OPPOSE the NEW Lake Mead NRA BOLT CHOPPING PLAN!!!

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 21 - 40 of total 45 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Bolts are small, and have no visual impact on the area when viewed from any distance. They are visible only up close, and then it often takes a keep eye to spot them, particularly when they are spaced as far apart as those at the Christmas Tree Pass area.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
Healyje brings up an important point. What is appropriate land use in designated wilderness? I personally rebel when I see a wilderness use policy that has uniform prohibitions at this level of detail. The Sierra Nevada high country has a plethora of boltless technical climbing, so I could justify a "no-bolt" policy there. It has certainly been my personal philosophy there.

Christmas Tree Pass, in contrast, is an area where no bolts implies no roped climbing. I rather doubt that Congress intended to remove climbing from the area when it passed the legislation designating it as wilderness. Perhaps those with the ear of a Representative (AAC? Access Fund?) might need to do a bit of lobbying there.

In the meantime, I am writing my letter. Thanks for providing some incentive.

John, I believe that the big majority of the bolted routes came before wilderness designation. Thanks for writing. The Pass is one of my favorite places, and it seems I always climb on a higher level there. There are some very bold and sustained leads at the Pass. There's a lot of choss, too, though!
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Thanks for bringing this issue up. It is certainly an interesting and unusual area.

I know climbers have been going there since at least the early seventies. I've only roped up there once, thanks in part to an enjoyable party that Ron held for Layton. From our limited forays and talks with others, it doesn't seem like this place would ever really become over run with bolts and crowds due to the nature of the rock. But you never know, it would be sad if that were to happen. It seems more like the kind of area where one enjoys exploring the desert solitude as much as the bit of climbing.

Christmas Tree Pass is a special area which we should work to protect. I believe a limited amounted of hand drilled bolting is reasonable in this Wilderness Area.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2013 - 01:19am PT
Christmas Tree Pass is a special area which we should work to protect.

Agreed.

I believe a limited amount of hand drilled bolting is reasonable in this Wilderness Area.

But that's the rub. As climbers we have clearly demonstrated we suck pretty hard at self-imposed restraint and moderation, particularly around bolting. I suspect what protects Christmas Tree Pass from such excess is it's remoteness and the fact the quality of the rock probably doesn't appeal much to younger climbers. Were it closer to town and of better quality rock it would likely have been retro / grid bolted long ago.
andrewsolow

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 07:35am PT
the quality of the rock probably doesn't appeal much to younger climbers
This is off topic, but it might interest someone.

I spent a total of roughly 9 months at Christmas Tree Pass in 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980. The rock quality is a lot better than most people are aware of. It's quartz monzonite like Joshua Tree. Some if it is rotten. But, a lot of it is really solid. I tested 1/4" x 1 1/8" bolts both statically and dynamically in that rock and found that the bolts pulled out with a static load of about 2,500 lbs using SMC hangers.

The main problem with the rock is that it is very sharp. We climbed there from October thru April and wore rugby shirts and painters pants to protect us from the rock. Our clothes took a beating, but protected our flesh from abrasion damage. The longest falls we took were 40-50 foot sliders.

The other problem with the rock is that there were a lot of small quartz crystal intrusions. The most difficult rock to hand drill is relatively hard rock with a small piece of quartz protruding half way into the hole you are hand drilling (using a 20 oz or 24 oz hammer). That tends to bind and break off the drill. (Any of you folks ever change a taper shank drill bit when you were run out 30+ feet and standing on a greasy little quartz knob?) We installed 200+ 1/4" bolts at CTP; and I still have hammer scars on my left hand to this day.

Frankly, hand drilling 3/8" diameter holes in quartz monzonite or granite is not very practical. But, allowing indescriminate use of lithium battery powered roto hammers in wilderness areas isn't a good idea either.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Nevada has several areas with crags, walls and canyons, that are off limits to climbers. All of these areas contain Indian artifacts and petros.. Some are very remote as well, yet are afforded protections from further damage.

Then take into consideration the recent vandalism at the milks- with stolen and damaged artifacts. I think it probably has to do with damage to x-mas tree pass and its treasures. Theres many an area where we just plain went CRAZY with bolting. I wont mention those areas, but you all know them well.

That sets a certain precedence in the minds of administrators that now affects the decision making process in a negative manner. Bolting went out of control a while ago. I would imagine we will being paying that piper now and in the future. For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 11, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
HJ, Ron:

Good points. I think some climbers are an irresponsible user group and it seems imminent that we will start seeing more and more regulation as the land managers become aware of our antics.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
"There is one allegedly over-bolted cliff on the edge of the Spirit Mountain Wilderness called the Aviator Wall that could be protected by top rope. "

If that is true (and I have no idea)
why don't you just remove the excess bolts
to remove the basis for complaints?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
You are dealing with the bureaucratic mindset.

STOP TRYING TO THINK RATIONALLY!

Any argument remotely plausible that gives them something to regulate is a raison d'etre.

Good luck on talking them out of it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Then take into consideration the recent vandalism at the milks- with stolen and damaged artifacts.

Where was that?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Damn, dude, you have a massive hard-on for Ron!

Volcanic tablelands, 'Milks, it's all exactly the same. Exactly!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
not as big as your hard on for me... jesus dude, get over yourself!

I'm aware of several panels in the tablelands and the milks. I was curious if more sh#t near the milks got smashed.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 11, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
guess i should have typed down BY the milks.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
not as big as your hard on for me... jesus dude, get over yourself!

Ummm... no. Nah, I halfway like you, dude, was one of the ones who commented about the injustice of you getting CMac attacked back when you got axed to leave. It would be easy to demonstrate that the sheer volume of posts you direct towards Ron far outweighs any supposed vendetta you dream I have against you, but I'd leave the accounting to somebody more interested than I am. Don't worry though, I'll let you know when you make my vendetta list, although you are a damn sight short right now. Work harder! No, I'm just sorta agog at the Travelling Wes and Ron show, really. Does it know no bounds??!!! Hahahaha...

edit: Sorry for the thread drift, btw. I don't know much about the Xmas Valley, always hard to say when artifacts are involved.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Here is a link to post your thoughts on the plan:

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?parkID=317&projectID=16820&documentID=51955
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Sorry, dealing with a deathly ill dog... meant to write:

not as big as your hard on for my hard on for Ron.

Whatever.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Apr 11, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
Ah, whatevs, man, I guess I'm just a POS sorta peacemaker, probably should leave people to whatever pleases them.

Sorry about the dog, that really sucks. Knowing the loving little retards are most likely gonna go before us is the bitter catch.
the albatross

Gym climber
Flagstaff
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Here is a link to an Access Fund statement in regards to CTP:
(note, this and the other link I posted were from OP)

http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5726D5-6646-4050-AA6E-C275DF6CA8E3%7D/NV--Lake%20Mead%20NRA%20Wilderness%20Plan%20Comments_04.19.12.pdf.pdf
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:49am PT
Bump
Messages 21 - 40 of total 45 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews