Goodbye to one of the greatest postwar leaders in the free world. She inherited an economy in greater malaise than that of the USA during the last five years, and turned it completely around. RIP.
She wasn't loved by all....an MP, on hearing the news, said, "tramp the dirt down." I didn't like her politics but you had to admire her toughness and fortitude.
why f hates her so much...she was right long before the left's mistakes became apparent to everyone else...her predictions for the eu:
"Germany would chafe at the inevitable need for greater inflation, and that the poorer countries would inevitably be uncompetitive and need bailouts that would not easily be forthcoming"
I'll never forget the scene of the British navy steaming ever closer, day by day, to reclaim the Falklands. The actual war lasted all of a day. There might have been a segment of the British populace that loathed the Iron Lady's domestic policies but i would hazard to guess her unflinching resolve in the Falklands matter rekindled national pride in a good number of the discontents. R.I.P. Dear Iron Lady
Dr F, just curious, let's say you were dying in burning car and only a Conservative could save you, would you let him/her or would you rather perish. Just wondering man, your hatred for anything not Liberal/Socialist is disturbing. Unless of course this is just your internet persona?
I Don't wish any ill will on you of course Dr, this is just a question.
The recent plebiscite held in Port Stanley indicates that all but one
Falklander is thankful for Maggie's resolve and wishes wholeheartedly for
'confusion to Cristina'.
Shouldn't have expected anything less from this crew. Hope you don't have to eat your words some day Moosedrool. By the way, what's with all the objectifying of woman, (it's fine if Sara P. saves you as long as her big tits are in your face). I thought it was the womanizing Conservatives that did that type of thing, or, that's right, it's ok for you guys to do it, forgot about that one. Well, have fun pissing on someones grave. you people showed more respect for Saddam after he died.
I ask why it appears DR F hates Conservatives so much and it means I'm butt hurt? Give me a break RJ. Is this how you shut people up you don't agree with, you play the "stop being a wuss, cry baby card". Was just wondering that's all. Could really care less what some person who I have no idea who they are and are just punching keys on a keyboard thinks. I've learned to not take this crap to seriously, especially with all the "internet persona" excuses people love to use. Hammer away RJ, rip her up, that's fine with me, I think it's lame, but I didn't personally know her.
I know Moosedrool, I was just jabbing you back. I would never wish any bad sh#t on anyone here, even it it does appear like they dislike me a lot, As I said before ,you can't take this stuff to seriously.
Bobby Sands can rot in hell along with all the other Proddy and Republican
terrorists who got what they deserve. They are all the same. I was there
during The Troubles and it was a bloody horrorshow which only a few twisted
minds try to gloss over with revolting revisionist hagiographies.
The Irish didn't ask to have a chunk of their homeland taken over by the Brits. Bobby Sands had the courage of his convictions and died in prison after a 66 day hunger strike.....wrote some pretty good poetry too.
Yeah, well the Birdman of Alcatraz liked birds but that doesn't mean he wasn't
a murderer either. There's a good chance y'all wouldn't have to put up with
me if the English hadn't caused my great-great-grandfather to leave the old
sod so I'm not giving them any kudos except for the fact that it would
have been a lot worse if they hadn't been in Ulster. They prevented a lot
of atrocities on both sides and, to their credit, seemed to piss off both
sides almost equally. In the end it took a bunch of 'mere housewives' to bring
meaningful peace. That was one Nobel Peace Prize the merits of which will
never be debated. (except maybe on SuperTopo)
She is the longest-serving UK prime minister of the 20th century, though.
As with Reagan, Thatcher had a somewhat undeserved record for economic management. Both governed during times of declining oil prices, and came to power when their countries' respective economies could hardly but improve, but Thatcher also benefited from continuously increasing royalties from North Sea oil and gas. She also faced a hapless Labour opposition, and had the good fortune to stumble into the Falklands war, the last gasp of UK imperialism.
So Reilly,
When you 'were there during the troubles', what did you think of the 'bloody horrorshow' that was the apartheid imposed on the catholic majority by the British establishment? That which Bobby Sands and the others so bravely gave their lives to end. Do you wish Nelson Mandela would 'rot in hell'?
those who admire the deceased public figure (and their politics) aren't silent at all. They are aggressively exploiting the emotions generated by the person's death to create hagiography.
Demanding that no criticisms be voiced to counter that hagiography is to enable false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts, distortions that become quickly ossified and then endure by virtue of no opposition and the powerful emotions created by death. When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms.
Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."
To demand that all of that be ignored in the face of one-sided requiems to her nobility and greatness is a bit bullying and tyrannical, not to mention warped. As David Wearing put it this morning in satirizing these speak-no-ill-of-the-deceased moralists: "People praising Thatcher's legacy should show some respect for her victims. Tasteless."
When Maggie became PM unemployment in GB exceeded even Obama levels at 13.4%
When she left office it was a bit over 5%
I'd be interested in the source of that data because it is wrong.
Here is UK government data:
Note the more than doubling of unemployment from when she came into power in 1979 to 1984. It still had not returned to 1970s levels when she left office in 1990.
This mass unemployment was directly responsible for the flowering of Brit. climbing talent in the early 1980s. When there is 30% youth unemployment (and far higher in the North of England) throwing your energies into climbing seems a lot more productive than looking for work. Read Andy Cave’s book 'Learning to Breath' for some insight into this. Some of us even washed up on your side of the pond (you can come home now crusher!).
I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar is happening in Spain right now (current epicentre of world rock-climbing, youth unemployment now around 50%).
"What exactly were they celebrating? Thatcher hadn’t been in power in over 22 years. An entire generation has gone by since Thatcher left office, and the Tories have held power only briefly since. If these people are so miserable and put her in the center of that misery, perhaps they should ask why their lot in life hasn’t improved since she left office.
Normally, this kind of celebration takes place when brutal dictators die while still clinging to power, not when elected leaders pass away 22 years after they honored the will of the electorate. That’s a key point, too — Thatcher didn’t seize power and rig elections to keep it, like the mullahs of Iran or (arguably) Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. The voters of the UK made her Prime Minister, and kept her in place as she rolled out the policies that returned the British to economic, military, and diplomatic strength. If these ghouls want to protest, they should probably protest their own people instead of a long-retired popular leader whose place in history won’t be threatened..."
Comments from all over the globe show how polarizing a figure she was. She may get credit for turning the UK economy around but shouldn't a lot of that go to the discovery of North Sea oil? That was one thing that really saved the UK.
Her "victims?" What about the victims of those she fought? The British coal mines were nothing more than a welfare scheme for a well-connected constituency of Labour, as were so many other government enterprises of the time. Those working in areas that were pulling their weight were being dragged down by the dead weight of those sectors kept afloat in spite of their contributions to the economy. The British economy was heading toward disaster and international irrelevance, because those contributing were producing less than the subsidized were receiving.
Thatcher broke that bondage to the second coming of mercantilism, and that policy shift transformed the British economy's trajectory for the good of the country. Those working in industries that were wards of the state will always hate her, because she forced them to adapt to economic realities, rather than to live off the earnings of others. That will be the case with every leader who ends favored treatment based on non-economic criteria.
National Leftist Radio really outdid itself today on Morning Edition. Its only comment on Thatcher's death was to quote a miner bitter about her insistence that coal mines operate at a profit. He said, in effect "That made it personal," as if the mines' subsidies from profitable industries wasn't personal to the payers.
Meanwhile, we get to watch how the dangers about which she warned, all of which can be summarized as running out of other peoples' money, come home to roost on so many of the western welfare states.
My folks taught me long ago to not speak ill of the dead.
From the same article
This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power.
Tellingly, few people have trouble understanding the need for balanced commentary when the political leaders disliked by the west pass away. Here, for instance, was what the Guardian reported upon the death last month of Hugo Chavez:
To the millions who detested him as a thug and charlatan, it will be occasion to bid, vocally or discreetly, good riddance."
Ron, just an article i quoted. No disrespect is intended.
The last point is valid though, the article continues, and says;
Nobody, at least that I know of, objected to that observation on the ground that it was disrespectful to the ability of the Chavez family to mourn in peace. Any such objections would have been invalid. It was perfectly justified to note that, particularly as the Guardian also explained that "to the millions who revered him – a third of the country, according to some polls – a messiah has fallen, and their grief will be visceral." Chavez was indeed a divisive and controversial figure, and it would have been reckless to conceal that fact out of some misplaced deference to the grief of his family and supporters. He was a political and historical figure and the need to accurately portray his legacy and prevent misleading hagiography easily outweighed precepts of death etiquette that prevail when a private person dies.
Exactly the same is true of Thatcher. There's something distinctively creepy - in a Roman sort of way - about this mandated ritual that our political leaders must be heralded and consecrated as saints upon death. This is accomplished by this baseless moral precept that it is gauche or worse to balance the gushing praise for them upon death with valid criticisms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with loathing Margaret Thatcher or any other person with political influence and power based upon perceived bad acts, and that doesn't change simply because they die. If anything, it becomes more compelling to commemorate those bad acts upon death as the only antidote against a society erecting a false and jingoistically self-serving history.
Here's another statement The Smiths' singer Morrissey made about the passing of Margaret Thatcher today, even more cutting than the one he made yesterday:
The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher’s death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measured you speak, the comment must be reported as an “outburst” or an ”explosive attack” if your view is not pro-establishment.
If you reference “the Malvinas”, it will be switched to “the Falklands”, and your “Thatcher” will be softened to a “Maggie.” This is generally how things are structured in a non-democratic society. Thatcher’s name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics.
Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a sh#t about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed, whereas we must all endure the obligatory praise for Thatcher from David Cameron without any suggestion from the BBC that his praise just might be an outburst of pro-Thatcher extremism from someone whose praise might possibly protect his own current interests.
The fact that Thatcher ignited the British public into street-riots, violent demonstrations and a social disorder previously unseen in British history is completely ignored by David Cameron in 2013. In truth, of course, no British politician has ever been more despised by the British people than Margaret Thatcher.
Thatcher’s funeral on Wednesday will be heavily policed for fear that the British tax-payer will want to finally express their view of Thatcher. They are certain to be tear-gassed out of sight by the police.
United Kingdom? Syria? China? What’s the difference?”
I interviewed her in 1989 when I was editor of Training Personnel magazine (Wembley/Stonebridge Park) after she had instigated the launch of the Training and Enterprise Councils (TECs).
I will not speak ill of the dead, but she was not my cup of tea and a tough interview.
But I challenge some of those who think her legacy is sparkling. The Argentinian Junta saved her premiership, she was down in the low 20s in the polls. I am sure she was glad that the generals decided (because they were also in the shits) to attack the Falklands/Malvinas.
The best way to get a country behind you, is to go to war, as the Argie generals did and Thatcher obliged.
Interesting to see that the conservative posters on the Taco Stand think she was wonderful. I lived under her rule, I researched her, and I interviewed her.
EDIT
As a side note regarding the Falklands/Malvinas conflict. I had fellow colleagues, English, tell me that the US did not help Britain. BS.
We gave them the loan of ships and logistics. Even though Reagan and Thatcher were close (Hmmm, I wonder how close, did Nancy and Denis know, hah hah, okay, now I am being mean) he wasn't so sure how much help and support to give as to not to upset the OAS (Organization of American States) who were supporting the Argie argument, but Casper Weinberger convinced Ronnie Raygun to help our 'cousins'.
I tried telling my British colleagues, why did Weinberger receive an honorary British knighthood from Queen Elizabeth II.
Okay, one more comment. Leaders should be strong, but being dogmatic and obstinate as Maggie was... good democratic leadership should have room for compromise. There is more than one at the party.
Patrick, aside from intel I would be most interested to see your evidence
that we materially supported the cousins down south. They did not lack for
naval resources. Their weakness was long-range air power notably highlighted
by the Monty Pythonesque mission to take out the Port Stanley airfield prior
to the invasion. It was about 10 minutes' fuel short of a tragic cockup.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50144775n
Anti-Thatcher song is a chart-topper in UK
April 13, 2013 9:29 AM
Mourners prepare for Wednesday's funeral of former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, but anti-Thatcher protesters are stealing the limelight, as they propel "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead!" to the top of the UK music charts. Charlie D'Agata reports.
It's been an awakening experience to see what was going on world-wide with the failed conservative movement of the 80s
Failed? Economic liberalisation has led to 300-400 million people being pulled out of poverty in China over the past decade. Sub-Saharan Africa is rising quickly. Developing countries all over the world are enjoying the benefits of open and free economic systems.
First, the movement of the 80s is still the driving economic paradigm of today. Secondly, it has been shown to be successful. I am not sure how that is seen as failure.
Let us know!