RIP Margret Thatcher

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philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 8, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
In honor of the passing of Margret Thatcher the milk snatcher
I give you Maggie's Drawers.


photo not found
Missing photo ID#297914
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Definitely an original.

My favorite rejoinder to Thatcherism has always been Richard Thompsons's "Mother Knows Best"...
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Nice vintage memorial Philo! LOL
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
"I aint gonna work on Maggie's Farm no mo!"
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Goodbye to one of the greatest postwar leaders in the free world. She inherited an economy in greater malaise than that of the USA during the last five years, and turned it completely around. RIP.

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
RIP Margret Thatcher. One of Englands best they ever had.
Anastasia

climber
Home
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Awesome woman that historians will study for years. She is way more interesting than that silly prop of an English Queen.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
She wasn't loved by all....an MP, on hearing the news, said, "tramp the dirt down." I didn't like her politics but you had to admire her toughness and fortitude.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
She was hated by all
and just like Reagan, was the beginning of the end
They are still hurting from the damage of what the Great Conservative Takeover of the 80s did to their economy and country, just like us.
Good Riddance
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
I drew this in 1991. A lot has happened since then.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
why f hates her so much...she was right long before the left's mistakes became apparent to everyone else...her predictions for the eu:

"Germany would chafe at the inevitable need for greater inflation, and that the poorer countries would inevitably be uncompetitive and need bailouts that would not easily be forthcoming"

http://www.businessinsider.com/margaret-thatcher-on-the-euro-2013-4

her eulogy for reagan is forceful and eloquent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9eQIWKBR-s
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
I'll never forget the scene of the British navy steaming ever closer, day by day, to reclaim the Falklands. The actual war lasted all of a day. There might have been a segment of the British populace that loathed the Iron Lady's domestic policies but i would hazard to guess her unflinching resolve in the Falklands matter rekindled national pride in a good number of the discontents. R.I.P. Dear Iron Lady
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Dr F, just curious, let's say you were dying in burning car and only a Conservative could save you, would you let him/her or would you rather perish. Just wondering man, your hatred for anything not Liberal/Socialist is disturbing. Unless of course this is just your internet persona?

I Don't wish any ill will on you of course Dr, this is just a question.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
I love conservatives, I just don't like them governing.

I just have been listening to liberal radio this morning, and All I hear is the bad stuff she did, The fake war, the devastating Union Bashing, the low wages still

She was just like Reagan, loved more after she wrecked the place



and this?
Just wondering man, your hatred for anything not Liberal/Socialist is disturbing
I have to wonder about you
Socialist?? Not
I'm a scientist, I stick to the facts, not the BS talking points
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
The recent plebiscite held in Port Stanley indicates that all but one
Falklander is thankful for Maggie's resolve and wishes wholeheartedly for
'confusion to Cristina'.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
I would rather die than be rescued by a Conservative!

There are exceptions, though ;)

photo not found
Missing photo ID#287544
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
They're dropping like flies.

Annette Funicello is fluffing the Big Kahuna today too.

Truly a sad, sad day.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Moosedrool, you have to have better taste than that.....she's a 3 or 3+ max.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Shouldn't have expected anything less from this crew. Hope you don't have to eat your words some day Moosedrool. By the way, what's with all the objectifying of woman, (it's fine if Sara P. saves you as long as her big tits are in your face). I thought it was the womanizing Conservatives that did that type of thing, or, that's right, it's ok for you guys to do it, forgot about that one. Well, have fun pissing on someones grave. you people showed more respect for Saddam after he died.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Thatcher outperformed the upper class twits and gained the support of those still living.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Dirt Claud....don't be so butt-hurt over margaret...Did she include you in her will...?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Saddam was hung
She lived to a ripe old age, her time is over
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
The difference between a pop top and a pull tab.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
I ask why it appears DR F hates Conservatives so much and it means I'm butt hurt? Give me a break RJ. Is this how you shut people up you don't agree with, you play the "stop being a wuss, cry baby card". Was just wondering that's all. Could really care less what some person who I have no idea who they are and are just punching keys on a keyboard thinks. I've learned to not take this crap to seriously, especially with all the "internet persona" excuses people love to use. Hammer away RJ, rip her up, that's fine with me, I think it's lame, but I didn't personally know her.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
I ask why it appears DR F hates Conservatives so much and it means I'm butt hurt?

NO, but your following post seemed a little cheek chapped.
And the Good Doctor had even answered your silly question.

When life is on the line the only thing that matters is your humanity.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
dirt claud,Objectifying women is a bipartisan issue
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Your right Philo, I'm very butt hurt by this whole thread, what will I do with myself now? I tried to play it off, but guess it didn't work.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Dirt Cloud, it was a JOKE.

I hate all people equally. (Well, I may have a soft spot for big Boobs ;)
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
I know Moosedrool, I was just jabbing you back. I would never wish any bad sh#t on anyone here, even it it does appear like they dislike me a lot, As I said before ,you can't take this stuff to seriously.
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Nice job with Bobby Sands, Maggie.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#297992


Had an Irish priest instructor in college who called her "Maggie Thatcher the baby snatcher."

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Bobby Sands can rot in hell along with all the other Proddy and Republican
terrorists who got what they deserve. They are all the same. I was there
during The Troubles and it was a bloody horrorshow which only a few twisted
minds try to gloss over with revolting revisionist hagiographies.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
The Irish didn't ask to have a chunk of their homeland taken over by the Brits. Bobby Sands had the courage of his convictions and died in prison after a 66 day hunger strike.....wrote some pretty good poetry too.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Yeah, well the Birdman of Alcatraz liked birds but that doesn't mean he wasn't
a murderer either. There's a good chance y'all wouldn't have to put up with
me if the English hadn't caused my great-great-grandfather to leave the old
sod so I'm not giving them any kudos except for the fact that it would
have been a lot worse if they hadn't been in Ulster. They prevented a lot
of atrocities on both sides and, to their credit, seemed to piss off both
sides almost equally. In the end it took a bunch of 'mere housewives' to bring
meaningful peace. That was one Nobel Peace Prize the merits of which will
never be debated. (except maybe on SuperTopo)
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I think is was Maggie who said "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money". A very succinct criticism.
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Donini, I'm a fan too. See Hunger if you haven't. Great film about Sands.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Dirt Claud...You played it off legit... : }
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
Cool thanks, want to make sure I'm doing it right ;-)
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
I would love to hear about the good things she did for the Country.

Please, tell us how her ideology made a difference in the good for the Nation's people?

I need a freshers course.

But if you talk about the fake war, then....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:31pm PT





donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Hated her politics but, in her prime, she was a lot hotter than Palin.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Remember the English Beat's "Stand Down Margaret"?



kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Hated her politics but, in her prime, she was a lot hotter than Palin.
That isn't saying much. The only good pictures of Palin I've seen her heads on someone else's body.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Exactamundo!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
I just have been listening to liberal radio this morning,

Well now, there's your problem!


"The problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other peoples money."

-Margret Thatcher-
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Apr 8, 2013 - 08:53pm PT

"The problem with socialism is, eventually you run out of other peoples money."

The state,county and Federal employees don't need any competition
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
That English beat video was way more sedate than I remember the feeling the song gave me at the time!
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Where is my photo of that wilting DEAD Cactus??


"The problem with Fascism is, eventually you run out of Lobbyist money."

-Margret Thatcher-

And then you have to rely on the Middle Class to pay the bills, like they have done all along
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:07pm PT


Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013): Tariq Ali on Late British PM’s Legacy From Austerity to Apartheid

Published on Monday, April 8, 2013 by Democracy Now!
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/04/08-0

Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher has died at the age of 87. Thatcher was Britain’s first female prime minister, serving three terms in office. Known as the "Iron Lady," Thatcher became synonymous with austerity economics as a close ally of President Ronald Reagan. She famously declared to critics of neoliberal capitalism that, "there is no alternative." Her long-running battle with striking British miners dealt a major blow to the union movement in Britain and ushered in a wave of privatizations.

On foreign policy, Thatcher presided over the Falklands War with Argentina, provided critical support to the Chilean Dictator Augusto Pinochet, and famously labeled Nelson Mandela a "terrorist" while backing South Africa’s apartheid regime. We go to London to discuss Thatcher’s legacy with Tariq Ali, British-Pakistani political commentator, writer, activist and editor of the New Left Review.



AMY GOODMAN: We turn to the breaking news of the death of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher at the age of 87. She was Britain’s first female prime minister, serving three terms in office. Known as the "Iron Lady," Margaret Thatcher became synonymous with austerity economics as a close ally of President Ronald Reagan. She famously declared to critics of neoliberal capitalism that, quote, "There is no alternative." Her long-running battle with striking British miners dealt a major blow to the union movement in Britain and ushered in a wave of privatizations. On foreign policy, Thatcher presided over the Falklands War with Argentina and provided critical support to the Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.

To discuss Margaret Thatcher’s legacy, we go now to London, where we’re joined by Tariq Ali, British-Pakistani political commentator, writer, activist and editor of the New Left Review.

In these last minutes we have, Tariq, talk about the legacy of, talk about the tenure of the former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

TARIQ ALI: Amy, there’s no doubt about it. She transformed British politics. She basically won over the opposition. Her legacy is still very much in force, so she’s not at all dead in terms of what is going on in this country. Her policies are being carried out by the coalition government. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, New Labour prime ministers, were completely enthralled to her. She was the first person invited by Blair to 10 Downing Street when he became prime minister, to show how much he owed her, and Gordon Brown did exactly the same thing. So we have had a continuum, that the process Margaret Thatcher started off was carried on by Blair, who used rhetoric on the Iraq, Kosovo and Afghan wars very similar to the rhetoric she used on the Falklands. And this policy has continued. So her legacy is effectively to have wrecked Britain economically and to have made it a total vassal state of the American empire.

AMY GOODMAN: Tariq, can you talk about the legacy of Thatcherism for the working class in Britain?

TARIQ ALI: Well, basically, she took on the workers’ movement, which had become very strong. Trade unions were very powerful in this country, and they were effectively challenging capital by demanding a share of the take, and being quite successful. The miners’ union, one of the most respected unions in the country, challenged her. She organized the state, the use of the police, use of the secret services, to defeat them. And she did it, and she referred to union militancy as "the enemy within." She was very hot on enemies, either abroad or at home. And that phrase, "the enemy within," has been used subsequently against dissidents of other sorts by her successors.
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Here's your order Dr. F.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298017








Jaybro, I agree. Loved "One Step Beyond" BITD too.

So if you've come in off the street
And you're beginning to feel the heat
Well listen buster
You better start to move your feet
To the rockinest, rock-steady beat
Of madness
One step beyond!



GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Haha hey philo remember doing an old drawing for Bruce of Nomad Ventures? With desert vultures?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Thanks Sully, you always pull through
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Hated her politics but, in her prime, she was a lot hotter than Palin.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
When Maggie became PM unemployment in GB exceeded even Obama levels at 13.4%

When she left office it was a bit over 5%


Also the longest serving PM in British history.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
False. Thatcher was prime minister of the United Kingdom (including England) for about 11.5 years. Five or six, maybe more, have served for longer as prime minister, some much longer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom

She is the longest-serving UK prime minister of the 20th century, though.

As with Reagan, Thatcher had a somewhat undeserved record for economic management. Both governed during times of declining oil prices, and came to power when their countries' respective economies could hardly but improve, but Thatcher also benefited from continuously increasing royalties from North Sea oil and gas. She also faced a hapless Labour opposition, and had the good fortune to stumble into the Falklands war, the last gasp of UK imperialism.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
Thank goodness the Mighty Hiker comes back at the nick of time to save the day

Welcome back
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
Imperialism?

Who invaded whom?

A tinpot murderous military dictatorship did the invading to deflect attention at home to their failed policies.


sullly

Trad climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Mighty Hiker:
Sorry, but I defected over to Yellow Pines for FL 2013. You will always remain the camp host with the most.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
If somehow we could resurrect the Iron Lady in her prime, and install Donini in her cluthes, i bet he would be singing a different tune, or else....
damo62

Social climber
Brisbane
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
So Reilly,
When you 'were there during the troubles', what did you think of the 'bloody horrorshow' that was the apartheid imposed on the catholic majority by the British establishment? That which Bobby Sands and the others so bravely gave their lives to end. Do you wish Nelson Mandela would 'rot in hell'?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:25am PT
Margret Thatcher was loved and hated deservedly equally along political lines.

Her crowning achievement was not in policy of the day but by causing a sea change in perception.

Leftist ideology has struggled to recover from this comment and it's affect on the world, from Thatcher:

"And you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves first and then to also look after our neighbor. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There is no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has met an obligation."

I don't mourn Thatcher at all. She chose the path of triumphal small mindedness in gleefully savaging anyone who stood in her way. She had no compassion for divergent opinion, or the wretched she saw as "wets". Inclusiveness could have elevated her beyond what was ultimately using the world stage as a mask for what was local British politics.

We are living with the social echoes of her individualist agenda. It's become cool since the early 90's to see others having a lack of money as having some kind of character flaw.



Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 9, 2013 - 03:35am PT

A great piece a brit buddy of mine shared today on crackbook

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography.

Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.


Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."


To demand that all of that be ignored in the face of one-sided requiems to her nobility and greatness is a bit bullying and tyrannical, not to mention warped. As David Wearing put it this morning in satirizing these speak-no-ill-of-the-deceased moralists: "People praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims. Tasteless."
duncan

climber
London, UK
Apr 9, 2013 - 04:12am PT
When Maggie became PM unemployment in GB exceeded even Obama levels at 13.4%

When she left office it was a bit over 5%



I'd be interested in the source of that data because it is wrong.



Here is UK government data:



Note the more than doubling of unemployment from when she came into power in 1979 to 1984. It still had not returned to 1970s levels when she left office in 1990.

This mass unemployment was directly responsible for the flowering of Brit. climbing talent in the early 1980s. When there is 30% youth unemployment (and far higher in the North of England) throwing your energies into climbing seems a lot more productive than looking for work. Read Andy Cave’s book 'Learning to Breath' for some insight into this. Some of us even washed up on your side of the pond (you can come home now crusher!).

I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar is happening in Spain right now (current epicentre of world rock-climbing, youth unemployment now around 50%).
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:38am PT
maggie: the last of the grown-ups


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiMs165tVdw


we need fewer "puerile" politicians
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 9, 2013 - 07:52am PT
Duncan...You will have to excuse some of our posters here whose world news comes from Fox news and fear...RJ
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Apr 9, 2013 - 09:32am PT
celebating her death?

"What exactly were they celebrating? Thatcher hadn’t been in power in over 22 years. An entire generation has gone by since Thatcher left office, and the Tories have held power only briefly since. If these people are so miserable and put her in the center of that misery, perhaps they should ask why their lot in life hasn’t improved since she left office.

Normally, this kind of celebration takes place when brutal dictators die while still clinging to power, not when elected leaders pass away 22 years after they honored the will of the electorate. That’s a key point, too — Thatcher didn’t seize power and rig elections to keep it, like the mullahs of Iran or (arguably) Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. The voters of the UK made her Prime Minister, and kept her in place as she rolled out the policies that returned the British to economic, military, and diplomatic strength. If these ghouls want to protest, they should probably protest their own people instead of a long-retired popular leader whose place in history won’t be threatened..."
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 10:06am PT
Thatcher didn’t seize power and rig elections to keep it,

Like the Bush family did. There I fixed it for you.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Comments from all over the globe show how polarizing a figure she was. She may get credit for turning the UK economy around but shouldn't a lot of that go to the discovery of North Sea oil? That was one thing that really saved the UK.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
"People praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims. Tasteless."

Thanks Jim and Mike, for bringing some perspective to the table,
most Americans never hear that
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
My folks taught me long ago to not speak ill of the dead.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Her "victims?" What about the victims of those she fought? The British coal mines were nothing more than a welfare scheme for a well-connected constituency of Labour, as were so many other government enterprises of the time. Those working in areas that were pulling their weight were being dragged down by the dead weight of those sectors kept afloat in spite of their contributions to the economy. The British economy was heading toward disaster and international irrelevance, because those contributing were producing less than the subsidized were receiving.

Thatcher broke that bondage to the second coming of mercantilism, and that policy shift transformed the British economy's trajectory for the good of the country. Those working in industries that were wards of the state will always hate her, because she forced them to adapt to economic realities, rather than to live off the earnings of others. That will be the case with every leader who ends favored treatment based on non-economic criteria.

National Leftist Radio really outdid itself today on Morning Edition. Its only comment on Thatcher's death was to quote a miner bitter about her insistence that coal mines operate at a profit. He said, in effect "That made it personal," as if the mines' subsidies from profitable industries wasn't personal to the payers.

Meanwhile, we get to watch how the dangers about which she warned, all of which can be summarized as running out of other peoples' money, come home to roost on so many of the western welfare states.

John
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
She wasn't loved by all--JD

My favorite verse is all of these,

you slimy piece of cheese.



Werner would jump.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
imagine how much toilet paper she used,

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:55pm PT

My folks taught me long ago to not speak ill of the dead.


From the same article

This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power.


Tellingly, few people have trouble understanding the need for balanced commentary when the political leaders disliked by the west pass away. Here, for instance, was what the Guardian reported upon the death last month of Hugo Chavez:

To the millions who detested him as a thug and charlatan, it will be occasion to bid, vocally or discreetly, good riddance."
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Saw her speak in 94'

A great experience.

RIP
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
BigM,, Yes you make points, but to compare hugo chavez to a Margret Thatcher is stretching it. Hug chavez was a dictator over the worst homicide rates in the world...His own people..
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Time for a Ska resurgence!!!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Ron, just an article i quoted. No disrespect is intended.

The last point is valid though, the article continues, and says;

Nobody, at least that I know of, objected to that observation on the ground that it was disrespectful to the ability of the Chavez family to mourn in peace. Any such objections would have been invalid. It was perfectly justified to note that, particularly as the Guardian also explained that "to the millions who revered him – a third of the country, according to some polls – a messiah has fallen, and their grief will be visceral." Chavez was indeed a divisive and controversial figure, and it would have been reckless to conceal that fact out of some misplaced deference to the grief of his family and supporters. He was a political and historical figure and the need to accurately portray his legacy and prevent misleading hagiography easily outweighed precepts of death etiquette that prevail when a private person dies.

Exactly the same is true of Thatcher. There's something distinctively creepy - in a Roman sort of way - about this mandated ritual that our political leaders must be heralded and consecrated as saints upon death. This is accomplished by this baseless moral precept that it is gauche or worse to balance the gushing praise for them upon death with valid criticisms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with loathing Margaret Thatcher or any other person with political influence and power based upon perceived bad acts, and that doesn't change simply because they die. If anything, it becomes more compelling to commemorate those bad acts upon death as the only antidote against a society erecting a false and jingoistically self-serving history.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 12, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
She was just like Reagan, loved more after she wrecked the place

Dr F u know better!
more like reagan was taught by Margret.

get ur historical stuff right :)

RIP Margret T.

deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Apr 12, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Paul credits Maggie for the rise in British climbing standards in the 80's.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3020
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Apr 12, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Credit: guido
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:18pm PT


...


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
Here's an example of something that makes the the Evangelicals cringe.

That being the problem with Satan is, Satan ain't always wrong...

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
Is her voice impediment caused by the huge rod up her Butt?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
Craig,

Would the USA in general and yourself in particular hitch up to a supranational governing body from outside of the boundaries that make your home what it is ?

I love sharing the pie with less economically privileged regions of Canada because we are all Canadian and pull together for each other when times are tough.

That's a different brand of being social than having something imposed by some people who don't necessarily share our interests.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Her last sentience summarizes Dr Fraud.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.
Credit: Dr. F.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 12, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Back to what I said about sea change, there was a noticeable upsurge in narrow minded wealth creation during the latter 1980's in Canada.

Brian Mulroney was our PM and a leader in divesting a nation of believing that how you care for the less fortunate is a measure of a nation.

I'm not castigating people for finding alternatives to work because I tried as hard as I could to solve that dilemma, while working on climbing technique...

I'm talking about how so many rich nations used the expedience of "community integration" to close down institutions that offered various levels of care and refuge for people with mental, psychological and emotional trouble.

Crazy people living under cardboard boxes and self medicated homelessness isn't something that just dropped out of the clouds. There was a determined drive in the 1980's to divest national societies of any obligation.

Getting a job by everyone else was just the math concerning the unemployment insurance party being over and was sadly understood by many climbers !

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 13, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Here's another statement The Smiths' singer Morrissey made about the passing of Margaret Thatcher today, even more cutting than the one he made yesterday:
The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher’s death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measured you speak, the comment must be reported as an “outburst” or an ”explosive attack” if your view is not pro-establishment.

If you reference “the Malvinas”, it will be switched to “the Falklands”, and your “Thatcher” will be softened to a “Maggie.” This is generally how things are structured in a non-democratic society. Thatcher’s name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics.

Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a sh#t about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed, whereas we must all endure the obligatory praise for Thatcher from David Cameron without any suggestion from the BBC that his praise just might be an outburst of pro-Thatcher extremism from someone whose praise might possibly protect his own current interests.

The fact that Thatcher ignited the British public into street-riots, violent demonstrations and a social disorder previously unseen in British history is completely ignored by David Cameron in 2013. In truth, of course, no British politician has ever been more despised by the British people than Margaret Thatcher.

Thatcher’s funeral on Wednesday will be heavily policed for fear that the British tax-payer will want to finally express their view of Thatcher. They are certain to be tear-gassed out of sight by the police.

United Kingdom? Syria? China? What’s the difference?”
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Apr 13, 2013 - 11:49am PT
I interviewed her in 1989 when I was editor of Training Personnel magazine (Wembley/Stonebridge Park) after she had instigated the launch of the Training and Enterprise Councils (TECs).

I will not speak ill of the dead, but she was not my cup of tea and a tough interview.

But I challenge some of those who think her legacy is sparkling. The Argentinian Junta saved her premiership, she was down in the low 20s in the polls. I am sure she was glad that the generals decided (because they were also in the shits) to attack the Falklands/Malvinas.

The best way to get a country behind you, is to go to war, as the Argie generals did and Thatcher obliged.

Interesting to see that the conservative posters on the Taco Stand think she was wonderful. I lived under her rule, I researched her, and I interviewed her.


EDIT

As a side note regarding the Falklands/Malvinas conflict. I had fellow colleagues, English, tell me that the US did not help Britain. BS.

We gave them the loan of ships and logistics. Even though Reagan and Thatcher were close (Hmmm, I wonder how close, did Nancy and Denis know, hah hah, okay, now I am being mean) he wasn't so sure how much help and support to give as to not to upset the OAS (Organization of American States) who were supporting the Argie argument, but Casper Weinberger convinced Ronnie Raygun to help our 'cousins'.

I tried telling my British colleagues, why did Weinberger receive an honorary British knighthood from Queen Elizabeth II.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Apr 13, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
Okay, one more comment. Leaders should be strong, but being dogmatic and obstinate as Maggie was... good democratic leadership should have room for compromise. There is more than one at the party.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 13, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Ska Music intermission for Jaybro !

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 13, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Patrick, aside from intel I would be most interested to see your evidence
that we materially supported the cousins down south. They did not lack for
naval resources. Their weakness was long-range air power notably highlighted
by the Monty Pythonesque mission to take out the Port Stanley airfield prior
to the invasion. It was about 10 minutes' fuel short of a tragic cockup.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 13, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Surprised this clip hasn't been posted - makes Morrisey's comments seem tame by comparison.

The discussion following her comments at 06:30 is worth watching as well.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:04am PT

At Thatcher's Funeral, Bury TINA, Too

by Laura Flanders
Published on Saturday, April 13, 2013 by The Nation
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/04/13-1

Margaret Thatcher’s fancy funeral will be held this coming Wednesday. Along with the deceased prime minister, can we bury TINA, too?Margaret Thatcher at a Conservative Party Conference on October 13, 1989. (Reuters/Stringer)

For thirty years we’ve lived with TINA: “There is No Alternative.” Thatcher deployed her most famous slogan to mean that certain debates were over, especially debates over capitalism. Globalized capitalism, so called free-markets and free trade were the best ways to build wealth, distribute services and grow a society’s economy. Deregulation’s good, if not God.

This week, as the canonization of Margaret Thatcher has played out, it’s clear that while Maggie may be gone, TINA lives.

Both the other guests and pretty much all the callers on a public radio show I was part of embraced TINA, arguing in effect that economic change comes with pain and change was necessary. From each came some version of “Thatcher turned the UK economy around.”

Left activist and author Tariq Ali said on Democracy Now! “The fact that no one has come up with an alternative to the Wall Street crash of 2008 does indicate that there’s some truth to her most famous statement.”

Is that what we really believe?

Looking at the data from the British Office of National Statistics compiled by The Guardian, here’s what I see: in the Thatcher years, unemployment shot up, manufacturing spiraled down and poverty grew. Scratch that—poverty almost doubled, from 13.4 percent to 22.2 percent. Inequality rose.

No alternative? Even Thatcher’s quip “the lady’s not for turning” should remind us there were other routes we could have traveled. Thatcher wasn’t just stubborn, she was specific. She dragged the nation down a defiantly neo-liberal path.

One of her first moves on coming into office was to liberalize capital markets—think NAFTA a decade earlier. Governed by the belief that free capital provided the answer to the economic difficulties experienced in the 1970s, Thatcher, like Reagan, tore down tariffs. Money roamed free and went where it was wont to go—offshore, where profits were bigger because wages were lower—and to tax havens, where big money could evade the taxes it would otherwise (like the rest of us) have to pay.

In a damning new documentary from Dutch national TV, former McKinsey-researcher-turned-journalist James S. Henry estimates that some 21 to 32 trillion dollars are parked in no-tax tax havens today—only a third of it from the developing world. British accountant and author Richard Murphy credits Thatcher with starting the trend.

TINA would call the practice delicately “tax minimization” or “neutralization.” Murphy calls it breaking the law. It’s not just “the way it is,” it’s the way liberalizing capital markets made it. Public coffers from London to the Potomac are trillions of dollars poorer as a result.

Globalize capital, “neutralize” taxation on the biggest money and where’s a government to go for cash? To little-guy-consumers via the sales tax. While much has been made of the changes Thatcher made to income tax—lowering the rates on the rich and raising rates below—the most effective way her government shifted tax burdens from top to bottom was by nearly doubling the value added or sales tax (from 8 to 15 percent). While big businesses could park money abroad in tax havens, everyday consumers were taxed at the checkout, every time we bought bread or lettuce or socks.

Was there really no alternative? Some squealed against the onslaught, but it was hard to hear what they had to say, because with the turn in the economy came a shift in the democracy and the media. In TINA’s world, dissenters were what Thatcher called the mineworkers: “the enemy within.” Unions may have needed reform; but working people needed a voice. Under Thatcher they lost the loudest one they had.

Union membership by Britons in the Thatcher years shrank from one in four to one in eight. Part of the decline was a consequence of all that competition with low-wage workers in non-union countries and foreign bosses living too far away to shame. Part of it was due to the brutal “brass knuckle” tactics of security forces in response to strikes. Union mineworkers were bashed on the head by mounted police on picket lines; their wives and children were stopped at police checkpoints when they tried to take their message South; their communities vilified in the news; their supporters were red-baited in debates. In TINA times, who was left to even speak about an alternative?

Union towns and poor and immigrant neighborhoods saw unprecedented levels of police. Financiers saw less. In the city of London, the “Big Bang” delivered “deregulation.” Clamping down on critics, Thatcher freed up finance. Again, it was a choice. A sort of Glass Steagall years ahead of Clinton's, the Thatcher administration’s decision to put growth first, regardless of the cost to people or the planet, meant doing away with boring, cautious banking, removing regulation, permitting integration, encouraging financialization and demonizing scrutiny by “red tape” bureaucrats. London, like Wall Street, loved all that and shared the love with politicians. Influence scandals, corruption and the crash economy grew. And where the money went, so went the media and the press.

Twenty years on, Thatcher’s celebrated as the one who turned around the UK economy. But turned it where? To a less united place, for sure. As BBC economics editor Stephanie Flanders (my sister) put it in a report shortly before Thatcher’s demise:


Going to London these days, sometimes feels like going to a different planet… The ten richest boroughs of London are now worth in real estate terms the same as Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales added together... A third of the population was born in another country.

Belgravia is exclusive and also mostly devoid of living and breathing people. The streets have become prestigious property parks for (non-tax-paying) foreign wealth.

Was there really no alternative? To name but one, Thatcher inherited a North Sea Oil boom that turned the UK into a net exporter of oil, generating trillions of dollars of revenue, more oil than Iraq, Kuwait and Nigeria, and more gas than Saudi Arabia by the end of the 1990s.

Norway used their oil profits to plan for the future and an aging population by building up a soveriegn wealth fund. Venezuela, under Hugo Chavez, used theirs to help the poor.

Britain, let’s just say, did neither of those things; the lion’s share went to pay unemployment benefits. Now, with no national investment bank and no plan, the oil has almost gone. The country’s importing once more.

Could there have been an alternative? What do you think? C'mon. At Thatcher’s funeral, let’s bury TINA, too.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:21am PT
I'm sorry, but there is too many must reads that need to be posted
This one is just portion of the article


Why Would Anyone Celebrate the Death of Margaret Thatcher? Ask a Chilean

by Dave Zirin
Published on Tuesday, April 9, 2013 by The Nation
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/04/09-7


Never have I witnessed a gap between the mainstream media and the public, quite like the last 24 hours since the death of Margaret Thatcher. While both the press and President Obama were uttering tearful remembrances, thousands took to the streets of the UK and beyond to celebrate. Immediately this drew strong condemnation of what were called "death parties", described as “tasteless”, “horrible”, and “beneath all human decency.” Yet if the same media praising Thatcher and appalled by the popular response would bother to ask one of the people celebrating, they might get a story that doesn't fit into their narrative, which is probably why they aren't asking at all.

Thousands have taken to the streets to celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher.I received a note this morning from the friend of a friend. She lives in the UK, although her family didn't arrive there by choice. They had to flee Chile, like thousands of others, when it was under the thumb of General Augusto Pinochet. If you don't know the details about Pinochet's blood-soaked two-decade reign, you should read about them but take care not to eat beforehand. He was a merciless overseer of torture, rapes, and thousands of political executions. He had the hands and wrists of the country's greatest folk singer Victor Jara broken in front of a crowd of prisoners before killing him. He had democratically elected Socialist President Salvador Allende shot dead at his desk. His specialty was torturing people in front of their families.

As Naomi Klein has written so expertly, he then used this period of shock and slaughter to install a nationwide laboratory for neoliberal economics. If Pinochet's friend Milton Friedman had a theory about cutting food subsidies, privatizing social security, slashing wages, or outlawing unions, Pinochet would apply it. The results of these experiments became political ammunition for neoliberal economists throughout the world. Seeing Chile-applied economic theory in textbooks always boggles my mind. It would be like if the American Medical Association published a textbook on the results of Dr. Josef Mengele's work in the concentration camps, without any moral judgment about how he accrued his patients.

Pinochet was the General in charge of this human rights catastrophe. He also was someone who Margaret Thatcher called a friend. She stood by the General even when he was exile, attempting to escape justice for his crimes. As she said to Pinochet, "[Thank you] for bringing democracy to Chile."

Therefore, if I want to know why someone would celebrate the death of Baroness Thatcher, I think asking a Chilean in exile would be a great place to start. My friend of a friend took to the streets of the UK when she heard that the Iron Lady had left her mortal coil. Here is why:

"I'm telling [my daughter] all about the Thatcher legacy through her mother's experience, not the media's; especially how the Thatcher government directly supported Pinochet's murderous regime, financially, via military support, even military training (which we know now, took place in Dundee University). Thousands of my people (and members of my family) were tortured and murdered under Pinochet's regime- the fascist beast who was one of Thatcher's closest allies and friend. So all you apologists/those offended [by my celebration] -you can take your moral high ground & shove it. YOU are the ones who don't understand. Those of us celebrating are the ones who suffered deeply under her dictatorship and WE are the ones who cared. We are the ones who protested. We are the humanitarians who bothered to lift a finger to help all those who suffered under her regime. I am lifting a glass of champagne to mourn, to remember and to honour all the victims of her brutal regime, here AND abroad. And to all those heroes who gave a sh#t enough to try to do something about it."
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Hey Jim B.
I don't really understand your question to me
maybe you can reword it.
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
In agreement with Dr F. here. Full blooming cactus for him. Thatcher could have been more Bill Clinton-George Mitchell about the nineteen hunger strikers in '81. Complete fail on her part.

Famished after a bus ride from Dublin to Belfast, I finally located Sands' grave in the rain. I commenced eating fish and chips out of a white paper bag. Later in the day, I realized how disrespectful this was considering I was standing atop hunger striker graves.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298759
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298760
Plan B

Ice climber
Agua Dulce,CA
Apr 14, 2013 - 01:59pm PT

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50144775n
Anti-Thatcher song is a chart-topper in UK
April 13, 2013 9:29 AM
Mourners prepare for Wednesday's funeral of former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, but anti-Thatcher protesters are stealing the limelight, as they propel "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead!" to the top of the UK music charts. Charlie D'Agata reports.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 14, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Craig,

Perhaps I jumped the gun in thinking what you posted after the video of Thatcher condemning the EU, was in support of such multinational arrangements. That's why I asked the question. I am interested in what you think of these supranational treaties. (NAFTA, etc)

The crowning achievement of European collectivist thinking is the Economic Union. This was supposed to have led to streamlined economic activity concerning tariffs and elimination of bureaucratic redundancy for economic reasons only

One of it's real results has been nation states losing political autonomy under the threat of being sanctioned or kicked out of the EU for not agreeing to decisions made that have an adverse effect at home.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 14, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
I am interested in what you think of these supranational treaties. (NAFTA, etc)
I think the Neo-liberal policies suck, and should now be reversed, here and in Europe/England.


Pyro
you are correct, I am learning my History now,
I wasn't aware of what was going on then, I wasn't into politics until the late 90s.

It's been an awakening experience to see what was going on world-wide with the failed conservative movement of the 80s, which was based on a fantasy like ideology of BS, and the comparison of the conservative movement now, which is striking similar but very different is interesting.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 14, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
Thatcherism was a national catastrophe, and we remain trapped by its consequences. As her former Chancellor Geoffrey Howe put it: “Her real triumph was to have transformed not just one party but two, so that when Labour did eventually return, the great bulk of Thatcherism was accepted as irreversible.”

We are in the midst of the third great economic collapse since the Second World War: all three have taken place since Thatcherism launched its great crusade. This current crisis has roots in the Thatcherite free market experiment, which wiped out much of the country’s industrial base in favour of a deregulated financial sector.

A poisoned “debate” about social security rages in Cameron’s Britain. It focuses on the idea that there are large numbers of people stuck on benefits. It is certainly true that there were more people languishing in long-term unemployment last year than there were in all forms of unemployment 40 years ago. In large part, this is a consequence of Thatcherism’s emptying communities of millions of secure, skilled industrial jobs. Large swathes of Britain – mining villages, steel towns and so on – were devastated, and never really recovered. Even when Britain was supposedly booming, the old industrial heartlands had high levels of what is rather clinically described as “economic inactivity”.

Five million people now languish on social housing waiting lists, while billions of pounds of housing benefit line the pockets of private landlords charging rip-off rents. The scarcity of housing turns communities against each other, as immigrants or anyone deemed less deserving are scapegoated. But the guilt really lies with the Thatcherite policy of right-to-buy and failure to replace the stock that was sold off.

Champions of Thatcherism hail the crippling of the trade unions, which were battered by anti-union laws, mass unemployment, and crushing defeats of strikes, not least after the rout of the iconic miners. This has not only left workers at the mercy of their bosses, but has made them poorer, too. Four years before the crisis began, the income of the bottom half was stagnating, while for the bottom third it actually began to decline – even as corporations were posting record profits. With no unions to stand their corner, workers’ living standards have long been squeezed – driving large numbers to cheap credit.

We could go on. Britain was one of the most equal Western European countries before the Thatcherite project began, and is now one of the most unequal. Thatcherism is not just alive and well: it courses through the veins of British political life. The current government goes where Thatcherism did not dare in its privatisation of the NHS and sledgehammering of the welfare state.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/04/12-7
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
Dr f thanks for a response. I have read somewhere that lots of heroin is to contribute.
sullly

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Musical interlude.

Oliver's army is here to staa-aa-aay
Oliver's army are on their waa-aa-aay

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:04am PT
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Francois Mitterand described Thatcher as having "the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe".
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 15, 2013 - 10:57am PT
She was doing heroin too??
Wow, she was really f-ed up.

I think that explains Reagan, he was probably smoking the stuff too, she got em hooked after a night of mentoring
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 21, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
Mimi

climber
Apr 21, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
You really choose to quote a Vichy traiter, Peter?

Her polarizing historical status speaks volumes. Reduces the gray and brings everything into stark contrast.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Apr 30, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Are those clouds in TGT's picture?^^^^^



















Or . . .


































Is it the smoke from the flames of hell?
crunch

Social climber
CO
Apr 30, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
Are those clouds in TGT's picture?^^^^^

Or . . .

Is it the smoke from the flames of hell?

Credit: crunch
deschamps

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Apr 30, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
It's been an awakening experience to see what was going on world-wide with the failed conservative movement of the 80s

Failed? Economic liberalisation has led to 300-400 million people being pulled out of poverty in China over the past decade. Sub-Saharan Africa is rising quickly. Developing countries all over the world are enjoying the benefits of open and free economic systems.

First, the movement of the 80s is still the driving economic paradigm of today. Secondly, it has been shown to be successful. I am not sure how that is seen as failure.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 30, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
Never mind...!
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