Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 136 of total 136 in this topic |
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 8, 2013 - 07:08am PT
|
A friend just informed me that the DNB is now rated 5.11.
So I looked it up on Supertopo and found that indeed this is true.
In 1980 Keith Royster and I did the monster in 7 hours. We had major discomfort with another team at the beginning, who was extremely rude about being beat to the route. (We spent the night at the base)
They tried to climb right up our asses for the first couple pitches, when we began to pull away. A friend watching from the meadow said it was very obvious as the day developed that we were blasting and they weren't. She said she wished she had a time lapse of the thing.
Anyway, we were in the meadow drinking beers and watching as their headlamps flickered in the chimneys. They bivied and we celebrated. It wouldn't have been so fun, but we were feeling pretty full of ourselves and they had been such dicks at the beginning, that it was particularly sweet.
It's all a bit of a blur, but we ran as much as we could and paid extra attention in the places we had to. Our efforts at speed were more related to wanting to be sure we finished in a day, rather than going for a record.
A few questions. Did something break off? I remember the crux being hard, but I think it was rated 10b at the time?
I also read that climbers have died on the Kat Walk. Is this true?
What is the record for speed? I've never been into speed climbing really, just curious to know if we stand near the Pantheon Of Greatness!
That thing is freekin' huge!
It also seemed burly, but in this day and age it seems like it's not hard if it's not rated 5.13.
In 37 or so years of climbing, I still count it as one of my best days. So I can tell you where it falls on Bruce's scale of greatness.....
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 07:22am PT
|
Ummmmmm, I would never survive the thing right now!
I haven't climbed for almost a year and I have too much bulk in my middle and not enough on my calves and forearms!!!
Might be a goal worthy of aspiring to though eh? I sure appreciate the offer though Dean.
|
|
mcreel
climber
Barcelona
|
|
They must have recognized that the first pitch was sandbagged.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 07:38am PT
|
They must have recognized that the first pitch was sandbagged.
Well I thought there were a FEW pitches that were, uhhh, conservatively rated, *ahem*...
But I didn't think any were 5.11, and I didn't think I was THAT tough.
I mean I knew I was semi-tough, but, ah hell you know what I mean!
I will, thanks Dean. I think you have to lead me up that 5.7X route in the meadows first...HA!
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
I just remember when a buddy of mine
told me Charlie Fowler had soloed it back in
1977. . . still unbelievable.
RIP, Charlie.
|
|
Bad Climber
climber
|
|
5.11? Not unless there's been some significant change. I did the route twice BITD, and I've never been much of a 5.11 guy. There was a root thing sticking out of one shallow corner that provided a good hold, and that thing was shaky when I did it about 30 years ago. It must have been gone/useless for decades now. What else could have changed? For sure the tech crux was A) the damn sandbagged chimney at the start or B) that in-yer-face mantel shortly above.
BAd
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
The softening of American rock?
I did it in the early eighties with Lynn, "Wheels", Wheeler RIP. Ever know him Survival? Little guy from SLC, long red hair, wire glasses, a face climbing demon, He and Royster were friends.
Anyway, wheels led the crux, but I didn't think it was that hard, pretty sure that was in Eb's...
We did it car to car, one rope, no water, leaving the 4 friend behind to save weight, in 5 hrs.
Our friends started after us with more gear, our plan was to hang with them if we couldn't go fast enough. We made it to the chimnies before the sun hit.
At the catwalk I remember Wheels exclaiming, with sweat dripping down his twisted glasses frames and off the tip of his nose.
"I'm so thirsty, those guys are down there with water, and POT!"
That was a big speech for him, probably the only words he spoke all day.
We were back to the car before noon. Our friends spent the night up there.
We came back after dark with Eric Burge and a gallon jug of rotgut red wine and yelled up the cliff at them for an hour or so, to no avail.. They made it down the next morning.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 10:14am PT
|
I remember Lynn! Didn't really know him though. RIP? How? Didn't know that either.
Yes, definitely EB's for us.
So nobody knows yet, whether something broke, or if it just got upgraded?
5 hrs? Damn! Well, it did get a little shorter between 80 and "early 80's".
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
Barely qualifies as 10a. More like an ultra-long 5.9. Although that first 5.7 pitch was the crux for me too, maybe that should be the 10a part. But the route should not be rated 5.11. Its more in the realm of nutcracker than astroman.
|
|
fosburg
climber
|
|
What was it rated before, 10b? It's a pretty tricky crux, I thought. I remember when Roland down climbed from there after reconsidering the onsight solo.
Is it common knowledge that the Ho Chi Min Trail is a super high quality variation?
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
Thank you for starting this thread, survival. Really curious about this thing. 7 and 5 hours for 2000ft of climbing is really impressive. Especially when I look at the topo and see how sustained it is...
Its more in the realm of nutcracker than astroman.
REALLY????
Why stress over a change in rating on a route you feel you can't climb anymore?
Because of curiosity. This is a great topic compared to 85% of threads around.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
I also read that climbers have died on the Kat Walk.
ON the Kat Walk, or somewhere below?
I tried DNB several years ago. Pack was mismanaged the night before and apparently a bear swiped it right out from under our noses... we both assumed the other must have put it away because it was right there on the table a minute ago. We substituted my ill fitting book bag. After a small shart on the mantle move, we had enough. A Canadian friend referred to it as "Do Not Bother"... so I never went back. Either way, there is some real climbing to be done, regardless of what some of the pitches are rated.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 11:46am PT
|
A Canadian friend referred to it as "Do Not Bother"...
Now THAT is the biggest piece of bullshit yet. Go climb it and get back to me about the "Do Not Bother" thing. Christ, people and their elitist "I'm so cool" comments.
DMT, who said I was stressed about it? As V said, I'm curious because we don't often see things jump from 10b to 11. (Insert Spinal Tap joke)
And I said I wouldn't survive it right now, because I'm out of shape, not that I can't climb it anymore.
Dang, I've got enough troubles without you making assumptions for me...HA!
|
|
snakefoot
climber
cali
|
|
i agree with do not bother and i did it twice. think i'm so cool also..
edited.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Whatever, the guy did the route and didn't like it. He is entitled to his opinion and comments. A few days later they did Astroman and wouldn't stop raving about it. A few days later we did Serenity and SOY... I didn't much care for climbing on piton gashes down low or for the SOY part. But it was an unusual day as we had the wall to ourselves and my partner quite enjoyed it. I thought the crux pitch was pretty fun. If I could come up with a funny slanderous name for Serenity/SOY, I would. To each their own.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 11:58am PT
|
Right DMT! I'm looking forward to it.
Its more in the realm of nutcracker than astroman.
Yes, it's very similar to Nutcracker, except more than three times as tall, quite a bit harder on pitch after pitch, with harder route finding and less protection in many places, and descent three times as hard also.
So yeah, kinda like Nutcracker.
Do Not Bother again? But you did it twice? So we can trust your judgement...
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
the original FFA probably rated it at the top of the system for that day, 5.9
Eric Beck talked about it at the Sacherer memorial.
It is interesting that the psychological effect of knowing a rating can greatly change your approach to a climb. Not knowing the rating at all probably helps you climb at your best, or at least hardest. In this case, since 5.11 is hard, it must be a hard climb and you respond that way, where is 5.10b seems in the realm of doable, and you do...
...subjectivity, couldn't we quantify it a bit better? ;)
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Nope, I didn't do it. I only did a few pitches, just one pitch past the mantle. Wasn't impressed enough to go back. The "Do Not Bother" came from a friend who shares a liking of Freeway, University Wall, Central Pillar, E Butt of Middle, Northern Exposure, The Black Dike(?), and other long tard routes. We share the same taste in rock, so I trust his opinion way more than grumpy old men who get their panties all wadded up because someone makes a flippant comment about a chunk of rock.
But hey, at least it is popular enough that we tried it... so it can't be that bad.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
I usually do.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
|
grumpy old men who get their panties all wadded up because someone makes a flippant comment about a chunk of rock.
It's just BS is the problem, and it gives you an excuse. Sweet.
Central Pillar? Yes, I like it too. In fact it's so good that you can spend much of the season in a queue on it. Did you do the whole thing?
I think Ed made an excellent point about the grading. Similar to what Donini often says.
The rating is only a starting point, to help me gauge whether I have any business at all near the thing. After that it's all about the feel and the adventure aesthetic for me. DNB hit on all cylinders for me.
It's an incredible line up an amazing wall. How much better does it get?
Does this suck as a line?
Yeah, pretty much junk!
Lookit that CHOSS!!
Edit: In my meager experience, it's hard to climb anything over 2,000 feet tall without a few, "WAAA, I don't like this part!" moments. But the overall experience was out of this world. If you want uninterrupted perfection, you don't belong on big routes. I'm entitled to my opinion too. Suck it up Canadian pussy boy.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
IMHO it is the prettiest line in the Valley. It floats my boat, big time.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
Got rained off of it about half way up. We would have finished but probably would have spent the night up on the route somewhere.
The route is burly and 7 hours is impressive.
First pitch alone is harder than 5.9, I almost threw up leading the freaking thing. Cruxy pitches are 5.10ish, but I don't think 5.11ish.
Who knows? Big route, lots of 5.9 climbing way above gear, real deal.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
I did it with Kauk 30 years ago and never wanted to do again.
All those stoopid 5.7 chimneys at the end makes knee caps hurt.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
|
Never thought I'd say this to Werner...
"WAAA, I don't like this part!"
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
I wasnt trying to sandbag anyone comparing it to nutcracker, I only meant that its closer to that than it is to astroman. DNB is not a sustained physical climb, it's mainly face climbing. I dont remember ever being more than 10' above gear but this was 20 years ago and memories fade. The hard part of DNB is doing 17 pitches before the sun goes down. Even with headlamps I think the descent would not be fun in the dark.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
since 5.11 is hard, it must be a hard climb and you respond that way, where is 5.10b seems in the realm of doable, and you do...
Very true. But I think it is good for people to be cautious about this climb since you have to do 5.9/10R parts and not blow them. I heard a couple died on it because someone took a fall, and their anchor blew with the rest of the gear. They weren't noobs and knew their systems according to what I heard.
Agree with Reily, this line is fantastic. One of the best in the Valley for sure. I think Nose is the most striking since it divides El Cap in Half. But this one is not too far behind it.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Central Pillar? Yes, I like it too. In fact it's so good that you can spend much of the season in a queue on it. Did you do the whole thing?
Nope. We didn't wait in any lines. We got there early, did the fun part, rapped, then did the NE Butt. Good long day with many pitches.
Hahaha... yeah, it gives me an "excuse." In reality what it does is give me an OPINION from someone I trust based on shared opinions about other great climbs.
Will I ever do DNB or all of Central Pillar... doubt it. If I'm going to spend time in the Sh#t Ditch, I have plenty of other things to do... Astroman, Rostrum, Moratorium, Snake Dike, the list of recommended routes by people who share my taste in routes goes on and on. Truth is, I don't like climbing in the Sh#t Ditch... dirty, noisy, crowded, and ultimately a huge pain in the ass. I'd much rather head up high where there is a HUGE list of quality lines I will do before even considering getting back on DNB.
I don't know why you insist on getting hung up on that comment though. I made mention of a comment from a friend and you insist on pursuing it. If you had no personal attachment to that chunk of rock, you would realize just how many great routes there are that make the list way before DNB. Why get so uptight? Why hash it out? Why not focus on the great time YOU had on it during YOUR experience and leave other people's opinions at that? I can only assume you are bored.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
|
Thank you counselor. Now go do a TR on your Astroman trip if you don't wanna read about my DNB thoughts.
Edit: I made a comment to your friend's comment. You're the one who came back to it. So why accuse me of it?
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Grasshappa, it is you who don't want to read other's thoughts on DNB.
I don't do TR's.
edit: you called someone's opinion bullsh#t. THAT is bullsh#t.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
|
We noticed.
Edit: Because there's no T's to R about.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
Ok,
Who's in? Last week of May. I'll lead the crux pitches (or we can ro-sham-bo for it).
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
Le bateau de Reilly?
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Just got back from 3 weeks in the Utah desert. Had a blast. That is all anyone ever needs to know unless they were there or ask.
Where/when was your last trip?
Now THAT is the biggest piece of bullshit yet. Go climb it and get back to me about the "Do Not Bother" thing. Christ, people and their elitist "I'm so cool" comments.
You can almost smell the panties as they wad up.
Have a good day. I'm going to play in the garden.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
|
Excellent, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
Hey wes, why don't you ever treat us to some of your climbing exploits? Seems you might have a few tales to spin?
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
I find reading TR's boring. I find writing them even more so. The closest I ever got was some shitty video footage... of boldering obviously, because who in their right mind would take pics/video on a route? What a waste of a beautiful opportunity to be in the present. Oh wait, I did a Cathedral Peak thing, mostly for the gf's family.
I tried reading a few TRs. I picked some I thought I would really enjoy based on the trips and the authors. I even picked short ones with lots of pictures. They bored me to tears. I think the only ones I like were of your (or another mike's?) boy climbing some cracks. The dude was psyched and those were rad.
Besides, what is the point of reading something if you aren't going to share opinions? And what is the point of sharing opinions when it gives old folks panty rash?
But I'm always happy to listen to them in person and check out photos.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
|
Damn you're a nice guy Mike! I try to be also, but I sometimes fail, in so many areas.....
I'd like to thank Ed for posting that video. I don't suppose Mechrist watched it.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
I played it and listened to it. Can't say I watched much of it. Sounded like some guy I don't know talking about some climbing he did. I can get that at any climbing shop anywhere in the nation. I certainly wouldn't dis the speaker, the story, or anyone involved... unless of course someone insists I listen to it or insinuates I'm less of a person for having not hear the story or not man enough to watch it. At which point, I have no problem expressing my opinion. My opinion: "some guys went climbing a long time ago and had a memorable experience. Awesome... whatever."
I wasn't going to comment on it, but you brought it up...
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Did he do that Beck-Salathe route?
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
|
Thanks Warbler. But was it a good route? Do Not Bother?
I almost can't imagine that we cranked some 5.11 first try. But that really doesn't matter, it's the wall and the big picture experience that counts.
It's kinda fun that MEchrist's panties are in a bunch cuz he couldn't do it, and he wants it to seem like he's too good for it...
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
I heard a couple died on it because someone took a fall, and their anchor blew with the rest of the gear. They weren't noobs and knew their systems according to what I heard.
it was written up here, and in the ANAM, a tragic accident on a pitch high up that wasn't "hard" but no one will know what exactly happened and why the team acted as they did.
While this sort of tragedy, when it happens on a particular route, conveys a "bad juju" on that route, we should think about this possibility on every route we do. The belay anchors failed and were recovered, still attached to the rope, with the bodies at the bottom of the climb.
This tragic result could happen anywhere at anytime, we all are picking from the deck when we are out there, best to stack the deck in our favor whenever we can. Make sure your anchor is truly bomber, that it is truly redundant, and that it is truly protected by the leader. A slip can happen at anytime on any ground and challenge the integrity of our safety system to the max, you don't want it to fail.
|
|
chappy
Social climber
ventura
|
|
Survival,
I have noticed a few climbs with rating changes like that. DNB is one Waverly Wafer also got bumped up to 5.11 in a modern guide. Basically its a joke. What I ascribe it to is that many modern climbers aren't well rounded--especially gym taught climbers. If you never learned how to climb wide cracks you get to the flare on the Wafer and struggle. Sh#t it must be 5.11! No, you just need to learn how to climb--everything. Manteling is another lost art. Does that make the DNB 5.11? No. The 5.10 rating on the crux is appropriate. As far as the route is concerned I have done it twice and enjoyed it both times. The chimneys up high are a bit of a grunt as Werner mentioned but the view across the sweeping N. Face as you reach the notch in the afternoon light is one to remember. The first time I did it with Kev and we left at noon and were back at the deli at 7pm. We simul climbed the upper chimneys. Comparing it to the Nutcracker is a joke. Far more serious. Is it Astroman? No. What it is is a classic old school route that should be on everyones tick list who enjoys a good outing on a historic route. A five minute approach for 2,000 ft of free climbing? Its worth doing it for that reason alone.
Chappy
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
|
Thanks Coz. When was this variation created?
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
I almost can't imagine that we cranked some 5.11 first try.
It's kinda fun that MEchrist's panties are in a bunch cuz he couldn't do it, and he wants it to seem like he's too good for it...
Hahaha... you see the irony in that right... I have no problem imagining doing a 5.11 first try. I think Space Walk (11c/d) was the last 5.11 I didn't do first try, fell off the last crimp next to the anchors. I almost fell on a couple 11's at Dike Wall a couple years ago, but managed the on sight. Did Freeway (but did whine a bit!), whatever that route with the split pillar is, Northern Exposure, and plenty of other 11's first try in Squeemish. I thought getting out of the "rest alcove" on Waverly was pretty strenuous... 10+ for sure. To be honest though, I haven't been too psyched on routes for years... but this year should be different... plenty of free time.
|
|
chappy
Social climber
ventura
|
|
Kev,
That was a great day of climbing. I still remember emerging from those final chimneys and looking out across the North Face from the Thirty Spire notch with the then unclimbed Mother Earth buttress glistening in the afternoon sun. Wow. Didn't we solo those first couple of easy pitches? Can't remember...
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
|
Hahaha... you see the irony in that right... I have no problem imagining doing a 5.11 first try.
That's awesome. Then why was it you didn't hike the DNB? Oh yeah, it was the backpack's fault.
So we've got a few notable people here saying it's well worth the price of admission, and then there's......
EDIT: Chappy, you soloed what?!!
Holy cow, it never ceases to amaze me, the bigness of the human spirit.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
"and then there's.."
Well, and then there's Werner, who seems to agree with Do Not Bother. Everybody I know who's done it (and that number runs over a dozen), also said Don't Bother, it was ok but not great. Almost all of them also said to just do the first 5 (or 7?) and rap.
Anyway, I'll go up there. You game? How about the 28th?
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
It was my partner's idea... he was all psyched on this "DNB" thing... I just went along for the ride. After the first pitch he said something along the lines of 'I don't know how much more of that I can take. You might have to lead the rest of the pitches.' After the mantle pitch his psyche dropped even lower... but not mine, I was never psyched about the route AT ALL, EVER... in fact, I had never even heard about it until the day before.
Yep, we bailed and I have never considered going back because I wasn't that impressed. As I recall, it was a perfect Saturday morning... at least 3 parties at E Butt (which I would do again)... and the usual crowd at Central Pillar... not a single person cued up for the classic DNB.
Again, just opinions. Glad you had a blast on it... the FA is definitely a great accomplishment... I suggest you focus on that part. Because honestly you have to realize there are better routes to be had nearby and choosing not to do a mediocre (at best) climb doesn't mean you can't.
Congrats on the upgrade. That will look great on your resume.
|
|
Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
|
|
BITD climbing the DNB in a day was a measuring stick of sorts. With a rating of V 5.10b, the class was more of a concern then the grade.
Seeing the damage done to over crowded routes changing the grade to a harder one might just be the ticket to reduce the traffic.
From what I heard the Royal Arches is now 5.12a and Snake dick is 5.13-.
I am going back to the boobs topic.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
IMHO: well worth doing, but I never made it back for a second lap, so that tells you something I guess.
7 hours is damned impressive.
|
|
David Wilson
climber
CA
|
|
Did the DNB in 81 with a 4 hour approx time on the route itself. Went back in 95 not imagining it could take too long. We topped out and barely made it off the catwalk before the dark descended on us in the talus below. It's a good route, but I agree there is endless moderate chimneying at the top - bring knee pads
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
me-Christ. fitting name. lol
anyway, we seem to have established that DNB is harder than Nutcracker and easier than Astroman. Can we refine that a bit? Where is it compared to NEB of Higher, or the East But of El Cap? (I made it up those two, but only by the skin of my teeth. lol) DNB sounds cool, and I like ending the day with 5.7 chimneys. Better than flaming out on steep face moves after 17 pitches. :)
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
Difficulties aside, the DNB is more serious than something like the the East B of El Cap.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
|
choosing not to do a mediocre (at best) climb doesn't mean you can't.
There you go again.
But whatever, you'll never know.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Haha, survival can't even climb 5.11 in Maple Canyon or v4 in Joe's Valley.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
I haven't climbed for almost a year and I have too much bulk in my middle and not enough on my calves and forearms!!!
I resemble that remark, except I was able to get outside a couple of weeks ago, and have been working out in the gym a few months now. I wish I were in better shape so I could take up El Cap on his offer for the 28th. If nothing else, he always strikes me as someone worth meeting.
It's funny to read some of these comments. I've known a great many people who considered the first two pitches sandbags at 5.7. I always thought those were reasonably accurate. It was the "5.9 mantles" that threw me for a loop.
John
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
|
Haha, survival can't even climb 5.11 in Maple Canyon or v4 in Joe's Valley.
HAha, who gives a damn?
Haha, MEchrist can't even climb 5.11 in Mawburst Gorge or V4 in Miedo Canon.
The difference is that I'm talking about a route I've actually done, and you're talking about a route you bailed off of.
On top of that you said you were going gardening, and here you are.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
The difference is that I'm talking about a route I've actually done, and you're talking about a route you bailed off of.
That must hurt! Nice come back.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
I "climbed" it once when I'd never climbed chimneys before. It was where I went to learn them. It was a long and brutal day, and I can't believe I ever got to the catwalk (barely!) before dark with any amount of help. Aside from being a big butt-kicker, it was one of the first big climbs that I did w/ J, so it hold a special place for me.
I revisited the first pitches again on Ho Chi Mihn, following them all, as I always would. I don't have the confidence to not die on them otherwise. They are always hard for me, relative to other pitches at the grade(s) even. If the mantle move is 10b then I reckon I'm worse at that technique than just about any other because it sure feels harder to me. I have a hard time w/ the thin fingery overlap/crack traverse left too.
We went back to the DNB couple/few years ago. I still followed the faces, but took my share of the chimneys to see if time and experience changed my memory of them. It did, but they still felt burly and old school in their way. We got across the catwalk before dark this time, but not back to the car. It's still a big route.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
Thanks for posting your story Melissa. That's one big route for a first long climb! Damn. Well done. Did you guys take more pictures? Maybe a full TR? Would kick ass to hear full story and what went on in your head before getting on such a route...
Would be interesting to hear about some of the untold epics on this one. I seem to run into people epicing (even on much smaller climbs) all the time. There must be some interesting stories about descending cat walk...
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
Nice Melissa! That guy is a keeper, be nice to him.
I think that, if you've never been up there before and aren't super fast,
climbing the North Buttress first to get familiar with the descent is not such a bad idea.
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
There's supertopo ratings and Reid ratings. Supertop ratings are trying for the gym climber transfering to trad. The climb has one Reid 10b move. (the mantle) and some run 5.9. The bad thing about supertopo ratings is that they confuse people. The good thing about supertopo ratings is, it keeps the crowds away from an already uncrowded climb. The climb is Reid 10b and not any harder then any other Reid 10b but easier then Glacier Point Apron 10b.
Warbler. If DNB is 11. then Quicksilver ain't no 9.
Edit: I also heard bolt was moved lower so one can clip while palming mantle. When I did it you had to stand on stance to clip crappy quarter incher. Clint may know more.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
What did Reed rate Catchy? Reed's Direct? New Dimensions? Five and Dime?
I was afraid of Waverly Wafer (11a for OW?!) after TRing Generator Crack (which I can't do clean on TR and struggle to top out with multiple hangs). Cruised that Waverly OW on lead. Slipped on a lie back though after getting to the rest knob (!) and didn't get the onsight..My rating for OW part on Waverly would be 10b, don't think it is any harder than Meat Grinder, and is much shorter. Secure, and protects great. You can even rest in there. Lie back above? I dunno, I suck at lie backs. ST calls it '10d lie back', I am sure Reed would call it 5.9 or some sh#t.
PS: If Generator crack was in Indian creek would fair rating be 5.12a?
|
|
Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
|
|
I've been lurking on this thread since this morning wondering what all the fuss is about? The DNB is 5.10c at best. There is no way it is 5.11. Frank Sacherer is rolling in his grave right now. It's just that mantle move down low that's tricky & the rest is pretty straightforward. I've seen a fair amount of rockfall come down those upper chimneys even when there was nobody up there launching anything.
For my moneys worth, the DNB is just OK. I have not done the Ho Chi Min Trail but it looks better than the upper grovel pitches on DNB.
If some of you folks think DNB was runout and / or scary and 5.11, stay away from routes like Freestone which has genuinely hard climbing and that is tough to get protection where you want it on it's lower face climbing pitches. Most of the longer routes on Fairview dome would be too much for those who call the DNB 5.11.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
Yup the freestone crux is Way, harder!!
Vitally, I think generator would be 5.10 here, Same as the valley.
Waverly wafer is definitely, easier! I think learning to crack climb I Vedauwoo worked to my advantage. I soloed generator a bunch though, and don't think I would ever solo WW.
Um, Will. I don't think Mike F or I, said "don't bother"....
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
Forget individual ratings Vitaliy......just keep climbing and doing tr's. When you get more into Alpinisim more you'll understand.....people ask me to rate the N.Ridge of Latok 1, impossible to do but a number of 5.13/14 climbers have failed quite a bit short of our highpoint. There probably isn't a move over 5.10 on the climb. The rating of the hardest technical move is certainly not the issue.
Ratings can be so individual .....BITD i regularly soloed Generator Crack but always thought Waverly Wafer was greasy and hard.
|
|
cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
|
|
I climbed the DNB with BigWallPaul shortly after the couple (from CO, I think) died there. I was a bit spooked, so I brought a hammer and a few pins in case some of the old fixed pins were bad/missing. I also wanted to figure out which belay up high was the belay that failed.
I got to one belay way up there that appeared to be bomber with a medium nut, green alien, and yellow alien (or something like that.. it's been 10 years or so and my memory fades at rate of 10% per year). So I put the gear in and then bounce test the anchor... to see the cracks expand. The crack was expando, but did not look like your typical expando crack. You would know only if you bounced it or gave a sharp jerk on the placement and felt the muted report returned by the piece.
The climbing above the belay was steep and without good pro for the first 10 feet (unless you had a big cam). I can see how a slip here could have brought a factor 2 upon the expando belay.
So I smacked a pin (or 2?) in the crack and watched that baby open up as it went in. I'm not sure if that pin(s) are still there after all these years, but folks should beware of that particular belay. I warned BigWallPaul to not fall onto the belay because of the expando problem.
By the way, I didn't tell BWP that I knew about the recent deaths on the route because I didn't want him to chicken out on me. I did tell him when we got to the top, though.
Then he tells me that he knew about the deaths as well, but didn't tell me because he was afraid I would chicken out!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Did something break off?
No. The mantle is the same as it always has been.
It's still 5.10b in the Reid guide, which I believe is a fair rating.
If you try to face climb it without manteling, that is 5.11.
(Here my partner is trying to face climb onto it - her right foot is on the mantle hold).
It's not even a very hard mantle. The hold is huge, it's not very steep,
and there is a big place to put your foot on the hold. You then just have to step up onto your foot without any finger holds above, except maybe a tiny undercling. No big deal, the protection bolt is staring you in the face.
The protection bolt was replaced, at the same level.
A Petzl Longlife bolt was added (in the early 90s) just 3' higher, that you could grab to aid through the move.
I don't approve of that bolt, but it's not easy to chop except with a dremel tool or something.
I've never clipped it.
I don't remember if anyone has died on the Katwalk. My partner and I almost died one time when a huge boulder came rolling down the Cathedral Chimney (lower part of the "Katwalk" descent).
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
Vitally, I think generator would be 5.10 here, Same as the valley.
Waverly wafer is definitely, easier!
HAHAHA Than there is no way in hell Big Guy is a 5.11. Must be a 5.9-.
Since I took Waverly apart piece by piece, I believe Enduro Corner on Astroman would not be 11c if you take it apart like that (for some it would be perfect hands, to a lie back that isn't that long, and not much harder but longer than 5.7 lie back on North Buttress of Middle haha). So maybe Waverly is 11a because you have to apply so many techniques on a sustained pitch? I dunno. Even though I 100% agree with Donini - "try to stay away from thinking too much about ratings," it would be nice to have some consistent ratings, especially when it comes to run out climbing that DNB supposedly has (supertopo suggests several run outs on 10a terrain).
|
|
Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
ST never rated Waverley Wafer pod as 11- ow. They upgrade rating to 5.11- from 10c (Reid) for layback after the pod. And for onsite Waverley Wafer is harder than many Yosemite's 10c and 10d .
This route felt as 10c when you wired it
|
|
chappy
Social climber
ventura
|
|
Alexey,
No matter what the reasoning behind the ST rating calling the Wafer 5.11 is a joke. The lieback is 5.11? The lieback is piss easy compared to Catchy Corner or the Goodbook lieback. It's so short. There are so many stems and rests on the Wafer. I never heard one peep about it being 5.11 BITD and that was without cams. Onsighting has nothing to do with it. Think about the pitch: It starts out with basically bomber hands (one wide move at the beginning but with a bomber inside edge)and stems and faceholds galore. You can climb it on your feet. Then that final slightly tight hand crack to the alcove where you can sit all day and rest. You get a large hex in the bottom of the flare that would hold a truck. The flare is left side in and only a couple of moves before you get hand jams in the back. A few more moves and they become finger locks and you pull out of the flare into a no hands stem/rest at the bottom of the lie back. You arrange your pro. The lie back starts out on good locks with footholds. You make a few moves and stand on a knob. Put your last piece in and continue to the top as it gets easier and easier. You can milk your toes in the crack and start getting jams pretty quick. This part was wet when I first did it and it still didn't seem like 5.11. Plus I had to finagle a 7 stopper in the crack instead of plugging in a cam. I have seen people try and climb the flare right side in...this probably would be 5.11. Anyway I just don't get the ratings change on this or the DNB. I stick by my original assertion that ratings have been changed on certain routes more as a reflection of many modern climbers lack of well rounded climbing skills rather than any real change in difficulty.
Chappy
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
Yeah, sure, whatever... I "bailed" as in I climbed through the crux (which I admit I found difficult and had to climb up and down a couple times before I figured it out), was never really that into it anyway, and certainly didn't have enough motivation to convince my partner to keep going for umpteen more pitches of groveling through choss on our knees. From the sounds of things, I didn't miss out on much. Same trip I OS'd Waverly, which I thought was a blast despite feeling sandbagged as hell, and plenty of other good climbs I would happily repeat.
I've bailed off better, but for the life of me I can't remember agreeing to start anything worse.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
|
Did somebody fart?
|
|
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
|
|
Hey Survival, why the hate on Wes?
You love a route, he doesn't so much.
You asked about it, he responded.
You got all pissy. He gave it back at you.
Relax man, it's just climbing.
I've always thought of you as a really cool guy, but come on, lighten up a bit, ok?
Now it's time for a musical interlude....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
pvalchev
Social climber
Mountain View, CA / Calgary, AB
|
|
I did both Waverley and Catchy Corner this last Sunday, within a couple of hours, so memory is fresh. They feel about the same to me, Catchy Corner is easier/more straightforward of the two to me if anything (it's my 3rd time on it, and I'd even downgrade it to 5.10+, there is no move harder than 5.10 and it's just the pump factor). The thing is, when you get something wired it will feel easier, and with some of these valley climbs that are 5 mins from the car, most people have climbed them multiple times by the time they start arguing the grades.
But really, 5.10c or 11a, the difference is VERY small, and the whole rating game is so subjective, who cares. It's like arguing with someone whether the approach hike is 10 or 15 minutes... it depends on how fit you are and how many beers you drank the night before.
Still haven't been on the DNB but the 5.11 or 5.10b with a bolt is irrelevant it seems, it's the technically-easier runouts that scare me and most others from doing the route. The Yosemite Grading System is supposed to be about the single hardest move, so it doesn't tell the story for climbs like that (not to mention that while it's TECHNICALLY supposed to be about the single hardest move, this is not consistently applied).
BTW isn't the DNB / surrounding area closed for falcon nesting in the spring? I thought I read that on the NPS site, but maybe the list has been updated as it's not there now...
That said, I've enjoyed this thread and the discussion, especially from those who have done the route - thanks!
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
Vitaly,
The only reason to use the Supertopo guide is to know what climbs to avoid since the guide has mostly popular routes. Otherwise, best to use it to start a fire. Use the Reid guide.
|
|
snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
|
|
I'm psyched- who wants to go climb it?
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
Um, Will. I don't think Mike F or I, said "don't bother"....
Dat's true Jaybro, but I haven't ever talked to you fellers about it either (that I recall, anyway).
Still no takers? Let's go see what all the fuss is about (and viciously downgrade everything as we spray about it later). Last week of May, anytime. Who's game?
Lotta talk in this thread, surely somebody is more than an armchair philosopher, let's go send this rig.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
This isn't the first time survival has flipped his lid for petty reasons. I don't blame him though... says he hasn't climbed for over a year... that's gotta suck. Whether he is ill or whatever, best of luck to him getting back on the rock... it can only help.
inyoazz meet snowhazed... snowhazed, inyoazz. Enjoy!
|
|
mynameismud
climber
backseat
|
|
SuperTopo keeps rating free climbs softer and softer while aid climbs get more and more firm.
<<quote Clint Cummins
My partner and I almost died one time when a huge boulder came rolling down the Cathedral Chimney (lower part of the "Katwalk" descent).
>>
I still do not understand how you managed to hide (I think you called it get real small) behind what you called a bulge. Really glad we both walked away from that.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
|
Brandon,
What can I say? I am generally a mellow non-confrontational guy.
Wes often has a way of bringing out the worst in others. I guess you haven't noticed.
I didn't hate on him in my first response. What I hated on was the Do Not Bother from his Canadian pal.
If he doesn't like the route he didn't do, that's up to him.
He doesn't have to keep coming back to the thread either, but he does.
|
|
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
|
|
Wes often has a way of bringing out the worst in others. I guess you haven't noticed.
Honestly, I haven't noticed that.
But, I'm from NH, home of sarcasm and harsh comments.
I think it's a syntax thing.
Edit: Dean, you said you were out at the crack of dawn for some sort of climbing. How'd it go? What did you climb? Lets see some pictures man! Hope it was a good day.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
At least someone gets it!
...
Make that two.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
|
Yeah, I'll back off. No worries.
Dean how was the Alpine?
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
there is some real climbing to be done, regardless of what some of the pitches are rated.
Unless you are a retired armchair mountaineer, then haggling over what happened a million years ago becomes the new game.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
BTW isn't the DNB / surrounding area closed for falcon nesting in the spring? I thought I read that on the NPS site, but maybe the list has been updated as it's not there now... Exactly.
The DNB (except first 4 or so pitches) was closed earlier this spring,
so the birds could access previously used nests, but they didn't show up there, so it is now fully open.
|
|
Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
|
|
Back from the Boobs topic to check in. Oh I see it's no longer about the DNB. It's gone personal.
Going back to the other Boobs. I like them better.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
That very bouldery crux low down was very hard for me 40 years ago. I found it approached 5.11a . At least for my height and body type. People spend a bunch of time there trying the move.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Mantles are pretty specialized, and shoulder flexibility is often key.
The DNB mantle is fairly low on the scale of hard mantles, though - I'm sure there are several at the Camp 4 boulders and at Castle Rock (Saratoga, CA) which are much harder.
I doubt there are many mantles available in gyms, too, so folks who have learned in gyms may not have worked mantles before. But I could be wrong.
New Cleveland-style translation for DNB:
Dead f'N giveaway, Bro!
|
|
bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
|
runout & 11a for sure .... All time top 5 climb - wud be suicide 4 me now - some belays less than marginal
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
I think the rating on most old school Valley routes was always lowered a few notches if there's a bolt right there. Also, that mantle can be 5.11 if you're up there in dead summer in direct daylight. I think I did the 3rd free ascent of the route when I was in high school and it took us 10 hours and scared the sh#t out of me. Later ascents felt much more tame but never easy. That's a lot of rock, not the greatest pro and some pretty funk belays anchors, especially in those upper grainfest chimneys. Paradise Lost is cleaner up the the Bowl, IMO, but doesn't have the character and screwy features or route finding.
JL
|
|
harryhotdog
Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Mechrist was your Canadian friend's name Dean by any chance? I enjoyed the DNB, it's a striking looking buttress from the meadow,that's for sure.
|
|
Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
The anchors were fine. Didn't need to worry about that anymore than other valley long routes. Just build them in good spots regardless if there is a ledge available etc.
|
|
Bad Climber
climber
|
|
The key to the upper chimneys: knee pads! I wore them both times and that made a huge, huge difference. You can actually kind of enjoy all the grunting. I did find my triceps starting to cramp a little at the end for all the pushing up those slots. It's a great adventure. Funny, though, I don't remember any death pitches in terms of pro. Maybe I was tougher back then.
BAd
|
|
Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
|
|
Seems if the topic involves ratings or bolts the post count goes up and up. It is what it is. I've done the route three times. It's not my favorite type of climbing but it has great position and length on really good stone. Some of the pitches wander around so much that you do 100' of climbing to gain 60. The chimneys are easy and go by quickly. I've even simul-climbed them.
The crux always seemed to be getting on the route without someone slower above you. Maybe we need a rating for that.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
hotdog, I don't know a Canadian Dean. The guy I heard the phrase from is super nice and fairly well known with many, many miles under his belt. Of course I will not risk his reputation by associating his name with me... nobody deserves that! Funny how many climbs I could easily say "do not bother" about and NOT have someone throw a fit. The fact that it fits the acronym of this particular climb is simply a mildly humorous coincidence. Surely there are worse climbs out there. Really, it isn't even that insulting, just an opinion suggesting there are better routes to "bother" with. I'm sure if someone really hated the route they could come up with something far worse and more creative than the relatively innocuous "do not bother."
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
|
The crux always seemed to be getting on the route without someone slower above you. Maybe we need a rating for that.
Mike, I'm not sure that's as much of a problem as it was back in the day.
I hear from a friend who's there all the time who says he never sees two parties on it anymore, as though it has drifted off the radar somewhat. The reputation for run outs, belays etc, plus a 5.11 rating seems to be doing a number on the popularity. People brought up in a gym don't want to do something 2,000ft long with "bad" climbing on it.
I was always interested in doing a route that was as complete a way up a formation as possible, rather than 10, one pitch routes at the base.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
My experience has been that routes on Middle Cathedral generally, other than the East Buttress and Central Pillar, are much less crowded now. When I first took my wife (then girlfriend) to the base of the northeast face of Middle Cathedral in June of 1983, we counted at least 24 climbers in the area from and including the Kor-Beck to the DNB. There were even more on the East Buttress, of course. Perhaps ten of those were on the Central Pillar, but there were parties on Bircheff-Williams, Stoners' Highway, Paradise Lost, and two on DNB.
I've been bouldering along that face for over 40 years, and it seems in the last ten years or so, I see fewer parties anywhere but on Central Pillar. Perhaps the theories postulated above explain this.
John
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
The semi-frequent rockfall over there doesn't help.
|
|
Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
|
|
I thought maybe the 5.7 flares got rerated 5.11!
That route was hard but 5.11 seems a bit much.
Is Mechrist Wes?
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
Seems like the consensus is that Ho Chi Min Trail is the real route to do on Middle Cathedral. The choss chimney finish of DNB doesnt seem to have a lot of appeal. Clint Cummins put that up but he's too modest to say so.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
People brought up in a gym don't want to do something 2,000ft long with "bad" climbing on it.
Bwahahhaha!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Yeah
Gym climbers should just stick to repelling the Nose ........ :-)
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
True, El Cap, but that semi-frequent rockfall has been happening a long time, as evidenced by the scree at the base of the northeast face. I had to dodge some baseball-sized rocks on Powell-Reed in 1972 and on Bircheff-Williams in 1973, as examples. I'm sure rocks were falling in 1983 as well, when the face was covered in climbers.
What I think changed is the reputation of the rock on the formation. Middle Cathedral remains my favorite formation -- both to look at and to climb on -- in the Valley, precisely because of all the micro (and not-so-micro) flakes and edges. More recently-minted climbers, however, seem to view its rock quality as suspect.
John
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
|
|
It's not the rock you're climbing on, it's the randomly generated rockfall from way up high. And that's with no one above! More than one person I know has sworn off the whole formation.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
|
That's what mountains do, they slowly come apart and fall down.
Middle Cathedral is not the worst of the lot, but I don't want to get hit in the head either....
I've heard ancient legends of rocks falling off Trango, Fitzroy and El Cap too.
|
|
jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
|
|
I climbed the DNB in 1978 with a guy from Colorado (I think) called John Warren. John took quite a lot of time attempting the mantle but eventually pulled on the bolt. I followed and had a go, but not wanting to waste time also used the bolt. When I got to the belay John was rigging a rappel. I asked him what he was doing and he replied that we'd failed on the route and that we had to go down. I argued that I'd only a couple more days in the States before going back home and that I'd like to continue. The argument went on for what seemed a long time and eventually he said OK. Apart from the mantle it was the '4th class pitches' at the top that left an impression on me. We finally got to the top of the route at dusk but couldn't find the way off and so had to bivvy, as I remember under a feature aptly named Thirsty Spire. Luckily John had a box of matches and so we made a fire to keep us warm... The next day it was evident that the whole of Yosemite Valley had seen our fire...
Does anyone know John Warren, and if he's still about?
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
|
Don't know him, but that's a cool story!
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
Back in the early 'aughts, maybe 2001, Mister E almost got taken out in a rockfall that blistered the base right by the CPOF. Miraculously, nobody was killed, despite there being several parties in the zone when it came down. I'd done the route a few days earlier and almost trundled some giant boulders onto outselves on the descent and narrowly avoided getting hit with some small stuff while on route. Later that season was another ripper over there, and I believe the next spring another one. Another one last fall. Probably plenty of other instances in the time frame too.
That was about enough for me to swear off climbing on middle...or at least doing it on any kind of regular basis. Same deal with the Apron. I've done some days up there, but the last time I went was for Mr Natural and I said "after this one, no reason for me ever to come back here". And I haven't. I can get hard, bald face and slab, without the bowling alley, down here in Idyllwild.
|
|
mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
|
On our hike down from E Butt (in the dark) it sounded like someone was intentionally throwing basketball sized rocks at us... which they may have been.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
I've only seen rock fall on Middle once, and I almost had my head caved in. It's more a problem of people knocking off lose stuff from above, avoid that and you're just as safe, as anywhere else in the Valley. IMHO
I'm not so sure, Coz. When we were on Bircheff-Williams, the rockfall was in the middle of the night (which shows how slothfully we were climbing), and it is unlikely that there was a party above us. When we were on Powell-Reed, the only other party on the rock was Largo and partner on Paradise Lost, and the rockfall came from high above, falling between his party and ours.
In fact, unless there's forest at the base of a cliff, it's a pretty safe assumption that addition to the talus and scree is an ongoing phenomenon.
John
|
|
le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
|
|
I've always wanted to do this route, but am intimidated by it, primarily due to the purported runouts and sometimes iffy pro. Mixed reports on that stuff, but the scarier reports are the ones that stick in the mind.
Also got spooked watching and hearing this big rockfall come down in March of this year:
Seemed that parties on the the North Butt route would have had a good chance of dying that day. Not sure where it originated or if it might have come down parts of the DNB as well, but what I saw came down the west side of the buttress proper.
Always a roll of the dice with that stuff.
|
|
Jim Pettigrew
Social climber
Crowley Lake, CA
|
|
I think I did this route with Luke Freeman, sometime in the 70's. Eb's, nuts, and fixed pins! Don't recall any 5.11. 5.9 run outs though and iffy belays. It seemed a prize for us!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Yes, we discussed it on the linked thread.
Those photos are from 2009, so the fixed nut is probably still there.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
I think the mind doesn't forget, when it's that scary!!
|
|
David Wilson
climber
CA
|
|
This thread is getting me psyched to go do it again ! Clint, do you have a visual topo of all of Ho Chi MIn - seems pretty useful what you just put up on the DNB
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
David,
Strangely, I didn't have a "photo overlay" of the Ho (specifically the part above where it branches right from the original aid line of the DNB).
Here's a new one:
All part of the old pursuit that Joel and I have done in the past -
"Pimping the Ho". :-)
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2013 - 01:19am PT
|
Ok Russ, the flaming died down.
Now where's that story?
|
|
harryhotdog
Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 01:37am PT
|
Yes,I'd like to hear the story also as I need some excitment to burn off my love handles.
Never had any rockfall around me in any of my trips to Yosemite so I think you guys are making it all up to keep us foreigners away.
|
|
David Wilson
climber
CA
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 10:16am PT
|
Clint - that is a great photo / topo - thanks for posting !
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 10:52am PT
|
Ok Russ, the flaming died down.
Now where's that story?
+1
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 11:49am PT
|
Where is this taken from? I climbed the route because of this picture and never found such an exposed position nor a clear view of the north side, as in the photo. I was very disappointed about that.
The topo in the Reid guide shows a 5.8/5.9 route with a bolted 10b move - pretty much sums it up...
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 11:56am PT
|
Kind of looks like the Nutcracker topo...
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 11:57am PT
|
Harryhotdog said: "Never had any rockfall around me in any of my trips to Yosemite so I think you guys are making it all up to keep us foreigners away." Some of the more recent rockfall (last few years) on the middle is so huge that massive would be an understatement. I saw one that would have killed everyone in the area had it occurred on a sunny day. Ammon filmed one that was about that size or bigger from El Cap that might be on Utube. It's not made up. Underestimate or ignore it at your peril.
Clint, great photo stitched and drawn job there! Thanks!
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
|
Where is this taken from?
Sue is standing on the mantle hold, p3.
|
|
ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
|
|
|
May 10, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
|
Ammon filmed one that was about that size or bigger from El Cap that might be on Utube. It's not made up.
Here's the Middle Cathedral rock fall we filmed while on WOS.
http://vimeo.com/28221780
Even more impressive is the one while we were on Bad Seed:
http://vimeo.com/24974122
The scary part about that last vid is that I was just down in that gully an hour before I jugged the fixed lines. Would have been quite epic to go out while doing my business... after all the near misses I've been through.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
|
Sue is standing on the mantle hold, p3. It really looks like she's way out on the Turret, 1000' off the deck. I wanted that pitch. I have to admit the block below her looks a lot like other photos of the block below the crux. The photo is tilted quite a bit as well. Probably a telephoto/wide-angle lens thing pushing the background away...maybe a 24mm on a 35mm camera...
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
|
JLP,
Maybe this will help - it's the best I can do with the DNB photos I have.
I feel confident I could recreate the geometry of Chris Falkenstein's photo of Sue McDevitt, if I wasn't belaying my partner and pushed myself further out from the wall.
I led the mantle pitch at least 10 times from 1985-2009 and the view down is fairly familiar at this point. :-)
|
|
mynameismud
climber
backseat
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
|
Don Paul
Seems like the consensus is that Ho Chi Min Trail is the real route to do on Middle Cathedral. The choss chimney finish of DNB doesnt seem to have a lot of appeal. Clint Cummins put that up but he's too modest to say so.
I have done both a copule times with different partners and the Ho is the best
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
|
Great route ! I've been it many time over the years. 10b sounds about right. I had a client in 09 follow the route in guide tennies, the 10b was a little hard for him to follow, but he pulled it off ! And I would agree with Coz that the Ho Chi Minh route is also very good !
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
|
Maybe this will help - it's the best I can do with the DNB photos I have. Now I'm thinking some dodging and burning were done on that photo to remove the trees. Your partner looks like he's 2 ft off the ground, crawling out from under a bush. I wouldn't want that pitch...
Thanks,
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
May 13, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
|
Now I'm thinking some dodging and burning were done on that photo to remove the trees.
The trees are there in Chris's photo - they are the dark area in the lower right corner. Kind of fuzzed together; the "magic" of black and white.
Your partner looks like he's 2 ft off the ground, crawling out from under a bush. I wouldn't want that pitch...
:-)
The lighting of my photo prevents the dirt/talus between the trees and the cliff from being lighter in tone than the trees. Otherwise the photos would look more similar. I have other photos where I can match up the bushes vs. dirt pattern and individual talus blocks to Chris's photo.
|
|
bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
|
According to the posted photo we were seriously off route, which explains my previous comment.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
|
Told you it was bad ass....
|
|
| Messages 1 - 136 of total 136 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!