Chipping culprit filmed in NY


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donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
DROPLINE “More like the former is the human embodiment of the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars, while the latter is lost in space somewhere the other side of Altair 3.”

OK, I will try and be clearer, apparently English is not understood here. RGOLD starts out with “Mostly, Donald's points are moot, even when they are marginally coherent. (For an example of the more pervasive incoherence, he singles Bragg and Barber out for hypocrisy even though neither of them has said a word about the current situation.)”

OK, here is WHERE I am the “MOST incoherent” according to RGold. If he is wrong here he should be wrong everywhere else. Why? Well, let’s read it again. RGold: “an example of the more pervasive incoherence”. So if we are to follow RGold’s reasoning, if I cannot deal with this, then why should I continue to post anything. Does that make sense yet? I can go over it some more if you think it doesn’t. Let me know, OK?

Now we can talk about WHAT is the “more pervasive incoherence” according to RGold. What is RGOLD’s point? His point is that Bragg and Barber have been singled out for ridicule. RGold writes “he singles Bragg and Barber out for hypocrisy”. OK, let’s go over that again one more time, what did I do again? I attacked Bragg and Barber for their hypocrisy. Got it? Are we clear on the accusation yet? Do I need to repeat it or not? Let me know, OK? I am really starting to get a sense that I am wasting my time here, but I will go on anyway.

Now we can talk about HOW I singled out Bragg and Barber for their hypocrisy. We shall go where to do this? Well, my letter of opinion of course, that makes sense, right? So let us take a look at it, and read it for the first time, CLEARLY. I wrote: From Don: “My point is that the NY Shawangunks climbing community started out with Henry Barber and John Bragg [2. See Yankee Rock and Ice] who developed higher standards than anywhere else on the planet, and then dropped the ball when Bragg left…”

Who am I talking about here Dropline?, Bragg and Barber or the climbing community? English, … do you speak it? What is the subject and what is the object of this sentence? The subject is “the NY Shawangunks climbing community started out with”. The object is “Bragg and Barber”. OK, who “left” in my sentence? Was it the “NY Shawangunks climbing community” or “Bragg and Barber”? I said they “dropped the ball when Bragg left”. I said Barber and Bragg left, and then went on to talk about the end result.

Now we can talk about HISTORY, to see if I may have failed here, if they did in fact leave the ethical climbing scene by the 1980’s. Yet this is IRRELEVANT because I have already established what the sentence can and can’t mean. Both you and RGold have yet to deal with my argument or the English language yet, and are talking about something else throughout. Here I am only strengthening my previous argument, that they left, that they were in fact not responsible. Both you and Mr. RGold are attempting to show that I am saying the very opposite of the thing I just proved that I did and did not say. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Yankee Rock & Ice A History of Climbing in the NORTHEASTER United States.

Page 224: “After 1972 Barber widened his theater of operations until it took in the whole planet … Perhaps even more significant was his influence on climbing ethics and style. Following the lead of John Stannard and Steve Wunch, he became an uncompromising proponent of free climbing, disdaining any form of aid. As the region’s most prominent superclimber, he powerfully pulled an entire generation of climbers in the direction of high standards of ethics and style … This celebrity’s public career received a severe jolt from an incident on Africa’s Kilimanjaro … In a short space of time space of time Barber went from being the darling of the climbing world to object of scorn in the eyes of many critics. … His impact on climbing standards was therefore probably greater than anyone’s. One of his contemporaries went so far as to say that Barber had “a greater influence than any climber who ever lived,” obviously a judgment difficult to defend, but which was based on the observation that Barber came alone at a time when standards were ready to rise (to catch up with the Shawangunks), so when he showed the way, everyone came along. Once everyone caught up to his level, further progress inevitably slowed, making Barber perhaps “the last great name in North American rock climbing,” to cite another contemporary judgment … no one will ever stand out ahead of the pack nor raise and entire region’s sights so dramatically as did Henry Barber in 1972.

Page 295 “ … the year 1980 saw northeastern climbers question where the future of the sport lay. Nothing significantly harder had been achieved since Bragg’s Kansas City and Wunch’s Supercrack. Indeed, few routes even that hard had been done since Wunsch and Stannard had ceased pushing the standards in 1972 … [the] impressive achievements of 1978-1980 still failed to advance the standards of the Stanard-Bragg-Wunch-Barber era of the first half of the 1970’s. ”

After Barber left, Bragg was a strong influence directly over the area in the 70’s. He said in one instance, Page 234 “If someone did that at the Gunks [speaking of North Conway 70’s bolting], they’d be lynched.”.

From a Richard Goldstone post “As many of you know, John was among the pioneers in the free-climbing revolution in the US in the late 1970's, with a long list of hard free climbs in the Gunks, Eldorado Canyon, and Yosemite.

He made first free ascents in the Gunks of Yellow Wall, Enduroman, and Kansas City, as well as adding the new routes Gravity's Rainbow and Iron Cross. He did Mellow Yellow and Cinch Crack in Eldorado Canyon, and Enema Crack and Orangutan Arch in Yosemite.

Many of John's routes were among the first 5.12 routes in the US, and climbers are only beginning to realize how hard Iron Cross is. Perhaps 5.13, it is only recently being repeated on the lead, so far with pre-placed protection, which Bragg did not use.

John was also part of the first generation of American climbers who simultaneously climbed at the highest standards on ice as well as on rock. His first ascents on ice include Repentance, The Fang, and The Power of Positive Thinking.”

From “The Return of John Bragg Most revolutions are delivered by armies of men. This one was delivered by four, The Front Four: John Stannard, Henry Barber, Steve Wunsch, and John Bragg. The Front Four were so far ahead of other climbers in the early 70's that other climbers began claiming "First Human Ascents" when they did something "first", after one of the Four. In the mid 1980's, John disappeared from the climbing scene … “.

The Gunks Guide, Todd Swain, Page 114: “The Zone 5.13- R FA P1 Jeff Gruenberg, Jack Meleski, Spring, 1986; P2 Jack Meleski Jeff Gruenberg, Fall, 1986“

Here is a movie onto it, great movie, the chiseled hold is just out of sight over the lip.

From the TS Guide book: While this rout's crux is on Twilight Zone, the majority of the climb is an independent line. A tremendous amount of work went into this including "improving" holds and the placement of a bolt Starting on the GT ledge. … The second pitch is called The French Connection (aka Jackhammered). From the belay, traverse straight right … then over the roof at a fingerlock (crux, fingerlock chiseled out to "improve" it) to the top (5.12+G).


Mar 1, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
then why should I continue to post anything

You shouldn't.

I am really starting to get a sense that I am wasting my time here

You are.

have yet to deal with my argument

Why would anyone bother.

Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
Mar 1, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Red Swami wrote:
Hagerty are you the guy from Grizzly Adams? :-)

No I'm not Donald Perry.

Well, I might be kinda grizzly at this point, but no, not him. Just a long time Gunkie from way back. That would be a hoot! Needed to come up with a forum name some years ago and somehow Hagerty stuck. Not really sure how or why.

Yeah, the cross posting of the photos and Donald's schizoid personality raised the question. Obviously he snagged your photos to make whatever point he's trying to make over on, although it now seems he's just arguing over anything for the sake and questionable joy of arguing. The man has a seriously impaired gibberish and drivel filter.

Trad climber
pike co
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
more of A gibberish- drivel generator IMO
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Mar 1, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
WBraun you wrote “ donald perry = stupid American “It looks to me like he could have just pulled it off under body weight.” Then he would not have needed to smash and chisel forever as was evident in the video. But since you have no good brain you will just keep on trucking with your nice illusion ...”


What you are saying here in this sentence is the same as to say you could feel comfortable advising a rescue where, if someone could get some wire around that flake, or some thin webbing left over from a Black Diamond porta-ledge perhaps, all would be safe and sound. If this is the case, than don’t lecture me about “a no good brain”.

“LOL” you may be wrong, you may in fact be reckless. First of all, he is hammering up to crack the thing in half, which makes a big difference. You can’t accomplish much hammering up if you want to remove something. If he wanted to break off the flake entirely all he would have needed to do was insert his chisel between the rock and the flake and hit it once. Apparently that likely was not his first intention, that’s obvious, he is doing something else to leave the flake and only crack it somewhere.

I have hammered off 100’s of 1000’s of cubic feet of gunite, either attached partially or fully to steel or other surfaces with hand tools and jack hammers. With chisels and lump hammers. What can happen sometimes when you beat on a slab is … nothing. So, by only watching what’s going on here in the video, this is in fact a very poor way to judge how strong the end of the fake was. Again, if you really want to apply pressure and remove the fake economically you need to get under it. Otherwise a demolition job, with a gunite lining will go bankrupt.

Furthermore, you can tell from the shot that it is a long way off, and the perspective is poor. Is this how you want me to gauge reality, through a distorted lens? Why do I need to have no brain because I am reserved? Maybe he inserted some epoxy in their first before he hammered on it and it is providing a cushion absorbing the blows. There is epoxy there in the video. I am not going to agree with you about anything solid thorough a telescopic video, that’s not good judgment.


Mar 1, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Maybe he can help me out with this one,
Credit: kennyt
the overhanging section needs some creative cleaning!!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
whack his pee pee

~ author unknown.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
There is no reason to chip holds, just pad-stack every problem so that all you need is a single move mantel out.

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 1, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
kenny, I won't "creatively clean it" but I'd love to have a closer look! Surely at least a lip traverse will go.

Mar 1, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Wes, let me know when you want to come out it's in woodfords canyon. that's one of many

Social climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
sweet choss broski, lets get a few other boys and we can have a circle jerk under it, I'll bring the dubstep and a heater!

Gold Canyon, AZ
Mar 1, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
...I am really starting to get a sense that I am wasting my time here...

Why? Just because everybody has given up on reason and begun laughing at you?


Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 1, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've been there. Hiked in from some scruffy cliffs just up canyon. Seemed like a day of problems if you were psyched. I was psyched when I saw that... until I scoped the (lack of) grips. It might warrant another look... with our new perspective and all...

Come to think of it, I'm pretty out of hiking shape and I think it would take me all day to get back to it. Remind me though... is it like low double digits, or like v20?

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 1, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Some nice gossip and mostly meaningless discussion about the Gunks......nice counterpoint to the same Yosemitecentric gossip and mostly meaningless discussion repeated here ad nauseum.

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Mar 1, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Jim makes a good point. Eastern nonsense is poorly represented here. For some reason, Supertopo seem to prefer Western absurdities. But too much of the same diet can be debilitating, and so I'm glad if, even in some small way, I can contribute to the diversification of incoherence so necessary for a balanced internet dialog.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Mar 1, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
This sh#t is awesome, it reminds of some of the BS issues that first attracted me to climbing

Yeah, its real life drama, like a reality show where any one of us can call the other guy out for being a retard. It gets a little out of control sometimes, but if there was no one like Donald (and Patrick) stepping up to the plate and taking on everyone else, how boring would it be?

To be honest, if they put in a new Walmart at the hairpin turn and excavated and dynamited the entire Trapps, my life would go on. But these little soap operas will get me to pay attention.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
Mar 1, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
... meaningless discussion repeated here ad nauseum.
If we are so nauseating, then why waste your time?

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
A moo point. It's like a Cow's opinion. Just doesn't matter.

It's moo.

patrick compton

Trad climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 06:13am PT
but if there was no one like Donald (and Patrick) stepping up to the plate and taking on everyone else, how boring would it be?

At least someone gets it. I never debated this incident specifically, but rock modification as a whole spectrum that starts with chalk, cleaning lichen, anchors, bolts, permadraws, ticks... a non-climber a photo of the madness cave then show them the Ivan video and ask which has more impact. the 'ethics' are in our heads.

Really, my main problem is with this new public shaming concept. I think it sucks and is bad for the sport. I am not buying that DPM tried everything they could do to talk to Ivan and this was a last resort. I suspect there are some personal issues with Ivan that aren't being brought to light.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Mar 2, 2013 - 07:22am PT

For the purpose of land preservation and stewardship we all who have this interest and intent here now as members of this community ask all too now come together in this. Please submit here, for the names of any climbs or boulder problems you may know of that have been Chipped, Chopped, or Bolted, the names of the people who have chipped them, the date, and their exact location for this. Please provide photographic evidence if you can. You can email me directly [1.]. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.


Chipped Climbs.

1978 Lost World 5.11,
Donald Perry Chipped hold under 1st Pitch 5.9 Roof used for protection.

1980's Gill Egg,
Painted and chipped by vandals. The first hold used to be a lot better.

1986 The Zone 5.13-
Jeff Gruenberg, Jack Meleski 2nd Pitch The French Connection 5.12+ Jack Meleski, Jeff Gruenberg. Chipped and manufactured bucket just over lip on overhang. Previously only a thin seam with a insignificant 1/4” crescent edge over the top of it. The previous formation was part of a bar of rock that has been snapped off, and can be made out shadowed on the wall as darker rock.

1990's Gill's Double Clutch Direct
Chipped by two men learning to aid climb for Yosemite.

1990's Gill Problem left of Katzenjammer
Small rock in crack that would never have come out.

Bolted or Chopped Climbs.

1955 Dry Martini 5.7
Hans Kraus, Bonnie Prudden, Lucien Warner

1959 Turdland 5.9+
Jim McCarthy, Jack Hansen

1959 Wonderland 5.8-
Art Gran, Eric Stern

1959 Never Never Land 5.10-
Dave Craft, Jim McCarthy, Art Grand

1960 Arrow Willie 5.8
Crowther Gardiner Perry

1963 Phoebe 5.10+
Dick Williams

1963 Squiggles Direct 5.10
Dick Williams, John Hudson

1956 Thin Slabs 5.7-
Art Grand, John Wharton, Bob Chambers

1964 Sente 5.8+
Wille Crowther

1966 Yellow Wall
Dick Williams, Ants Leemets

1968 Blackout 5.9
Dick Williams Dave Craft Dick DuMais Bolt over roof.

1970 Scary Area 5.12
Dick Williams? Same make as the bolt on Phoebe. The bolt was placed by an eerily party who set out to free it. Previously, Roy Kligfield and Dave Ingalls had done it with NO bolts in 1969.

1971 J'accuse (bolt chopped) 5.10
Patrick Cordier, Jim McCarthy

1973 Keep On Struttin' 5.9+
Dave Loeks, Walter Baumann

1978 Scary Area 5.12
Donald Perry drilled two slots for the passive use of crackinups.

1978 Scary Area 5.15
John Bragg, Mark Robinson. One new bolt added as a reaction to Donald Perry’s complaints, who were the members of the 1st free ascent party, due to the fact that the climb is deceptive and was a death trap and the bolt now there was questionable.

1978 Beer And Loathing 5.11-
Dave Loeks and Dick Williams. Three bolts placed on aid. This was done after a no bolt ethic had been adopted by property owners and the climbing community.

1986 Pumping Pygmies 5.13
Al Diamond, Russ Clune. This was done after a no bolt ethic had been adopted by property owners and the climbing community.

1986 Pumping Pygmies 5.13
Chopped by? Bolt chopped and pin removed a couple of days after placement on rappel. No free ascent. This was done after a no chop ethic had been adopted by property owners and the climbing community.

1986 The Zone 5.13-
Jeff Gruenberg, Jack Meleski This was done after a no bolt ethic had been adopted by property owners and the climbing community.

Repaired Climbs.

1978 Lost World 5.11,
Donald Perry. Slot was repaired with material similar in color to the rock.

1978 Scary Area 5.12
Donald Perry. The two holes filled with conglomerate material, which even today are very difficult to find. History: RR was not able to find them.


[1.] Because does not have a format for privately re-editing posts this list cannot be copied but will remain exclusively and current only on

[2.] Soon to be edited.

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