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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 2, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
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Anyone used Gridlocks with a Silent Partner self belay device? Always seemed to me one of the weaknesses with Silent Partner is risk of cross-loading. I suppose that is why they use two biners. But I'm thinking Gridlocks might reduce the risk. What say you'all?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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no the issue under scrutiny
is more of a moment loading on
the main anchor point between
the silent partner's frame
and the caribiner.
thus we utilize redundancy and
double up on the biner.
i've whipped onto mine,
like 30' or so
with no issues.
i think cross product is
the direction of torque, by definition,
so we've no worries unless
you twirl as you ascend.
go have fun
and don't consider the uncertainty at
your mid-section.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
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yea, two lockers of course. but still my two beefy lockers at times bind up in the slot in a way that the pull is cross loaded. I've tried different jury-rig techniques to try to keep them in proper alignment, but the Gridlocks look like they might help. Still not sure which end would best go on the harness, and which on the SP device. Not sure....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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i just grab the gossamer prism as
i pass neath god's skirt.
why you so worried about gettin her
pregnant?
just clip in, screw the gates like a clock,
and aim beyond understanding.
what could possible go wrong?
nothing ever will go wrong
until it supposed to go wrong.
your emotional input is ineffective
within the greater process.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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cross-loading. I suppose that is why they use two biners.
No. Using 2 biners prevents the two shells of the device from rotating and opening a gap between the "rope retaining bars" on the bottom end of the device.
If a gap exists, the rope could easily escape through it, and the angle of the rope strands through the clove hitch could then get out of its designed range.
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Some Random Guy
climber
Under a Little Pink Umbrella
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i don't have a silent partner but i use a couple of minitrax's in series on gridlocks for top rope solo. helps some with cross loading (more so than a regular large belay biner) but it can still happen unfortunately. but for your situation it may work. attach your device to the small end of the gridlock which is perfectly safe. that's the recommended way for gri gri's.
top right diagram. could probably still use two biners too.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Cross loading? From your leg loops to your harness tie in? Given the flexibility of your body, it can never happen with enough force to do any damage to a single biner, let alone two that the Silent Partner instruction documents recommend.
On Iron Hawk last year, I used a big BD auto locker and a Petzl William screw gate. On a wall, after every pitch, you have to remove the SP from your harness. I found that in the cluster of my belay loop, harness leg loop and harness tie in point, that getting the SP off of two biners was quite the job. I used a screw gate so that it was an easy biner to deal with and then an auto locker simply so that it would lock up without me thinking about it. In the whole 12 days and 20 something pitches I used the SP, I never saw where it would cross load the biners.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Maybe somebody could supply a photo of what cross-loading would look like?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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I dunno eKat, I'm knot sure I'd use (much less envision)
two Locker's!!! One on this earth is more than enough!!!
Guffaw!!!!
(Just kidding, Lockerman!)
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Naturally I thought of the other kind O Bong first and I say what? Cross-loading, I get it now. I guess I thought he was cross-loading the SP somehow. Seems like grid-locks could ad some unwanted torque somehow/somewhere.
I'd use 2 biners - I don't trust that stuff.
Anyone working on an SP you don't have to take off the harness every pitch? Kind of an interesting project.
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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In messing with my unit, this is the worst situation I could come up with. It's pretty unlikely, but may be a possibility.
If the SP were to catch either on the gate or just above (as in the photo) placing a leveraging type of load on the carabiner gate, I see two possibilities
1) breaking the gate or leveraging it open or
2) bending and/or breaking the attaching point on the SP
As I said, very unlikely, and could possibly be mitigated by placing the screw gate in toward your body. Or not. Thinking about it, would be more of a possibility if you fall inverted and pull the SP toward your feet. Anyway, leverage on a gate is bad.
http://ferforge.tripod.com/Doseme008.htm
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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^that is why I have them opposite and apposing . aka one gate towards my body. It's kind of a bitch to undue when your doing a bunch of pitches but worth the security in my mind.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Clint said: "Using 2 biners prevents the two shells of the device from rotating and opening a gap between the "rope retaining bars" on the bottom end of the device.
If a gap exists, the rope could easily escape through it, and the angle of the rope strands through the clove hitch could then get out of its designed range."
Thanks for that Clint, I'd thought it was for redundancy.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Given that the average biner breaks that way at about 7kn, you have two biners. 14 kn. You'll never break both biners.
Also, you would have to consider the rope stretching to stop your fall, how much force is that putting on you? Far less than it takes to break two cross loaded locking biners, I suspect.
Couch, I'm sure it's also for redundancy.
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Roots
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I'm rock'n a Gridlock on my Mini-Traxion if that information helps you at all.
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the czar
climber
meyers, ca.
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you can also use a gatekeeper by metolius.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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even though the manual says to ???
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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On Iron Hawk last year, I used a big BD auto locker and a Petzl William screw gate. On a wall, after every pitch, you have to remove the SP from your harness. I found that in the cluster of my belay loop, harness leg loop and harness tie in point, that getting the SP off of two biners was quite the job.
That's one of the (admittedly few) advantages of the Solo-Aid device. Tie in with 8mm cord, don't untie until you top out. Can't crossload cord. I love my clunky ol' inconvenient as hell Solo-Aid.
I use the Gridlock when on mini, backed up to knots on sep locker.
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Getch
Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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The manual seems a bit outdated. it mentions a swami belt and leg loops, if you were to use those then yes, they show it correctly attached. Below that diagram it also says "BE SURE TO ATTACH BOTH CARABINERS TO A SECURE
PART OF YOUR HARNESS." I edited my previous post.
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julton
climber
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Silent Parnter manual:
"Clip the carabiners into both the waist belt and leg loop strap of your
harness. If your harness uses a belay loop, clip to the same parts
that the loop goes around. Don’t clip to the belay loop."
So it explicitly says not to clip to the belay loop.
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Getch
Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Bad practice... no manufacturer recommends connecting a carabiner that way. Not sure why they would.
I emailed rock exotica. never looked into it much but a little scary. You can't use it properly with any available harness. Looks like some bad liability...
Their other two devices recommend tying with 9mm cord to your harness.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2013 - 01:38am PT
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On occasion I've used my SP attached to my belay loop (with a Skinner backup doughnut). Mostly when I get to tired of the clusterf*#k trying to get two big biners and two daisies all looped through the legloops/waistloop combo (and maybe a fifi in there too). does make things easier.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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I tried the two gridlock configuration. IMHO it is too much work. Sure with time and practice it would get easier but seemed like a PITA.
Big loop was in the harness, small loop for the SP. One gate on top one on the bottom. Difficult to put it on and take it off for sure.
Wes
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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OK, I see now why they are called "Gridlock" carabiners Wes....lol!
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Deekaid
climber
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I would like to see Ekat chime in here. I started using my SP off the belay loop after a post here by Dave Turner (who seems pretty experienced to me) saying to use the loop because it allows the SP to rotate as needed when turning side to side etc. It seems to allow the rope to feed smoother and avoids the cluster and reduces the possibility of the biners remaining in cross load after a fall.
I originally used DMM Belay Masters lockers but it was too fiddly. I now use DMM "I can't remember whats" with a 12 kn side load rating.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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My waist to face distance is pretty small so I wanted to keep the thing as far away as I could. If I was taller, I might put it on my belay loop. The belay loop is always such a cluster on a wall though..
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Deekaid
climber
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The tie in point is a cluster as well. I am 6' tall and I tested the face smack factor before trusting it. But I am definitely open to new ways. I just don't like how the biners act when put through the tie in point. But Werner will probably say I am over-thinking it.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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gridlock traffic,
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Deekaid
climber
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Rockermike
What is a Skinner back up donut?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
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skinner "back-up doughnut". Extra belay loop tied out of 9/16 inch super tape. In case your main loop fails. Tod Skinner died rappelling when his belay loop failed, so I have an extra loop on all my harnesses. Overkill I know, but makes me feel good.
Norwegian has a pretty clean looking set up there. I've never done the 10 loops at once thing. I usually have two loops and the rest in a rope bucket back at the anchor. Looks like a lot of weight, but if we were looking for "easy" we'd stay home, right? ha
While we are on the subject, I've asked before but I don't think I've ever gotten a good answer; I see some people carry their slack rope in a back pack. But how do you do backup tie-ins if the rope in in a pack? Maybe don't bother with back-ups. Maybe have the rope snake out of the pack to clip in, then back into the pack. I can't see a smooth way to handle it. I I suppose a huge knot at the end of the rope would keep you from flying off the end, but I don't want to go 150' before being stopped. That's just me.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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I have not used my SP yet but I would use the pack method and just pull a couple loops out. I also would rig some type of drag device so the rope can't run out of the pack, but if you are tying off, that would be unlikely.
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youri
climber
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I climbed more then 200 pitches with the sp and maybe 100 on the soloist. I personally prefer to use a small locking and a normal strait gate biner (inverted and opposed) and tie in the belay loop. I feel safe, have taken whippers and climb easier especially when I put the thing over a high knee, the rope still feeds fine. If I tie into the tie in points, the rope does not feed because of too much friction on the high knee... And yes I will die going against the manual advices but I doubt this one makes the game dangerous. I have been putting another loop to back the belAy loop before but I prefer to change harness when it is worn. changing the harness is probably the better wAy IMO...
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Deekaid
climber
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Youri, I agree. Rockermike, thanks for the reply.
edit: except I use the two DMM lockers as stated previously. The SP goes on and off fairly smooth.I have tried a few different biner set ups and they all allowed some kind of binding. I can't remember nor does it say on the biner what it is called but it was the highest rated side load locker I could find that wasn't steel.
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ElCapPirate
Big Wall climber
Reno, Nevada
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I haven't used a SP for years. I liked everything about it but the bulk, I just couldn't get past it.
I use a steel carabiner when soloing when it's my only biner I'm using. With the SP you wouldn't really need a steel, however, since you should be using two anyway.
My main aluminum biner is this guy...
The Pirate:
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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I want one of those, Ammon, but I want you to autograph it!
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TREED
Trad climber
Gunks
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Steel locker when soloing.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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ECP...that biner is a bad mofo..i usee the same one but with that little cross loading preventer latch.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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is there any reason to prefer D's to ovals or pears? I would think D's are less prone to shifting and maybe cross-loading too
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j-max
Trad climber
Seattle
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May 29, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
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Maybe I'm being dense (and perhaps dangerous), but I find that the obvious solution of girth-hitching a draw-length sewn runner through the two tie-in loops and clipping the SP to that with two lockers alleviates a lot of cluster around my crotch... okay, to be honest, there's not THAT much cluster down there.
Make sure that the runner isn't too long... I can imagine the SP cracking a sternum in half under the wrong circumstances. And two runners would be safer, I suppose, but (sadly) I only own the one.
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