Chipping culprit filmed in NY

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The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 24, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Does any climber anywhere know of a case where altering of holds specifically has created adverse effects on climbing access by land managers?

I repeatedly hear this come up in arguments against chipping, but know of no examples of it.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
repeatedly hear this come up in arguments against chipping, but know of no examples of it.

We should ALL work together as a community to keep it that way. Shaming within the community may be the only way with some of the perps.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Hey Scott,

This jogged my memory of those days.....which isn't an easy thing to do considering the excessive amounts of high grade marijuana I was burning through at the time.

I remember I freed a line in the Valley and Bachar could not do the move, he beat on the grainy pocket with the end of his tooth brush till he could get the hold to work.

I believe it was on a route at Reeds if I'm not mistaken. i never was on the route so I can only say what I remember hearing, but wasn't the hold you speak of more of a pain tolerance thing? One pad splitting Pirahna tooth crystal in the interior of the pocket. I'm not saying that this makes what John did acceptable, (especially if it changed the grade) because even comfortizing can be a slippery slope, but if what John did with his toothbrush was chipping, then what Ivan is doing in the video is chipping times a hundred.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
So obviously it wasn't anything like what Ivan is accused of.

Dude, wake up! Accused of?!?! Stop obfuscating the issue... watch the fuqin video again. It don't matter who done it or when, it is blatant chipping and not even close to "cleaning."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
If I'm banging a rock with a hammer and chisel to create holds so I can climb a boulder... feel free to judge the sh#t out of me.
Guernica

climber
right there, right then
Feb 24, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Dingus:

"Some climbers use the wording Ethical in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.


Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical."

Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that ethics isn't quite as ambiguous as you say. It refers to the *ethos* governing the behavior of a particular community. Which makes this pretty cut-and-dried. If chipping, or whatever, is contrary to the prevailing spirit of the community it is by definition unethical.

Morality is a trickier concept, but not what we're talking about here.

So yes, this is unethical.

edit: how do you make the little box-thing to indicate someone else's quote?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Guernica,

Oh yes, people have their systems of ethics or religions if you Will and you can study them. But should you study some philosophy on ethics you will find two things:

1. None of them are consistent.

2. There are no ethical "oughts" or said in another way "...from purely a priori grounds" i.e. you have to choose as to how you want to the world to act.

For an easy but long winded take on this CF: Questions of Value Patrick Grimm, The Teaching Company.

Yes, superficially the one system you like seems good to you but all have serious failings. And this allows you to say that those not doing things the way you think is ethical is unethical. Ethics is CRAP.

To edit in quotes use an item (tool) from the blue line above the text entering box.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
None of them are consistent.

Maybe you can set me straight... teach me something...

But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.

As is damaging/stealing the property of others for personal benefit.


Funny because I remember a party where I jokingly said "there is no wrong, there is no right... only pleasure and pain" quoting Jane's Addiction... which set Prof. Ramsey into a 30+ min lecture that included female genital mutilation and rape. I was pretty drunk and my dad was busy kicking the bucket 5 hours away, but I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.
ruppell

climber
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.

There is. Society creates them. We climbers create our values. As climbers we think chipping is wrong(at least most of us). So there is a wrong and there is a right. In this case Ivan is plain wrong. If it was even close to a 40/60 percent way of thinking then you could use other arguements to bolster that it might have been right. Fact is that in most climbers eyes it's not right. So the debating that needs to be done here isn't whether it's acceptable or unacceptable. We just need to figure out the punishment for said crime. I'm pretty sure the public humiliation will suffice is this case. I wonder if his lawyer is gonna release that statement this year? LOL
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
"ethics" may be too strong a word but its the word we use. Don't damage anything, because it doesnt belong to you and other people have the right to enjoy it without all your bolts, chisel scars and glue. It's not like you're going up Mt Everest walking by all these dying people, that's real ethics, but you're still damaging something that's been in a natural state for millions of years. It's a good ethic but nothing compared to blasting away the side of a mountain to put in a highway, or for that matter, whoever built highway 120 damaged a lot of pristine wilderness and then opened the floodgates to tourism. I think you probably have a bigger impact on the environment in other ways, ie from the products you buy, garbage you make etc.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:05am PT
Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:54am PT
Wow, he has some kind of Tlingit tattoo on his back? So spiritual dude.


My Indian friend weeps.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:57am PT
"if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago"
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:01am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jqR4MkYgGM
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:03am PT
interesting side note: some of the hardest routes (listed in the guidebook) at the gunks were chipped

http://books.google.com/books?id=9-npVkicu9wC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=was+gunks+twilight+zone+chiseled&source=bl&ots=bWOTYIibUC&sig=unJ5JKU_OBui1azYk0ikQfhUUqk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l_onUcSoEous8ATgw4HgCw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=was%20gunks%20twilight%20zone%20chiseled&f=false
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:17am PT

But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.

Unless you are cheney and Halliburton, then you can do it with taxpayer funding.

Dingus McGee,

Don't try to explain relativism and reason to this crowd, These are types that pound pitons with a hammers on desert vertical towers while tourists at the base while complaining about a random chossy boulder in the woods in NY. They do the Nose, but ignore the fact that it would go if it hadn't been chipped.

But hey, all climbing 'ethics' are local, right? Unless it is a crappy video, released by a half-rate mag tying to claw it's way up by being the new People magazine of the climbing world (Ivan EXPOSED), then then we can make universal assumptions and start flinging virtual interweb poo.
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:20am PT
climbers are a sanctimonious lot?

no way!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:30am PT
merchrist,

Learn the difference between morality and ethics. Morality has to do with when to kill, an entirely different matter than when to chisel.

patrick compton gets it right when he says, "... ethics are local." Climbing eithixs tries to regulate the almost intangibles yet ignores the obvious shades of its ingnorance.

GET THIS STRAIGHT: The filmed chiseler has climbing ethics BUT they are different than what some of you rant about.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:56am PT
Always good to know who's lost all perspective along with Ivan.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.

Ha, awesome.

Say what you will about Ivan Greene but after watching a few of his vids posted here he is undoubtedly a self absorbed knob of the highest order.
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