risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:30am PT
The idea that Dick Cheney was behind illegal government activity is hardly surprising. He practically invented it.

Curt
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:45am PT
the deal goes like this.

government breaks the law behind the scenes while it maintains the law
when it is in check, it pays lip service to the law and this means it PROSECUTES OFFENDERS when they are revealed.

what this practice does is keep the behind the scene breaking of the law under a check of sorts.

they know to keep their sh#t small and confined hidden; thus they only do it when its absolutely required knowing they will pay a price for the illegality if and when exposed


when a government moves these illegal activities into quasi acceptability, agencies are created to manage them. instead of simply relying on well meaning and motivated individuals DOING these this things because these persons pressed to feel personally that these illegalities are demanded and to hell with the consequences,

you get beaurocrats believing they are the order of the day. you get armies of minions who do them as routine. rote activities they dont think twice about


this is the bloom phase of the activity. the illegality

you get a thousand times more occurance of them at this point



instead of good meaning people feeling compelled to break the law and saying 'i had to and to hell with the consequences! give me a jury and i will tell my story'

you get a beaurocracy hiring thousand thugs picked for their ability to not even think about it while preforming these audacities... whos only response to being called for it is 'huh?!?!?'


thats empire digging its heels in after a republic has the sheet pulled over its deathbed
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 10:50am PT
rSin, if only it were as benign as that.

Did you view the clip Karal Baba posted?

I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:02am PT
I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.

    SalNichols


While it appears that Sal knows his stuff, it seems he is very much in the dark with regards to how seriously the NSA pays attention to USSID 18.


If anybody still thinks the NSA operates within the law, or that our courts are providing the proper oversight over this black-budge agency, they are simply not paying attention.


And Joe, are you still standing by your accusation that Showden is a treasonous traitor?"
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:06am PT
no, i didnt see the clip.

i wasnt saying that the authorities who press for the expanded exceptions and the folk who get hired to people it are benign

far from it.

the advocates with authority the toys of demons in our midst who know what vile exploitations are possible given the practice

and the men and women who get hired to do the dirty work make the scum of the earth look like saints

those are facts


i was merely laying out the process of making an enivitability from a minor side occurance into an industry
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:08am PT
I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.

Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved.

Curt
jghedge

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:17am PT

"And Joe, are you still standing by your accusation that Showden is a treasonous traitor?"

Of course. But you refuse to acknowledge, let alone address, the reasons why, so why bother asking me? You just pretend all he did was expose domestic data mining, and ignore the ops he compromised. Hell, you refuse to even admit you understand what the word "compromised" means - that's how far you've stuck your heads in the sand.

You want public proof of covert ops being blown, knowing full well you won't get it, because they're covert, and then you claim that as proof that there is no validity to claiming he compromised them. You're in willful denial (on this thread at least) of reality.

What if there's a terrorist attack that can be linked back to a group that was being surveilled by an op that Snowden compromised, and had to be rolled up?

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:28am PT
So, just what was the purported goal of the covert ops Snowden "compromised" with his disclosures. I'm sure it will have deathly consequences to our "national security".

You must feel so unsafe and insecure, now that our precious spys have been exposed.
"What ever will we do????"
"Help us"
"Big Brother, please save me from the evil tea-baggers and al-qeda."

Funny stuff!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:29am PT
Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved and more of the same with the BO administration.

fixed it for you...
jghedge

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:34am PT

"So, just what was the purported goal of the covert ops Snowden "compromised" with his disclosures. I'm sure it will have deathly consequences to our "national security"."


Exactly like I said - you want public proof, as if covert ops could possibly exist if there were any. My argument is invalid to you because I refuse to engage in the same level of denial you're in.

"Funny stuff", indeed.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:37am PT
bump for staying awake
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:43am PT
So, jhedge, are you saying we should just trust that they are acting in our best interests? I'm sorry but the government lost my trust a long time ago.

And, if these covert ops you speak of were indeed "compromised", it is all out in the open now. So why not explain it to me, unless there is nothing legitimate there to begin with.

What spys were compromised? Who was the Valerie Plame in this incident?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:49am PT
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it."
President John F. Kennedy

Address to newspaper publishers

April 27, 1961

He says it better than I did.
WBraun

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Obama recently said: I'm just going to go along with all these jackasses because I don't want to end up like JFK did.

So even Obama calls Hedge a jackass ......
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 11:57am PT
... you refuse to acknowledge, let alone address, the reasons why, so why bother asking me? You just pretend all he did was expose domestic data mining, and ignore the ops he compromised. Hell, you refuse to even admit you understand what the word "compromised" means - that's how far you've stuck your heads in the sand.


I understand what compromised means (especially with the help of your definitions).


But I also read the definition of treason, and don't think it applies to Snowden. Then I read the article where Snowden sez he didn't give the Ruskies or the Chinese access to his laptops or intel that he had:

Edward Snowden: Russia, China Did Not Get Any Documents From Me


Afterwards, I realized that we really don't know what he did or did not let slip. It's all speculation at this point and I don't believe we'll ever know the full extent of what Snowden knows or what intel he has.

Still, after reviewing the content and links in this thread, I'm convinced that somebody passed Snowden some of the juicer pieces of intel, and that was done with the intention to be leaked (like the FICA court order on Verizon, a clear overstepping of the law).
jghedge

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:03pm PT


"What spys were compromised? Who was the Valerie Plame in this incident?"


So tedious...do you understand the meaning of the word "compromised"?

Plame wasn't compromised, she was outed in an article by Bob Novak. "Compromised" means "reasonable expectation of secrecy is gone".

Your credit card is stolen. Ok, now pretend that the thief is publicly bragging, to the press, that he is going to use your credit card. What do you do? Call the bank and cancel it, right? Or do you need proof that it's going to be used by the thief first? No. You cancel it, because it's "compromised".

Those ops that Snowden bragged about revealing? They have to be canceled, whether he actually reveals them or not, because he compromised them. They're stolen credit cards that have to be canceled.

Do you understand what "compromised" means now?




jghedge

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:08pm PT

"Then I read the article where Snowden sez he didn't give the Ruskies or the Chinese access to his laptops or intel that he had:"

Hahahaha - so the thief promises not to use the credit cards he stole. How about we just cancel them anyway, because the consequences of canceling them are far worse than the consequences of waiting for proof that he's lying?

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Ok, so we still are not allowed to know what was compromised, or why it has to be kept secret.

Thats it. Because of "national security". It is like saying abra-cadabra. No oversght, no accountability, no problem, eh????

Seriously, jhedge, do you really feel threatened in some way. These "ops" are really necessary to keep us safe?

There must be some big threat out there that is being hidden from us, right. But we don't need to know what it is. We might panik or something.

C'mon! Where is the Boogieman?
jghedge

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
"Ok, so we still are not allowed to know what was compromised, or why it has to be kept secret. "

How else are covert ops supposed to exist? You might be able to read about them months or years later, when no damage could occur, but while they still exist?


I mean, it's just mind-boggling that this has to be explained.


Why not just send me you credit card number, DOB, SS#, bank routing ID...or do you not understand why keeping that secret is important either? I mean, after all, there's no "BoogieMan", right?

What is with the absolute refusal to comprehend basic concepts here? You people can't possibly be this stupid.

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
worse than the white house blowing the operations which was busy buying up nuclear material bleeding out of the former soviet union...

thats what plame was doing when they outted her to cover the fact that the invasion of iraq was entirely based on pure fictions



THATS what secrecy really buys us...

nuclear proliferation
rampant military debockles
genocide


win win for the worest monsters the world has EVERY been confronted with
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