Chipping culprit filmed in NY

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Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
The rock bears witness:

Check out the face by the heelhook at 1:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtSSGs-awug
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Looks like Rock Cricket has summed things up pretty well with some good (and rather entertaining) commentary:

http://rockcricketgbma.blogspot.com/2013/02/notes-from-choss-pile.html

Cheers!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Could have been boiled down to...

One person's desire to climb a line should in no way be placed over the rights of other climbers to use an area.

But whateva.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:32am PT
in a nutshell
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:16am PT
OK... I propose we ban all rock climbing. We should probably start a petition on whitehouse.gov.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create

I'd put it under 'Environment'... but you could probably make a case for putting the petition under 'Firearms', 'Homeland Security and Disaster Relief', or 'Women's Issues'.
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:25am PT
That last video is better than a comic book.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Bill Ramsey from the ClimbingNarc comments:

Because I have actually written in defense of a limited form of chipping, many people have asked me what I think about this video. So here are my thoughts.
One of the main points I tried to make in my earlier essay is this: most climbers think there is a morally significant difference between the removal of loose rock/vegetation to make something climbable, and the removable of solid rock to make something climbable. And my main point was that I don’t see a sound justification for treating these two things as ethically different. There are not different from the standpoint of ecology or environmental concerns. A principled environmentalism would make no distinction between, on the one hand, scrubbing off lichen, weeds, flaky or crumbly rock, prying off a loose block with a crowbar, or removing rocks or bushes or even trees to improve a landing on the one hand, and chipping a hold to make something climbable on the other hand. If anything, a serious environmentalist might frown more on the former because it includes the killing of a living part of nature. So I find it bizarre that many climbers strongly condemn the latter activity and yet often actually praise the former activity, all the while insisting on a strong commitment to environmentalism.

Now since climbing is akin to a sport, climbers can make up whatever ethical rules they want. The can decree that it is unethical to do a FA on a Tuesday, but OK to do one on a Wednesday. They can stipulate that it is wrong to scrub off bat guano, bur acceptable to scrub off pigeon guano. And they can stipulate that it is wrong it chip a hold, but OK to significantly modify the natural terrain in a lot of other ways to make something go. That is up to us. My point was simply that the last case is similar to the former cases in that there does not seem to be a sound reason for making such a normative distinction.

Having said that, I think there are a whole bunch of legitimate reasons to think that what is going on in the video may be quite wrong. For example, if an area has rules put in place by land managers that stipulate rocks, vegetation and other aspects of the natural terrain should not be altered, then those rules should be followed. But notice that adherence to such rules would preclude scrubbing off lichen and loose rock. There was also somewhere the suggestion that some of the chipping involved altering established problems. If something is an established climb, there are a lot of very good reasons to leave it exactly as it is, and not modify it in any way. Also, in my earlier essay I argued that a natural climb is generally far superior to a manufactured climb, and so I restricted my defense of chipping to sections of rock that are literally impossible in their current form (no matter how good future climbers are). Now if what is being chipped in the video is doable (even if doable in the V-19 range) then I think it should be left alone for that future climber.

Suppose that what was in fact being chipped was not possible, ever. Then what may result from the chipping is a (probably) crappy little boulder problem. But there are lots of crappy little boulder problems around the country that people nonetheless get some enjoyment out of doing. What is odd is the following: Suppose the video showed someone doing a lot of the “legitimate” work that often goes into establishing a problem – someone scrubbing lichen, prying off loose blocks with a crowbar, scraping off dirt and flaky rock, excavating underlying boulders to make a better landing and so on. And suppose the video was presented as a tribute to all the hard work that sometimes goes into a making a quality boulder problem. Then people would actually be celebrating the person in the video, thanking him for his diligence in “doing what it takes” to make a great boulder problem others can enjoy. What is interesting is that such a video might actually depict a much greater modification of the natural terrain than what is shown in the DPM video. If it makes sense to treat that acceptable sort of alteration as praiseworthy and wonderful, then it really doesn’t make sense to treat the chipping as absolutely monstrous. It certainly doesn’t make sense to do so on purely environmental grounds, which is what seems to driving a lot of the anger.

Comically, I just noticed in the November Climbing magazine, on the very first page there is an ad for some alliance between Jeep and the Access Fund, featuring something called the “Conservation Team”. It shows two individuals engaged in what appears to be some significant alteration of a rocky landscape, using a giant pry-bar. Apparently these are the Good Guys, promoting conservation and environmental awareness! Am I the only one who finds all of this a little odd?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:38am PT
"Bailiff whack his pee pee".
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Funny- I was searching my old posts for a totally unrelated anchor thread over on NooB.com and came across this Ivan Green thread:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1029391;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Evidently Ivan was already proclaimed as "the downfall in climbing" back in 2006 LOL.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Food for thought:
"Suppose the video showed someone doing a lot of the “legitimate” work that often goes into establishing a problem – someone scrubbing lichen, prying off loose blocks with a crowbar, scraping off dirt and flaky rock, excavating underlying boulders to make a better landing and so on. And suppose the video was presented as a tribute to all the hard work that sometimes goes into a making a quality boulder problem. Then people would actually be celebrating the person in the video, thanking him for his diligence in “doing what it takes” to make a great boulder problem others can enjoy. What is interesting is that such a video might actually depict a much greater modification of the natural terrain than what is shown in the DPM video. If it makes sense to treat that acceptable sort of alteration as praiseworthy and wonderful, then it really doesn’t make sense to treat the chipping as absolutely monstrous. It certainly doesn’t make sense to do so on purely environmental grounds, which is what seems to driving a lot of the anger."

Something to consider. But I don't find Jeep and the Access fund paired up odd at all.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Y'alls are getting owned by a self-promoting tool.


There is no such thing as bad publicity. You lose.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Funny- I was searching my old posts for a totally unrelated anchor thread over on NooB.com and came across this Ivan Green thread:

I suspect you're knott quite the "groupie" you were in the good ol' daze? ;-)
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Funny.. Here in 2012 I currently have no idea who Ivan Greene is. I had totally forgotten about him. Evidently I'm not a very good groupie. LOL

Seriously.. I *try* (don't always succeed) to not pass judgement on people I have never met in person, or routes I haven't seen or touched, so I got nothin' on Ivan Green. He's got plenty of people on his case already.

My guess.. he will never chip another hold again.

Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:40am PT
My guess.. he will never chip another hold again.

Somehow I don't think that will happen.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Screenshot from EDELRID's Facebook page...

 <br/>
Excerpt from EDELRID International Facebook page post comments

Excerpt from EDELRID International Facebook page post comments
Credit: Hardman Knott


http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/sponsoring/athletes/ivan-greene.html
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
I've only met Bill a couple times, and we have enough mutual friends that I consider him good people, but he is wrong here...

A principled environmentalism would make no distinction between, on the one hand, scrubbing off lichen, weeds, flaky or crumbly rock, prying off a loose block with a crowbar, or removing rocks or bushes or even trees to improve a landing on the one hand, and chipping a hold to make something climbable on the other hand. If anything, a serious environmentalist might frown more on the former because it includes the killing of a living part of nature. So I find it bizarre that many climbers strongly condemn the latter activity and yet often actually praise the former activity, all the while insisting on a strong commitment to environmentalism.

The biggest distinction is that rocks don't grow back, ever. Lichens typically reoccupy the cleaned holds within a decade. Plus, they reproduce by asexual fragmentation... so scrubbing lichen is really just an interspecies fukfest.

Trees grow back too, but it is usually illegal to cut down trees on FS land without a permit. If you "need" one cut, may I recommend getting a Christmas Tree permit next December.

Trying to establish an ecological basis for the outrage is silly. Anyone who can't see the ecological impacts of trails, landings, etc is blind. Not to mention the petroleum based foam pads, ropes, cars, etc.

Basically, it boils down to: tread lightly or you jeopardize future access for everyone else... hammers and chisels are not treading lightly. Besides, CREATING holds on a rock you can't climb is weak.




Spare us the "fine line between cleaning and chipping" crap coz. I've developed plenty of areas and it never once crossed my mind to pull out a hammer and chisels. HUGE difference between pulling off a loose flake and repeatedly pounding a chisel into the rock with a sledge hammer.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Just talked to another Gunks guy that has seen Ivan do this in person. Yeah, it's him, and it has been known about for years. Only now did someone think to video the guy to remove all doubt.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Well, now the Pope can relax!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Coz and Dingus. you know and I know that I know that you know that the video was not your normal rout cleaning trundeling gig;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
even I know that!
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