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426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jun 22, 2006 - 08:38am PT
LEB-

Watch Cliffhanger, it's 'loosely' based on the Stonemaster experience and will provide several answers to the q's you posit...(premise by John Long).
OldEric

Trad climber
Westboro, MA
Jun 22, 2006 - 09:39am PT
For those who take LEB at face value - call me - I can get you an incredble deal on a bridge in Brooklyn
G_Gnome

Social climber
Tendonitis City
Jun 22, 2006 - 09:43am PT
Hmmmm, climbing, drugs, rock and roll. I never knew if I was a Stonemaster back when there really were Stonemasters. I climbed with them all, I climbed hard like they did, I climbed almost every day, but somehow I did not fit in as well as some others. I was a few years older, already out of college and with a job so I never did the whole summers in the valley/meadows thing. So I guess I was a part-time Stonemaster. However, I spent all my time with some of them. Most went to school and worked and saved so that they could spend all summer in the valley. But every weekend was spent at the rocks.

More than anything it was a passion (one I still live, thankfully) for climbing. We embraced this new ethic of clean climbing (no pitons) and continually pushed the difficulty up. The fact that there were few of us really made it a group thing and I think that is the difference from today. Nowdays there are so many climbers that you don't get the same dynamic. Then there were maybe 30 people at Josh/Suicide every weekend and we climbed together and pushed each other every day. And we got stoned together every day and every night. We became a community. We were all pretty different than the average American and we knew it. We were PROUD of it! Most of us still are.
Grug

Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
Jun 22, 2006 - 09:45am PT
Watch the first part of Ace Ventura, Pet Detective; When Nature Calls...it's loosely based on Cliffhanger. Althought Sly is pretty funny without trying, JIm Carrey is flat-out hilarious. "You know, you could poke somebody's EYE out with that thing!"
Hootervillian

climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
Jun 22, 2006 - 09:57am PT
LOL.


BumbleBeeTuna rockjock.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2006 - 10:51am PT
If you troll at a high intellectual level then you will catch high intellect responses...

...if you do it at a low level, then you get the commensurate response.

As we all know, we don't have to respond to a troll, we choose, and we also choose the way to do it.

There is no relevance for the question who, what or why the avatar LEB. The dialog is the only relevant issue. (Sounds like neomodernist deconstruction).
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 22, 2006 - 11:00am PT
Hmmm? Sounds almost Mcluhan-esque.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jun 22, 2006 - 11:54am PT
Hey Ed, did you catch the nice compliment that Jaybro paid to us? Thanks, Jay.

I don't remember what that thread was all about--didn't it all start with Lois asking about alternative reality and getting it all mixed up with dope, sex, and rock and roll? Or was it 'A Separate Reality.' Then Ed got into a snit because he wanted to hear about ‘Separate Reality’ and Lois was doing her not trolling--thank you very much--thing, by which she means that if she were going to troll then she would have to have an alternative understanding of the term, and she is sincere by which she means that she is not insincere, and she is really interested which means she is not a troll, and has bone fides to prove it if it comes to that because she can explain it all so concretely and as is clear to anyone that no self respecting real troll would assume that it would all get read, quod erat demonstrandum, (but I was a little shocked to be told that Lois had morays with her boyfriends in the 1970s)....

And, I think Werner helped out on the Multiple Realities thread by telling everyone--I mean EVERYONE--on the web that we all got up climbs through a secret door, that wasn't so secret since all climbers know it is there.

Stonemasters my eye--SecertDoorMasters is closer to the truth. Which is one anwer to Lois' question, I guess. I always wondered why those guys climbed so much harder than the rest of us. Hey, Mike or Werner, why didn't you tell me about the door thing?

PS: Lois, I'm not a 'Stonemaster.' But, I am teasing you about your not-trolling protestations--reminds me of a line from Hamlet.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
Roger, I got the compliment that Jay offered us...
and you are right that I was a bit pissed off at LEB for being so utterly clueless regarding a famous climb... but feeling the right to be utterly clueless and insisting on that right. The only alternative was to actually post something of quality responding to LEB's ignorance on climbing matters, or descend into mud slinging a la SNL "Jane you stupid slut" point-counterpoint sort of thing.

Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 22, 2006 - 12:53pm PT
This is too funny! And the kind of stuff that would get lost in a divided forum.

I was also complimenting Lois, though she didn't take it that way, I guess. If you can ask those pithy, though seemingly guiless questions in that innocent Columbo-like (or the inspector in Crime & Punishement [same guy,btw]) way and inspire people to explain and illustrate in the way that you guys did, that is a good thing.

Wish I could do it!
I await your next collaboration.

Jay-onsightedSeperaterealityintheieghtiesandwaspartofthepossiblyfirstteamto
experienceaYaquibasedseperatrealityontopofdevil's
towerafewyearsearlier-bro
scuffy b

climber
Chalet Neva-Care
Jun 22, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
I thought I had a Jaybro sighting the other eve but then I thought "There's no way that guy's feet are getting into 39
Mythos, No Way"
El Rayo-X Tshirt, specs, hairline etc.

By the Way, the road to Ebola is open now.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
Jaybro et al.,

You miss the point, entirely. If I am asking a question it is because I want to know the answer! Typically, it is not something readily "googleable" although I will admit perahps sometimes it is. Mostly, the answer to what I am seeking is more subtle or else it would require an realm of experience and/or perspectives which I don't happen to have. True there might be a "picking your brains" quality to it and on that count, perhaps I am guilty. I DO pick brains (frequently, in fact), but here, I do not have the opportunity to do so. Here, no one is obligated to respond.

It is not as though I have a captive audience whereupon I can then asked tons of questions in an effort to extract information from xyz person. I can only get the information I am seeking by structuring a question so as to be interesting enough to provoke someone to respond. It is not like I am face to face in a room with someone whereupon they would be sort of obligated to answer a question I asked. If that is "trolling," well then maybe I am guilty as charged. If asking questions designed to draw you out and get you to talk about some of your ideas, expertise and experiences is "trolling", then perhaps I DO troll. If I am "pushing buttons," it is because I find many forum members here to be *very* interesting people and I want to hear what you have to say. I must say that many of you come up with some fascinating posts in response to the questions I pose.

I am here a year now. I rarely stay *anywhere* that long. It is actually a testamonial and compliment to you all. You are, for the most part, rather intelligent people. Many of you are extremely funny and witty. Others of you are quite knowledgeable in a variety of very interesting subjects, most of which have not much to do with climbing (I never read climbing threads; I never have the vaguest idea of what you are talking about in these threads - you might as well be speaking Greek).

In contrast to the general population, most of you here are exceedingly interesting (and non-shallow) people, all of which collectively serves to hold my interest. It has been a year now and I have not grown tired of you all yet which is very, VERY usual for me. Most forums which I join begin to bore me after a day or two - some last as long as a week maybe two but that is about it! A year? That has never happened before.

As for all these questions about the 70s, I am VERY interested in analyzing that topic and, then, there are many of my peers here. I am trying to sort it all out on some level and I very much want to hear your perspectives and your experiences in this regard. I say it was a very unique time in history but then maybe I am blinded by close proximity. Many of you came of age then. In that regard, I most definitely want to hear your perspectives. Finally, to the guy who wants to sell you all the bridge I say "Yeah, right!"

Lois
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 22, 2006 - 04:35pm PT
simple enough lois,
i enjoy gabbing with you.

there is an upgraded filter at play when conversing with an outsider and that helps to clarify things. i enjoy healthy conjectural discourse; so on my end this is a fascinating and productive two way street.

i am cheerfully working on an enthusiastically detailed response to the original questions you posed and hope to have some thoughts together in a wee bit.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 22, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
Perhaps I missed it, but I was wondering if LEB might tell us a little about herself, and why she's so curious about our community. Placing the EB, so to speak, on the other foot.

Anders
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
Lois - you have been accepted as a part of the ST Forum community... if you had not you would have suffered the same fate as Raj did, in terms of response to your posts. So it isn't default, you've been around for a year both because you remain interested and because we respond to your interests.

It's mutual...

I guess we like your posts too.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2006 - 05:38pm PT
Mighty Hiker,

This forum is primarily male and women are socialized from an early age not to talk much about themselves when interacting with males. Rather we are taught to ask questions of men and listen ("intrestedly") to what they have to say. That is precisely the way we are socialized and it is not an easy habit to break. Why? The most direct answer I can give you to is is because "it just is so" and, more importantly, that sort of dynamics "simply works."


Women who are very self-focused, self-centered and who talk alot about themselves typically don't get much attention from men over the long run. The reverse, however, is not necessarily true. In fact, commonly it is NOT true. We can argue that there is a "double standard" or else it "should not be that way" or even that it is "patronizing." Be that as it may, it still none-the-less the way *is* the way it is .....period.

Now having said that, if you want to know anything about me, you have only to ask and I will tell you (assuming it is not an overly personal question). Don't expect me, however, to spend a lot of time talking about myself with a largely male audience because that is simply not how we are socialized as women. If you want to know something, ask. Barring that don't expect a whole lot of information to be forthcoming in that context.

By contrast, when I email Kath (Blinny), I tell her a great deal about myself, my life, my experiences, my feelings, etc. etc. and visa versa. In fact, when we get to know other women, we each talk alot about ourselves. That is absolutely NOT the way to go if and when we want to get to know one or another men we meet.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 22, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
Thanks, Lois. I hadn't considered what might be the applicable behavioural norms - although I may not subscribe to them in any case. I wasn't being snoopy. I was just curious about why you're curious - I thought you might have a professional or academic interest, or something of the sort.

With the anonymity and pen names that abound on forums, it's difficult to know anything about contributors.

I'm fairly new to the SuperTopo forum, and indeed forums in general, and will gladly learn about etiquette. There are some interesting and intelligent people involved. It's always nice to learn about those in your community, and sometimes helpful. Though as you rightly mention, not everyone is interested in hearing our life histories, nor is it always wise to tell them.

Anders (real given name, male, 49, climber since 1971 - Chris Mc. kindly shifted my user ID from my proper name to Mighty Hiker, a boy scout nickname)
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Jun 22, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
Stonedmasters?
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
MightyHiker, No I honestly find you guys fascinating. I truly do. It is not "an act." Granted, I may use an MO to which I have been socialized, but the reality is that I really do find you guys fascinating and I really do want the answers to all these questions I asked. If I seem to be "trolling" it is only to frame the questions in such a way as to peak interest and guarentee responses. If that is "trolling" so be it.

I had a male friend once with whom I would talk hours upon hours on the phone at all hours of the day and night. We just literally never ran out of things to say (although I will tell you that we spent most of the time talking about HIS life and HIS problems, but that's OK - I liked him and I found his life rather interesting.) We could talk 5 hours at a clip on the phone and never run out of conversation. In fact, he traveled a great deal all over the world (he was a reservist flight surgeon in the Air Force) and I could get him to call me literally from anywhere in the world just by thinking about him and sending out mental "signals" that he should call me. I'd start sending out a mental message for him to call me and sure enough ..ring ring - he'd be there. It worked almost every time.

Anyway, he was physically attracted to this particular woman and she was also attracted to him. Accordingly, he would take her out now and again (because he truly liked her and he *was* attracted to her) and then when he got home, he would call me the second he got in the door to tell me that yet again he was bored out of his mind.

I knew exactly what he meant, I liked her too and she *was* terribly nice, she was reasonably pretty, even BUT........she was also VERY, VERY BORING. You just could *not* make conversation with this woman, no matter how nice she was and no matter how much you *wanted* to like her. She just never had anything interesting to talk about. When he would call s/p his date to complain I would often commiserate. I liked her too but I could not talk with her either.

We all worked in the same hospital so we all knew one another. Commonly, we'd arrange our breaks to go to lunch with one another Commonly, she'd call me from another unit to arrange to have break together. Of course, whenever she called, I would always say yes and would meet her in the cafeteria for lunch or break .....BUT ... there was just *never* anything to say, no matter how hard I tried. She was so nice; you just wanted to like her but she was just so boring. In short, she just never asked any interesting questions and worse, she never had any interesting answers to anything you ever asked her.

So what is the point of all of this long-winded story? Well, the moral of this story is that- call it what you will - but there *is* something to be said about asking interesting questions so as to get people to talk about the fascinating aspects of their lives.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
Thanks, Ed. I really do like hanging around here. I used to feel very out of place but I don't feel that way anymore. Part of the forum is about climbing, for sure. That part I can't share. Part of the forum is just about chatting - here I try to make useful contributions. At very least, I figure I can share some medical knowledge which might help people. You guys are truly fascinating. I am not sure I can figure out why but it seems to be so. It has been noted before. I think it may be related to the skills that are needed to climb. It seems like a sport that involves a lot of mental skills as well as athleticism and then also there is a common love of the natural environment. There I DO very much relate

Tarbuster, PLEASE, do work on your post which you referenced. I very much want to read it. Will be waiting for you on that count.
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