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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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repeatedly hear this come up in arguments against chipping, but know of no examples of it.
We should ALL work together as a community to keep it that way. Shaming within the community may be the only way with some of the perps.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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Hey Scott,
This jogged my memory of those days.....which isn't an easy thing to do considering the excessive amounts of high grade marijuana I was burning through at the time.
I remember I freed a line in the Valley and Bachar could not do the move, he beat on the grainy pocket with the end of his tooth brush till he could get the hold to work.
I believe it was on a route at Reeds if I'm not mistaken. i never was on the route so I can only say what I remember hearing, but wasn't the hold you speak of more of a pain tolerance thing? One pad splitting Pirahna tooth crystal in the interior of the pocket. I'm not saying that this makes what John did acceptable, (especially if it changed the grade) because even comfortizing can be a slippery slope, but if what John did with his toothbrush was chipping, then what Ivan is doing in the video is chipping times a hundred.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 24, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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So obviously it wasn't anything like what Ivan is accused of.
Dude, wake up! Accused of?!?! Stop obfuscating the issue... watch the fuqin video again. It don't matter who done it or when, it is blatant chipping and not even close to "cleaning."
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 24, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
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If I'm banging a rock with a hammer and chisel to create holds so I can climb a boulder... feel free to judge the sh#t out of me.
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Guernica
climber
right there, right then
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Feb 24, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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Dingus:
"Some climbers use the wording Ethical in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.
Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical."
Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that ethics isn't quite as ambiguous as you say. It refers to the *ethos* governing the behavior of a particular community. Which makes this pretty cut-and-dried. If chipping, or whatever, is contrary to the prevailing spirit of the community it is by definition unethical.
Morality is a trickier concept, but not what we're talking about here.
So yes, this is unethical.
edit: how do you make the little box-thing to indicate someone else's quote?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Guernica,
Oh yes, people have their systems of ethics or religions if you Will and you can study them. But should you study some philosophy on ethics you will find two things:
1. None of them are consistent.
2. There are no ethical "oughts" or said in another way "...from purely a priori grounds" i.e. you have to choose as to how you want to the world to act.
For an easy but long winded take on this CF: Questions of Value Patrick Grimm, The Teaching Company.
Yes, superficially the one system you like seems good to you but all have serious failings. And this allows you to say that those not doing things the way you think is ethical is unethical. Ethics is CRAP.
To edit in quotes use an item (tool) from the blue line above the text entering box.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
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None of them are consistent.
Maybe you can set me straight... teach me something...
But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.
As is damaging/stealing the property of others for personal benefit.
Funny because I remember a party where I jokingly said "there is no wrong, there is no right... only pleasure and pain" quoting Jane's Addiction... which set Prof. Ramsey into a 30+ min lecture that included female genital mutilation and rape. I was pretty drunk and my dad was busy kicking the bucket 5 hours away, but I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.
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ruppell
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.
There is. Society creates them. We climbers create our values. As climbers we think chipping is wrong(at least most of us). So there is a wrong and there is a right. In this case Ivan is plain wrong. If it was even close to a 40/60 percent way of thinking then you could use other arguements to bolster that it might have been right. Fact is that in most climbers eyes it's not right. So the debating that needs to be done here isn't whether it's acceptable or unacceptable. We just need to figure out the punishment for said crime. I'm pretty sure the public humiliation will suffice is this case. I wonder if his lawyer is gonna release that statement this year? LOL
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 24, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
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"ethics" may be too strong a word but its the word we use. Don't damage anything, because it doesnt belong to you and other people have the right to enjoy it without all your bolts, chisel scars and glue. It's not like you're going up Mt Everest walking by all these dying people, that's real ethics, but you're still damaging something that's been in a natural state for millions of years. It's a good ethic but nothing compared to blasting away the side of a mountain to put in a highway, or for that matter, whoever built highway 120 damaged a lot of pristine wilderness and then opened the floodgates to tourism. I think you probably have a bigger impact on the environment in other ways, ie from the products you buy, garbage you make etc.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:05am PT
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Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:54am PT
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Wow, he has some kind of Tlingit tattoo on his back? So spiritual dude.
My Indian friend weeps.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 25, 2013 - 03:57am PT
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"if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago"
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 25, 2013 - 08:17am PT
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But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.
Unless you are cheney and Halliburton, then you can do it with taxpayer funding.
Dingus McGee,
Don't try to explain relativism and reason to this crowd, These are types that pound pitons with a hammers on desert vertical towers while tourists at the base while complaining about a random chossy boulder in the woods in NY. They do the Nose, but ignore the fact that it would go if it hadn't been chipped.
But hey, all climbing 'ethics' are local, right? Unless it is a crappy video, released by a half-rate mag tying to claw it's way up by being the new People magazine of the climbing world (Ivan EXPOSED), then then we can make universal assumptions and start flinging virtual interweb poo.
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defective detective
Trad climber
da gunks
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Feb 25, 2013 - 08:20am PT
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climbers are a sanctimonious lot?
no way!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 08:30am PT
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merchrist,
Learn the difference between morality and ethics. Morality has to do with when to kill, an entirely different matter than when to chisel.
patrick compton gets it right when he says, "... ethics are local." Climbing eithixs tries to regulate the almost intangibles yet ignores the obvious shades of its ingnorance.
GET THIS STRAIGHT: The filmed chiseler has climbing ethics BUT they are different than what some of you rant about.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 25, 2013 - 08:56am PT
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Always good to know who's lost all perspective along with Ivan.
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OR
Trad climber
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:03am PT
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Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.
Ha, awesome.
Say what you will about Ivan Greene but after watching a few of his vids posted here he is undoubtedly a self absorbed knob of the highest order.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 25, 2013 - 09:10am PT
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healyje,
you live in bubble, but you are just beginning to feel it's boundaries of the confined narrow world view you entertain.,
View Ivan work as heavy hold enhancement techniques whereas light hold enhancement techniques would be using a stiff wire brush.
And OR some people do boulder with a wire brush while some climbers climb with a hammer but to you and a few others cannot let Ivan boulder with a sledge.
Hey old man take a look at Your Life.... yours is a lot like mine
Go listen to Neil Young
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