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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 4, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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I know I'm going to get flamed on this one, but BITD, in my day, 70's (I can hear the washed up, old fart comments already) chalk was considered as ugly as pin scars. When we eshewed pins for nuts it was partly to protect the rock but also because the pin scars were considered ugly!. I see so many people bitching about chipping and over bolting (I agree that they suck!), why not a furor over the abundance of chalk. If your hands sweat, that's not the rocks fault. We used to at least use the local dirt or a mixture of dirt with the chalk to minimize the climb by numbers look.
OK, flame on!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Your going to compare chalk to chipping???????????????
LOL...
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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How else are supposed to know where to grab?
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ruppell
climber
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Chalk sucks. I'd love to see it outlawed. But people are addicted to it so it will stay around. Remember prohibition. lol
This should be a great discussion. Can't wait to hear from Stannard and Gill about it. I'm still curious who was the first climber to use it as well. Had to be one of the gymnasts.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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I agree, not as bad as chipping, but how about the on going opinion that bolts and hangars should be camoed, yeah chalk can be washed off, but does anybody do that?
Edit: Yeah, I'm kind of waiting for the ball to drop from JoGill and Mr. Ament, both of whom I greatly respect.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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how did being gay become politically correct?
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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when did whining like a bitch about stupid sh#t like chalk become politically correct?
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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Hey Karo, I respect that it's probably here to stay, but if climbing areas can get shut down because of unsightly shiny hangars, how does chalk not offend just as much. I don't personally find it much different from leaving trash on the trail.
Does anyone remember when some yahoos painted dayglo orange dots up the standard route on North Maroon?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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using chalk is gay...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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A Santa. Monica regionalism against chalk perhaps?
It was used and accepted at Devils lake when I started climbing in the 60's, okay at Indian rock in Berkeley in '71 when I got there too. Strong in the valley when I started going there,
Well established in Vedauwoo by the early 70's. there have always been pockets where it wasn't accepted though.
"Most rock looks better with chalk". -Dick Cilley mid seventies
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
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I'm just recently in Santa Monica, my original opinions were formed in Gunnison and Boulder in the early 70's. (although more was used in Boulder than in Gunnison).
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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I would assume that it became widely acceptable as a result of geographical/meteorological conditions. The more humid, the higher the probability of starting to use chalk, and or to continue using chalk once tried.
I saw the strong climbers using it in 80ish, plus it was in the mags, and because of that I learned the use of it was ok. I suspect as a process of legitimation, that's how it continued and propagated.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Gill, of course, initiated the use of chalk. But all he did was carry a block around and dust a bit on his fingertips. The holds on a Gill boulder problem were almost never visible because of chalking.
I'm afraid I had a lot to do with the spread of chalk, because I traveled a lot more than John did at the time, and I was using it on climbs, not just boulders. Climbers in other areas were universally derisive, then tried it out, and the next thing you knew they had some chalk too.
In our defense, we had a chunk or two in the front pocket of our pants and only reached in when the holds were small and crimpy. Where folks now dip compulsively into their chalk bags, we just ritualistically wiped our hands on our pant sides. No climbs were marked in white.
The big and most destructive change came from Yosemite, although I don't know who initiated it. Obviously, some grains of chalk in your pocket wasn't going to work for sweaty hand jams, and so the chalk bag was invented so that climbers could dip in and get full hand coverage. The ritualistic and semi-unconscious wiping of the hands quickly transformed into equally mindless dips into the chalk bag, and very quickly climbs got covered with an ugly connect-the-dots coating of white.
Climbers have claimed for years that this coating is really benign because it washes off. After a number of years of participation in various chalk clean-up projects, I've concluded that this is false. In many cases, the chalk seems to bond with the rock and becomes permanent.
Nowadays, bouldering and sport climbing have ushered in far more communal aspects of the climbing experience. The chalk is a bit like the urine markings of the wolf pack, delineating territory and advertising the passage of others. A fair number of newer climbers may never have climbed on unmarked rock at all, and view the chalk as an integral part of the climbing scene, much as hikers from another era viewed cairns.
Stannard in particular worried about the visual impacts of chalk on land that was, after all, a nature preserve. He was fastidious about rapping down his projects with a brush and spray bottle and cleaning off the chalk as soon as possible. Like a number of forward-looking things Stannard did, this did not catch on.
Another Stannard invention that never really caught on, in spite of the fact that it holds out by far the best hope for reducing the visual impact of chalking, is the chalk sock. The fine dusting delivered by the sock works just as well, perhaps even better, for gripping, and it leaves only a tiny fraction of the residue you get from a hand slathered in dust from a bag. I've climbed out-of-the-way pitches in many areas using a chalk sock and the climb looks virtually untouched afterwards. The downside of the sock would appear to be the need for more frequent reapplication, but in view of the fact that many climbers have their hand in the bag at every move, this hardly seems to be a real issue.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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Well Tami, in a semi arid climate rain sure doesn't wash most of it away. I remember going back to Eldo about 7 or 8 yrs after I learned to climb there and being dismayed at the greasy buildup of chalk on most of the go to holds. At least for me, that was where rating creep was a real life experience.
Edit: Leave it to rgold to bring perspective as he always does.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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BTW sorry for my typo in the title politcally vs politically (can you fix that?)
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Whoa there OP!
Don't confuse ethics. It is very simple:
Chalk always good,
bolts always ok,
chipping always bad.
There is only black and white, no gray area.
What you see in your photo isn't chalk, it is a blessing from the climbing gods from the 70s climbers to modern climbers, so despite what land managers and general public may think, it is always beautiful.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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I don't like that powdered chalk I like mine chunky.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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^^^^^^^^
Ahhhhh! I get it, just like the pin scars are presents from the 60's climbing gods, so that we can have all of those nice little finger wrenchers :-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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By and large, I have generally found chalk more accepted than not in the last forty odd years of climbing. It does seem odd that there wasn't more resistance.
I don't use it Canyonlands and other places where it is 'officially' banned. Though I l ow a lot of people who don't use it in Indian Creek. I respect their view but do t feel compelled to forego it myself.
The first time I was published was a to gue and cheek letter to the editor of Climbing, about this topic. They reprinted it in a best of issue a decade or so later.
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Yeah, I remember those discussions....
I find myself using chalk to just to relax. Not because I need it. I can quit anytime I want. Besides, I only use it recreationally. And it's not like I use it every day. Really, I can quit anytime. <twitch, twitch>
OK, serious answer. I do use chalk out of habit more than sweaty hands and lately have been trying to use less or not at all. But, to answer your question: like you I've been climbing since the early 1970's and I think that tagging holds with chalk, overbolting, chipping, leaving trash and stuff like that became PC when climbers began to believe it was OK to sh!t in their own beds. As a group we don't care. We became selfish and we won't police ourselves. The landowners will have to do that for us.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Ahhhhh! I get it, just like the pin scars are presents from the 60's climbing gods, so that we can have all of those nice little finger wrenchers :-)
Now you are getting it! And the amazing thing is: you can still pound scores of pins on El Cap or Fischer towers raining down chossy mud and it is considered fine style....
... but don't chip a boulder or the Ethics Police will film you and anonymously post up a vid, and DPM will gladly post it up for a rockin out hate fest!
... and if you chip a whole crag, you get a spread in Rock and Ice!
Its like an ethics roulette wheel, you never know who will win and who will lose!
But chalk is always a sure bet, because it is invisible.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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Chalk Balls rule and it's the only way I use chalk. Anyone against chalk can suck my chalk balls....
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Baggins
Boulder climber
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Well, at least it keeps you on route. Actually, looking at that picture you posted, then maybe not so much
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Chalk was used on climbs in the Meadows and Yosemite when I started climbing in the late 1960's, although not by everyone. Chalk was used by virtually everyone bouldering there, and in Berkeley, by then. I used to use a block for fingertips or palms, if it was a greasy mantle, at the start of a boulder route, but did not sew up a chalk bag until 1971. I didn't start using it on climbs until about 1975, and then only sparingly. I don't recall when I noticed that everyone seemed to be chalking up for everything, but I would say sometime in the mid- to late- 1970's. At that point, and since, I've gone with the flow.
John
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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I blame society.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Well, at least it keeps you on route...
On popular routes topropers and deluded leaders will chalk up all kinds of sucker holds. This makes an onsight flash more difficult, so I say we up the grades on such climbs.. ;-)
In areas where acid rain is a problem it should be a policy for climbers to introduce as much chalk as possible into the environment. I remember back in the '70's they were dropping the stuff into Adirondack lakes from planes in an effort to neutralize acidity carried in rain from midwest power plants.
Seriously though, it's not like it's toxic or does any real harm. After that aircraft carrier sized asteroid augers into Earth and life as we know it is destroyed the whole thing will seem pretty trivial.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'm not as ethically pure as Yvon, so I have never actually seen anybody chalk up to rappel.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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using chalk is gay...
I thought gay folk used lube, not chalk.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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But on a more serious note... I first started using chalk in about '73 when I was bouldering with Barry Bates. If it was good enough for him you KNOW I was all over that shite!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Chalk. Disgusting substance that belongs in a rock gymnasium or in a gymnasium. I never do any bouldering, never really did much at all if I could help it. Too much like work, and frankly, I didn't give a damn about chalk on boulders.
When it began showing up on the Harry Daley route on Monday Mornig Slab, I took umbrage, to say the least.
I recall an entry in the Climbs section about the Crescent Arch on Daff Dome (was it RR who penned it?) where mention was made of a certain young Coloradan taking off on it in a cloud of chalk dust.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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I was climbing in the Alabama Hill last fall when I realized I was off and on staring staring at the ground at the base of a climb when I remembered that we used to put our hands in the dirt at Stoney point to calm the sweat. In that sense it was a very practical behavior. If the standards of climbing were not being pushed so hard, chaulk would not have come to be. Has anyone blamed John Gill yet? Hahah! It had to be the gymnast element that brought it in. I have no problem with it, but in popular areas, it certainly can be a problem. Ron Anderson already brought up the Taping analogy;
Yup many screamed it was AID,, just like they did when taping became the standard. Now we have gripper gloves and every other gadget going on..
The use of chaulk is certainly less egregious than mummifying the hands to jumar a crack.
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ruppell
climber
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How about the guy who's taped up then dips in the chalk? lol
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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I don't chaulk when I builder - maybe I'll try to carry that forward. Wouldn't hurt to climb bare once in awhile. I could claim I have a behavioral disorder for the reason I could not make the moves. Would be a good way to get even with the guys that say I'm too tall.
Fuggin thing was viscious with sharp crystals inside the finger sized crack.. It was survival only usage.
Maybe the ethic for cracks like that is to do them in a way that you don't F*#K yourelf up, and if that doesn't work, call it clean aid and use true aid devices, or have a separate standard where if it is done without tape it's rated harder at least. We all know how F*#king easy tape can make something.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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A point not made yet I think is what was used before chalk (besides dirt). At Indian Rock and in the region, we were using powdered rosin. I am referring to mid sixties. What dancers use on their floors. We had it in a bag like chalk or in a sock. I got into it for a couple of years until chalk came in. Rosin had tremendous friction, far more than chalk, until it would get gooey. We would put it on our shoes sometimes for boulder moves. Problematically it would become "part of the rock" far more than chalk, and probably more quickly. It would contribute to burnishing and filling in holds, actually, like the varnish it actually is.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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A complicating factor with chalk is that, although climbers think of chalk as a grip-enhancer, it performs another function, which is to inhibit the deposition of oils from the skin on the rock. I suspect that high-volume routes climbed repeatedly without chalk would become insufferably greasy. (I know when I used to climb the rope in the gym BITD, I first had to make a trip up and thoroughly chalk the rope from top to bottom, otherwise the grease from other users made it impossible, at least for me, to hang on one-handed.)
This is why the solution isn't no chalk, it is the chalk sock.
As for rosin, the Bleausards were totally into it (pouf, they called it). You carried some tied up in a bandanna and not only put it your hands but also used the bandanna to smack the rosin onto footholds. The rosin did help feet to stick, but it removed a thin film of rubber from shoes and bonded it to the rock. The result was that every foothold became a blackened smudge.
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Crackslayer
Trad climber
Eldo
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What's super lame is tick marks...especially on easy climbs. Next time I see a person ticking a hold I am litterally going ape sh#t on them. NOT Acceptable to tick holds IMO.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Original pouf = pine sap
Tried it once at Black Mountain on a boulder already covered in sap due to the drought and beetles. It is lame.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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I do think there should be a separate standard. I have a bone spur on my right wrist from a break that has forced me to try things differently. We have standards up the yin yang, so why not?
I'm not saying you get extra points for f*#king yourself up - you get the extra points if you don't use tape and don't f*#k yourself up.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The first thing I learned after my 30 yr. climbing hiatus was that my skin had thinned.
Oh yeah, me too---without the hiatus. Maybe if I wasn't an Eastern wanker face-climber, I would have refined my hand-jamming technique over the years so as to offset the thinning of the skin, but things haven't worked out that way, and tape is the only alternative to a blood bath on even simple jams.
On a related note, my feet can't stand the pain of jamming either any more. I actually wondered whether my foot-jamming days were over, until TC Pros gave me a little hope.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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T Hocking said it for me.
I used to laugh at people who used tape. "That sh*t is aid!" I would exclaim. That was easy to say since the backs of my hands were like boot leather. I think it is long term sun exposure which is the culprit, but today the skin on the back of my hands my hands is more delicate. The palms and finger tips, which have not had the same exposure, are fine - tough as nails.
Anyway I'm still good with naked hands most of the time, but if you see me taping up for some sharp crack consider it a favor. You won't find my blood all over the route next time you do it. Personally I prefer to see chalk all over the rock over bodily fluids.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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I use chalk. So sue me. It seems that some places less is more, though. We noticed in Sequoia that we didn't use much.
Donini edit: You use the Freeways, don't cha? You can see those from Space!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Since when are climbers politically correct?
I know that chalk seems to be a permanet part of a lot of climbs but 10,000 years from now after mankind has hopefully gone extint and no longer threatens the Planet, chalk will be long gone but chipping will still be evident.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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I'm still curious who was the first climber to use it as well
Me. I took a gymnastics course at Georgia Tech in the fall of 1954 and immediately began using chalk for climbing. In the mid 1950s I took it to the Tetons and demonstrated it to climbers from the east and west coasts and some Europeans, including Brits. I took along a small block when I did Teton climbs as well as bouldering at Jenny Lake and climbing at Blacktail Butte.
I camped, climbed and bouldered with Yvon and others from CA in the mid and late 1950s. Some of the CA climbers were enthusiastic about chalk, but Yvon always felt it was (minor) cheating. Nevertheless, I saw a photo of him climbing in Canada some years later, wearing a chalk bag. Pat Ament had a lot to do with its use in Yosemite.
I spent a year at the University of Chicago (1958-1959) and visited Devils Lake several times, initiating its use there.
Chalk was particularly useful on controlled dynamic moves (which I pursued in an effort to use momentum as I had practised it in gymnastics - particularly the rope climb and the still and flying rings)
And yes, years later I saw the deleterious effects at various bouldering areas - caked and slicked holds and white patches everywhere. No matter what one thinks up, if it becomes popular it sinks to the lowest common denominator, I suppose.
Sorry if I have offended you. (not really!)
;>)
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Chalk be became cool when I did my first 5.9..1978
Cams were pretty controvasial though !
Classic old mountain- jon Allen free climbs Great Wall.. but uses chalk
I know I used chalk on GW
OP YA and when i bought a chalk bag form Hudon in '78..in NH
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Everything in moderation. I do use chalk.
It has gotten out of control. I've been guilty in the past as well. Now I try to only use chalk when I'm sweating. I find that focusing on my breathing is a better way to stay relaxed and focused than obsessive chalking.
Something else that I do to try and not contribute to the problem is to do most warmups without chalk. I feel that if I can redpoint something almost two full number grades harder, I should be able to get up the warmups without contributing to the over-chalked slimy mess. And...take a brush and clean the holds on the way down as a common courtesy to the next climbers.
If people used chalk responsibly, it wouldn't be the problem that it is. The other day I saw a guy chalk on a boulder problem to jump off. Just doesn't seem necessary.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Chalking is sometimes a mental thing. Same with tincture. Just dipping and smelling the benzoin relieved the fear factor a bit. A bit of a pause to reorganize the mind.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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I didn't even know chalk could be politically correct
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Politically correct is a dumb term. Monkeys should have no use for it.
I get your drift, JohnTP.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
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Well, Mr Gill has spoken and so have a lot of you. It sounds to me, like most things, moderation is probably the best advice. Personally, you can still think what you want and do what you want, and probably will. ( and that's been around with climbers for a long time:-)
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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10,000 years from now after mankind has hopefully gone extint and no longer threatens the Planet, chalk will be long gone but chipping will still be evident.
To whom? Or should I say, to what?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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There used to be a really strong no chalk stand in Arizona in the 70s and the standards were breaking into 5.12. There was some incredibly bold climbing being done, too, with some no chalk climbers even doing 5.11x climbs! Not me, that's for sure! I have incredible respect for friends and partners from that period. Then into the 80s that standard faded.
You don't have to use chalk to climb hard.
Style is the way you choose to climb that doesn't have any impact on the environment. Knock yourself out. Ethics concern those things we do that have a significant impact. Chalk, bolts, heads, and pins have significant impact and come under the category of ethical versus stylistic issues for climbers.
We as a group used to be good wilderness stewards. Now we generally aren't. Chalk and bolts especially are issues that concern our relationships with other outdoor/wilderness users and can potentially result in limiting our access.
Chalk is littering; it's trash! No matter how anyone tries to frame it, chalk is litter (just like leaving tape wads lying around). And, at some level, chalk is (an) aid (but, then so are shoes and I could never get good at the barefoot thing). It diminishes the experience of discovery for the next climber and the aestheics of the environment.
In hunting, the tools you use will show how skilled a hunter you are. Use a long range rifle with a high powered scope may bag you a buck, but if you're good you can do it with a muzzle loader. If you're really good, you can do it with a compound bow. if youre better, you can do it with a longbow, and if you're really a badass you can jump out of a tree with a Bowie knife and get it done.
Having less technology between us and the experience forces us to be more skilled, more trained, and more conscious. So much of what we do in climbing has become just another consumer culture sport where all that matters is who has the bigger.....numbers. It doesn't matter how hard you climb. It matters what you experience and who you become from doing it. If you do a given climb racked to the nines with all the modern gizmos and chalked to the elbows, that's cool. If you do the same climb in a two inch swami and a rack of old hexes sans chalk, that's really cool.
A great standard, IMHO, is from the 1972 Chouinard catalog:
"Thus, it is the style of the climb, not attainment of the summit, which is the measure of personal success. Traditionally stated, each of us must consider whether the end is more important than the means. Given the vital importance of style we suggest that the keynote is simplicity. The fewer gadgets between the climber and the climb, the greater is the chance to attain the desired communication with oneself—and nature."
Chalk is essentially a universally accepted practice in climbing, but is it really an acceptable one? How did using chalk become politically correct? Because we humans are lazy and undisciplined by nature, we tend to want to measure ourselves by what others are doing, and we often make excuses or justifications for our behaviors we know are less than exemplary.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Chalk is aid...
...skin is IN !!!!1111
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Steve Grossman is the crazy gifted climber I was thinking of when mentioning chalkless 5.11x in Arizona!
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rich sims
Social climber
co
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I remember a few climbers that did not use chalk by 76. Well I remember one Jeff Copper a fun guy to climb with.
Late 70s I called a Tucson climbing shop to see if they wanted to buy some of my gear.
When I brought up Chalk bags I was told Arizona climbers don't use chalk.
I laughed and said they sure do in Yosemite.
He replied monkey see monkey do.
We laughed I told him I would send my price list as they used haul bags as well in Yosemite and Baja.
A month later I received a order for a couple haul bags and an order for chalk bags.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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"PC" would be someone sticking a microscope up your a*# about how much chalk you are using etc. OP is off base.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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I'm a light chalker and honestly haven't seen that many routes that look like a connect the dots problem. Tick marks piss me off though.
Mark Twight has some pretty nice screeds concerning chalk usage with which I pretty much agree. Think of how much energy people waste hanging on a route and dipping their hands every damn' move?
I saw this sign at a climbing gym in Belguim one time that said something to the effect that no matter how much chalk you put on your hands, the problem isn't going to get any easier, which in it's simplicity made me realize the silliness of excessive chalking.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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It's all John and Pats fault! (yeesh, just kidding..)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think chalk is here to stay, but a number of people have said that moderation is the key. So here are two things to try.
1. Don't chalk up while you're still on the ground fer chrissakes. Wait until you actually need some drying action. In many cases, this by itself will get you fairly far up a pitch without yet making a mess.
2. At the risk of being repetitive: a chalk sock is automated moderation. Use one!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I've never used chalk except on some rare (very hot) occasions. One of the more interesting things to come out of that is that on putting up FAs when I've had young belayers help out. When it was their turn to come up the pitch each of them has essentially said the same thing:
I'm going to have to pay way more attention to what you are doing this next pitch because I had no idea where to put my hands and don't know if I've ever climbed anything without chalk on it before.
And that gets to my biggest objection to chalk - a climbing-by-the-dots mentality. It dumbs down climbs and climbing to a remarkable and never mentioned degree.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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You don't have to use chalk to climb hard.
And you don't have to climb hard to use chalk.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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I started with chalk in the early 70's at Devils Lake. It was Ok because I could give it up anytime I wanted. I thought I had solved the chalk problem in the mid 80's with an article in CLIMBING just seperating the use.
North Face - no chalk/South Face - chalk; AM-no chalk/PM - chalk; etc.
I took a vote but didn't really get much for results.
Maybe it was the $1.00 poll tax I charged. Oh well.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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One time Lori looks at me and says "You're a chalk mess". I guess I had chalk all over me. I replied "I'm the Chalk Mess Monster".
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deschamps
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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You don't have to use chalk to climb hard.
True, if you want to wait a few days or months for good temps and conditions to come in. But false most of the time. 5.13 and up gets very difficult with sweaty hands.
For those that blame chalk on climbers' desire to climb harder grades than the next guy, I disagree. I love to push the grades. Not based on competition but based on seeing how far I can push my own abilities. Grades are a great way to measure my development. It's a personal thing, and I actually can't stand feelings of competition in climbing.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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This argument about chalk is just so, so old. I remember "purists" in Boulder complaining about the chalk mark in Eldo and on Flagstaff Mountain back in 1973 (?). Just don't think chalk is going to go away anytime soon. Besides, one good rain and it disappears.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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0ne good rain and it disappears.
If only. If ever there were a group think delusion of mythic proportions, this is it.
About the only place I'd possibly believe that is Devils Lake - nothing sticks to that sh#t.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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In the mid 1970's Larry Zulim and I would often go bouldering after work during the San Joaquin summer. With temperatures typically 100 degrees plus, we were sweating profusely on the drive as well as the hike. We could not climb in the sun without burning our hands, but even in the shade the boulders were very hot. They had been absorbing heat all day and needed half the night to cool off. The rock was hotter than the air.
There were some good hand jams, but inside the crack the heat was especially intense. At the base of a climb, we would cover each hand with a thick layer of chalk to momentarily dry the profuse sweat. Then we immediately climbed as fast as possible, inserting and retrieving our hands from the oven hot crack. Even a thick layer of chalk provided only a few seconds of dryness. Halfway up the crack but hopefully above the typical bulges, our hands would be dripping sweat again while the chalk was a slimy white mud. We could not stop to rechalk without sliming out of the cracks, so it was a one shot affair.
Now days, I generally don't use chalk, but might carry my bag more if I would use a chalk ball. If the weather is warm though, I will wish I had a chalk bag and then meekly beg to borrow one. I won't climb in 100 degree weather anymore. One of the nice side benefits of my brain transplant. The old brain overheated just too many times.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Warbler....I too am impressed to hear Grossman climbed without chalk (photo of him on GBG on Royal Arches Apron thread proves it). However, he did fall, as noted, on the climb. Would it have helped to have chock? Probably not as footwork seemed to be the issue. Rick A also fell there on FA but don't know if he had chalk or not. He, of course, had incredible footwork as well. Maybe modern rubber discussion for another day. You, yourself being a badass slab man may be able to comment.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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You don't have to use chalk to climb hard.
Spoken like a slab climber who has never done anything harder than 5.11 on anything steeper than vertical. Which is fine... I don't have to use chalk on warm ups either.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Mechrist,
What a bunch of horsesh#t. I'm just a duffer these days, but your position doesn't hold water. I'd love to see the reaction if you said that to Berndt Arnold's face!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Awesome... you comparing everyone else to Bernd Arnold. Personally I consider him WAY WAY WAY out of everyone elses league.
Sharma did 5.14 in flip flops... you don't need climbing shoes to climb hard.
Fred Nicole did a one pinky pull-up... you don't need hands to do pull ups.
pfft!
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RP3
Big Wall climber
El Portal/Chapel Hill
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I bet that the more someone bitches about chalk on the internet, the more they actually are sublimating their desire to be outside rock climbing (...and probably using chalk).
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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What struck me in those early years of chalk use (1950s) was that the debate frequently was between those whose hands tended to sweat a lot and those whose hands didn't sweat all that much.
I never met a gymnast who did not use chalk. But perhaps there are a few out there. As Rich has said going up the climbing rope in the gym was virtually impossible without chalking.
This argument has now been going on intermittently for close to 60 years.
;>)
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Harry Daley route on Monday Mornig Slab, I took umbrage
I took XTC, since umbrage is a gateway to Road Rage.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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I want post # 100. Did somebody bail? There it is.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Chalk is bad.
I use chalk.
I am bad.
My partners no use chalk.
They are good.
I am bad.
If I could do it all over again,
I'd do it chalkless.
I just wish my friggin' hands didn't sweat so much.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Eeyonkee, good one!!
Climbing 5.14 in sandals is a style issue. Doing one finger pull-ups is a style issue. Both are amazing, but have nothing to do with ethics. Chalk is an ethics issue because it has an environmental impact and a style issue because if you can do a given climb without it you have done it in better style than with it. Do what you want, but quit making sh#t up about it. Using chalk is still littering.
And, Berndt Arnold is still proof that you don't have to use chalk to climb hard.
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Byran
climber
Yosemite Valley, CA
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think chalk has much of an environmental impact. It's my understanding that the stuff is pretty benign, and it's used in relatively small quantities. What it has is a visual impact, as experienced by other human beings. Personally, I think a boulder field or crag covered in chalked holds looks great. It signifies that the routes are clean and well-traveled, not just a pile of choss and munge. Others obviously don't appreciate the aesthetics of chalked lines.
But I would say that it's a good idea to take it easy on the stuff in areas where there is a lot of non-climber traffic and it could possibly strain climber relations with land managers. I always cringe a little when I see the Yosemite Lower Falls Amphitheater caked with chalk in the fall.
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Chango
Trad climber
norcal
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All this chalk talk mock makin me knock back black bock
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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when did whining like a bitch about stupid sh#t like chalk become politically correct?
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S cole
Social climber
Urban hell
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My concern about those who don't use chalk is the nasty black rubber streaks left by the shoes of falling purists. Rubber is forever, you can scrub and scrub, but you will still have black marks. On some of the lesser types of stone, repeated attempts by chalkless purists can leave enough rubber that footholds are polished beyond belief.
On certain rock types, i.e. sandstones, chalk builds up quickly, while on real rock(granite)one rain and it's history. When I climb in an area where the local ethic precludes the use of chalk I leave the bag behind, although I find my self reaching for it all the time, but where it is accepted, I average a block a day.
I began as a purist myself. A dab of dirt from the base of a climb was plenty, and anyone who used it was a soulless monster. That was all good until I was unable to do the Bate's Problem on Columbia Boulder after many attempts. Someone had dropped a little nugget of Endo gold at the base. I crumbled the nug between my fingers, and sent the problem on my first try with chalk, I never looked back.
If its good enough for J.G, its good enough for me.
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harryhotdog
Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
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I can live with chalk, what I find distressing is tick marks of chalk to identify holds. Part of the enjoyment of climbing is figuring out the route as you climb, it's not suppose to be climbings version of paint by numbers. The use of chalk alone depending on the area still leaves some route finding to do as many false holds are chalked up too. The tick marks suck and should be removed after finishing the climb otherwise there is no such thing as an onsight! One alternative to chalk tick marks is called the brain, it's an amazing thing.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Chalk is an ethics issue because it has an environmental impact
No where near the environmental impact that simply being at the crag has. To reduce your environmental impact, I suggest YOU stay home and just mentally climb everything.
when did whining like a bitch about stupid sh#t like chalk become politically correct?
wurd
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Kind of like the bolting debate that goes nowhere. However, if one must use chalk Patrick Edlinger sure made using it look beautiful. http://utube.com/watch?v=2kxpYNwakOU&feature=related The most beautiful climber beautifully executing every single move right down to how he chalks his hands.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Cracks me up how it makes a lot of people chomp and stamp, foam at the mouth, the veins pop out and their face turn red when you bring up the issue, but chalk is trash. It is visual defacement of the rock. More in some places, less in others. Then all the diversionary and straw man arguments come out.
Doesn't mean I'm morally superior for not using it, doesn't mean I haven't use it a lot (to the elbows; loved those Strawberry Mountain bags), doesn't mean chalking isn't fun, doesn't mean I might not use a little some time in the future. But, it is littering and it is an environmental and possible access issue. And, other than a very circumscribed kind of use, is not good outdoor ethics.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Cracks me up that you assume others are chomping, stomping, and foaming just because they disagree with what you THINK is a valid argument against using chalk.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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That cracks me up!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Cracks me up how it makes a lot of people chomp and stamp, foam at the mouth, the veins pop out and their face turn red when you bring up the issue, but chalk is trash
Oh my . . . I didn't think it showed! I'm so embarrased.
;>)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Very nice sense of humor, Mr. Gill, but you most definitely fit in the more civil and reasonable category.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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"...most commercial gyms and fitness clubs ban the use of weightlifting chalk."
http://skinnybulkup.com/weight-lifting-chalk/
Two things: I've always been and always will be against using chalk on climbing routes. Boulders and smallish crags, I tend to ignore it, it's useless to rail.
I would shoot the first person I see with colored chalk. And piss on his grave. That's not gonna ever happen, right? Don't tell me.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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I was out of town and came back to (mostly) a thoughtful discussion of the subject. Yes, there were a few flames and barbs, but at least it wasn't about politics, guns or boobs :-) Sorry if I offended anyone for starting a thread about something that is, depending on your point of view, not so easy to hang on to. Cheers!
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ruppell
climber
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Thanks to jogill and Rgold for stepping up to the plate and giving the history of chalk use in climbing. I still have tons of respect for both of you chalkers. lol I'd like to leave this thread with a quote from Micheal Reardon that has stuck with me since the first time I heard it.
"Onsight, barefoot, chalkless, soloing is climbing. Everything else is a compromise."
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Chalk was ok.
However it gave me pause when I first saw someone with a toothbrush dangling from their tool belt scrubbing holds on the way up.
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J Q
Social climber
Boulder, Co
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If only. If ever there were a group think delusion of mythic proportions, this is it.
Yep, pretty much every "ethic" in climbing is a good example of group think reaching mythic proportions, including yours.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Chalk is only acceptable to climbers, to everyone else it is an eyesore.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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There is no limit to the human ability to rationalize (and yes, I include myself).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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These guys have a way of framing an argument persuasively.
1975 Chouinard Equipment catalog.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Bump for a bag of birdsh#t...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 26, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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When I first started climbinig in 1970 (high school), Phil Gleason and Phil Haney (Gill proteges) used to carry a block of chalk around in a tupperwear container. Richard Harrison and I got a ditty bag and cut a hole in it and strung it on a shoulder sling, and this moved to our waist, lashed there with hero loop (1/4 inch) webbing, and finally, accessory cord cinched with a square knot.
We were carrying those chalk bags on routes as early as 1971 out at Josh and up in Idyllwild. Bud Couch was also using a chalk bag at that time if I remember correctly. Owing to the dearth of climbers back then, the chalk build-up never got too grave save for places like Stony Point. And man, it got ugly out there!
I think there should be periodic efforts to clean that sh#t up.
JL
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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May 26, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
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Yep, I always do a bit of brushing when I'm out at Gunsmoke . . .
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 26, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
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The problem is not the chalk but too many climbers!!
;>)
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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May 26, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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Personally, I like it and think it should stay
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
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The problem with it is that, while climbers are quite homogeneous, rock types vary considerable. The result of chalk use on slick, white granite or the stuff at Devils Lake is one thing; on Southern sandstone it is quite another.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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May 27, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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One possible alternative is wood ash. It works very well, is closer to the rock in color, and may wash off easier. Plus it's free.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
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time to re-stir the pot ….. bump!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 17, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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Chalk has always been cool
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 17, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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After shitting on ropes for completely misguided reasons pretty much anything goes.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Feb 17, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
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It was Bridwell with that mid-70's photo of him leading Butterfingers. The dude was/is way cool!
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 17, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
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John Gill
In a post-Edlinger post chalk era. It's a flow thing.
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rockanice
climber
new york
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Feb 18, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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As a young kid in 1972 I climbed with Mark Birmingham in NY who denounced chalk use as a weakness. It was "white courage" and as I was the disciple, I diligently avoided it's use to emulate the master. However, much later, as the master was long gone (in Colorado), about ten years later, someone made me a present of a chalk bag in the Gunks, and I lost my soul. Even in recent years, I have still been chided by Mark for having been seduced. Yup, I'm weak, but gotta love that white courage, no turning back for this apostate
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Feb 18, 2016 - 01:12pm PT
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After Those Damned Americans® (Gib Lewis, Rick Accomazzo, and Robs Muir) did an early, fall-free repeat of the Great Wall on Clogwyn back in 1977, Ken Wilson—the Editor of Mountain Magazine—asked his first question of us:
"So, did you use chalk?"
"Sheesh. Of course not! One can't be doing the hard routes without it."
"Too bad. I could have made you stars!"
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 18, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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Perhaps the thread should have been titled how can climbers concede the oxymoron of their concern for protecting wilderness with slathering chalk over every hold of a route? Face it, heavily chalk slaked routes are ugly.
The reality is we're selfish and playing our climbing game is so important to us that we justify away lines of shiny bolt hangers and chalk slaked holds.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Feb 18, 2016 - 02:05pm PT
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Good story Dingus....
I don't use much chalk when its nice and 60 out BUT at Stoney in the dead of July.... cake it on.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 18, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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I find that it keeps your hands warmer in cold cracks when there is snow on the ground....
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 18, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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The new Jtree guide has a Metolius Super Chalk ad in it with some dude climbing on a completely chalked up mess of a rock. I found it to be in very poor taste.
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Feb 18, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
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Chalk is one thing
Chalk tic marks is another thing, please don't leave them
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 18, 2016 - 11:28pm PT
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You guys are so immaculate, the devil doesn't even waste his time a tempting.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 19, 2016 - 12:48am PT
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Like all white powders, Sugar, Cocain & Chalk....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2016 - 12:59am PT
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The only time I've used it is in the Valley - didn't and don't really see the problem with it up on big white stone walls as opposed to what it does in places like the NRG and RRG where it both blights the rock and turns everything into a mindless climb-by-the-dots exercise.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 19, 2016 - 01:24am PT
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^ ^^ ^
That is so right on ! Even in that humidity, it is not needed to the extent it is used. . , it has all but ruined the place. Follow the dots.... Bull shjt sends....
I was in the Red, decades before the place turned into an out door gym... Good morning J
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 19, 2016 - 07:39am PT
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I read that in the 1960's Chuck Pratt confirmed that the Yosemite climbers would chafe their hands against the rock, to enable them to friction up vertical walls.
At no time was chalk mentioned in that discussion.
End of an era, man.
Maybe someone should invent pigmented chalk, like that Revlon stuff women put on their faces. Climbers could select an appropriate shade, for an all-natural look.
But, some WILD younguns would come up with day-glo colors, just to shock the old fogies, and the situation would go downhill from there.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Feb 19, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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I've always lived by the rule that " the key to success is heavy pre- chalking."
And who, but a few extremists, ever thought chalk was incorrect?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 19, 2016 - 08:16am PT
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Maybe someone should invent pigmented chalk, like that Revlon stuff women put on their faces. Climbers could select an appropriate shade, for an all-natural look.
Didn't work, in any of the many times this has been tried in the last forty odd years.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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From Climbing May/June 1982.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 19, 2016 - 08:30am PT
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In the olden days climbers in the Phaltz used dirt...
Did anyone ever try 'decomposed' or fine powdered granite?
it was around for a milli-second...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 19, 2016 - 08:46am PT
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chalk is the ultimate expression of climber beauty
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 19, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
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"Most rocks look better with chalk on them" - Dick Cilley
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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Except they don't (unless, of course, you need it chalked up to know what you're doing)...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 19, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
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Boogers on the Politically Hip!
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 19, 2016 - 08:56pm PT
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Prior to chalk, climbers at the Jenny Lake boulders in the Tetons would pat their hands in the forest duff. I watched Pownall and Emerson do just that. At about this time, in the SD Needles, Herb and Jan Conn would knock yellow pine dust out of pine cones and use that to keep their hands dry.
Find an apparatus gymnast anywhere who doesn't use chalk and report back, please.
If your hands stay dry you don't need the stuff. If not, perhaps you do to level the playing field . . . like the Colt .45 in the west of the 1800s.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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Or like a really unwelcome graffiti
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Feb 20, 2016 - 12:08am PT
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Gill himself has to dole out the 411.
Who here hasn't read
Master of Rock ?
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Feb 20, 2016 - 06:09am PT
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Herb and Jan Conn would knock yellow pine dust out of pine cones and use that to keep their hands dry.
I was climbing with the Bird one time we were at Hemingway buttress doing that 10 something that is next to overseer.
we had a top rope on it and Jim started telling us about his trick to make sticky rubber stickier.
he walked over to a stunted pine tree and found some pine sap and came back and started meticulously rubbing it into the sweet spot on his shoes, rubbing and rubbing until they actually stuck together by themselves.
he shoes up, ties in, takes one step off the ground and pops.
we of course started rolling and the look on his face was priceless
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KlimbIn
climber
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Feb 20, 2016 - 08:23am PT
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This is a route description from an actual printed guidebook:
"challenging route for the grade largely because all of the chalk is regularly washed away".
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Feb 20, 2016 - 08:32am PT
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yes
I've always lived by the rule that " the key to success is heavy pre- chalking."
And who, but a few extremists, ever thought chalk was incorrect?
RV
Pre John Bachar waist chalk belt
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