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John M
climber
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Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism doesn't work either, but lots of people seem to think that it does.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"...I find the idea that the wealthy determine elections and laws more an article of faith than one based on evidence."
Yeah, that's common retort, since it shifts the onus to provide proof that wealth influences our democracy to the person making the charge.
Howzabout providing some direct proof that it doesn't?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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everyone gets only one vote
Do you mean every representative gets only one vote?
I think a lot of the wealthy v. poor discussion doesn't surface the mechanics/the "how, that John's alluding to. The debates are ideological in most cases. Note the lack of citations in the thread.
It's not to say a lot of wealth isn't concentrated. But that's not a moral fault, per se. The systemic rules of right that govern how we make money, and how much care we should be providing to our fellow person are debatable.
Getting away from ideological generalizations is the first step.
Talk specifics.
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John M
climber
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Talk specifics.
The discrepancy in wealth distribution is growing too big. How to fix that, I don't know, though I do believe that the wealthy could pay more taxes. .
Another thing that I would work on in california is prop 13. It makes it difficult for new businesses to start because they have to compete on an uneven playing field. If they buy a property, then their property taxes are often many times greater then established businesses. It also makes it difficult for people to change locations. They can't afford the higher tax rates if they move. Jody gave a prime example of that as a highway patrol person who wanted to move to another area, but couldn't because he wouldn't be able to afford the higher property taxes.
Beyond that.. I don't know all the ends and outs. I only know that people are feeling the pinch and its not the wealthy who are feeling it. The longer that goes on, the more people will rise up. If people want that to happen in a calm manner, then the powers that be had better start working on it now.
Going bankrupt because one has a health issue is another concern. But many people are ignoring that. Everything is fine as Rome burns.
I would also work on balancing unions power, rather then trying to do away with them by demonizing them.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Gary, it's also about people retaining the fruits of their savings, investing (which, by definition, is deferring consumption), ideas, actions and labors, rather than having it confiscated by the political powers to distribute to others who didn't earn it to buy their reelection.
John, I could not agree with you more. That's exactly why I turned socialist many years ago. I'm happy to see you've finally seen the light, Fellow Traveller.
I think it's a shame that the political process seems hell bent on escalating the confiscatory power of the capitalist class, but in the long run, it will only hasten a better day. People will only take so much, and then like the last era of Robber Barons, the people will awaken and organize once again.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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John, it is really sickening to see you defend unlimited and unbridled wealth disparity.
You must have some limit to what you think is a reasonable disparity for a healthy society.....1% owns 99%? do you have no limit?
A large part of the reason that the very wealthy become, and stay that way, is because they manipulate the rules, so as to give themselves an advantage. They create very complex legal protections for certain income streams, that no one who doesn't access very high skill and costly legal talents, can. It doesn't make sense that "access is equal" when the smallest unit of participation is 10 million dollars.
You know this is so.
Despite your cautions to the contrary, you know that the inequality is increasing. You know the range from lowest to highest paid person in a company is vastly increasing over other HEALTHY economies and societies.
Why are you hiding from the truth?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Reagan slashed taxes, slashed regulations, gave welfare to Corporations with the direct consequence of Wealth concentration
Citation please.
The Middle Class needs a lobbyist group to make sure that we are heard
Interesting idea. That should be our representatives in the first place, no?
the voice and the power to do anything they want
Not sure this is true. That's a strong statement. Romney didn't get elected, so as a case in point, they don't get anything they want.
Are those individuals that are engaged in this alleged intentional class warfare more organized, smarter, stronger, better armed? Are we deliberately too busy to protest our elected reps and require them to do the putative public's bidding?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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A large part of the reason that the very wealthy become, and stay that way, is because they manipulate the rules, so as to give themselves an advantage. They create very complex legal protections for certain income streams, that no one who doesn't access very high skill and costly legal talents. It doesn't make sense that "access is equal" when the smallest unit of participation is 10 million dollars.
Ken, how does this work mechanically, say if you wanted to correct those rules?
Are you suggesting someone born into wealth doesn't deserve most of their inheritance because their parents worked their assess off to provide an easier quality of life for their children?
Must each generation "earn" their wealth?
Which income streams seem disparately slighted in the direction of the already wealthy?
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Not sure this is true. That's a strong statement. Romney didn't get elected, so as a case in point, they don't get anything they want.
Munge, you don't think they got what they wanted with Obama?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Gary,
Who is "they"?
A sufficient part of the electorate got what that part of the electorate wanted within the confines of a two party system.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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A sufficient part of the electorate got what that part of the electorate wanted within the confines of a two party system.
Said two parties conveniently being the far right wing of the corporate party and the moderate right wing of the corporate party.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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This is all you need to see:
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Good thread and topic. Learning much.
Really liked Dr. F's first post, among many others.
matty, "Trees" is my favorite Rush song
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Wealth distribution was controlled by higher taxes on higher incomes and regulations
Huh? By controlling or limiting high incomes, all you're doing is making it harder for the identity of the most wealthy to change. Can we please stop confusing income and wealth?
And Ken, I most certianly do not know, much less believe, that the most wealthy achieved their wealth by bending the rules. That, too, is an article of faith by the Enviers, with rather scant evidence to back it up.
Futhermore the idea that only the relatively well-off can save is BS. I don't expect welfare recipients to save, because the system penalizes them for doing so, but 40%? Are you talking in the US? The 40% level was around $3,000.00 per month in 2012 per wikipedia's compilation of US Census data, and I personally know several families who are able to save, and do in fact save, with that level of income. I grew up in such a family. We had one car. Our house had one bathroom. My parents lived very simply, and they used the money they saved to invest in commercial real property, that, after several years, made them enough to provide for my higher education and to support themselves in retirement rather well, and yet still had enough to give generously to church and charity.
I had an uncle and aunt who would tell a similar story. It's a matter of choosing to spend less than you make. That involves sacrifices, for which the capitalist system provides rewards in the form of return on investment.
On the other hand, I had a law partner who 20 years ago told me "How can anybody live on only $140,000 a year?" (That is what he made in the late 1980's at his old firm. By the way, he was a Democrat.) He had no intention of saving. His father was a doctor, and his father-in-law a builder, and they did all the saving. He was just waiting to inherit it. I doubt that his wealth will increase.
I share El Cap's concern about the size of CEO compensation. I don't think many CEO's of publicly traded companies are worth that kind of money, but there's an easy cure for that. The salaries of all high-paid corporate officers in publicly-traded corporations are disclosed on the relevant 10-K's and 10-Q's. I don't invest in corporations whose boards are too inept to control officer pay.
I think that in this area, as in most others, our experiences determine our beliefs. The relatively comfortable people I know made their money honestly through hard work, savings, self-denial, delayed gratification, and smarts. That leads me to a natural hostility toward philosophies that say people in the United States don't deserve the wealth they have. I'm sure the experiences of others differ, so their perceptions do as well. Our sample sizes are probably too small.
For all these resaons, I don't expect to convince those who rail at the level of alleged wealth inequality, but I would appreciate your considering what you imply before you accuse those who believe as I do of intellectual or actual dishonesty. I have very good -- and very personal -- reasons for believing as I do.
Sorry for the rant, but this is a day where catharsis has its uses.
John
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bparry
Trad climber
New Haven, CT
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Reason on the taco -- thank-you JEleazarian
Wealth equality would be monumentally unfair
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John M
climber
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And Ken, I most certianly do not know, much less believe, that the most wealthy achieved their wealth by bending the rules. That, too, is an article of faith by the Enviers, with rather scant evidence to back it up.
Nice John.. real nice..
as for bending the rules. I couldn't begin to tell you all the various ways I have seen rules bent. But that isn't even really the point. They make the rules. They don't just bend them. And if they can't get rules through that suit them, then they control the overseers and those who bring judgment. How many times have we seen giant corporations or extremely wealthy people get slaps on the wrists, while the rest of us pay heavy penalties if we "bend" a rule.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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How ironic is it that at least half the people on ST who feel the need to opine about the evils and inequality of wealth, are people who blew off their 20's, 30's and in some cases, entire lives pursueing the "dirt bag" lifestyle. These are the same people who have to beg from friends when they have accidents, drop dead, or can't support their dogs, children, or wives. Yeah, you're the peeps who would know a thing or two about wealth, LOL.
I'm not wealthy, my parents were dirt poor, and yet I manage to own my home outright, drive a 2013 car that's paid for, and have enough money to do pretty much anything I want to do. Funny how when you work for things and take responsibility for making your own life comfortable, you no longer have to envy or hate the "wealthy". What they do is their business.
The problem is not the 1% with extreme wealth, the problem is the people who thought slacker was a job description.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said!!!!
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John M
climber
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Worked my ass off since I was a kid. Owned my own business. Owned my own home. Put 10 grand in the bank by the time I was 19. Thats when minimum wage was 1.60 an hour. You do the math. If you are able to .
Lost everything when I lost my health.
Kiss my ass CanyonCat and TGT.
This is who you side with JohnE. Envious Pfffffftt..
I wouldn't be you for all the money in the world.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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What john M said!!!
EDIT: where do you guys' work?
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