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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Apr 25, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
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I agree with the OP that the whole gym method of putting your hand above the belay device, esp. the way they teach it in most gyms, seems really sketchy. I'd like to watch what happens if someone were to take a lead fall while the belayer using an ATC has their hand up high like that and they're doing that bizarre matching technique with one hand while they slide the other hand down. But of course they don't see what might happen, since they are using gri-gris and toproping.
I had someone working in a gym once tell me that the way I belayed, using one brake hand always below the device, was called the "french sliding technique" and that it was dangerous since while my hand was sliding down the rope, I was not technically holding the rope. I found that kind of laughable.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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This discussion is pretty meaningless without even mentioning what kind of device you will be using (even then, it's pretty meaningless because either way is perfectly fine with advantges in some situations and disadvantages in others).
Jebus is spot on when he says:
I do both ways interchangeably and have never had a problem stopping a fall or with burning any part of my person.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 25, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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We are talking about tubular devices or atc's like the one in the op pic.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 25, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
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What are these tubular devices u guys are talkin aboot that u got ur palms all over? Does it feel like someone else is doing it for u when u go thumbs down on your tubular device??
Ever try switching hands??
Lol sorry I'm havin a good time over here. This thread is priceless, maybe a troll too.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 25, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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Ever try switching hands??
I like to sit on my hand till it falls asleep and goes numb... then it feels way different.
The first time I went climbing, I was taught to hip belay. A "Sierra Sow" is what they called the thing you had to catch. It was about 175 lbs, fell about 15 feet and you could not see it or hear the latch release.
Most folks dropped the sow to the deck the first time.
The force hit you in a pretty violent manner, very sobering.
Made me take belaying very seriously.
If I owned a gym,and wished to make my gym safe, I would make people catch the "Sow".
I do go palms up or down, depending on the situation but I always keep the hand below the "TUBE" so you are mostly locked off all the time.
I have watched some who sort of daydream whilst belaying.... you know both hands above the tube... and seen them drop people 20-30 feet on TR!!!!!
And get a hand burn on the uphill side of the rope..... serves them right.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:23am PT
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Well, I do agree it doesn't really matter as long as your belayer is competent with whatever method they use. I don't really care as long as someone isn't going to drop me.
That being said... I'm of the opinion that palm-up was carried over from hip belay days. It works OK but isn't the best. The pinch-and-slide above-the-device (actually a separate issue) has absolutely no place in modern instruction IMO. If I'm teaching someone, I always teach palm down. It's a more natural position for your arm and the strongest part of your hand controls the rope.
Although there really is no extensive studies that I'm aware of.. my own personal experience is all the "empirical proof" I need. My first regular partner outweighed me by 70 pounds. It didn't take too many lead falls before I rapidly ditched palm-up/pinch slide BS I had been taught for a much more secure grip and greater control of the rope.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:40am PT
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I like to sit on my hand till it falls asleep and goes numb... then it feels way different.
Ahhh...the "Stranger"...a classic.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 26, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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I'd like to add something about grip strength related to women belayers. One of the remarkable things about climbing is that when it comes to climbing performance, there is essentially no gender gap. This makes it easy to forget that on average, women's grip strength is lower than men's. From a climbing perspective, this makes no difference because, on average, women are also lighter than men. But the distinction may not be insignificant when, say, a 100 lb woman belays a 200 lb man. A system designed, if you wish, to be "operated" by someone with the grip strength of a 200 lb man is in this case being "operated" by someone with the probably lower grip strength of a 100 lb woman.
It still won't matter most of the time, because systemic friction will reduce the loads enough not to test the belay. But I think the very fact that the belay is usually successful may be a source of complacency. If a much more serious fall happens---and thank god such occurrences are rare---the belayer will need every grip advantage available to her, and to weaken her grip, even a little bit, with a palm-up position seems to me like a flawed strategy.
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crøtch
climber
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Apr 26, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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I did some rudimentary pubmed searching for "grip, strength, supination, pronation" but wasn't able to find what I wanted. Does anybody have an idea what the percent difference is between palm up and palm down grip strength? Is the variance more than say left vs. right? Or climber vs. non-climber?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 26, 2013 - 11:48am PT
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The pinch-and-slide above-the-device (actually a separate issue) has absolutely no place in modern instruction IMO.
Thank you JTM! This is the discussion! Not this palm down palm up rhetoric...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 26, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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Crotch, I don't know of any data. Moreover, I'm using "grip strength" in a systemic sense, not in the absolute sense that you might expect to get data on from a clinical study. By "systemic" I mean, among other things,
1. It is almost impossible to orient the palm-up braking hand vertically, so
a. the brake strand applies lateral force to the pinky, prying open the hand finger by finger from the weakest side.
b. you can't bend the braking strand as far around the device with palm up as you can with palm down.
Taken together, these two things mean the hand is in a weaker position and less friction can obtained from the device with the palm up. Does this matter? Mostly no. But always?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Thank you JTM! This is the discussion! Not this palm down palm up rhetoric...
Mike,
1. The OP was concerned about possible loss of control of the belay as a consequence of the method employed, and that's the question I addressed with the palm orientation observations.
2. The "superior" technique in which the rope is (partially) locked off while the brake hand slides back to the device is very awkward with the palm up, so palm orientation is part of "the discussion" no matter what.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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Depends if ur chopping a tree down or splitting firewood QITNL. Are u swinging for the fence or trying to one hop it between second & first? Nice pic.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
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I don't give a sh*t, as long as my belayer is comfortable and competent in what they're doing, their brake hand is where it should be at the right moment and that they are PAYING ATTENTION!
ec
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 26, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
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2. The "superior" technique in which the rope is (partially) locked off while the brake hand slides back to the device is very awkward with the palm up, so palm orientation is part of "the discussion" no matter what.
True, but for me, the pinch, slap, slide method with the brake strand parallel, offers little to no friction on the belay device. At the point of transition, you might as well be belaying straight off the locking biner.
The hands down brake locked method is much more secure if you take your non brake hand off the upper stand and use it to lock the brake while you slide your hand up. That way the belay is *NEVER* compromised.
As a 200 pound man, being belayed by 100 pound females on occasion, this is VERY important to me.
Especially now, when i can't afford a fall.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 27, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
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I'm no doubt an idiot but I've never thought about this once. I learned the whole palm up, pinch manner-- I think it used to be pretty much standard??--and have always belayed that way. I've caught plenty of falls, even those I didn't know were coming and have been alright. Still, sounds like it's time for an upgrade to breaking low and facing down!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 27, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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There is no "one way". Whatever is safe, and there are many safe ways to belay. I hip belayed for years and it was the safe way to do it back then. A few months ago I was climbing with a relatively new climber and was using a quick hip belay on a easy section. He came up to the belay and just about $h!t. He was perfectly safe and there was zero chance he was going to yank me off the ledge or that I was going to drop him. It's all about level of comfort, I was very comfortable using a hip belay, he had never seen it before and he wasnt so comfy with it. D
Don't over think it, it's just climbing.
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