Begging on Supertopos


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Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Mar 24, 2013 - 10:16am PT
splitter, just a quick thank you.

My family has never mentioned my sons suicide. Not once. No sorry for your loss cards, nada, zip.
Even though I am staunchly non-religious, I DO have something of a relationship with Christ, and that has probably kept me alive.

It happens all the time, not sure why, but I know I am totally uncomfortable with illness, etc., and have probably done the same, abandon someone in need. Can't really pin point anything, but I'm sure I've let people down who might have needed me.


Trad climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 10:45am PT
Splitter - So sorry to know that people walked away and took from you in your direst time of need.

Thank you for that story - it certainly has a lot of messages and potential for learning lessons. Bets wishes to you today and going forward.

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
Mar 24, 2013 - 11:39am PT
That takes guts to tell your story. Good for you. I hope you ENJOY LIFE.
Photography is a great hobby/passion of mine too.

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 24, 2013 - 11:55am PT
... high ratings for your comments, Splitter.

I suppose many of us skip or quickly scan over longer forum posts. But reflections so personal, plainspoken and guileless are not easy to pass over. Thank you.

Trad climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
I almost didn't circle back to this thread again because I was so pissed after I read the OP the first time around, but for some strange reason I felt like I should...and I'm really glad I did.

Hey Splitter, consider posting again in your own separate thread -- what you have to say speaks to many more people than even I can begin to imagine. I'm sorry to hear that you are so isolated, but I completely understand. For several years, it was just me and the muppet (not knocking the hubby, but he stuck his head in the sand, I think, because it was too hard to deal with, and I'm okay with that). It was with GREAT trepidation that I stuck my toe in the water here, but WOW, what an AWESOME tribe this is when you let its members IN.

What you wrote took brute courage and a serious jump into the unknown. And, hey, you've got at least one more new member of the tribe who would be honored to call you "friend", if nothing else, but I suspect you've struck gold in the human connection department. From my own experiences, I believe with every fiber of my being that it's connection that we all need above everything else (even when it feels "safer" to rely on yourself and external forces). BooDawg will chuckle if he reads this, because he reminds me quite frequently (indirectly, of course) that I am DESERVING of You are, too.

My husband has asked me many times why I wasn't angry with my friends or family for treating me the way they did when I was sick. I was angry plenty at various points in time, usually when it felt like things were completely outside of my control, but I always came back to center believing that they all had their own burdens to bear. I also didn't want the anger or the energy of the anger pinging around inside my body, if that makes any sense. I wanted it out because it didn't belong to me and wasn't mine. Gave it the boot. Not saying that's right or healthy or anything else -- it just was. It was freeing, in a sense.

I'm sort of a lone wolf, too, but wolves live well in packs. I suppose I'm a wolf that sticks with pack members that give me the freedom to leave when I need solitude. And in return I try my best to be there when I'm needed. But, I'm not perfect.

It's an incredible journey that you're on, Splitter, and sharing the stuff most choose to hide is an incredible gift that you've offered of yourself. I suspect that anyone you meet in the future that has read your post will meet you with his or her heart.

Echoing what Ed said several pages back, it just doesn't matter which path you followed to get where you are. Stop "should-ing" all over yourself. ") I was a corporate attorney in international telecom when I first really started going downhill fast. In the end, it didn't matter what my job was, that I had savings and retirement savings, a house, a car, health insurance, short-term and long-term disability insurance, etc. It took almost 10 years, getting fired from a job in international satellite and losing absolutely everything, including all of those benefits you're "supposed" to have as a safety net, before I figured out what was wrong. But you already know that story. I added this to back up YOUR story. There are things you just can't predict.

Chiefly among those things that you just can't predict is how people will respond to you when you open your heart. I hope that yours is now starting to feel full.

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Mar 24, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Very guys (and gals)...

Funny how a thread can this case a very moving way...


Social climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Splitter, I wish your sharing would be posted on another thread that wasn't a first-time troll.

Just saying, it's worthy, and this thread is not.

We followed similar paths with our carpentry, BTW.


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2013 - 08:31pm PT

1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
a: generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need
b: an institution engaged in relief of the poor
c: public provision for the relief of the needy
a: a gift for public benevolent purposes
b: an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift
4: lenient judgment of others

as an intransitive verb:

1: to ask for as a charity

as a transitive verb:

1: to ask for alms

1: archaic : charity
2: something (as money or food) given freely to relieve the poor;

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Mar 24, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
^^^ :D And are beggars really begging, or just asking for help?
John M

Mar 24, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Hey Splitter,

I started to write a thanks for sharing 3 or 4 times, but kept deleting it because some of your story hit too close to home. I have shared bits and pieces of my story here on the forum, but its hard to say much because I haven't yet found out why I have gotten sick. I also lost my home and job and a business that I was just starting. Plus I also lost friends. I do have two staunch friends who stuck by me through the worst of it. Karl Bralich who posts here as Karl Baba is one of those friends. Thanks Karl, you da man.

It can be hard to share stories like that because sometimes you can get negative responses. One person on this forum made fun of me for losing my home. He said I was an idiot for not declaring bankruptcy, but at the time I fully believe that I would be able to turn things around and had no idea the poor health would go on for so long. So I know that it takes courage to express oneself on such a public forum.

I'm very grateful that you found out that it was a med that was causing the problem. What a relief that must have been, though you say it caused quite a bit of damage to you physically. That must really suck.

Thanks again..

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
the basic issue with providing charity by some institution seems to revolve around how much of the contribution given to charity actually gets to the people who need it...

while libertarians argue that the government is inefficient, absorbing a large fraction of the funds to support the activity, and that private institutions are more efficient, private institutions have problems with fraud (which is the reason that government overhead is so high, to manage the funds so that there is no fraud).

but whether or not the organization is public or private, the hesitancy seems to be the idea that the money given is not going to the people the giver intended...

another issue is whether or not the people receiving the charity are deserving, in the eyes of the giver... certainly there are many emotional issues regarding this... but once again, this is independent of whether or not the organization is public or private.

the itinerant life style of climbing leave many climbers "under resourced" for the various problems that may beset them, most often these are medical, but they can also be legal.

This is not a new problem, for instance, crews of ships often encounter misfortune in remote places, a shipping company might not pay and leave a shipmate stranded in a foreign land... or in the past, the shipmate may not return home due to some accident, and leave a family with no one to provide for it.

Various institutions grew up around finding the resources to provide for people who are in need, including both int the public and private sectors.

There was an article in the NYTimes yesterday (Saturday) about the Freelancers Union,
which provides a benefit to workers who are hired on as "contractors" without benefits... first and foremost, they can use the bargaining power of the union to obtain health insurance, the major benefit they lack in the work situations.

This is another way of providing for the needy, though here it is the "working" needy, by organizing together and using the power of that organization in the form of the availability of labor.... it seems that this is just parity with those organizations that would use labor... obviously the two are a complementary pair which should balance each other (though this seems quite out of balance in the US at the moment).

The main point of this rambling post is a notion that has been floated from time to time on the STForum, that is, given that the public sector response to health care is something that is going to take a long time to sort itself out, shouldn't climbers band together to create a "Climbers' Benevolence Society" with the expressed purpose of raising funds to disperse to climbers in need.

There are many climbers who might want to help, and have the means to help, but do not want to directly contribute to an individual who is asking for, or for whom someone else has asked for help.

This is a private charity. The idea would be for it to seek contributions and then oversee the dispersement of those funds to those seeking help. There would be criteria to receive help, and some board to oversee the decisions, and the financing of the charity.

I have no idea what this would cost, I'm not the sort that has that knowledge, but there are many climbers who do...

How would such a thing work, etc... it would be interesting to discuss it here again...

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Mar 24, 2013 - 09:29pm PT

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
the AAC has a different mission statement, and is probably not legally set up to raise money for the purpose of charity...

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 24, 2013 - 10:25pm PT

I think that those of us that can, will.

Sharing is a basic human trait.

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Mar 24, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Yes it is, and that's probably why I'm so on edge. I'm sick of not being able to help! Or buy presents. I haven't been able to buy presents for those I care about in a very long time and THAT SUCKS!

Trad climber
Mar 24, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
I'd be willing to bet that your presence in their lives is far more important than anything money can buy. And I really mean that.

I have been there (and still am there to a certain extent with my private student loan holder threatening to sue me for the entire balance owed).

Here's one of my other favorite quotes, for what it's worth (I've been trying to find it for months):

"Nothing splendid has ever been achieved
except by those who dared to believe
that something inside of them
was superior to circumstance."

 John Barton

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
Mar 25, 2013 - 02:32am PT
LilaBiene - From my own experiences, I believe with every fiber of my being, that it's connection that we need above everything else...
Yes, I believe that is very true also.

And speaking of exactly that, WOW, I didn't expect what I posted to have this much impact, it is really moving. To be honest, I was initially hoping that it had drifted off the front page overnight, since I was having second thoughts about what I posted. But after reading all of your kind responses, and, how many of you have experienced similar things, I must say that I am glad that I did share with you. I have the urge, or desire to respond to each and every one of you. But, more than a few, have revealed things that take me beyond words, or at least, I don't have the proper words to respond with.

But maybe I could somehow share one more thing with you that may help express the way I feel in general. Actually, I typed this same story some 5-6 months ago, hesitated to post it, then lost it. I had been wanting to share it with ST/everyone, then it kind of lost its timeliness, but perhaps now would suffice.

When I was living in Belle Cote, Cape Breton and in kindergarten, one Spring morning while waiting for class to begin in our little one room schoolhouse, a group of us noticed these two young kids, brother and sister (my age 5/6). They were walking up towards the school, hand in hand.

Someone mentioned something I wasn't aware of, that their mother, whom they lived alone with (no father) had passed away the night before. One of the older girls (maybe 8/9) replied, "Poor kids, they don't even know that they don't have to come to school today." and she went and intercepted them with that information, and they turned around and began the long walk home.

I had figured that she did the right thing by sending them home. And I never really thought any differently about it until last summer, when I lost my own mother rather suddenly. And, although we were blessed to have her with us for many years, it didn't seem to make it any easier when she was suddenly gone. In fact, it hit me very hard.

The prior 12 or so hours kept running through my mind, and other segments of our life. Some thoughts were just too hard to bear at the moment, particularly sitting alone in my apartment. I needed someone, so I turned to the only place I new where other people had turned to in similar times, here/SuperTopo.

I didn't say anything about my mom, I was to sick with grief. I just read every thread I could, listened to music and occasionally posted. I must say that I also turned to faith, hope and prayer because I new my younger brother was also particularly hurting since he had taken her in and cared for her since our father had passed away a number of years ago. But I was really hurting also. I didn't sleep for at least 3-4 days! Those were very long days and nights, and I am very thankful for SuperTopo helping me get through them.

Sometime during that time, between moments of deep grief, prayer, and spending much time here, I recalled those two little kids, the brother & sister. And I realized that they hadn't gone to school that day because they had to go, it was because they wanted to go. They needed to be, had chosen to be with someone, rather than be home all alone.

Thanks for being here for me when I needed you most!


Trad climber
The great state of advaita
Mar 25, 2013 - 02:40am PT
Beautiful, hard, painful and powerful thoughts and experiences that Splitter, Lilabiene and others are sharing. Not easy to do, I and others here understand that very well. But ultimately, it can be helpful to reach out. We do need connection and camaraderie; these somehow are core needs beyond shelter and sustenance. In the best of time and the worst of times.

You all are appreciated all the more for having done so. At least in my humble eyes.

Peace and godspeed to you all.

Big Mike

Trad climber
Mar 25, 2013 - 03:07am PT
Wow guys!! Did this thread ever turn for the better!

Hossjulia- i am sorry to hear about your loss. There is really nothing more i could say other than things will get better. Good people get what they deserve in the long run.

Lilabene- thanks for re-iterating that tale. I'm glad you are feeling better and moving forward with your life.

John m- i am sorry to hear that you are sick. You can't pay any mind to the trolls on here. It's just like real life. Some people will always want to bring you down. Thank you for sharing, and know that most on here will be sympathetic if you are willing to share. I wish you the best in your continued struggles. Please feel free to pm me if you want to talk or if i can help in any way.

Splitter- wow dude! Once again you've blown me away. Please know that you will always have a friend up north and pm me any time you wish....

Ed- the nice thing about the taco funds is that the proceeds go directly to the person who needs it. Yes there is more potential for fraud this way, but if you are willing to put some research time in, i'm sure you can tell for yourself wether that person is really in need of such assistance.

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Mar 25, 2013 - 09:02am PT
"Kindness is the language that the deaf can hear, and the blind can see."

Mark Twain

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing,
therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human
being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not
pass this way again."

Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
French-born Quaker Minister
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