Jack Roberts and the Fall

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 61 - 73 of total 73 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Mar 6, 2013 - 10:22am PT
RDB,

Nice piece about your friend, I knew Jack very little. He bummed a shower at my house in JT, and we talked only a few times after.

I did about 8 years on SAR in the Valley, and every accident was a strange brew of things going wrong. Often it took us days to figure out why things happened.

You didn't do anything wrong, in fact it seems you did everything right. Your guide skills and rescue skills seemed spot on.

I'm curious about the tethers however, as I have taken many daisy falls and have always been stopped. Maybe there is something to be learned from all this.

Sorry about your loss, and for Jack's death, he was a great man of the mountains, and lead a fine life.
fosburg

climber
Mar 6, 2013 - 10:34am PT
I seem to be the only one I know who still carries a third tool. My current setup is Nomics without tethers and a Grivel mini-monster children's tool as a backup. It helps me feel more relaxed.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Thanks Coz. Not me with Jack when he died, but Jonathon. Sorry for the confusion.

Tethers? Ethics? Style?

Jack and I had that discussion a couple of times. I was actually shocked that he had just recently started using tethers. I've been using them all the way back to Terrodactyls. Just made sense to me on steep ice early on and the inability to put in good pro quickly. Now? It is a safety issue imo.

Having snapped the head off a tool in the middle of soloing a steep ice pitch with no 3rd tool...I know that feeling. It wasn't until the late '90s that I gave that habit up. I don't see the best of the modern tools break very often these days. So it doesn't seem like much of a risk to carry just 2. If you climb on the brand that has a current or receent history of failures? Get a clue and a third tool :)

Better style to climb leashless and no tether? Sure it is. Better style to climb leashless and ropeless as well.

I like to solo on ice. But I like to use tethers:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 6, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
hey there say, pam...

thank you for sharing your lovely story here...

thank you too for werner stepping in, as to his experience in such things...


also:
as to losing consciousness and not remembering...
mini seizures can do that... they are far more comment than folks
understand... folks that NEVER had a history of any kind of seizure can have that happen, and they are too tiny to ever discover by looking at the brain... there intesity has to grow over time, until activity is seen...

and of course, the other note:
mini strokes, exist as possiblities, out in the world, as well...

though those can be detected better, later...


both would cause not remembering or knowing, what happened or how one fell...

the only needed note on that, if either was the case, is:
it is nice to know that someone like jack WAS doing his very best,
and shining in fine style and safety...
and went down by a matter that could just not be helped at said moment...




ps:

wow pam,as to this... more crying for us senstive folks:
A interesting dog note. Any time I go through Jack's stuff, either to reorganize, or box up, or whatever, Pisco gets REALLY upset. His ears go flat, and he looks at me with these super sad eyes that say, "where did he go, and what did you do with him, and why doesn't he come back?" Then he lets his tail hang and goes immediately to the bedroom and lays under the bed. Our furry friends grieve, too............
pam


*if you ever wanted a quilt done, too, just email me...
perhaps even for the ol' pupdog...


RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Hey neebee..quick question for you or someone else reading may know.

Would a mini seizure allow one to keep both their tools firmly in hand during a long fall?

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 7, 2013 - 10:31am PT
hey there say, RDB... i will do some checks on that...

when my grandbabe had hers, (though hers were not mini) her fist grip
tightened up... she had two fist shapes, each hand...

the muscle contract, *depending on the type of seizures)...

but--i will check on this...
after a LARGE seizure, though, when the body had finished and completely
goes limp (they look like they are dead, sometimes) the
hand may fall open...

edit: there are some partial complex seizures, where a person will have one, and actually walk OUT of stores, carrying things and NOT even
know that they are having a seizure... (folks think they are stealing, and or, drunk, etc)...

i do not know, as to the mini seizures, they are so MICRO split
second... a person CAN have one right in front of you
and YOU will not even know it...


you will THINK that they just were 'off in thought' for a split
second, or any etc...


be back soon, i don't want to put out any false info, so
will find more on the mini-seizures...


this is what is so dangerous about them...


a young boy, in this area, years back, just keeled over into the water, right in front of his friend, when fishing...

there were nearby boats of folks that witnessed it, so they know there was not foul play... his friend tried to find him and get him out...
by the time they did, he had drowned...


after an autopsey they (in his case) had found that he had been having seizure activity for a long time...
his folks said they never saw him have any kind of seizure, but:
they were thinking of the full blown, or more commonly seen ones...


they did say a few times they thought he was not paying attention to something, but those again, were split second things, and, as we all know,
we ALL DO THAT... the difference though, with a seizure the PERSON will not remember or know that they were NOT paying attention, whereas,
those just 'fast day dreaming' or pre-occupied or etc, WILL have
heard what is going on, and will know that they intentionally
were tuning things out...


RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 11:02am PT
"when my grandbabe had hers, (though hers were not mini) her fist grip
tightened up... she had two fist shapes, each hand..."

Pam and Jonathon have heard this all from me previous. So no surprises here. Thanks for the thought. I'm obviously just looking for some answers we'll never have.

But 60'+ of air time and a not so soft catch with a tweaked knee, and still holding onto both tools?

The "off" mentally and two "tight fists" make perfect sense to me. I was convinced the first time around. I also think Jack had a clue...but not fully aware of the circumstance/ health situation hence the recent adoption of umbilicals.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:03am PT
The possibility of a medical condition is interesting. I have heard about the "healthy person" seizure before. The figure quoted was 1 in a 100 otherwise healthy people will have this at some point in their lives (good point to think about before you solo). Maybe a doctor can post up about this.
Why did John Bachar fall? Maybe it was related to his neck issues? Just like with Jack we will never know.

Jack sounds like he was quite a guy.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 11:09am PT
It does indeed make one rethink soloing @ past 50.

And trust me...never trust the medical community to know you...as well as YOU, know you.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:12am PT
hey there say, RDB....

not saying this is the reason, of course...

just sharing the info, for folks to just have an understanding what
seizures are, etc, do, and all that...


it might help other mysteries, as to when folks have something
happen, and can't remember WHAT or WHY, something happened...

keep a look-out, too, if this happens a lot in your family, or friend
circles:
THERE are more than 40types of seizures among these
main guidelines (so the epilepsy ontario, site says--those some folks
say, there is even more variety in this, as well)




HERE YOU GO:
these last about 2-10 seconds, the person does not remember:

http://epilepsyontario.org/absence-seizures/



these last about 2-10 seconds,
some folks say they don't remember these,
but many others, DO... :

http://epilepsyontario.org/simple-partial-seizures/




THESE folks do NOT remember, they last about
__2-4 min, with 'groggy dazed after affects
and confusion':__

http://epilepsyontario.org/complex-partial-seizures/

*these can later lead to grand mal (clonic tonic)



THIS one, in this case, does not sound it would have applied
at all--but is good to know about, for all of us:

http://epilepsyontario.org/tonic-clonic-seizures/
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:22am PT
hey there say, yeah, RDB ... one can just try to put puzzle pieces together for our loved ones....

there are thousands of folks having seizures, that never know, until a full blown has built up...

this type of situation, though, is only discovered after years of noticing behavior changes, as it progresses...
(and habits that are listed on the links)...

or--when someone falls...



also, if it had been a seizure then??
perhaps??(would have to ask EXPERTS on this) once it has
passed, the BODY FEELING itself fall, AT THAT POINT???
may very well go into the normal mode of what jack did when he fell...
even if confused...

grasp tools, etc, ... but these are just among all the
various guesses, to help you all...

:)


take a READ on some of these links and see if you
witnessed anything similar...

that may help...
the fact that he did NOT know what happened, is what got me
to THINK on the seizure line... (or mini stroke, another angle entirely)

god bless to you, :)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 7, 2013 - 11:26am PT
hey there say, AP...

also, good not to go swimming or fishing, alone, as well...
these are FAR more common than folks realize...

car accidents, too, have been linked to folks that did not know
they had seizure activity...
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 22, 2013 - 06:41pm PT

Rick Accomazzo wrote a wonderful memorial to Jack in
the 2013 American Alpine Journal.

Thanks, Rick.
Messages 61 - 73 of total 73 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews