risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]


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Jul 19, 2013 - 11:39pm PT

Fringe kook bloogers claiming that charging someone for breaking into a nuclear weapons plant with anything other than misdemeanor trespassing is "mission creep"...haha

If that's "thoughtful", I shudder to think what you'd consider rash

Trad climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
just cant wait to pat a zimmerman on the back for murdering a nun eh?

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Fringe kook bloogers

See, this is where you lose me jghedge. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a fringe kook according to you. Do you have any idea who Schneier is? Hardly on the fringe or a kook. He literally wrote _the_ book on cryptography. This is an important topic that reasonable people can disagree on, yet time after time you stoop to ad hominem attacks on those who don't share your views.

Jul 20, 2013 - 01:05am PT

"Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a fringe kook according to you."

The most egregious example of this are the three anti-nuclear pacifists, including an 82-year-old nun, who cut through a chain-link fence at the Oak Ridge nuclear-weapons-production facility in 2012. While they were originally arrested on a misdemeanor trespassing charge, the government kept increasing their charges as the facility's security lapses became more embarrassing. Now the protestors have been convicted of violent crimes of terrorism -- and remain in jail.

What "violent crime of terrorism" were they convicted of? Damage to federal property. Why does the author label this a "violent crime of terrorism"? Dramatic effect?

And why does the author try to characterize the charges as a reaction to embarrassment caused to the facility's security? What proof does he offer for this in the article?

When are you people gonna learn? That kind of ludicrous hyperbole gets you taken seriously by no one. No "violent crime of terrorism" took place. Why describe it as such?


Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:13am PT
Perhaps you missed this?

But on December 4, 2012, the U.S. filed a new indictment of the protestors. Count one was the promised new charge of sabotage. Defendants were charged with intending to injure, interfere with, or obstruct the national defense of the United States and willful damage of national security premises in violation of 18 US Code 2155, punishable with up to 20 years in prison. Counts two and three were the previous felony property damage charges, with potential prison terms of up to fifteen more years in prison.

18 USC 2155 is part of the "Patriot Act"


Hyperbole? Not so much I think.


Jul 20, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Of course describing that as "violent crimes of terrorism" is ridiculous.

Again, it's the same thing the Obama haters did with Benghazi and the IRS - trumped-up, overwrought nonsense that ends up making the accusers look foolish conspiracy nuts when the actual facts are conveyed.

And again, where does the author offer any proof that the charges resulted from "embarrassment" suffered by the security detail? That alone pretty much excludes both the article and the author from being taken seriously.

Mountain climber
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:27am PT
Not sure if this has been posted yet ... if it has sorry for the redundancy.

Watch the message video with Oliver Stone ...

Tell Congress To Act Now To End The Surveillance State

Oliver Stone on NSA Spying

"The question is not 'do you have something to hide?' The question is whether we control government or the government controls us." - Oliver Stone

History tells us that change will happen—that we can reclaim control of our government and our privacy—if ordinary citizens act on the stunning information that Edward Snowden has exposed.

And since Snowden exposed the NSA’s massive internet and telephone spying programs, tens of thousands of ACLU supporters have indeed taken a stand—calling on President Obama to end them. But he has refused to respond, offering up bland defenses of the program and stepping up the international witch-hunt for Snowden instead.

So now we need to turn to Congress, which blindly gave the NSA too much spying power in the first place.

In a sign of building momentum, new legislation is popping up every week to curtail or undo the secret surveillance state, but we’ll only get a good law if we send our representatives a crystal clear message: Americans stand opposed to this blatant abuse of power.

Tell Congress to get in gear to end the secret surveillance state—sign the petition demanding they repeal section 215 of the Patriot Act and section 702 of FISA immediately.

Imagine what our government or anyone with this kind of capability can do. We have a right to keep secrets. It's also about safe guarding our intellectual property. Imagine if you 're an inventor, then they know the secrets of your invention long before you ever go public. Imagine if you are a natural scientist and you have made a great natural discovery, then they can know your discovery and its location and steal it. Imagine if you are a lab research scientist, then they know your discovery of pure science too. Imagine if you're a writer, then they know your great American novel before you ever publish. Imagine if you're a software engineer, then they know your program. Imagine you have phone sex with your beloved spouse whom you haven't seen in person for a long time due to work commitments, then they listen in.

It's not right. It's immoral, unethical, illegal, and against our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:30am PT
If being charged with a section of the Patriot Act doesn't label you as a terrorist, not sure what would.

While they were originally arrested on a misdemeanor trespassing charge, the government kept increasing their charges as the facility's security lapses became more embarrassing.

I don't read that as suggesting as causality or motivation for the charges. Merely that they were contemporaneous occurrences (although it certainly wouldn't be the first time that government agencies have responded to embarrassment in that manner.)

Jul 20, 2013 - 02:02am PT

"...the government kept increasing their charges as the facility's security lapses became more embarrassing."

"I don't read that as suggesting as causality or motivation for the charges."

Yeah right.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:58pm PT

Manning trial sets execution precedent for future whistleblowers

Jul 23, 2013 - 03:40pm PT

As I predicted 2 weeks ago - no interest in Snowden or his claims anymore. Dropped off the national radar.

Just another fake scandal ala Benghazi and the IRS.

Guess we know who the gullible liberals are now.


Sport climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
You are keeping it alive Hedge, you're still keeping it alive... the Hedge tool needs to keep it alive...

I wonder:

If I buy an American computer or a camera - Is there now surveillance-enhancing remedies installed in the hardware and software? Are the devices prepared for surveillance? If so: Is it acceptable that companies like Microsoft and Apple are selling spying-on-their-customer-devices to their customers without the customers own knowledge?

If so - I want the not surveillance-enhanced computers to be properly marked to know what I buy. I had planned to buy Microsoft Surface Pro - the plans are now frozen until I know more...

Who are taking care of our interests as customers when Corporations like Apple and Microsoft are selling us out?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Its a good business opportunity for somebody, Marlow. Even if Americans go along with this, why should people in other countries? All communications from South America, internet and phone, go through the US, including from Venezuela, Ecuador, Argentina, etc. How would you like to have your emails read and stored by a foreign govt? Latin Americans may have little choice now, but the Germans are reacting.

My website got taken down by a virus a couple months back, and I had to delete it, about 5000 files. I'm going to rebuild it with a company called xmission.com, just because they claim to not cooperate with FBI administrative subbpeonas etc. Not sure how long they can survive taking on the man, but they'll get my business just for trying.

Jul 23, 2013 - 05:29pm PT

"the Hedge tool needs to keep it alive..."

I'm just pointing out that it isn't on the national news radar anymore. Is Snowden still at the Russian airport? I don't know, nor does anyone seem to care. Another fake scandal.

Just disappointing to see liberals fall for it, when I gave them credit for being smarter than that.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
I don't need or want, nor did I attempt to portray a scandal. I'm used to most Americans equating patriotism to support for big budget boondoogle weapon systems like the pretty F35-money-laundering-system and various domestic spying apparatus. That impulse knows no political boundary. IMO its sad. Understandable, in a Roman sort of way, but sad.

I've merely posted my opinions here, straight feed.


Social climber
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
“Freedom of expression” yes we still have it in just a different form.

Secrets, lies and fabrications now coming to light or will they.


Section to the right “on World News”

“House forces vote on amendment that would limit NSA bulk surveillance”

Its outcome is difficult to predict. The vote by itself will not restrict the surveillance, it would simply include Amash's amendment in the annual Defense appropriations bill, which the House is considering this week; the Senate must also approve the bill before it goes to President Obama's desk. There is deep, bipartisan support for the domestic phone-records collection in the House intelligence committee and deep, bipartisan opposition for it in the House judiciary committee.

Yet Wyden, one of the leading Senate critics of the NSA's bulk domestic surveillance, called it "unquestionably good" that Congress was openly debating the extent of the collection of Americans' phone records.

"It is another step, as I've outlined, in the march to a real debate,"

Wyden said during a speech at the Center for American Progress, a thinktank aligned with the Obama administration. "We wouldn't have had that seven, eight weeks ago."

Wyden described the bulk surveillance of Americans' phone records as a "human relationship database," and described a "culture of misinformation" around it from government officials as a threat to American democracy, warning that "unless we seize this unique moment" to weaken both, "we will all live to regret it."

"The combination of increasingly advanced technology with a breakdown in the checks and balances that limit government action could lead us to a surveillance state that cannot be reversed," Wyden said.

Wyden, in a wide-ranging speech, reiterated a warning that the authorities government officials believe themselves to have under Section 215 of the Patriot Act might also allow the NSA or FBI to retain bulk medical records, gun purchase records, financial transactions, credit card data and more. "Intelligence officials have told the press that they currently have the legal authority to collect Americans' location information in bulk," he noted

Wyden assailed administration and intelligence officials for describing their surveillance as limited in public remarks while secretly briefing legislators about their broad scope.

"The public was not just kept in the dark about the Patriot Act and other secret authorities," Wyden said. "The public was actively misled."

As for all those people who bought guns, guns and more guns and as for thousand boxes of ammo good luck.

Sure happy I used cash for my transactions; when they persisted for asking for names for certain transactions I did not hesitate; the day before just took a name in the phone book and memorized the phone number. They would ask “what is your telephone #” you gave the memorized one from the phone book and they would ask are you Mr. Smith, Yes that's me and then they would say Thank you Mr. Smith, have a nice day.


Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 01:22am PT

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:17pm PT

House NSA Amendment Fails 217-205


Jul 24, 2013 - 09:27pm PT

Really guys? Nothing?

We all know how many new posts this thread would have had it gone the other way

So I was right about the fake scandal angle, apparently...


Jul 26, 2013 - 09:21am PT
From Foreign Policy regarding the NSA being curbed NOT, Titled: "How Nancy Pelosi Saved the NSA Surveillance Program
Posted By John Hudson Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 6:39 PM"

"..Pelosi had a big effect on more middle-of-the road hawkish Democrats who didn't want to be identified with a bunch of lefties [voting for the amendment]," said the aide. "As for the Alexander briefings: Did they hurt? No, but that was not the central force, at least among House Democrats. Nancy Pelosi's political power far outshines that of Keith Alexander's......"

Welcome to surveillance city, now you Californians know whom to thank.

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