What Is Trad ?????????

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1241 - 1260 of total 1290 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
May 4, 2013 - 10:23am PT
What Kevin and Ed said!!

And, for everyone that wants to change the rules to their liking - you're not playing the trad game anymore. You can climb any game you want, but placing gear and using sport climbing tactics is not trad style climbing. The people, like Kevin, for instance, who originally made up and played the game get to write the rules. Sheesh!

I don't always play the trad game, but I'll make sure to be clear about the style I use when asked about it. The trad game is for me, the most gratifying rock climbing game I play, but that's just personal preference; a matter of taste. It inspires me more deeply. When Ray Jardine did Crimson Cringe, that was cool. When John Bachar walked up to it and onsighted it with passive gear, that was art!

It's lying and cheating to play some other game and claim you're playing the trad game. Play the trad game or play another game, but quit whining about the rules of the trad game not being the rules you want to play by!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 4, 2013 - 11:08am PT
The stars of this era topped out in skill and strength at about 5.11, yet it is considered the 'Golden Age' of trad.

Actually, the "Golden Age" as I understand it began with 5.11 in the late sixties, just a bit before nuts were introduced and well before cams, and closed with the beginnings of 5.13. During that period in the Gunks, about fifty 5.12's were done as well as a host of 5.11's, many of them without cams. Some of these routes were bold as well as hard and are awaiting second ascents twenty years later. My guess is that eventually they'll be head-pointed rather than led ground-up.

I'd say the modern era began in the Gunks with the FFA of Twilight Zone. Since it involved some sort of "hold modification," I think it marks the transition to the modern era of the sport.

A number of comments suggest that trad is a thing of the past and that modern young climbers aren't doing it and don't even know what it is. Here's a little video of Brian Kim making the second ascent (twenty years after the first!) of the Cybernetic Wall, 5.13d, in the Gunks. I'm told he worked it ground up, the old-fashioned way. You'll note he's placing gear while climbing, so it isn't a "sport-gear redpoint." I mention this because part of the argument, at least part of the argument I've been advancing, is that there are young climbers who want to climb newer harder things without having them bolted or pre-protected and those with drills who think they speak for everyone are primarily robbing this generation of its opportunities, rather than offending a previous generation of has-beens.

http://vimeo.com/4534537#
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 4, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Oops, sorry Russ, there's more than one Twilight Zone in the world, as it turns out. I was referring, in all of my post, to that part of the Golden Age of trad climbing that transpired in the Gunks.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 4, 2013 - 07:40pm PT

And by this logic, the Classiest Classic Trad ascent was done by Honnold because he did not fall and didn't even use a rope. So, is free soling and highball bouldering the ultimate in Classic Trad?

If so, then NOW is the Golden Age.

Ironically, Honnold also bolts on rappel and even does the dreaded sport climbing.

Honnold's ascents are outstanding, but a different deal. He's mostly in a class by himself. The Golden Age where trad originated was a time in American climbing history where climbers all over the nation were beginning to focus on free climbing rather than the aid and wall climbing that was a big part of earlier generations' repertoire. Standards were raising quickly, and there were lots of major new free routes to do in America's most well known climbing areas. This was a one time deal, and as such has been called the Golden Age of freeclimbing by many climbing historians. The term Golden Age is not well defined, and if you read my post again, I mentioned that there could be more than one. The one I'm speaking of ended about when the term trad appeared.

By the way Patrick, for the last 20 years I've hardly trad climbed at all and mostly sport climb. I don't dread it in the slightest, enjoy it thoroughly, if anything I dread the thought of trying to do a trad style ascent of a trad route with the rating of the sport climbs I can do.


It isn't me, the cat is out of the bag and has been for 20 years. Go ask any 'gear climber' what they call themselves, as Tar has been, and the answer will be "Trad" while checking gear recommendations on MP and clipping chain belay anchors.

It is you that's stating your views here, and I'm sure there's lots of other climbers out there who don't know their history and don't really care about it. So you get the feedback. Us old guys are just trying to edicate you.


Because Trad now means not sport, but doesn't mean Classic Trad.

That might be what it means to you and a lot of other climbers, but it doesn't mean that to me and most of the climbers that were around when the word began to be used. "Classic Trad" just got coined in this thread, as far as I know.


...but that style was doomed for an end because to do harder moves you have to hang and keep trying the move until you get it.


Actually, climbers were doing harder and harder moves while climbing trad style. Hanging only serves to speed up the process of climbing the rating ladder, so to say you have to hang isn't accurate. You have to hang if you have to do a route that you can't do trad style.


Poor style? Perhaps, but history has shown that the vast majority of climbers, even 'Trads', want to do more and harder stuff, not have a vague style badge.

Not necessarily poor style, just not trad style. The trad badge is not awarded for a vague style. Ground up, no aid, is not vague. What you are calling trad seems vague to me.

Paco

Trad climber
Montana
May 5, 2013 - 12:03am PT
I just can't wait until they start sending people to Mars, so they can gridbolt it for my kids, and take their noisy drills and noisier debates far, far away from me, Kraus, and Wiessner.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 5, 2013 - 12:28am PT
and there is also [ . . .] training techniques including bouldering and gym climbing that top Trad climbers use today.

I always laugh when I see the idea that modern training is really "modern." Eric Beck can comment on how he and Sacherer trained when they were stuck in Berkeley. As for bouldering, I offer this:

"[Climbers from outside Yosemite] observed the intense bouldering and training."

This comes from Royal Robbins, "Summary of Yosemite Climbing," Summit Vol. 13, No. 2 (March, 1967).

I agree that technology, particularly footwear and protection, has been a big driver in the rise in standards, but I think at least as big a driver, and probably the biggest, is the competitive spirit and its effect after seeing someone else push the standard of what is possible.

Le plus ca change, le puls c'est la meme chose

John
ec

climber
ca
May 5, 2013 - 10:47am PT
Credit: ec
Gilroy

Social climber
Bolderado
May 5, 2013 - 11:01am PT
HA HA, ec! You sew funny.

We be Joe's!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2013 - 11:19am PT
that is incredibly ironic on so many levels...
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
May 5, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Some thoughts about the free climbing games and subsets that we play (with respect for Lito Tejada Flores having developed the general model in his article, "Games Climbers Play"):

1) Free Climbing - what climbers did before trad (up to around 1972); almost exclusively pins and hand tied slings for pro, one inch swamis; body belays; fall occasionally on some climbs, usually only a few times (see John Stannard Free Climbing as a subset that makes an exception to this rule); no hangs, lower to a rest stance before retry, no pulling on pro, yo-yo occasionally; on some routes better not effing fall

2) Old School Trad - associated with the clean climbing revolution that was catalyzed by the 1972 Chouinard catalog which contained "The Whole Natural Art of Protection" by Doug Robinson; mostly disappeared after cams (Friends) became more widely available around 1980; almost exclusively nuts (primarily hand knotted perlon sling hexes and stoppers) and hand tied slings for pro, two inch swamis (occasional Whillans or Forrest harnesses); usually includes use of chalk; a mix of body belays and belay plates (sometimes a chain link) for belaying; take a few falls on some climbs; no hangs; lower to a rest stance before retry, no pulling on pro, yo-yo once in a while; on some perfectly parallel cracks you either have to work freakishly hard to hang on long enough to get a hex in or can't get a hex to stick, sometimes best to just gun it until you can get something in and hope you don't effing fall; on offwidths you'll either have nothing for pro or you will have wobbly tube chocks that will help you deceive yourself into believing you have pro (using bigbros when aiming to climb Old School Trad might or might not be cheating; let's have a discussion)

2a) Old School Trad (Henry Barber subset) - pull your rope through your high point in order to re-lead your next attempt; occasionally climb barefoot and use only jammed knots for pro

2b) Old School Trad (Arizona subset) - no chalk

2c) Old School Trad (Jim Erikson subset) - no chalk and if you fall you don't try again...ever, unless it's Half Dome

3) Classic Trad - same as Old School Trad except you get to use cams and all the other modern gizmos

4) Modern Trad - same as Classic Trad except you get to hangdog and all the other stuff from sport climbing when climbing Free Climbs (established before 1972) or Trad Climbs (established ground up after 1972; may include hand drilled bolts placed on stance which is the same as for Old School Trad and Classic Trad)
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 5, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Mark,

There was a long period where I thought "free climbing" was the best way to describe what you're calling Classic Trad, and Old School Trad combined. That's really the simplest, most positively descriptive, historic word for what trad is.

The word trad has rubbed me the wrong way since I first heard it used, still does, and I know a lot of other long time climbers who feel the same way. If what I've been arguing trad is here was simply called "free climbing", like it was before sport climbing took hold, free climbing with sport climbing methods could be called simply, climbing. So you'd have free climbing, climbing, and sport climbing, climbing meaning anything goes - bolts, cams, nuts, dogging, etc, etc, sport climbing meaning anything goes with all bolt protection. Climbers would understand the distinction.

But the word isn't going away, and I've come to terms with that. While I fully appreciate your breakdown of trad disciplines, I think the challenge of getting climbers in general to appreciate the distinction between Classic Trad and Modern Trad, as you've dubbed them, is daunting enough. But it's a big and important distinction, they are in principle as different as free climbing and aid climbing.
Paco

Trad climber
Montana
May 5, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Somebody stated on here earlier that a FA 'doesn't own the rock.'

I'm not generally a boat-rocker, but I have to disagree, to a very large extent. Short of chipping, a FA's methods are the methods that define that route, and making an attempt to climb a route in the way it was first accomplished is very often the only way to preserve that route.

Obviously, not every first ascent was done in a perfect manner...which brings me to an interesting thought. Shouldn't the same universally acknowledged ethics that set a free ascent higher on the moral ladder than an aid route also discriminate against unnecessary bolting? I'm not saying you have to free-solo a route to make it worthy...but as long as there is sufficient gear to keep you from exposing yourself to a ground fall, why litter the rock with pieces of steel? With all the bolts we buy these days, builders are going to start rioting at prices.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 5, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
I still think of trad climbing as before the California era. Wool knickers, pitons, some bolts, shoulder stands, pulling on gear, occasional standing in slings, upward progress in a timely manner. free climbing up to 5.10 in horrendous boots and crap gear. Getting to the top and hikeing off. Straight shafted ice axes, Flasks of brandy, wine skins, sausages, breads and cheeses. That is trad climbing to me. The preacher Ken Nichols rock police version is simply annoying.
Paco

Trad climber
Montana
May 5, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
tradman... you got a time machine?

Edit: I'll bring some nice fennel goat cheese I picked up the other day.
pocoloco1

Social climber
The Chihuahua Desert
May 5, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
only clip rusty bolts
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
May 5, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
You can tell a trad climber by the GPIW carabiner on his necklace.


Trad Climber Spotted in WY
Trad Climber Spotted in WY
Credit: Dingus McGee
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 5, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Now I understand....
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
May 5, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
I say trad is pitons, goldline rope and dulfersitz rappelling
anything else is post trad
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 5, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
The underwear over outerwear is definetely a nice touch! It's the attention to detail that makes the whole ensemble come together!!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
May 5, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
What we really want to know, F, is where do republicans fit into trad history?
Messages 1241 - 1260 of total 1290 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews