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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 11, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
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I've always liked this demonstration (see below) of the clean, renewable energy (at least for the next 5 B yrs or so) and the amazing power of the Sun.
Sun, that Fusion Nuclear Reactor that is safely 93 million miles away from us that provides all the energy we ever need, and with a massive surplus, for our corner of the Universe.
The power (P = W/t) of the Sun from a 2m area here at the surface of the Earth ...
Jem Melts Rock Using Sunshine - Bang Goes The Theory - Series 3, Episode 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_nuvPKIi8
Simply amazing.
Or, how Will Gadd (climber/paragider pilot) and others can fly paragliders and hang gliders hundreds of miles from the power of the Sun heating the land --> land heating the air mass above --> and thereby launching thermals and wind events throughout the boundary layer of the atmosphere. We can thoughtfully harness this energy and travel hundreds of miles. Pretty darn cool.
The Sun can do amazing things.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 11, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Could be a while before Air Force 1 is a glider,..
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 11, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
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The future won't be so bright if the engineers who build solar roadways use LEDs (as shown in the picture) where there ought to be photovoltaics.
Also a big issue with solar panels is keeping them clean. They lose efficiency fast when they get dirty. I just shake my head when I see all the new solar farms out in the desert where there is no water to clean the surfaces.
That idea of putting them over canals looks good. You have a water source built in for periodic cleaning, and since mostly you will be removing wind blown sand and dust the water ought to be able to go right back into the canal.
Regarding the roads idea, what are the common characteristics of a good pavement surface (i.e. load bearing, good traction, durable, easily repairable via low tech, etc.,)and the optimal properties of the surface of a solar panel?
And then of course, the vehicles which use the road make shade. So only roads where there is very little traffic need apply? I ask because it should be obvious that the most efficient use of solar power is locally in urban areas where 1: it is needed and consumed the most and 2: less power is wasted by losses over long distance transmission lines. Remember that photovoltaics produce direct current which must be converted to alternating current - not a lossless process - before it can be safely and efficiently transmitted via long distance high tension lines.
Do these questions make me a knuckle dragging troglidite?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Mar 11, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
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Surly not an enthusiastic hippie
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Mar 11, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
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Solar panels are what, 20% efficient?
Covering more than 1% of the land with solar panels will likely cause detectable changes in ecosystems and services, and possibly some local weather conditions.
Surely covering more than 10% would fuk things up pretty good.
10,000 times the world's energy needs * 20% efficiency * 10% of the world covered in solar panels = 200 times the world's energy needs.
Still pretty good, but irrelevant over the long run when the world's energy "consumption" increases by what, 20% every couple decades? In 200 years the sun will barely be meeting our needs and I'm sure there will be substantial collateral damage from covering 10% of the earth with solar panels.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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Or on the status quo side we could cover more than 10% of the world land mass with melted polar ice caps. Hows that work for ya?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
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I don't like the status quo. I say we give solar a full opportunity, while considering some of the potential side effects along the way.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
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Tidal power has immense potential to produce nearly unlimited clean energy.
When you use Tidal... you also destroy any estuary located within your tidal dam that is created...
think about that...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
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Actually Guyman they can put wave generator systems on floating platforms out at sea well away from estuaries.
Nothing is perfect certainly not what we are doing now. The technologies and systems will rapidly develop and improve as we move inexorably in that direction.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 11, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
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Yes, I know about wave generators and I have read about using the natural curents in the ocean. They have potental....
There is no free lunch. Every type of energy has its trade offs.
I think that global warming and global cooling are real. But we have very little understanding of the true mechanism that controls the earths temp.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
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But most would have to agree that belching hydrocarbons into our atmosphere is unsustainable.
So Naysayers, educate yourselves before you knee jerk with negativity.
For example the comment was made about solar roads that they should use PV cells not LED lights.
Well if they had taken 30 more seconds to investigate rather than opine unwittingly they would have found the LED lights in the artists rendition are for signage and lane markers not electrical generation. The PV system is there if you look.
This is very informative.
http://solarroadways.com/intro.shtml
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 11, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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But most would have to agree that belching hydrocarbons into our atmosphere is unsustainable.
Don't know about MOST, certainly SOME.
Some of those have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ intrest in new ways to get more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from whomever.
Im not pro-pollution if you wish to know, BTW.
I just have whitnessed lots of BS slinging by folks who wish to get me to pay more for things.
so go look at some of the observations about the decline of Big Birds in the vicinity of wind farms. Go to North Palm Springs... down wind of the farms.... sand dunes where their were none before, and desert stripped of its soil down wind....
Like said before, no free lunch, everything is in a balance. A balance that WE have little understanding of.
And yes, the future is going to be awsome cause people make it so.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Mar 11, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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I like that idea for the photovoltaic cover shading the canal in India. It does require a structure to span the canal.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 11, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
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Think of how many jobs could be created rebuilding infrastructure for the green revolution of the 21st century. If you watch the solar road vid they have thought of a great many details including repurposing land fill waste and old tires by shredding them and using it in the the base layer. What a great place for land fill. AND, no more need for unsightly and dangerous overhead wires. All of it could be integrated into the shoulders. Brilliant.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 12, 2013 - 12:44am PT
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I wish they would slap one of those solar projects over the CAP in Arizona. Maybe the Colorado would have a chance of reaching the ocean again...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 12, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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Think of the potential.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Mar 12, 2013 - 01:25am PT
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Think of how many jobs could be created rebuilding infrastructure for the green revolution of the 21st century.
Yes. One of our biggest failures as a country as far as I'm concerned. Where are the "job creators" who need to get behind this? That's right, stuck in the muck of "bigger is better" and lost in the notion of "economies of scale."
No way a big company is going to do the necessary retrofitting... instead they propose huge solar farms covering fragile desert ecosystems.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Mar 12, 2013 - 01:37am PT
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The future may also be a bit whimsical.
Application in base camps seems likely.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 12, 2013 - 02:39am PT
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Ksolem and Moof raise some interesting points about the silliness of some of these ideas. Imagine carless highways kept clean by platoons of idiotic greens slobering all over their imaginary futures. Or imagine the waste of the multitudes who rip out and landfill the old while installing the latest and greatest renewable "smart home" features as fast as new generations of the I-phone. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it?
Out in the middle of Nevada,in a desert valley ten miles from Tonopah,stands a 640 tall steel reinforced concrete tower. This and some ten thousnd parabolic mirrors focused on it represents the worlds largest Molten Salt Tower energy project. When it's completed it is slated to produce up to 110 megawatts of 24 hour power since the molten (1100 degree) degree salt is stored during lightless hours in huge underground insulated tanks. The molten salt heat exchanges with water which produces steam that drives conventional efficient modern turbines. Uncle Harry Reid secured nearly a billion dollars of loan federal loan guarantees for the project. Keep watch folks, it will either turn out to be a huge success or another Solyndra. At this point i'm optimistic that the biggest drawback to solar (only power when the sunshines or inefficient and highly polluting battery storage) might have a good first solution.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Mar 12, 2013 - 10:23am PT
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Why denigrate?Are these ideas silly?
People ripping out and landfilling for the next great thing,that happens in a large way right now.Carpenters gotta eat ,like everybody else.No new wave of huge changes will happen,Nor will they affect the way we manage waste presently.These kinds of changes[alt.energy]are already their own economy,why condemn jobs?
Do you trust the present energy industries,we subsidize them.Why cant we have growth in other industries we barely support in comparison.Does an overwhelming majority have interest in fossil fuel energy?
What of the other 98%of the DOE's subsidized buiseness? ever mentioned?
Companies fail.
The negativity/debunking are connected to the money trail,hence the naysayers.....It is funny.I have friends who grow for a biodiesel company,they get paid by them,no subsides.We used to pay them to turn their crops under.
Been using batteries in a solar system for 10 years.Their is no such thing as "highly polluting battery storage".When the battery industry stops asking for 10 bucks a used core,we might see one on the side of the road,till then,not.Larger units bring more coin.Highly recyclable
Keep those good ,silly,high potential ideas coming ,Philo
And for keeping those roads clean,Weve got inmates
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