rockclimbing.com inactive?

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johnr9q

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 15, 2013 - 07:20am PT
I recently suggested some changes to one of the area descriptions in rockclimbing.com that would have brought the information regarding that area into the 21st century. (this was information that only an administrator could change) I got no response so sent in two more requests but heard nothing. I sent the same information to mountainproject.com and, after a couple sends, finally got a reply and was able to update the area. Do others have the same problem? I have previously posted a bunch of updates on Rockclimbing.com but I think in the future I will only post this info on mountainproject.com
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:24am PT
I think its a waste to update ANY on-line route database. I would put rockclimbing.com at the top of the list of 'wastes-of-time.'

I dug out a 25-year old guidebook yesterday, for a place I'm headed this weekend. My partner commented - 'how many 25-year old data files do you have?'

None.

But its your time, your data and I wish you well.

DMT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:38am PT
I don't know Dingus, I've enjoyed quite a few areas based solely on online topos/descriptions. I guess if you haven't, you'd have the opposite opinion. Not hunting up some obscure guidebook to a random crag I've enjoyed for a half a day on a road trip? Priceless.

I've enjoyed some areas I have the guidebook to more with the addendum of online information, or opinions other than just the person who decided to publish their own misunderstandings.

It seems pretty democratic to me, free information, the exchange of ideas and all that; meanwhile the guidebook author is puttering away on that guide that is eight years late.

And, yes, I have climbed at areas with no guidebook and beta other than location. And, yes, I have bought many a guidebook.

I'd almost say it's a generational thing, but John proves that wrong!

And speaking of John's original query: Rockclimbing.com is dead as dead? I dunno, I have different litter boxes to go to for my mis-information.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:40am PT
I've used a lot of online route info. Thanks to them that submitted genuinely new information. But I'm not talking about consumption here. I'm talking the production of the data.

Let me tell you a story about free milk and a cow...

(why would you give your material to a for-profit internet site that does not recognize your copyright... WHY?)

DMT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:47am PT
I'd say we both profit. They get their ad revenue by acting as a viable source of information, and I get paid in the information I would already pay for. That's why. The nominal fee these guys are getting for ad space? I really don't care. Good for them, they solved the puzzle of making money off of climbing.

I guess you want ownership of ideas. Yes, we "author" routes, but I don't know that we "own" them. They become community property, just like any hiking path on public land. The FA party gets a little more leeway as far as the interpretation of the nature path usually, but that's about it.

If you start the non-profit alternative, let me know about it. I'll post all my information there.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:49am PT
I'm with Jebus....The main reason I come to this site is because of the wealth of info on routes, but especially new routes not in the guides. I wouldn't have gone to the Cookie Sheet recently if it weren't for folks posting up and it's one of the ways I feel I can contribute. I wouldn't be too interested in this site otherwise.
Edit: Bob Jensen's new route post is the best of the year so far in my mind and one of the best posts ever. Every moderate climber and there brother's gonna be on that this summer......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 15, 2013 - 07:56am PT
Fair question Dingus. I have on a few occasions added info or pictures to climbing websites. I wouldn't do it if I ever had any expectation to make money off those donations. In the particular cases of the sites i did this with I felt I had gained much more from them than over time than I had given. I certainly feel that way with ST. I will never write a guidebook, I long ago stopped sending photo's to climbing mags. I don't need proprietary info for guiding or some-such.

I'm not so much focused on the for profit owners who actually I do appreciate for providing the venue but the users from whom I have gained information and enjoyment over the years.
johnr9q

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 08:12am PT
A few years back I noticed that a fellow was posting routes in rc.com and the only information was stuff that came directly from published guide books. He had probably never been to the areas much less climbed the routes. I had a problem accepting this as appropriate so posted this on the rc.com forum. The responses were that this guy was their biggest poster and that I shouldn't bad mouth him. I had been adding information on a number of routes in various areas that was information not included in the guide books and I figured this was the appropriate information to post not just repeat guide book info. I would hope that rc.com and mp.com etc posters would follow this example if they would I think the online guides would be a valuable resource. I do not like to see information available online that competes with guide book information. I buy all the guide books to the areas I am interested in. I usually pay much more than the author is asking (if I can buy directly from the author) as I realize that writing a guide book is really a labor of love and not usually profitable. I have talked to a number of guide book authors, they, like the rebolters, the trail builders and the new routers in the world that for, whatever the reason, get a kick out of doing these pursuits but not in it for the money. (not sure I used comma's correctly in this last sentence. Someone correct me and I'll edit it) One guide book author I know said he figured he made 19 cents an hour for his guide book efforts.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Mar 15, 2013 - 08:24am PT
That much?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 15, 2013 - 08:28am PT
Rockclimbing.com in particular, does not recognize author / poster copyrights. When you submit your data to that site you cede all control and all opinion over its eventual disposition.

Fact.

DMT
johnr9q

Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2013 - 08:40am PT
Dingus: Seems to me that is the way it should be. Something like climbers helping other climbers. Probably, in a lot of cases, that is not how it turns out. I have mixed feelings about any profit motive related to climbing. I guess in this world of capitalism that is pretty naive.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Mar 15, 2013 - 08:48am PT
$.19.... an hour! Sign me up...

I always take any online info with a chunk o salt....

Go and compair some of the conflicting driving directions on MP...

none of that info is checked. SummitPost was the best regarding info because one had to have actually climbed the climb if you were going to post info.... but that place is pretty much dead also, like rockclimbing.

ST is for the stories and the BS, oh yeah, CMAC's topos are pretty accurate if one is in need of such things.

I like Guide Books and don't mind paying for them - as long as the info is accurate.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Mar 15, 2013 - 09:06am PT
johnrq... I guess my focus isn't one of profit either (I mean, WHAT profit? :-)).

Rather, its one of control. I've seen some pretty despicable behavior on rockclimbing.com where users with admin or moderator privileges use their authority to take control of someone else's work. If you're ok with that, you're ok with that. I'm not. Its a Lord of Flies thing, the inmates are running the asylum there. Caveat emptor.

DMT
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:01am PT
I pretty much stopped going to rc.com years ago. Later I heard it had been sold to folks who owned a sky diving website I knew not only had it jumped the shark, but the shark had died of old age.

There's talk above about contributing for a love of the sport and fellow participants. When a website is owned by people whose main interest isn't climbing you know it's all about money.

I'll go where I can to find route info and it seems MP is the best place online now (except for the limited areas covered here).
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Didn't rockclimbing.com die in 2004?

Or at least enter a semi-permanent vegetative state?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:04am PT
I agree with DMT. It is anarchy, and it sucks.

Said it for years, but we need a paradigm shift. A good description from a first ascensionist should be regarded as intellectual property.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:13am PT
I will use any and all information I can get my hands on. I rarely could give 2 fuks about who did what when, unless of course I did the FA, then it is paramount to preserve the information for historical purposes.

If an FAist gives a shitty description and some yahoo comes along who can describe the route better, I go with the yahoo's description... especially if it is free.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:23am PT
who put my guide on pdf here and mtn project? I never released any such thing. Never was asked for an okeedokee..Do i care?
Certainly not. I let it go out of print. So ive been ripped and jipped outta that .19 per COPY..(Actually, its more loke -2.50 per copy i ever sold.. DID NOT DO IT for money- as it would be the lowest wage i ever worked for in my life. I did it to document my buddies efforts and those efforts of others i knew of in order to preserve what was going on in any given area. By such documentations, you let climbers know A) what is going on,B) how it is being done- and the standards most often used, C) Whos doing routes there- often indicates type of climbs D) You know which routes have been done- as to reduce retro fittings..
adatesman

climber
philadelphia, pa
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:38am PT
RC.com makes a lot more sense when you realize it's owned/run by a couple skydiving IT geeks who bought the site to increase their userbase and thereby increase negotiated page view ad revenue. They really don't care about the site past that, and most don't even climb.

Oh, and Dingus is right... Forget about copyright over there. Doesn't mean a thing. And the monkeys get all bent out of shape if you try and enforce your copyright by simply removing your work....
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Mar 15, 2013 - 10:57am PT
RC.com was a cool site... in 2004. Since then it has been on the decline, with a few highlights when Jung ran the place and Aric was doing the lab. +100 to all that Aric and Dingus said. That place is the definition of a poorly run site and a shining example of the what you get with incompetent and absentee managers.
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