Angelina Jolie's decision

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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
"It's all about return on investment."

Weak, Dave. Very weak.

Pathetic, even.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Do you actually have a counter point, or just ad hominem arguments?


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Dave, I'm just at a loss. I'm sure you're quite familiar with the phenomenon here at ST when you come up against a view that appears to be so entrenched & irrational that there is no point in making any effort towards discussion.

Edit:
As I said, I can understand the skepticism that many have of celebrities who take on social issues, esp. when it's clear their actual knowledge in that area is limited. In this case, though, I can understand one's skepticism about AJ's past media profile, but right now she's dealing with her own body, a central part of her 'brand'. She has more expertise in this area than you, I, or anyone else. If her willingness to take this bold step helps one other woman to be more comfortable about a similarly difficult decision, I can't imagine how this is a negative.

Edit 2:
rSin = w*r?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 14, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
its really freaky how the people with the most lost to this issue are the most in favor of enbracing entertainment which excludes the honest evaluation of it

plenty of cancer and loss in my family
had my own malignant tumor removed years ago and didnt get any post opperative care at all

oh but the surgery was free and easy

vultures!


if jolie gave a flying f*#k about other women shed have dropped her pants and pissed on the scum who own that test she stumped for

not fluffed em

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
May 14, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
What a bunch of douche bags ...

Any of you as#@&%es have a clue what it takes physically and emotionally to cut your breasts off?
How about you having to make a decision to cut your little tiny nuts off? And then multiply the area of trauma by 50!!! Or maybe you would like to have both ass cheeks removed along with your nuts... Imagine that for a second ya stunned twits

Any of you ever seen what a fresh double mast look like?
I just recovered a woman today who had a double mast - she was so destroyed mentally, physically and emotionally I'm worried she won't make it..

Please ST .. Delete my account like I asked already. Or do I have to post pics of ass sex like a few others ..

This board and some of the people here make me ill... I don't get why many of you subject yourselves to these idiots everyday ...
Anonymous cowards who would probably cry from a paper cut and don't even work on their best days ... Let alone develop or be responsible for developing a test that can tell a woman if she has a death gene....3000 bucks for testing which in high risk cases can be covered even with no insurance ????
Yes ... How f*#king evil ....

Get informed dick heads ...

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/05/15/angelina-jolie-praised-for-bravery-in-mastectomy-revelation/
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 15, 2013 - 02:51am PT
Riley Wyna, I'm with you. (BTW, why do you want your account deleted? We all have our 'detractors' on the Taco Stand, and your medical experience and knowledge is valuable. Before Jennie's Korsakoff's Syndrome I was looking to be re-certified as an EMT and volunteer for both the Lifeboats out of Dun Laoghaire and Dublin-Wicklow Mountain Rescue, as I have some SAR experience. However, things have changed now that I am a full-time carer. I cannot answer a 2am phone call to go on a search/rescue/recovery and leave Jen alone for hours.)

Stick around Riley Wyna.

Unfortunately, due to circumstances I could not be in California to visit my late sister in hospital. Breast cancer as I have already written.

For that matter, my dear brother Mac who also died of (liver/lung) cancer last year. He wasn't a smoker, but he did have cirrhosis of the liver (occupational hazard in the wine industry), though he quit, just tasted and spat it out. After my oldest brother Casey retired from the Teamsters, he volunteered as chairman of the Northern California Teamster Substance Abuse Committee. He told me that people that had cirrhosis had a 34 times greater chance of liver cancer.

Anyway Taco Standers, I never was a big fan of Angelina Jolie, for some of the reasons that are mentioned in this thread by others. Plus I do not think that she is that great of actor (yes, many female actors I know preferred to be called actor, not actress. We don't say doctoress do we?)

But I highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. She gets enough press coverage as it is.

It was for her health.

If it is true that Myriad has a sole patent on what is a very important test, then the government should look at that, and according to Wikipedia (I always take with a grain of salt what is written there, good starting point though)...

BRCA1 Co-discoverers
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS)
University of Utah Research Foundation
University of Laval/Endo Research Quebec
Hospital for Sick Children University of Toronto
University of Tokyo
Myriad Genetics, Inc.

BRCA2 Co-discoverers
University of Utah Research Foundation
Hospital for Sick Children University of Toronto
University of Pennsylvania
Myriad Genetics, Inc.


...Then how the hell did Myriad get the sole patent if there were other co-discoverers? Something seems fishy there.
beaner

Social climber
Maine
May 15, 2013 - 04:36am PT
I may be wrong but having a breast removed due to cancer doesn't qualify you for breast implants...you pay for those on your own (I assume--I know my Aunt doesn't have implants).

In the U.S. an insurance company is required to cover breast reconstruction after a mastectomy to either treat cancer or as a prophylactic measure for an at risk individual. It has been this way since sometime in the 1990s. Most insurances will also cover genetic counseling and if necessary prophylactic mastectomies for individuals with a family history of breast cancer.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 07:00am PT
87% probability

She stepped out of the way of a moving freight train.

The only real choice in this part was the timing - do it now or wait?

(What were the medical trade-offs to doing it now vs. later?)

A difficult medical procedure, but no worse than what millions of people deal with under harder circumstances.

I just don't see the "bravery" here. Certainly not extraordinary bravery.

The medical choice was a no-brainier.

What she did afterward was for publicity.

It may help a few people in an indirect way. But it wasn't charity. She made no sacrifice by making it public.

She does know how to manage her career:

http://entertainment.time.com/2013/05/14/angelina-jolies-public-image-turnaround/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 15, 2013 - 07:30am PT
Dave and rSin: nothing wrong with making lemonaid when life gives ya lemons - especially if ya share the lemonaid with others.

That doesn't make her a Heroine, I wouldn't say it was even "bold". It may even be argued that it was cowardly. But it was a tough choice, she made it and her publicizing the issue makes her a decent human being, and if she gets to "build her brand" in the process, so what?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 15, 2013 - 07:52am PT
Dave... C'mon son.
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 08:06am PT
I've been lurking for a while, and it would be one of the OT threads that would be my first post. Go figure.

First impressions: there's a lot of mansplaining going on in here. Conveniently, a symbolic explanation of this phenomena can readily be seen in one of AJ movies: Mr. and Mrs. Smith. How do the two protagonists log in to the security systems at their workplaces? John Smith speaks. His voice is his identity. Jane Smith goes through a full body scan. She only speaks after her identity has been confirmed by her physical traits.

So how does this relate to AJ's Op Ed and to western culture more broadly? It means that women are not allowed to define themselves or their identity like men are. If you need another example of this, just look at Tammy Duckworth, who couldn't speak about her traumatic experiences or her physical state (her challenges, her femininity) without coming under mindblowing-ly idiotic criticism (e.g. she's attention seeking or she's "using her double amputation for sympathy votes").

Women aren't allowed to be ambiguous or multivalent beings (you know, humans) either we are perfect or we are attention/money seeking sex whores. You can't be both and you can only move one way (good to bad, not bad to good). After all, I don't remember Christina Applegate being accused of seeking publicity for her double mastectomy, but then she's always been so sweet and funny. We like her, she doesn't cause cognitive dissonance or rock the boat like AJ does.

I also think that, in large part, the trolls on this thread completely missed the point of the Op Ed. AJ's audience is specifically other women; women who have, just by being a part of western culture, been conditioned to think of her (and other actresses) as standards of beauty, standards to aspire to. So as a woman, I can say that it is 100% refreshing to hear amidst all the OMG celebrity this and that (as demonstrated by rSin) that for this moment in time AJ is admitting and embracing her humanity, her imperfections, her struggles--because this issue is something thousands upon thousands of women (and their family members) face every day. Did the fact that her breasts are part of her celebrity cross her mind when she pursued the mastectomy? Absolutely, I'm positive it did (every woman worries about her sex appeal post-mastectomy.) But not more so than personal memories like nursing her children.

Could she have said more in the Op Ed about the monopoly on BRCA1 and 2? Yes, but then, that wasn't the point of the article. And quite frankly, isn't much of an issue right now because a challenge to that monopoly is in front of SCOTUS right now, and oral arguments have already been heard, so what exactly is she supposed to *do (not being a lawyer, nor a SC justice)?

Also, Kos: when a woman goes in for "maintenance" or "breast enhancement," she does not chop off her breasts entirely. Mastectomies are incredibly invasive and serious surgeries, they aren't done for "upkeep." And while I'm at it, what she did afterward was not for publicity (although, being a public figure, everything AJ does is considered "publicity," be it good or bad). What she did was her right as a human being--to stand up and say "this is what happened to me, this is why I did what I did, this is how it affected me, and this is how I'm processing it"--just like Christina Applegate, Tammy Duckworth, or Christopher Reeve, for that matter. When it's your body, you get to own it; though, clearly all the mansplainers don't agree.

Edited for heat-of-the-moment grammar booboos and clarity.

Edit: Also, if anyone is interested one of AJ's doctors wrote about the process for those unfamiliar with it: http://www.pinklotusbreastcenter.com/breast-cancer-101/2013/05/a-patients-journey-angelina-jolie/
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 15, 2013 - 08:21am PT
rSin
the same previously banned fellow named "war, guar, gwarr"

You need to lighten up dude
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 15, 2013 - 08:44am PT
+1 for JMM
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 15, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Yeah what he/she said.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 08:55am PT
Your opinion on abortion doesn't matter because you are a man.

Your opinion on child protection laws don't matter because you don't have kids.

Your opinion on military policy issues don't matter because you are a not a veteran.

Your opinions on race issues don't matter because you are white.

Now we just need to come up with cutsie terms like "mansplaining" for all of the above...
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 15, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Breaking News!!!
she has had / or will have her ovaries removed as well
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 09:03am PT
I don't remember ever saying that your opinion doesn't matter, Kos. But I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the fact that you feel like you are coming under ad hominem attacks while you are doing the same thing to someone else ("it's just for the publicity, you know, because of who she is and all"). You can't have it both ways.

*Mansplaining. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 09:17am PT
But I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the fact that you feel like you are coming under ad hominem attacks while you are doing the same thing to someone else


Ummm...you don't seem to understand what an ad hominem is.

The topic of the thread is Angelina Jolie. She is the issue.

Is it an ad homiem to criticize Obama on the political threads?

*Mansplaining. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It doesn't matter what it means.

But some of these are funny:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mansplaining

JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 09:33am PT
Oh. Clearly I misunderstood. The title of the thread is "Angelina Jolie's decision" which I should have taken to mean "Angelina Jolie" period. And the OP's statement about hearing others' perspective "regarding such a choice, esp. if you've had fairly direct experience with cancer" was really some sort of code for "be all judgmental about a celebrity's past, while also coming up with completely ridiculous theories about ulterior motives."

Now I'll know not to discuss: 1. What she said about her experience or 2. The cultural significance of her experience as it relates to others with cancer and/or the BRCA1 or 2 gene mutation and instead attack her for being a celebrity. Because clearly that's the real issue.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 10:12am PT
"be all judgmental about a celebrity's past, while also coming up with completely ridiculous theories about ulterior motives."

I never said anything about her past. But now that I'm the bad guy, it's OK to make stuff up.

(Now that you mention her past...that Billy Bob Thornton thing was kinda trampy!)

Carly Fiorina used her breast cancer as an election issue. Was that cool?

couchmaster's point about "making lemonade when life gives you lemons" sums it up pretty well.

But some lemonade I'd rather not drink.
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