Wealth Distribution

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Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Yes John M you may be correct. I do have a hatred for the people responsible for greedily and systematically dismantling the hopes of a bright future for this country.

Couldn't agree with you more, Rick Summer. We need to tell those Wall Street thieves to take a hike. We can no longer afford to carry the weight of those capitalist leeches on our backs. It's time for them to pull their own weight.

It's time the work ethic got a little respect in this country.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
You guys on this forum, by virtue of being climbers who cherish freedom , have a possibility of rejecting the total loss of freedom of the cradle to grave safety net (actually total government control) that is being foisted upon us disguised as "social justice".

Classic
Please, elaborate, who is doing what now?
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
It's all about the "Slippery slope"

Any acceptance of socialism will Transform us sooner or later into a "Marxist Russia Style Communism"

and we all know that they killed millions of innocent and dissenters, right?

So this is how it works, they just change the definition so that to a Right Winger:
A Progressive Liberal = Stalinist Communist

Even though it's the complete opposite, and liberals are not communists, it doesn't matter, that's what they believe, and they will believe anything the right wing media says.

Why?
The Right Wing media tell them this, how could it not be true?
Why would they lie?

why?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
But how will we shoot the Wall Street as#@&%es in the head with no guns?
You can't deny that they richly deserve it.

edit: Frickin' Tiggit. You believe what you're told to, Drone.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 30, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
"Men are qualified for liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."
-Edmund Burke

John M

climber
Mar 30, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Every city on that list is in a country that has outlawed guns.

This list?

Vienna, Zurich, Geneva, Vancouver, Auckland and...Dusseldorf!

They can own guns in these countries. What are you talking about? They certainly own guns in Canada.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Mar 30, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
Just got back from a trip to the east side of Winnemucca Lake (dry since about 1910 when the inlet channel was diverted for irrigation for ranchers and farmers) to explore the Fishbone Cave area, which some controversial archaeological evidence points to paleoindian occupation as early as 15,000 years ago.Anyway i wanted to photograph any rock art and stand in the caves, looking out over an ancient lake, to get a feel for the place and imagine what those early occupants might have seen and felt so long ago.

Those stone age frontiersman were among the first wave of humans to set foot in the western hemisphere ,a frontier far wilder and less known to them than any colonists we might send to Mars.They lived, hit and miss i imagine, only by their code of conduct within the family groups and as dictated by the natural laws of this new land.They shared the land with the now extinct mega mammals; Mammoths, mastodons, giant sloth,Bison Antiquis (far larger than modern bison),Horse, Camel,Giant Beaver, and many more. There were also the familiar modern Bighorn Sheep, Deer,Elk,Pronghorn Antelope,Ducks,Geese,Etc., which they hunted or captured for food. There competition were the mega carnivores (now extinct) Short Face Bears, Saber Tooth Cats, American Lion, Dire Wolf, all of which were far larger and more dangerous than their modern counterparts.
The plants were all new also, nobody knew what was poisonous or nutritious or how to prepare it so it wasn't the former.Their isolation was total, their survival was in doubt, they stayed alive only by wit of mind and sweat of brow. Because of all this they lived to the utmost of human potential and were rewarded by complete freedom of spirit unhindered in its creative expression.

Now fast forward fifteen millennium to today in America which has often been referred to as the "last great hope of mankind". We've largely halted our expansion outwards, the nearby solar neighborhood being the logical next frontier, and instead have taken a turn inwards into the information age.While all good and well for efficiency and entertainment the IT world is largely diversionary and certainly no substitute for the human spirit's need for frontiers.We are at our best pushing the envelope both mentally and physically.

We have a 60,000 page tax code as the indecipherable law of the land,we have a homeland security to keep us all safe from each other,we have an EPA whose function now seems to be to stifle all development rather than encouraging environmentally sound development,we have the worlds most powerful military
constantly deployed nation building (or ruining) and policing the planet lest terror reach our shore,we have a FEMA to save our property and homes in the event we come face to face with the natural ferocity of nature,we have an Energy and Interior department engaged in picking losers over winners with the taxpayers dime,we have an Education Department and public school system that seemingly put the systems employee's welfare as a priority over education of children,we have a new, supposedly all inclusive, health care system that will likely leave multitudes uncovered and subject many categories of middle class to unaffordable costs, Etc., Etc. In short we have laws and regulations covering virtually all aspects of our lives, promote losers over winners, stifle anything but virtual creativity, and we (the working people be they rich or poor) are supposed to be good little consumers and taxpayers with ever larger chunks of our incomes being eroded or taxed away.

Who do we have to thank for all this? Personally, i don't blame the corporations,the environmentalists lobby, the lawyers lobby,the union's lobby's, state and local lobby's, etc. etc. No ,i blame the corrupted political system that is filled with crooks, cronies, and rigid idealogues
of both parties. Now they (one party or another) have spent vast amounts of time and treasure to convince their respective supporters that their path is the path of intelligence,compassion,forward progress while representing the opposing party as responsible for all that ails us as a country. It amazes me that they still, either party, have gullible supporters. Folks, the system has been overwhelmingly perverted by career politicians whose primary concerns are to maintain their reign on power while enriching themselves.Our wealth and potential is being redistributed to this new ruling class and those they represent while a large portion of the citizenry have been duped into confrontational debate over which party is worse than the other.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:13am PT
What's your solution?
Fight everyone, they are all bad/evil.

Good luck with that, I see a way out, and it can only be done with the cooperation with one side, the side that works for the people, not only to enrich themselves
There are many good people on that side, (and I can't think of any good on the other side)

read the letter posted on the Republican thread

Do you have any idea of what's going on in Congress? apparently not, maybe you need some more education on the facts.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:15am PT
Credit: Dr. F.
new world order2

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Fixed it for ya :)

Saying that both parties are the same is just what the new world order WANTS you to say.

How does it feel to be drunk on kool-aid? Bah-ah-ah-ah....

photo not found
Missing photo ID#269454
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Apr 1, 2013 - 11:39pm PT


The workers know perfectly well that the thieves don't wake up at 6 in the morning. The real thieves, those who enrich themselves by robbing the fruits of our labors are those capitalist sons-of-bitches.

Durruti, of course, is correct. Unfortunately in America, we have been lied to for so long, and so well, that we no longer know who are the producers and who are the leeches. We despise and have no respect for honest work and instead hold paper shuffling conmen in the highest regards.

God save the Republic.
BBA

climber
OF
Apr 2, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
I have a simple question, given the first chart from the video on the first post: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?

Credit: BBA

If one cannot propose another solution then isn't the argument over?

A society with too great inequalities may become unstable. Nations have a history of revolutions in wealth inequality has been causative, and the results are usually worse than a change in the tax code.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 2, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I have a simple question, given the first chart from the video on the first post: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?

Bill, I have to answer that with another question. If income is the change in wealth, doesn't making the tax code more "progressive" merely make it harder for anyone new to enter the highest wealth strata?

The arguments of those who use the data estimating the current distribution of wealth to decry that "the rich just get richer" rest on an implicit assumption that the identity of "the rich" remains relatively constant over time. I personally think reality contradicts that assumption, and the relatively scant data on the subject backs this up.

Specifically, comparing the current, static wealth distribution says nothing about whether a household with low income now will remain one with low income in the future. Time series studies of individual households suggest that this is not the case -- household incomes tend to rise over time, and households still tend to move up, not down, in economic well-being.

That said, the trend has not been steady. One famous study by the Boston Fed showed that the rate of household upward mobility has, in fact, lessened. Ironically, though, that decline started not in the 1980's, or the 2000's, when marginal tax rates on the highest incomes decreased, but in the 1990's, when those rates increased. http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/wp/wp2009/wp0907.pdf

What I find particularly worrisome about that study is not the obvious, viz. that how much you start with affects how much you end with. Rather, I find particularly troubling the conclusion that upward mobility for black households in particular has gotten harder over the study period (from 1967-2004). To me that shows at least two things: significant barriers to prosperity remain for huge numbers of black households (not surprising) and most of government policy designed to help the situation has either been ineffective or counterproductive.

I'd love to see some rigorous treatment of the latter possibility.

John

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
"If income is the change in wealth"

Income is not the change in wealth, it is one variable.
BBA

climber
OF
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
John - I'm looking for something clear and simple. The terms used and the the reality that exists are clear enough. I just want to know by what means you make money go from one group to another in our democratic, rule of law system? I don't think you answered that.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 2, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
I just want to know by what means you make money go from one group to another in our democratic, rule of law system? I don't think you answered that, or I need a bigger fan to get through the smokescreen.

Start with a simple example.

Who is the richest man in America?

Did he start in that group?

If not, how did he move from one group to another?

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Apr 2, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
BBA, it's called being a thief. Dave points out that many thieves don't start out as top dog, but that does not change their status. They are leeches that suck the blood of the producers, plain and simple.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 2, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
At about 8-9 min the origin of this thinking is explained, but you really should watch the whole thing.

BBA

climber
OF
Apr 2, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
I'm not looking for an answer that says some are thieves or how things got this way. People who think my proposition is correct should hold their peace. Let's hear someone who has written passionately that tax change is bad to tell what the alternative is. Consider it a thought experiment.

What is your a simple answer to this: How do you redistribute wealth in the U.S. if not by changing the tax code to bring it back to a more progressive mode?

Credit: BBA


Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Apr 2, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Good points BBA, yes we need a progressive tax system to adjust the wealth despartiy, which is corrosive to our nations health

Republicans have created our huge debt and given the rich free wealth with their policies and blocked the Dems from fixing the situation,
and then have the gall to complain about how the Gov. is broke, pure hypocrisy

John E just likes to muddy the waters with the what ifs, slippery slopes and other discredited BS

There is no convincing him that he is wrong, he will cherry pick through the gates of hell to make a point that will satisfy him alone.

But he is The Only Right winger that can make a point, the others will just accuse you of wanting communism.

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