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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 7, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
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I couldn't resist the Siren's Call anymore. I broke down and bought my glass and today was the maiden voyage into Fermentation at the home scale level (Biotechnology scale is my specialty :) )
The journey started with the grunt work: sanitization: Lots of work that shed some light to dealing with multiple 5+ gallon containers in a standard house kitchen:
The next step was with my beautiful assistant winemaker in the backyard to pick the fruit:
Next up zesting, no pith!!! Actually took a bit more time and effort than expected.
The final product of a lot of effort!
Next up juicing 30 oranges! Was faster than expected.
Time to cook! It's actually a lot harder to boil about 4 gallons of water than you think unless you are set up for it! I had 4 pots going. If you are wondering why bananas? It is for extra started yeast nutrients.
Once you get 4 gallons of water / zest / 10 lbs of sugar boiled up, you got to cool it down yo! Into the all available sinks!
Once cooled, combined into a single 6 gallon glass carboy:
Next up some additives:
After about 6 hours on Pectic Enzyme. Next up will be yeast! and 14 days of fermentation!
I am anxious to see how it turns out!
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Jesus, my computer auto corrects the pics orientation but ST does not. Grrr....
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Are you sure it hasn't already started fermenting - looks like it knocked yer sh#t sideways and you've only just started.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
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Yeah, I was wondering about that, but I think the pectic enzyme is what causes the semi-clarification / sedimentation. That is actually its job. It has another 6 hours sitting, then I'll add the yeast. No bubbling as of yet so I think we are good. I'll stir and add yeast and if I don't see bubbles I will be concerned!
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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Very cool roughster. What exactly is that you're making? I like experimentation. If I did my math right you're starting off at about 32%-33% brix (percent sugar) so whatever it is it's going to have a very high alcohol content. It's been a long time since I've been around that stuff but I think Montrachet has a hard time with sugar concentrations above 24%. I can't remember if it's the osmotic pressure from the high sugar or if the alcohol level during fermentation gets too high. You may wind up with a stuck fermentation. Best to have something on hand ready to go that can un-stuck it.
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bob
climber
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Nice!
I like the sour ferments. I just got into this kimchi and have a german kraut (green w/caraway) and purple/green ready in no time. Fuzzy yums.
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Nice!
All my friends do beer... but I don't think I've got the knack for it. ..
I do Kraut, Kim Chi and Kombucha.... and fermented pickles of all sorts.
They all seem way less complicated than beer/mead/wine
Need to find something with alcohol to throw into the mix....
So... what will that end up being?
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 01:43am PT
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I just read out the specific gravity at 1.095 which roughly equated to 22.70 Brix which is on the high side but well within the stated range for Montrachet. The volume is closer to 6 gallons due to bananna "juice" and orange juice on top of the water.
This should be interesting! I will take the spg tomorrow and see what if any change occurs. I am doing orange wine for a reason aka I have the fruit in my backyard. After this learning experience I will be on to grape varietals!
This batch should end up being a high alcohol / sweet true orange wine. I tasted it tonight and so far so good!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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No chance of fermenting already if you boiled everything. Good call on the bananas. Raisins work well too, plus have some unfermentables to add some body to the finished product (most fruits ferment to dryness). The DAP will help greatly with the needed nitrogen, and FYI there are other nutrients available that supply not only nitrogen but also the other trace elements the yeast need.
BTW, I trust you left the bentonite in the pic out for now?
Oh, and careful with montrachet yeast... It sometimes likes to throw gobs of hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) that not only will stink up your house but can be difficult to scrub from the finished wine.
Hah! Forgot the two most important things!!
1. Awesome!
And...
2. Yer Gunna Die!
:-)
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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Hey Adatesman :)
Bentonite is still on the counter, I was told to wait till the final rack for the last bit of clarifying by a guy I trust, but the store clerk said to use it after the first rack. What's your thoughts on that?
Also, I am not going to do my reading yet since I started fermentation at 9PM last night, but there isn't any bubbling as of yet this morning that I can see which has me a bit concerned. I don't have any experience on when this should happen. Anyone out there have an educated guess on when I should start seeing heat production and bubbles (CO2 creation) from a time from start?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Good luck! You take the first sip.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:47am PT
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I tasted it last night and it actually tasted pretty good, strongly orange with not quite but close to cloyingly sweet. My wife couldn't resist trying it after I did and she agreed it wasn't bad.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Anyone out there have an educated guess on when I should start seeing heat production and bubbles (CO2 creation) from a time from start?
If you just sprinkled the dry yeast onto the liquid, then it can take a couple of days. Once it gets going though, you may find yourself wishing you'd done the fermentation in something with more headroom than that carboy.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:58am PT
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Ghost, yeah I thought about using a blow-off instead of an airlock, so I will watch the level and if it creeps switch over to a blow-off. I also currently have it wrapped in towels in our master bath tub so if it does go ballistic, at least the mess will hopefully be mostly confined to an easily cleanable tub :)
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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OK. If you know how to measure specific gravity and all of that stuff then you have it under control. I thought you were using a "recipe" and didn't know how to measure anything. I did my calculations based on the 10# of cane sugar added to the 4 gallons mentioned above and then also guesstimated the additional sugar from the 30 oranges.
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bob
climber
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Really good book on the subject of beers and fermentation.
"Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation." by Stephen Harrod Buhner
Opened my mind up quite a bit. He has many fine publications.
Bob J.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Yeah I have been looking for a good book and devouring internet sources. I'll take a look at that one.
Here is the current "towel egg" in the bathtub. Right now it is open to air but covered with nylon mesh bag to prevent hopefully any airbone bombs from getting in. I plan on leaving it like this for 3-4 days, then putting on the air lock.
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Hey Roughster - have you considered making a wort chiller to cool your product? I made one from Home Depot out of copper coil for about $30. i can cool my wort down in about 5-10 minutes and reduce the chance of getting undesirables into the mix.
Let us know how it turns out.
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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Really no need to stir anything. Usually only red wines have any kind of manual stirring or punch down of the cap and usually that's just to keep the cap (solid material pushed to the top by rising CO2 bubbles) from drying out. Not punching down the cap creates a perfect environment for acetic bacteria to form (ethyle acetate - acetone).
Generall whites are chilled right after pressing and what little solid material in them is allowed to settle out and then the juice is racked off that. The more clear juice is what's fermented. Of course there are exceptions for certain types of wine. It looks like you are fermenting it with a lot of grape and babana pulp present so make sure that the solid materials don't get all pushed to the top by CO2 and start to dry out or it will smell like acetone. You will have to punch it down several times per day if that happens.
No problem putting an airlock on for fermentation. Whites usually have very little air contact during the process. Reds benefit for a lot of air contact at different steps, but it's a balancing act and an art to know how much.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Roughster- been so long since I've done wine I'm going to punt on when to use the bentonite. That said I kinda recall doing 3 stage fermentation, with the clarifying agent (bentonite in your case, I prefer inisglass) being used between the 2nd and 3rd fermenter. Don't quote me on that though, as it's been years. (cheap yet decent South American wine coming to the market put an end to my winemaking, as it ended up costing the same and took no effort on my part)
Also with only 1 packet of yeast it might take a day or two to get going. Don't worry about it; there's no point in steering now so just let it do its thing. If you're /really/ worried and there's a brew shop local, dropping another packet or three of yeast into it might move it along faster. No real harm in doing that by the way, and frankly with dry yeast I usually use 2 or 3 packets per 5 gallons anyway.
Keep us updated!
:)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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I brewed a lot from 1992-1999... the only way to get good beer in Utah, especially for the first 3 years when I was under age. Once I realized I can't do gluten I gave up. I did some experiments with wine but I'm no expert. This is from memory and probably of little use...
Didn't dissolve yeast in 100-105 degree water water before adding.
Should still kick in, it will just be delayed. But you kind of want a quick start to purge any air with the CO2 the yeast produces. Plus (I think) highly active yeast early on prevents the unwanted critters from fermenting and giving you off flavors.
Immediately airlocked after pitching yeast. Removed about 2 hours later.
Removing may introduce contamination = off flavors.
Having a hard time keeping the wort warm enough. Of course we get a cold snap over the last few days!
Maybe put it in a bath tub full of warm water?
Started with too much liquid / too big of batch. As previously mentioned, I feel I am a little close too the top of my 6 gallon carboy.
Make sure you have it in a place where it is okay for it to blow its top!
Is rocking the bottle to create a swirl daily a good or bad idea?
Bad. You want the air (oxygen) away from the liquid ASAP. With delicate brews I used to purge my carboy with CO2 from my tank immediately after pitching.
Should I get a paddle and gently stir instead?
I wouldn't. If you do, just make sure it is VERY clean.
This book was just recommended to us the other day. Waiting for it to arrive.
http://www.wildfermentation.com/wild-fermentation/
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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Thanks for the info guys. I have read conflicting ideas related to airlocking and mixing, which is why I was concerned with them. One site said only airlock after primary fermentation is done, the other said airlock immediately. I am going to stick with the no airlock till I see bubbling then air lock it. Not sure if that will let in the baddies, but eh this is my first time and it is all from fruit in my back yard so I am really only out the cost of 10 lbs of sugar and the yeast packet :)
So far I like the at home science piece of this whole thing. Looking forward to making my second batch already and my first hasn't even started fermenting yet, LOL!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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One site said only airlock after primary fermentation is done, the other said airlock immediately.
Only reason NOT to lock it is to prevent blowing the top and making a mess when your yeast kicks into primary fermentation. Of course the off flavors from unwanted critters (fungus/yeast) is the reason to lock it.
for super messy batches (unfiltered grains, tons of hops, etc) we did something like this for the primary fermentation. It would burp out tons of fibrous crap... don't do it on your mom's carpet!
As a rule of thumb, we always under filled our carboys to prevent wasteful explosions.
"Better to fill the cup half way than to fill to the brim and risk overflowing." Some Zen guy
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
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Thats a nice setup Wes! My carboy is about the same head space / volume at the top as the ones in your pictures above, so maybe there is hope (room) after all!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Not my set up... but we had something similar.
In the end, as I recall...
4 @ 5 gallon glass carboys
4 @ 5 gallon stainless steel kegs
1 @ 10 lb CO2 canister
1 dedicated fridge
20 @ 1 gallon glass jugs for smaller experiments
etc
(Heard my old brewing partner on the radio (Marketplace) the other day. Strange to lose touch and then recognize his voice on the radio after almost 20 years.)
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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Wooohooo we got bubbles!! Its on now!
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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That Sir Loin of Leisure knows fermenting. He makes this stuff he calls Grog.
It's pretty good, but watch out. It CAN kick you in the head.
Grog Power, man.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:14am PT
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My readings tonight were spg 1.080 / 1.93 Brix. Tasted orangey sweet with hint of carbonation. No tastes other than orange that I could detect. Bubbling is strong, but small rapid bubbles and not violent at all. No real "frothing" to report. All seems well contained in the carboy.
Seems to be on track!
EDIT: Correction that should be 19.3 Brix.
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:19am PT
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What do you mean by 1.93 brix? Brix is the percent of sugar (actually soluable solids) in fruit juice. 1.93 brix would be 1.93% sugar content, or almost fully fermented. Usually it's measured with a refractometer but would also do larger vineyard samples in the lab with a hydrometer.
Once fermentation starts you can't go by any kind of a brix reading or use a refractometer because you have two different substances present, ethyl alcohol which has a SG <1.00 and fruit juice which has a SG >1.00.
During fermentation you have to use only a hydrometer and measure SG. Any sugar present would be known as residual sugar and usually isn't measured unless you're bottling a wine with a certain percentage of residual sugar, which can be technically challenging. The best way to measure RS is with a clini-tab.
Sorry to get all wine-geeky.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 10, 2013 - 09:58am PT
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What do you mean by 1.93 brix?
Probably 19.3
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 10:27am PT
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Sorry about the typo, yes Brix was 19.3. I was just reading the SPG / Brix reading on the hydrometer. Still bubbling away this morning. Making the upstairs smell orangey!
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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Not beer-related, but definitely in the fermentation category:
I'm a master brewer of KOMBUCHA. I wrote a how-to guide awhile back, it covers everything from starting a culture (aka 'SCOBY') to secondary fermentation of the finished product. If anyone wants it, send me a message and it's yours!
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Apr 10, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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Coincidentally, I brewed last night after work -- a 5g batch of a double IPA.
The number one rule of brewing is: have patience. Don't sweat it. Don't bother taking any gravity readings for at least 2 weeks after brewing; all you'll do is risk contamination.
I've had brews that I was sure I screwed up (boiled off too much; heated grains too high) which ended up as tasty, tasty beer.
BTW, you can get all your homebrew questions answered very nicely over at http://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum.php .
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Apr 11, 2013 - 01:24am PT
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Looks like fun, I've made a bunch of beer and a bunch of different fruit wines (rhubarb, blackberry, elderberry, apple, dandelion, sage, carrot, raisin, etc) but never orange.
I'd say if you see signs of fermentation (bubbles) and your SG has dropped, just leave it for a week or so. As mentioned, the air lock is meant to let the excess CO2 out and keep the bugs (big and tiny) from getting in. A blow-off tube is essentially a really large airlock that won't get clogged, but still provides a one-way exit for the CO2 through the bucket of water or whatever the end of the tube is in. You always want something covering the carboy or bucket to prevent the stray fruit flies or whatever, especially before fermentation takes off and provides some extra CO2 pressure.
I've never used bentonite and my wines come out pretty clear, but I haven't tried to compete or anything. My understanding is you put it in at the final racking and let it sit until you are ready to bottle. Patience is key to wine (and beer). After primary fermentation (~1 week) I rack off the lees and let it sit a month, then rack again, sit a month, then rack again till I get around to bottling it (3-5 months from when I started). Then let it sit in the bottle for at least 6 months. You'd be surprised at how much some homemade wines improve after a year or two. That's the fun part about home brewing though, you can taste along the way at each step.
With that starting SG you're going to finish pretty sweet, but I bet it'll be tasty with the oranges and bannanas!
What's next? You have to have something new going while you wait on this one, eventually you get a pipeline and always have something almost ready!
Just bottled:
Belgian Brown Ale
Cascadian Dark Ale
Rhubarb Wine
Waiting to be bottled:
Elderberry-Grape Wine
Long term aging in secondary:
Flanders Red Sour Ale
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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OMB: Yeah I wanted a sweet wine and given the taste last night it, will be one. Reading was SPG 1.060. Still very active fermentation with the airlock bubbling just a little quicker than 1/second. Lots of churn of the sediments inside the carboy.
I was thinking about maybe doing a batch of beer next go. As usual, I want to jump right into to something over my head and do an all grain batch. Thinking about doing this recipe given summer is almost here:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f70/lemon-lime-hefe-weizen-255659/
The only problem is though, I am not sure exactly what a lot of the instruction exactly mean, lol. If anyone wants to take a stab at converting the recipe to English / Lay-mans terms, that would be killer!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 11, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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If anyone wants to take a stab at converting the recipe to English / Lay-mans terms, that would be killer!
I'll be happy to do that for you, but note that to make six gallons of beer from grain requires equipment on a scale you don't currently have (judging from your comments upthread). You'll need a mash tun capable of handling 11.25 pounds of grain plus at least 5 gallons of water, a ten gallon pot (i.e. big enough to handle 7+ gallons of liquid at a full rolling boil), a heat source capable of generating that boil (no, your kitchen stove isn't really suitable) and a fermenting vessel with enough headspace for the kind of vigorous primary fermentation you're going to see.
Edit: PM me if you want to follow this up
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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PM sent! Thanks for the offer and as I said in the PM, if we can arrange some time, I'll get some of the brew in your hands!
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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Started another batch of fermentation. This time it is Apfelwein:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/
It is bubbling like mad in the bath tub right now. SUPER psyched to try it. Starting specific gravity was 1.060 which was pretty much right on track.
Next up will be Ghost's translation of the Summer Ale. Thank's man!
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
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OK, my first batch was ready for bottling lat night, so A.S.P aka Aaron's Skeeter Pee was born. Crappy label printing but I was too lazy to go buy a new ink cartridge :) It is clear as a bell, fairly sweet, nice lemon / lemonade flavor. Was a hit around the jacuzzi last night and sneaky. ~12% ABV.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Forgot to put in Campden tablets after boiling and let it sit.
Let us know!