Fools are good for society

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Tung Gwok

Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 19, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
While I have added to a number of discussions on Super Taco, I have never started a thread. I could call this one "The Friday Night Posting While Still a Greenhorn" post, but one of you is likely to sue (or punch) me for trademark violation, so I thought I would visit a neverbefore broached topic: why are there so many undeserving beggars on the forum? (note irony)and answer, Because we need them, both person and society need them.

I know, there's that criticism that such a view breeds complacency social justice-wise. But I am talking about the opposite. I am saying that it is only in the expenditure of yourself on behalf of others that you come to realize that we -- even the collective we -- cannot solve all of the world's problems in our lifetimes. It is in that moment that we realize that the poor person is just that, a person rather than a problem to solve or a project of our own. Rather, we see the poor, the crippled, the blind, the hungry, the persecuted, as someones. At this point, we start learning from them. If our solidarity is in this -- self-critically in this -- surprised by those the world considers fools, then we have a chance of having -- and helping others have -- a life worth living.

That's all anyone can ask.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
If you could ask in the form of a question, that would help.

There is no ask in your OP because it is a statement.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
I thought you had just visited the Boston thread.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
I'm a fool of the heart and I'm glad society tolerates me.

DMT
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
There's a ? Jim, but also an answer -so I'm stumped. I'm sure somebody will have an opinion tho......


why are there so many undeserving beggars on the forum? (note irony)and answer, Because we need them, both person and society need them.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Statements that start with a conclusive title, then follow with an intriguing question and also provide a l-o-o-o-ng answer are self serving.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 19, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
I agree Jim, just trying to figure out if I'm good for society or not?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
If you have to beg, you are deserving.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Tung Gwok, aren't you getting a little far afield from the Euclidian Theorem, "Money is God's Report Card"?

Stuff might break off out there. Take care!
Fletcher

Trad climber
The great state of advaita
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
We need true fools. Socrates' defense (as portrayed in Plato's Apologia) is, in part, about him being told by the Oracle at Delphi that there was no one wiser than Socrates. He couldn't understand how this was true, since he considered himself to know nothing compared to all that could be known. He then visits various characters in society and realizes that while they think themselves wise, they just think they are. And show themselves to be huge boneheads. Eventually, Socrates comes to understand he is the wisest man because he knows that he knows nothing.

So call me a fool! I don't know Jack Sh#t and Jack just left town! Ha ha!

Tangential side note: Sophomore comes from the greek sophos (wise) and moros (fool). Thus, a wise fool.

Shakespeare used fools to inject smart characters into his plays... think of the fool in Lear ("Prithee, Nuncle!").

What was the question again?????

Eric
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 19, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Socrates was wrong of course, because he actually new something, the fact that he new nothing ;)
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 20, 2013 - 05:31am PT
Oh, Moosefool, you say the silliest things...

"Oh, I was just foolin' about..."--Curly Bill after he shot Fred White, Tombstone

Foolishness for Christ refers to behavior such as giving up all one's worldly possessions upon joining a monastic order, or to deliberate flouting of society's conventions to serve a religious purpose — particularly of Christianity. Such individuals were known as both "holy fools" and "blessed fools." The term "blessed" connotes both feeblemindedness and innocence in the eyes of God.

The term fools for Christ derives from the writings of Saint Paul. Desert Fathers and other saints acted the part of Holy Fools, as have the yurodivy (or iurodstvo) of Eastern Orthodox asceticism.

Fools for Christ often employ shocking, unconventional behavior to challenge accepted norms, deliver prophecies or to mask their piety.

Parallels for this type of behavior exist in non-Christian traditions as well. The Avadhuta (Sanskrit), for example, the Islamic tradition of Malamatiyya Sufism and other crazy-wise mystics all display similar traits.

"I'd rather be a holy fool like blah-blah-blah than a stupid fool like yada-yada-yada."--WBrain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbK-FmRWhxQ
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 20, 2013 - 06:47am PT
A worthy start to a new thread, however, it always answers better if you end the paragraph with a direct attack at peoples intelligence, or a bold statement of position that essentially says "I know the bald face truth and the rest of you clownpunchers are douchbags, this is the way it really is and you don't know shit". Otherwise we all wind up nodding our heads, agreeing and liking each other as if we were are talking to jstan. Conflict is what's needed to gain traction.

So sorry to say that your thread will soon sink into oblivion, but I liked your post. Congrats on starting your first thread. May there be many more....with climbing pictures.

Carry on!

Tung Gwok said:
"While I have added to a number of discussions on Super Taco, I have never started a thread. I could call this one "The Friday Night Posting While Still a Greenhorn" post, but one of you is likely to sue (or punch) me for trademark violation, so I thought I would visit a neverbefore broached topic: why are there so many undeserving beggars on the forum? (note irony)and answer, Because we need them, both person and society need them.

I know, there's that criticism that such a view breeds complacency social justice-wise. But I am talking about the opposite. I am saying that it is only in the expenditure of yourself on behalf of others that you come to realize that we -- even the collective we -- cannot solve all of the world's problems in our lifetimes. It is in that moment that we realize that the poor person is just that, a person rather than a problem to solve or a project of our own. Rather, we see the poor, the crippled, the blind, the hungry, the persecuted, as someones. At this point, we start learning from them. If our solidarity is in this -- self-critically in this -- surprised by those the world considers fools, then we have a chance of having -- and helping others have -- a life worth living.

That's all anyone can ask. "
thekidcormier

Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
Apr 20, 2013 - 07:18am PT
Everyone's an idiot but me...
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 20, 2013 - 07:44am PT
Some fools show off at 5:31 AM ;)

Some are humble even at 7:44 AM ;)
Tung Gwok

Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2013 - 09:22am PT
1:06 a.m. Nope, not from another thread. This is what I was after: I am used to one of the purposes of Taco being to make me think. The best threads make me do that. "Every Picture Tells a Story" begins with Guido posting a picture that he thinks tells a story. What I attempted to do wasn't any different. Sometimes a specific event prompts reflection. Boston.

I might not have done a good job of it. But there it is. Give me an alternative. That's how it goes. That's what I'm used to. I was trying to speak in a way that expected an exchange of ideas – “not this, that.” Not a funny thread this time. I try to go that way sometimes though. A couple years ago, I came across one of my own report cards from when I was about 10. You know that space where the teacher gets to comment. It said, “Thinks he’s funny.” Comedy is hard, though. If everyone just says, “aw f*#k,” then, that’s it. You are f*#ked.

Peter, let me think about it. Yes, I might break something or something of mine might get broken. That’s its own kind of violence. yes.

…………………………………………

Jim, you state things much more clearly than I do. But what I am saying is different. If I were clearer, I would have said, "The poor are deserving too." That "too" is important somehow. I am not sure just how. Perhaps you intended to say that I thought the poor were deserving of their poverty. Nope. Again, just the opposite. I spent a stretch of time as a young adult without health insurance, working for five dollars an hour. I’m not wealthy by American standards (though certainly by world standards). Fortunate. In many ways. Yes. A question for me is, “What now?” If I fell on harder times again, I’d like to think that I’d have whatever it is that asks for help. (Again). That’s it. I have been lucky to have it forthcoming when I needed it. Probably the luckiest was having parents for whom statements were questions. Someone (five kids in the family) saying “this” so another says “that” and both say hmmm…what about…and without realizing it, you both realize,

But my household was also racist.

“They like to keep to themselves.”

I am writing because my younger daughter, Honora, is keeping me awake. It is 2:28 a.m. here. My chin is on the kitchen table. Every few minutes or so – or so it seems to me -- I go in to tell them to be quiet. They look at each other and then confer – go on to talk - about what I just said. Honora has two black and two white girls over for her first homegrown slumber party. One of them has no legs from just above the knee. She’s doing headstands in my wingback chair. That’s something. And I think it is something better than what I knew.

This is getting long.
The pithy saying is good too. Exactly.

3:17 DMT: me too. Yep.

Fletcher. Plato, there’s a source. Good story too. Plato is best. He always throws me off because he’s at one point so rational, and then he is talking about chariots going across the sky.
Moosedrool: Yes, Socrates was wrong. In the right way. He has to be wrong. He is wise. Because if he is not then the rest of us are pretty f*#ked.

Mouse: thanks for the history lesson.

And we are all, most of the time, self-serving, yes. No argument there. None at all.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 20, 2013 - 10:02am PT
thanks for the history lesson

that was the educational part, except that, and this is sad but true: in telling a funny story there's a teller, a listener, and the poor, helpless or hapless butt, i'm afrreud

that's the end of the educational part and i learned that in a junior college

here's the entertaining part of prof mouse's lecture on social thingamaboobs

Zobra on the Fools was the ostensible topic; this showed up on the U-Tube 99 periscope:
It's what Larry, Moe, and Curly are all about. The French love Les Tros Idiots.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 20, 2013 - 10:45am PT
Oh, boy, just what we need - one more reasonable well-spoken kind soul.

BTW, I'm rolling thru yer patch in July, how's the climbin'?
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! ;-) (I'm from Chicago so no need to answer)

Gotta run- off to JTree - sorry to rub it in. :-)
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 20, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
You will be in Delhi in July, Reilly???
Tung Gwok

Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Learned a lot from these guys.
Credit: Tung Gwok
hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
Apr 21, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
I prefer to think of myself as just "mostly stupid"
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 21, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
I thought I couldn't get any more foolish, then I started taking gabapentin. New levels have been reached. No kidding!
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