalan government as a communist fanatic who was expelled from the Guatemalan Army only six months before he assassinated Armas. Yet somehow Sanchez had still been allowed to join the Presidential Palace Guard.

How was that possible? Surely the Presidential Palace Guard would have been a sufficiently elite military unit to require a background check before they were hired. Waldron and Hartman further note both were ex-military who were described as communist nuts that killed a president with a rifle, conveniently leaving behind diaries rambling in communist propaganda.

There is no photographic proof that either Sanchez or Oswald were the assassins who pulled the trigger.

Neither had any witnesses who were in the room with them when they pulled the triggers.

Neither made any confession of their crimes.

Both were soon killed themselves – with Jack Ruby shooting Oswald and Sanchez shooting himself, obviating any need for a criminal investigation or trial.

Both the Armas assassination and the JFK assassination were considered open-and-shut cases in which responsible government and law enforcement authorities declared the guilt of Sanchez and Oswald was obvious, such that doubters could be dismissed as “conspiracy theorists.”

Both assassins were dead and buried a short time after the assassination, avoiding a prolonged time for grief or for unanswered questions to surface.

In neither case has any written record been produced of government interrogation. Oswald was questioned by Dallas Police, the FBI and/or Secret Service after his arrest. Sanchez was interrogated prior to being released from the military because of suspicions he was a communist.

In both cases, Sanchez and Oswald made perfect patsies because authorities openly proclaimed their guilt before trial, and their deaths made sure neither would have the opportunity to counter accusations.

The suicide of Sanchez closed the investigation of the Armas assassination, just as Jack Ruby murdering Oswald closed the investigation of the JFK assassination."
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 7, 2013 - 09:55am PT
CIA is paying AT&T $10 mil a year to sell out its customers. I hope the thousands of AT&T employees acknowledge and revel in the fact they are selling out their customers and are now in the spy business.

I see at AT&T banner ad right now... sad sack of sh#t right there.

DMT
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 12, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
Credit: tioga

Poor Snowden where did he end up...:((
"Scrotum nailed to pavement"??

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-11/artist-mutilates-self-as-putin-paralyzes-russia.html

He's got a lot of work cut out for him now... "freein' em' scrotums"
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Meanwhile in Russia....
Ahead of the Sochi Olympics in February, Russia is taking saliva samples from religiously conservative Muslim women, according to locals in the North Caucasus, gathering DNA so authorities can identify the body parts if any become suicide bombers

That ain't your NSA TSA acting like school kids!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/31/us-olympics-sochi-dagestan-insight-idUSBRE99U04O20131031

Snowden will probably end up being exchanged for some suicide bomber, eventually...
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