Chipping culprit filmed in NY

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GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 20, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/hammered-and-chiseled

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/just-cleaning

Some say its Ivan Greene? If that's the case what a shame, always thought he was a pretty rad dude. Hopefully its just the meth or something.

edit to add back story
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 20, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
pwned.

Curt
Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 20, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Looks pretty Ivan like to me, and confirms stories I had been hearing recently.

Is this Ivan Greene with a Chisel?
Is this Ivan Greene with a Chisel?
Credit: Nilepoc


Same Hat
Same Hat
Credit: Nilepoc
Here he is in the same hat.

looks like the same roof from inside, taken from IG facebook page.
looks like the same roof from inside, taken from IG facebook page.
Credit: Nilepoc

both photos from Facebook on IG's page.
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Did you ask him if it was him via the messaging abilities of Facebook?

Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
PM on facebook sent, awaiting reply.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Supertopo detectives solve another case!
ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Wait. A guy filmed this and didn't call the chipper out on it? That's as lame as the chipping.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
That looked like borderline quarrying
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
That's as lame as the chipping.

No it isn't. Sure, it is lame, but it isn't anywhere close to as lame as the chipping.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Ivan's sponsors should be CC'd on this..

Poofter
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
What a douche nozzle.
ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
No it isn't.

You call it like you see it and I'll call it like I see it. Whoever filmed that and continued to let it happen is just as lame as the guy chipping. 20 seconds of film would have been more than enough. Then you could walk up to the guy and tell him to stop. By not doing that you are lame.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Good thing he didn't smash his fingers.
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Never met the guy. But haven't heard anything good. One question that comes to mind is is that a natural boulder or an overgrown old quarry. I know that there is a quarry near Kingston that the locals actually replicated the route Chouca by going to France, topoing the holds and then returning home to do the drilling. Crazy perhaps, but this is climbing. Over on MP they're calling it at the Gunks. If so then the rangers there should handle it. In the vid there's a reference to Kingston and text that reads "on public land". If that's the case, well I just don't know. The beatings being recommended over on the other site probably isn't the answer.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I'm not a local so don't have too much say, just find it interesting and worth a discussion. It isn't like he's drone striking kids...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Whoever filmed that and continued to let it happen is just as lame as the guy chipping. 20 seconds of film would have been more than enough. Then you could walk up to the guy and tell him to stop. By not doing that you are lame.

Point taken, and I fully agree. I had it in my mind that the camera was one of those motion sensing wildlife rigs... which is clearly isn't and I should have known better.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
It isn't like he's drone striking kids...
No it's exactly like that. lol
treez

Trad climber
99827
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
I'm surprised nobody caught this, but he really should be wearing some eye protection.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
You call it like you see it and I'll call it like I see it. Whoever filmed that and continued to let it happen is just as lame as the guy chipping.

How does that work? He may be lame but it's a totally different lameness from chipping. Plus, she may have had a realistic fear for his safety. Some people get freaked out when caught and no one should be forced to take physical action if they are not comfortable with that.

Dave
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Second the mention of no eye protection. Careless.
ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
Dave

I'm not saying that they should have if they where worried for their own safety. I'm saying their lame. So that's how that works.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
Some people get freaked out when caught and no one should be forced to take physical action if they are not comfortable with that.

Another good point.

Okay... on a scale of 1 to 10...

Chipper = 11

Filmer = 4.72


lame: lacking needful or desirable substance


edit: chipper isn't even on a lameness scale, he is on the douche bag scale.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
So if you're standing in aid slings and bashing heads into a seam, that's not chipping? SuperTardo where the selfrighous come to talk sh#t.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:36pm PT


the second title screen says

"after other attempts at addressing the issue,this is what their cameras captured on public lands"

dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
Dude, bad style!

Chipping, quarrying, excavating.....I'm surprised there weren't any power tools involved.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:37pm PT

I'd certainly have called out authorities on this.
Whatever, the guy's an A hole.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
If he's been doing a lot of this it seems like he should be a better aim with that hammer
pk_davidson

Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
It isn't like he's drone striking kids...
No it's exactly like that. lol

Can we subpoena the Memoranda authorizing this BS?
Capt.

climber
some eastside hovel
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Limpingcrab-Yeah,I thought the same thing but more like "dude doesn't do construction or ice climb". LOL!
curt wohlgemuth

Social climber
Bay Area, California
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
I don't get it. How did the camera-dude get the footage without the guy seeing or hearing? Was it filmed from a drone? Cloak of invisibility??
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
He will be sent to the Cali central valley to hand pick sh!t out of the fields for 108 days with only water and gruel for punishment .....
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Looks to me like he was filmed from a distance without his knowledge. Lets hear the details on how the vid was made.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
I think we can all agree the real travesty is the gloves.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
So if you're standing in aid slings and bashing heads into a seam, that's not chipping

NO it's called progression.

Come now Winky..
pk_davidson

Trad climber
Albuquerque, NM
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
One of the sponsors:
http://www.edelrid.de/en/contact/

I hate to boycott edelrid cords but with so many decent rope choices out there, I don't need to supporting this stuff.

It ain't a bashie in a crack.
It's a bash job on crack.
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
How is this different from rap bolting? They're both manufactured lines.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Yeah sure big trad daddy.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
I suppose it's been awhile since had a thread on the difference between chipping, cleaning and using a hammer aid climbing.

No one has cared about rap bolting since 1986.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
How is this different from rap bolting? They're both manufactured lines.

Bullsh#t.


Plenty of ACTUALLY manufactured lines...
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
He's just throwin' pies, Wes.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
You call it like you see it and I'll call it like I see it. Whoever filmed that and continued to let it happen is just as lame as the guy chipping.

Bullsh#t.

That's like saying a newsreporter is responsible for the Syrian war. Total bullsh#t.

DMT
ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
The only bullshit here DMT is coming from you. Your example is a total waste of my time. Try again.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
You call it like you see it and I'll call it like I see it. Whoever filmed that and continued to let it happen is just as lame as the guy chipping.

Bullsh#t.

That's like saying a newsreporter is responsible for the Syrian war. Total bullsh#t.

DMT


BUT THEY TOTALLY CUD OF STOPPED IT DOOD!
Dos XX

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Let him teach you how.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Yeah- run down and confront the guy with a hammer and chisel in his hands out in the middle of those blair witch project looking woods- good idea.

I reckon it was a hidden cam triggered by movement or a remote anyway.

ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
I reckon it was a hidden cam triggered by movement or a remote anyway.

No way. The camera moves during the course of the video. It was handheld for sure.
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
who cares about chipping? unless you never pounded a pin or drilled/clipped a bolt you really have no room to talk.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
The vid was made after many attempts to stop the chipping. It's lame to blame the filmer. The public exposure is the next step.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
unless you never pounded a pin or drilled/clipped a bolt you really have no room to talk.

More bullsh#t.
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
ever drill a bolt?^
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
who cares about chipping? unless you never pounded a pin or drilled/clipped a bolt you really have no room to talk.

If two things are similar, they are the same.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
It sounds like they'd been looking to find out who the local chipper was for a long time, and wanted to nail him on video.

I wouldn't go confronting a big strong guy in the woods with a hammer in his hand. I think their tactic will ultimately be successful in showering opprobrium on the chipper, even if that boulder had to take a few extra hits.

Can't wait to hear the Duane Raleigh take: is this the right guy doing it the right way, or just an artless poser?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Yep, I've drilled bolts.

It is WAY different than pulling out a set of chisels and a 5lb sledge to MAKE holds because you can't climb what is there.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
You whip out a hammer, you become a "manufacturer" of holds--pretty simple, really.

Artificial climbing is just that...
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
kinda like bolts, you couldn't climb it without them.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
The link provided shows the video. There is an article that accompanies it; http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/just-cleaning.

I can't tell whether it is Ivan or not. He normally wears glasses and it would seem a bit strange to take them off while banging on chisels.

Ivan is a really good boulderer and led the charge that brought the Gunks out of the bouldering doldrums it had languished in for a decade or more. It would be really sad if, after opening so many eyes to the possibilities all around, he would turn to manufacturing routes as he aged, and I for one hope it isn't true.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:37pm PT


What if the camera man was a women?

ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
What if the camera man was a women?

Then it would be camerawoman. Jeez was that so hard. lol
WBraun

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
He normally wears glasses and it would seem a bit strange to take them off while banging on chisels.

Not if you're worried about rock chips flying into your expensive glasses.

prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
easiest thing would be to just go erase the problem with a chisel...

its already chipped anyway
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:47pm PT

Arrrgh. here we go again !

Every body is a saint with no ego ?

I *like what Bullwinkle, Dingus and Werner had to say upthread.

What I have to say, I already
said on FaceBook when I first read the news/saw the vid.

MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Werner has a good point. The hat IS the same. It does look like Ivan. Fishfinder is right: what if it WAS a woman filming? Or even someone who didn't want to get beat up and have their camera smashed or taken by an angry scofflaw?

I just went to his FB and pulled this off of it:

Credit: MisterE

I am seriously thinking it is Ivan, but draw your own conclusions.

That is messed up, IMO - but justify it however you wish.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
People who think there is any comparative justification or rationale of any kind for this behavior are completely lost.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Does anybody really think its not Ivan? And no the filmer is not as guilty as the chipper.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Every body is a saint with no ego ?

When was that ever even the issue? The dude smashed the fuk out of a boulder problem... and probably more. It has nothing to do with anybody else being a saint or having an ego.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Caffeine is a gateway drug.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
People who think there is any comparative justification or rationale of any kind for this behavior are completely lost.


100% true....
weezy

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
that chipper is a hipster moron. he totally could've drilled a nice two finger pocket right there. lol, what a rookie. he should take notes from a world class chipper like yaniro or a frenchman and see what true cutting-edge route manufacturing is all about. elegance in movement at the expense of the stone. gotta break some eggs to make an omlette and all that.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
gotta break some eggs to make an omlette and all that.

lol

Amateurs dude.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
All I can say is - wow.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
True craftsman..
Scott Thelen

Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Nice gloves!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
Would love to see his outfit if he ever took up welding...
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
I wonder if anyone that has posted on this forum could even climb the route? of course not
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
From an old friend who knows Ivan...

He's an attention whore, so he will likely find some sick way to use this to make himself feel awesome.

The worst thing people can do to Ivan is simply shun him and ignore him. It would be worse than hell for him.

Climbing is relatively free of genuine drama, and even in this case, people seem rather civil/borderline wussy about the whole thing.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
If you are going to show someone bouldering at Stoney and call them a pro, at least you could show them doing something 350 young hotshots haven't already done.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
I wonder if anyone that has posted on this forum could even climb the route? of course not

So f-cking what? Is that somehow relevant?
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:48pm PT

I wonder if anyone that has posted on this forum could even climb the route? of course not

Um, neither could the chipper.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
huh. this threads kinda going weird directions.

be nice guys... this isn't that big of a deal... just don't want to lose access or have future projects destroyed. Boulders are finite resources, and V18 will happen someday.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
huh. this threads kinda going weird directions.

What were you expecting?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
this isn't that big of a deal... just don't want to lose access or have future projects destroyed.

yeah, what's all the fuss?
weezy

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
i just feel bad for that poor chipster. that granite looks rock hard. i'll bet his hands were super sore after that brutal round of "comfortizing". out here in the desert the sandstone is nice and soft. couple of sweeps of the hand and you got yourself a nice edge. you don't even need any hardware!
ruppell

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
that granite looks rock hard

LMFAO.
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
goodness.
what a complete crow.
that dude needs to flee the mountains
and plant his dead asse in an office
chair and type away at keys.

i vote total f*#king douche.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Um, neither could the chipper.

HAHAAHAHAH so awesome.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Why is the term douche always used in the negative? I for one think douche bags serve a valuable purpose. Let's take that term back and turn it to a positive.
Example: That douche makes a great creme brûlée.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
lol, TheLarry, that cracked me up! thx
Rock Cricket

climber
North Canaan, CT
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
kinda like bolts, you couldn't climb it without them.

You CAN climb something that would protect (only) with bolts without them..
1. Freesolo
2. Toprope

You CAN'T lead a line in that situation without bolts. Is it worth defacing the rock to be able to lead a line that you could just toprope? Debatable. I for one think it's fine (assuming you couldn't lead it on gear) as long as they are placed properly, in the proper locations, and not excessively (all subjective). Anyway, you CAN physically climb something without the bolts because the holds are still there. In this case, presumably THE HOLDS WERE NOT THERE! THE ASSHOLE CARVED THEM OUT! (at least, it lacked good enough holds for this guy to climb it). And no, I couldn't climb it either, with or without the chipping.

Bottom line, this dude was wrong doing this. For the person who wrote the guidebook for Gunks bouldering to be defacing rock in the region (or anywhere) is f***ed.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
bad Ivan!
Norwegian

Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
when i employ the term douche
in a negative connotation,
i am suggesting a "spent" douche.

like it's been up there and then
expelled.

it is probably completely sexist
and ignorant male babble with
unintended insults upon the females
among us,

so i guess i can archive that one
in my cerebral luggage.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
"Bottom line, this dude was wrong doing this. For the person who wrote the guidebook for Gunks bouldering to be defacing rock in the region (or anywhere) is f***ed. "

Agreed.

Haven't seen the book but I'd be interested in what he has to say about the local ethics with regards to chipping, manufacturing, etc... or maybe there isn't a section on that.

That dog knows it's tainted, you can see it in his eyes.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
i vote total f*#king douche.

I second that.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Well, I just called out Ivan on Facebook, saying:

If this is NOT YOU *Ivan Greene* (linked name), then you should make a statement to that effect. Many of us (including myself) are starting to draw conclusions from various sources

1/2 hour later, there is no sign of my post.

Very interesting. He is still my FB friend, and when I go to his page there is no "you were mentioned in a post by..."

Damage control?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
FAKT:

1) that was a human person in that video
2) Said Human person is most likely a climber
3) Said person has been identified by dozens of people
4) Said person has not been suggested to be anyone other than Ivan Greene
5) then there's the hat - same in the video as on the FB page

dude is totally busted and a a total douche.

And if anyone doubts that's chipping they have never held a hammer.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
I was just joking Weg. Although I've heard that Ivan does make a tasty flan.
Rock Cricket

climber
North Canaan, CT
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Haven't seen the book but I'd be interested in what he has to say about the local ethics with regards to chipping, manufacturing, etc... or maybe there isn't a section on that.

I happen to have the guidebook right here..

Bouldering in the Shawangunks 2nd edition, Ivan Greene & Marc Russo

"ETHICS AND UNDERSTANDINGS:
Keep it simple. Leave the rocks the way they are. No chipping, filling, sculpting, etc. of anything on the boulders.."

WHAT THE F***!!!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
What were you expecting?

A BJ from Jeremy's mom, mostly.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Nice thread GD. 100+ posts!

Edit

A BJ from Jeremy's mom, mostly.

Hey! don't be a douche!
Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Still no reply to Facebook PM.

MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
Are you sure you want to remove Ivan Greene as your friend?

Yes.

4804 friends at last check - let's see where this goes...
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
He's probably a doper too . . . where is the USADA?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
Thanks Cricket.

WTF indeed.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Still no reply to Facebook PM.

I think we know why
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
would this be a bad time to admit that I chipped Stick It so I could bag my project?
weezy

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
meanwhile, four leaders gaze upon this travesty, stone-faced in their silent objection...

MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
Has anyone freed the Noses?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
^^^^ the convenience of that meme is astounding.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
haha nice one g
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:24am PT
The link provided shows the video. There is an article that accompanies it; http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/just-cleaning.

I can't tell whether it is Ivan or not. He normally wears glasses and it would seem a bit strange to take them off while banging on chisels.

Ivan is a really good boulderer and led the charge that brought the Gunks out of the bouldering doldrums it had languished in for a decade or more. It would be really sad if, after opening so many eyes to the possibilities all around, he would turn to manufacturing routes as he aged, and I for one hope it isn't true.

Sorry Rich, but It is Ivan.

Curt
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:29am PT


Comparing Gutzon Borglum to Ivan Greene is like comparing Banksy to GDavis.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:29am PT
Excerpt from Curt's link above:

Dave Graham once stated, "It’s different in bouldering , I think no hold chipping is universally accepted, even if unfortunately there are some sad exceptions. The problem with hard lines is finding them."

Dave suggests that our boulders are a finite resource. There is only so much rock out there and creating new holds to make a problem easier erases the possibility that a more talented or driven climber could come along and climb the problem.

One such instance happened last year in the 'Gunks, a popular bouldering area in New York State. There was a boulder problem that had been a long-standing project for local climbers and had spit off all suitors since their first attempts as early as 1996. It was no secret, even being listed in the guidebook as a project. Many top-climbers had tried it, and it was estimated to be in the V13 range. One local climber was particularly invested in the project. "I'd been looking at that thing since I was 16," he said. "I tried it on and off for 12 years and much of the time I thought it probably didn't go, but after 15 years of climbing, I finally started to unlock some sequences."

Last spring, he finally did all the moves and had done it in two sections. A send of the problem seemed close until one day, he returned to the problem and found that an unknown person had altered the holds. "It was definitely different and easier. I have no doubt that someone carved out a thumb catch to make a hold better. I lost all motivation for it. It's not even that I'm upset that the problem was stolen from me; I'm more upset that it was taken from the climbing community. It was always a problem that I aspired to climb and it would always have been there for other climbers to aspire to."

Other local climbers began noticing that the project wasn't the only one that got chipped in the area. Another local stated, "We started to see these problems that were completely manufactured- like every hold. It was happening all over. We had suspicions about who it was, but there isn't exactly a police force in the boulders to prevent this stuff from happening."

Recently on a snowy day, the ring of hammer and chisel on stone rang out, and the climbers were able to film a person in the act of altering the rock. What, exactly, they caught on film is debatable. Sometimes, when establishing rock climbs, a dangerous flake is pried loose to prevent injuries to future climbers. Sometimes that loose flake is 'scored' with a chisel so that when it breaks, it leaves a handhold, and sometimes holds are blatantly created with the use of tools.

The local climbers presented the video to DPM with the request that they remain anonymous. "We don't want this to come off as a personal attack," they said. "We've tried speaking with the person and it obviously hasn't had an effect. Our intent isn't malicious, we just want this to stop happening to our boulders."

Most climbers will likely agree that the actions portrayed in the video cross the line. We spoke with the Access Fund to hear their stance on the issue and how it could affect the future of climbing. The Access Fund stated that they, "vehemently oppose intentional alteration of the rock by gluing or chipping for the purpose of creating or enhancing holds. We believe such actions degrade the climbing resource, eliminate challenges for future generations of climbers, and threaten access."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Everyone knows you only chip boulder problems to remove holds and make them harder. duh
weezy

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Comparing Gutzon Borglum to Ivan Greene is like comparing Banksy to GDavis.

yah! let's see ivan chisel a teddy roosevelt moustache into the crux hold. fricken rookie. say what you will about gutzon but that guy knew how to sculpt some choss.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:51am PT
...or have future projects destroyed.

They can't be destroyed if they haven't been manufactured yet.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:23am PT
You call that chipping? WTF? The guy obviously doesn't know the first thing about how to use a chisel. This is f*#king 'chipping'.























mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Removing death blocks is one thing. Blatant manufacturing of holds is another.


Here's one I "chipped" with my fingers of steel trying a direct exit. Missed me by THAT much.



Bonus points if you name the east side location and tell me what the problem is named.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:46am PT
Now that's pretty damn cool, if not surreal. You definitely dodged a bullet on that one.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:31am PT
Here's one I "chipped" with my fingers of steel trying a direct exit. Missed me by THAT much.

You miserable chipper. Remember that huge thing we (you) trundled from the top of that great boulder problem on the S. side of Humphreys?

Curt
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:53am PT
Bonus points if you name the east side location ...
Looks a little like those boulders in rock creek cyn. Guessing it doesn't go any more after that fell off.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 21, 2013 - 03:05am PT
You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Let the artist do his work.
Credit: McHale's Navy
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 07:10am PT
Comparing Gutzon Borglum to Ivan Greene is like comparing Banksy to GDavis.


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:45am PT
Hopefully OSHA doesn't see this...?
Dickly

Social climber
KY
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:13am PT
I heard that he only wears glasses cause they go with his tatoos really well.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:41am PT
The problem is that everyone knows that the sh#t is wrong to do, so what do you do when the line gets crossed? It probably comes about from creeping incrementalism where you need to pull off loose flakes, then you need to knock a few off that are wiggling but won't pull off by hand. Lets get him out here we'll set him to cleaning up this stuff to straighten him out.



Certainly having the guys sponsors put him on ignore would favor my tastes. Anyone confirm who it is?
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:40am PT
healyje - as a friendly suggestion, ST has a neat photo-uploading feature that presents your photos in the thread at 600 pixels (wide or tall), and then when clicked will be enlarged to 1024 pixels (wide or tall), which would be more than adequate.

As you might have noticed, your humongous hot-linked photos have made the thread very difficult to read - It becomes a Scroll-a-Thon™. One of those pics is 1809 pixels wide!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:50am PT
curt, like a small fridge eh? Didn't I have to get my car jack to get it out of the way of the problem?

biotch, yup, Rock Creek. The lip traverse goes, the straight up... donno.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Greene has been chipping at the Gunks since day one. Look at the Box Car Arete.

In my one and only experience with the guy, he came off as a complete ass.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:32am PT
A lot of self righteous chat going on here.

Climbing routes You may have done and thought they were great often involve a portion of cleaning/ALTERING work. Now this seeming necessary work by naive totally natural standards would be a cardinal sin. Sedimentary rocks require more alternation even when they are on public land.

Hats off those who make routes out of rubble? If you need to chisel get an 18v Makita rotary percussion drill and put it in HAMMER MODE with a Bosch bit and call it HOLD ENHANCEMENT TECHNIQUES. And so you will create a sport area that many can enjoy.

You trad bastards have almost never done anything with the sedimentary rocks and when you do you leave a line of scars from your aid line.

If you going to make a route make it so you can get it by working it, make it safe of loose, make it dust free and minimize alteration to achieve these goals.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:40am PT
This is going to be the next 1000+ post thread. Hey if you want to see real chipping look what they did to the cliffs around Monterrey, the city near El Potrero Chico. Beautiful valley of rock cliffs, so they turn it into a mega- quarry.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Whoa! Just did a Google search of Ivan Greene and this is the suggestion window:

Google search - Ivan Greene
Google search - Ivan Greene
Credit: Hardman Knott

Clicked it and came across this from Climbing Narc.com:

Chipping Caught On Film In New York

Excerpt:

Update - Statement from Edelrid:

We would like to state unequivocally that EDELRID does not support the practice of chipping. It is our belief that the challenge, and the pleasure of climbing, lies in rock formations, as they occur naturally.

With this in mind we can state that we find the recent behaviour of Ivan Greene to be completely unacceptable, and we would like to take this opportunity to clarify that he is no longer an EDELRID sponsored athlete, and in actuality has not been supported by the brand for over 12 months.

We will be removing all references to Ivan Greene from the EDELRID website with immediate effect.
John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:51am PT
healyje, socks?

and I thought I was the only one left...
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
this threed needs some positive energy....





Re the chipping video...



I was terrified and sickened with each swing of the maul

The complete lack of skill

The absence of eye protection

Lucky he didn't blind himself

Or hit his thumb or break his wrist



An artist would use feathers and wedges



An inventive douche-bag he is not.












mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Climbing routes You may have done and thought they were great often involve a portion of cleaning/ALTERING work.

You are comparing apples to hours of work with a 5lb sledge and chisels.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
The comments on dpmclimbing.com are pretty entertaining...

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/hammered-and-chiseled

Credit: Hardman Knott
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
The comments on dpmclimbing.com are heating up - this little exchange is hilarious!

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/hammered-and-chiseled

Credit: Hardman Knott
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:17pm PT

Well personally:

I find the whole 'Dual Penatration Magazine' format to be about as entertaining and representative of what's going on as 'Faux News' station !
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
The biggest surprise in all this kerfluffle is that people are actually surprised.

Ivan chipping is not a new thing. He has a history of chipping.

Next thing, you'll tell me Timy Fairfield is chipping.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
LOL I'm glad that DPM poster could fix that for us.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Good comments from EDELRID on their Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/EDELRIDInternational?fref=ts
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:26pm PT



Lets just hope the filmographer didnt

break that tree branch to get the shot!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
"We would like to state unequivocally that EDELRID does not support the practice of chipping. It is our belief that the challenge, and the pleasure of climbing, lies in rock formations, as they occur naturally.

With this in mind we can state that we find the recent behaviour of Ivan Greene to be completely unacceptable, and we would like to take this opportunity to clarify that he is no longer an EDELRID sponsored athlete, and in actuality has not been supported by the brand for over 12 months.

We will be removing all references to Ivan Greene from the EDELRID website with immediate effect."
The Wedge

Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
Feb 21, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Ivan Green <---Focken Loser!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Still there... http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/sponsoring/athletes/ivan-greene.html
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Why would a rope company sponsor a boulderer?
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Why would a rope company sponsor a boulderer?


Because a boulderer doesn't have any money to fix their car and they use the rope to tow the car home.

This shows that edelrid ropes are strong and good.

Rolls eyes .....
this just in

climber
north fork
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Plus sometimes they gotta rap down from the boulder.
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
that would have been hard for me to keep filming so quietly.

coulda been interesting to call him out on film.

OR

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Plus sometimes they gotta rap down from the boulder to make holds.

Fixed that for ya:)
OR

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
I would love to hear the details on the stealthy survailance mission by the filmers. Must of been sporty.
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
When I first heard about this I searched Ivan Greene and landed on: www.BrooklynBoulders.com


I contacted them to try and get Ivan's response, today I recieved the following from Lance Pinn:

Thanks man,


He says he was cleaning up after someone else's mess. He will have his lawyer release a statement shortly I think.


-Lance
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
I fired off an email to Edelrid as soon as I saw that.
Every thing I've ever seen or heard of Ivan just spells complete tool.
He and I have several mutual friends on FB and one day my wife asks me who Ivan Greene is, she just received a friend request from some weird looking guy. Pathetically searching through second- hand Facebook friends for females you've never met? Classy....
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
He says he was cleaning up after someone else's mess. He will have his lawyer release a statement shortly I think.

-Lance

Funny whether a joke or true (I'm hoping for the latter, we'll all stay tuned I'm sure).
bjj

climber
beyond the sun
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
The statements below assume the following:

1) Holds were being manufactured, and it was not simply cleaning off friable choss or loose flakes / junk that would be pulled off at the wrong time if left as is.

2) It isn't being done in his backyard, on private land with the owner's permission or in a quarry.

3) It is in fact Ivan Greene

Ahem....

What an absolute f**kwad.

I remember this clown from some bouldering vids from back in the late 90's (IIRC). Came off like a complete tool. That stupid ass tattoo on his back tells me all I need to know. It is very similar to what a lot of the posers in the MMA (mixed martial arts) scene have done, along with wearing stupid Affliction style tshirts heavily laden with skulls, pitbulls and barbed wire to try and look like a bad ass. This is a lot easier than actually learning to be a badass through training and hard work.

There is (usually) an inverse relationship between talent / ability and ego / need for validation.

Also, the idea that the person filming is culpable for not running down there to confront him is ludicrous. Putting yourself into what would certainly be a heated exchange with someone holding items capable of easily killing you is the milieu of people with poor critical thinking skills, or as we observe in this thread, keyboard warrior badasses who greatly overestimate themselves.

Finally, the idea of a "slippery slope" from other practices like putting in bolts or the use of non-clean aid to this atrocity is tenuous at best.



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
He will be sent to the Cali central valley to hand pick sh!t out of the fields for 108 days with only water and gruel for punishment

Hey, don't dis honest work, Werner. I earned the money for my first rope, 'biners and pro (well, OK, pitons, so I'm guilty, too) by picking grapes.

I have a hard time judging whether someone is a good or bad person, since I have so many faults myself. I have an easier time judging whether chipping is acceptable or unacceptable. It is not and should not be. When we gained an alternative to widening pin scars, we stopped using pins, by and large. We have always had an alternative to chipping on boulders. Last I checked, there is still no shortage of unknown bouldering territory.

John
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Still there...

I posted a link to that on EDELRID's Facebook page and got this response:

Hi David, we've de-listed this page from our main athletes page, but the webmaster informs us it will take some time still to remove the page completely. It seems like you can still find it via Google. Please bear with us.


-as for this hilariously funny quote:

He says he was cleaning up after someone else's mess. He will have his lawyer release a statement shortly I think.

Cool! I was wondering what the epoxy was for...

Tools of the trade? No, tools of the tool!
Tools of the trade? No, tools of the tool!
Credit: Hardman Knott
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
merchrist,

No comparisons used here. You are projecting. I have described the pathway to some of the good routes we climb.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
Couch: It probably comes about from creeping incrementalism where you need to pull off loose flakes, then you need to knock a few off that are wiggling but won't pull off by hand.
That's some serious incrementalism when it includes about 300 pounds of rock and explicitly targets chiseling out whole swaths of non-loose crack and dihederal on an existing pitch variation which results in lowering its difficulty a grade. And that's before any retrobolts. Even more 'incrementalist' is the stunningly boldface claim it absolutely, positively did not happen, but then such is the extent of some folks' personal and collective reality distortion field - just like the one seen enveloping Ivan Greene in the video. [Creeping (and creepy)] 'incrementalism' is when you cut the top half off of beautiful little trees that aren't even in the way of any thing just because you can't restrain the urge.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
I have described the pathway to some of the good routes we climb.

In a thread about chipping. If that is not an implicit comparison, what is it?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
It's just a boulder, there's millions of them everywhere. Let the guy glue his hold and call it a V13. It's like taking a moral position about people killing ants.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Nice gloves!!!

There are two reasonable explanations:

1. Hand model
2. Girlfriend protection
splitclimber

climber
Sonoma County
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
amazed by some of the comments here - just posters trolling to get others to bite??

do some of you actually believe what you are posting, that this is acceptable or just no big deal since it occurs in climbing?

i don't just jump on the ethics band wagon, but this seems sooooo wrong, esp. on public land, etc.

lame, lame, lame

does anyone know the name of the boulder? are there other established problems on it?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Dude needs to invest in better epoxy...
Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Elcapinyoazz,

Next thing, you'll tell me Timy Fairfield is chipping.

Lol,

I confonted him in the 90's over a cup of coffee. I was returning his gas powered ryobi drill that I "found" in a wilderness area in the Sandias in NM. He was bolting a red Camalot sized crack with it. The route went on to become turbo trad a short bolted climb in the Sandias.

Over coffee I asked him about his gluing and chipping practices in Box Canyon and at the Enchanted tower. His most recent accomplishment then was a high number glue up named Child of the Light. (Child of the glue is a more apt name).

His take on it was hey go ahead and write your letter to the mags. I will even pose for a photo with a chisel. He was unashamed and stated that all publicity is good publicity. There was no curing him. Another friend at the time found a stash of Timmy's chisels at box canyon and de-sharpened them on a bench grinder and returned them to Timmy.

Timmy went on to glue up and dig out some limestone Choss in the sandias again in wilderness. I hope he has quit manufacturing routes, but do not have much faith that he has.

While talking to me he gave a critique of his work and said his peers thought his routes weren't altered enough.

Big egos lead to big heads and small actions for even smaller gains. Hopefully with this Ivan incident the world of chipping will be forced to consider their actions more carefully.

Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
Whoever it is and whatever is going on in their head, I hope this isn't a glimpse into the future.
Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
What it is, is a glimpse of our past and the present. Only we can change the future.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
Timmy to my partner at Enchanted Tower, 1997:

"Wow, you have huge muscles! We should go out drinking sometime."

My partner was a little confused because his gf was a smoking hot Frenchie... he could only come up with "oh yeah?"

"Yeah! I like to talk sh#t and I could use someone strong like you around."


I thought he was pretty funny the rest of the time we climbed with him. But the chipping is unacceptable.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
It looked like he could have been removing loose flakes in order to try a new roof problem. If it was an unestablished boulder problem that he was going to establish then I imagine it would be wise to remove the stuff that was likely to breakoff. I always thought of chipping as establishing new handholds where they don't exist. He (may) not be quite as quilty as it initially looks.
Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I always used to say "Timmy is the nicest guy I hate". I am not sure I really hated him but I definitely don't respect him.
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
This kind of behavior is just unacceptable in the climbing community.

I thought we learned that from decades past. I naively thought this was at last something that all ST posters could agree on.

Justifying Ivan Greene's behavior by stating that pins have been hammered on El Cap is completely missing the point, and is not relevant to this discussion.

Brushing aside this transgression b/c its not as serious as drone strikes on innocent people, once again, completely misses the point.

I'm sorry that some posters on here are OK with this simply b/c its a boulder and there are millions of them. Besides the obvious ethical problems raised by this chipping, landowners can can (and have) limited access to climbing areas in light of behavior like this.

Climbers have a chance to step up to the plate and show the powers that be that we CAN self-police; and that this is NOT tolerated. NOT at the Gunks or Upstate NY, not in JT, not anywhere.

-


As for the cameraman....well I don't blame him for staying quiet and just filming. Would you risk provoking or incensing someone who is wielding a hammer??

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
All the comparative arguments (and photos) used in this and other threads are just weak beyond measure. I mean, just how bad is chipping and retro bolting compared to war, acts of god, and Bhopal?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
merchrist,

get off this lame non nondescript bs. I am revealing some history of what goes on before the climb makes it to the guidebook.

Please state the comparison you see--the one you causing your annoyment? Some vague language by you makes for a non-sense posting.

Put up some routes and let's know what you have learned other than what goes on in the gym.
ruppell

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
I just reread the article the Rgold linked on page three. I'll emphasize some words that make it appear that there was more than one person videoing the act. Even if I was alone I would have no problem confronting someone in that situation. It's a pretty rash jump to assume someone who would chip would also attack someone for being called out on it. Either way I'm glad they got proof of who it was.

Recently on a snowy day, the ring of hammer and chisel on stone rang out, and the climbers were able to film a person in the act of altering the rock. What, exactly, they caught on film is debatable. Sometimes, when establishing rock climbs, a dangerous flake is pried loose to prevent injuries to future climbers. Sometimes that loose flake is 'scored' with a chisel so that when it breaks, it leaves a handhold, and sometimes holds are blatantly created with the use of tools.

The local climbers presented the video to DPM with the request that they remain anonymous. "We don't want this to come off as a personal attack," they said. "We've tried speaking with the person and it obviously hasn't had an effect. Our intent isn't malicious, we just want this to stop happening to our boulders."
Edge

Trad climber
New Durham, NH
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
As for the cameraman....well I don't blame him for staying quiet and just filming. Would you risk provoking or incensing someone who is wielding a hammer??

The way he was swinging it I doubt A) that he could even hit me and B) if he did, it wouldn't even welt.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Reminded by Royal's dictum back in the late Seventies or so:

"Sport climbing is the child that wants to eat its mother"

Chippers have really lost touch
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Either way I'm glad they got proof of who it was.

Confronting and spraying is just so much internet hearsay compared to the outright effectiveness of the video. Tell Edelrid Ivan is chipping and nothing happens, show them a video of him chipping and sh#t happens.
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
he'd be walking around with that hammer sticking out of his arse if he so much as looked at me wrong.i outweigh him by at least 50 lbs.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Put up some routes and let's know what you have learned other than what goes on in the gym.

I've put up far more bp's than routes... upwards of 400 in the last decade. I never had the need or desire to put up spurt routes... I grew up in SLC, plenty of skilled and motivated people willing to do the work. "Putting up" easy trad is just a matter of wandering around stuffing cams in cracks and not killing my gf with loose rock... and I find that boring as sh#t.


I know what it takes to clean up a bp, and I know it don't take a hammer and chisel... EVER.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
The force a hammer and chisel puts on a hold is what, a few dozen times the weight of a fat climber? I could apply the same force he was using to a hundred old school classics at josh and bust off most bomber flakes. Think of funking...

Wes, do you have one of those fancy rigs with a cliffhanger hook on the end of a telescoping pole w/a fatty brush? Typicall all i've seen to bust off fragile edges up high, a taped aid hook.
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Watching the video there's beyond no doubt this guy is manufacturing holds.

If one is so stupid to believe some total bullsh!t that there's only cleaning up being done here then you're dreaming.

Cleaning up and manufacturing holds can easily be discerned by the actions of how the tools are being used against the object/s.

There are tools visible being used in the video evidence that point easily beyond "just cleaning up" along with the glue.

"Just cleaning up" is a simple semantics tactic of words to hide behind contrary to the evidence in the video.

The locals obviously have been objecting to this persons actions for some time.

This is why it has been presented by them as evidence of proof.

Whether it's acceptable or not is up to you people since you hold the future of your sport, lifestyle and climbing in your hands .....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
My rig is pretty simple. I have no metal hook on my telescoping pole, just a clip.



I clip a brush or stick to the end and clean what I can reach. I've only rapped a couple boulders for cleaning purposes.

I usually have a couple areas of interest and visit them when the snow is deep and I can reach the tops... or clean them on the send.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
"Sport climbing is the child that wants to eat its mother"

Thanks, Peter, for that Robbins quote.

A little extreme, I'd say, but right in character with the "Vandals in the Temple" viewpoint.

I'd say it's more like the child that grew up, left home, and doesn't really care what its mother thinks about protection anymore.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
...and so goes around loaded with STDs.
fat-n-sassy

Social climber
San Francity, CA
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Ok boys.

I'm new to the chipping scene, can someone explain to me:

What's the glue for?

Also, I'm appalled that the gloves have only gotten 4-5 posts. I think we should start another thread so that violation doesn't get lost in this chipping mayhem.
wivanoff

Trad climber
CT
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
What's the glue for?

In case one "cleans" too aggressively...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Has anyone checked the rocks in Central Park lately? They must be taking a real beating.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
healyje

central park rocks are about 40% epoxy at this point. not from chipping but from things breaking off under "normal wear and tear". however now that yuki isn't around my guess is that if it breaks off it stays off these days. unless someone else has taken over the task.
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Huh? I've met Ivan Greene. He's a really strong boulderer. Strange that with all of the climbing he can do, he would choose to chip. Climbing rocks is so much more fun than construction.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Maybe the chipping that goes on will stop when a/the crowd "watching" kicks the shite out of the person doing it to set an example for the rest...


...I doubt that either will happen, but it would be interesting to see it play out.


Remember, folks; NO ONE has freed the Nose on El Cap without using the Jardine Traverse!!!!1111
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 21, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
...and so goes around loaded with STDs.



I set you up for that one : ) , healyje
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:04pm PT


Glue is to preserve critical holds that make the route what it is, and which legions of gym trained monkees don't know how to pull on, as they lack the finesse which comes from climbing virgin natural rock. My personal opinion is that holds which are usable for the FA w/o glue can be justifiably reinforced by the FAist to retain the character, and difficulty of the route, to prevent overtrained lunks with poor footwork from ripping them off the wall.

Glueing should be rare, legal, and done with the utmost craftsmanship.


Other than that, it can be anywhere from an eyesore to an abomination.


Dickly

Social climber
KY
Feb 21, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
not that I'm gay or anything but I gotta say the little guy is kinda cute when he swings that GIANT hammer
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
This post is slowing down..let's get some more inflammatory statements on here!
username

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Regardless of what you think about chipping, dude swings a hammer like a bitch.

S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
best username evah!
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
this looks like a much more effective tool


Credit: S.Leeper
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
we need some photoshop magic on this thread
WBraun

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Yep .... S.Leeper

That's the tool I use too .....
username

climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Ya'll aren't even taking this seriously anymore. Everyone knows that a good old fashioned Swedish Poonjammer is the only acceptable tool for a job like this. Runs on hope and magic. Keep it well lubricated for maximum effect.

Pionjär: Accept no substitutes.
Pionjär: Accept no substitutes.
Credit: username
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Who in the helck is this Ivan Greene guy? Never heard of him before this. What's his claim to fame besides terrible ink and chipping.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
Those tats are sweet. Attention whoooahhh
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 21, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
i think he started a tshirt business with some hot chicks in his ads.
He was the manager at chelsea piers climbing gym in NYC.
bamboo

Trad climber
pike co
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:07pm PT

Feb 21, 2013 - 01:03pm PT

"It's just a boulder, there's millions of them everywhere. "

if thats the case then he wouldn't have a problem moving on to one he can climb!--furthermore IMO-he had plans to chip/manufacture alot more holds --why else would he stash all those tools---EVERYONE has made mistakes-but this is clearly past that-what a self centered little glory whore!!
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 21, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
They should put a bag over dudes head (rendition-style) then take off a couple of key digits from the guy.

Whoever doesn't show up to the next big session due to injury may be the guy to shun.

Missing fingers = scarlet letter = banishment/ill treatment from now on



….but that's just my angry side coming out…. there is a much simpler way of putting the mark on the dude.



Edit Edit:
I clip a brush or stick to the end and clean what I can reach. I've only rapped a couple boulders for cleaning purposes.

 I got to rap-clean a great boulder problem in Bishop once.. R/X (though no one will ever fall off this thing).

Called it "High Anxiety".

Didn't break anything that wasn't clearly falling off under weighted pressure.

I think Mick may have mentioned it in one of the latter paper guides for the Happy's, maybe not… it's a liability.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Check out what's laying next to his propane heater.

The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
Chipping's bad, mmkay.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Comforting to know with all my flaws....chipping will never be one of them. :DD
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Feb 21, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
The rock bears witness:

Check out the face by the heelhook at 1:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtSSGs-awug
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Looks like Rock Cricket has summed things up pretty well with some good (and rather entertaining) commentary:

http://rockcricketgbma.blogspot.com/2013/02/notes-from-choss-pile.html

Cheers!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Could have been boiled down to...

One person's desire to climb a line should in no way be placed over the rights of other climbers to use an area.

But whateva.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 22, 2013 - 01:32am PT
in a nutshell
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:16am PT
OK... I propose we ban all rock climbing. We should probably start a petition on whitehouse.gov.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create

I'd put it under 'Environment'... but you could probably make a case for putting the petition under 'Firearms', 'Homeland Security and Disaster Relief', or 'Women's Issues'.
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:25am PT
That last video is better than a comic book.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Bill Ramsey from the ClimbingNarc comments:

Because I have actually written in defense of a limited form of chipping, many people have asked me what I think about this video. So here are my thoughts.
One of the main points I tried to make in my earlier essay is this: most climbers think there is a morally significant difference between the removal of loose rock/vegetation to make something climbable, and the removable of solid rock to make something climbable. And my main point was that I don’t see a sound justification for treating these two things as ethically different. There are not different from the standpoint of ecology or environmental concerns. A principled environmentalism would make no distinction between, on the one hand, scrubbing off lichen, weeds, flaky or crumbly rock, prying off a loose block with a crowbar, or removing rocks or bushes or even trees to improve a landing on the one hand, and chipping a hold to make something climbable on the other hand. If anything, a serious environmentalist might frown more on the former because it includes the killing of a living part of nature. So I find it bizarre that many climbers strongly condemn the latter activity and yet often actually praise the former activity, all the while insisting on a strong commitment to environmentalism.

Now since climbing is akin to a sport, climbers can make up whatever ethical rules they want. The can decree that it is unethical to do a FA on a Tuesday, but OK to do one on a Wednesday. They can stipulate that it is wrong to scrub off bat guano, bur acceptable to scrub off pigeon guano. And they can stipulate that it is wrong it chip a hold, but OK to significantly modify the natural terrain in a lot of other ways to make something go. That is up to us. My point was simply that the last case is similar to the former cases in that there does not seem to be a sound reason for making such a normative distinction.

Having said that, I think there are a whole bunch of legitimate reasons to think that what is going on in the video may be quite wrong. For example, if an area has rules put in place by land managers that stipulate rocks, vegetation and other aspects of the natural terrain should not be altered, then those rules should be followed. But notice that adherence to such rules would preclude scrubbing off lichen and loose rock. There was also somewhere the suggestion that some of the chipping involved altering established problems. If something is an established climb, there are a lot of very good reasons to leave it exactly as it is, and not modify it in any way. Also, in my earlier essay I argued that a natural climb is generally far superior to a manufactured climb, and so I restricted my defense of chipping to sections of rock that are literally impossible in their current form (no matter how good future climbers are). Now if what is being chipped in the video is doable (even if doable in the V-19 range) then I think it should be left alone for that future climber.

Suppose that what was in fact being chipped was not possible, ever. Then what may result from the chipping is a (probably) crappy little boulder problem. But there are lots of crappy little boulder problems around the country that people nonetheless get some enjoyment out of doing. What is odd is the following: Suppose the video showed someone doing a lot of the “legitimate” work that often goes into establishing a problem – someone scrubbing lichen, prying off loose blocks with a crowbar, scraping off dirt and flaky rock, excavating underlying boulders to make a better landing and so on. And suppose the video was presented as a tribute to all the hard work that sometimes goes into a making a quality boulder problem. Then people would actually be celebrating the person in the video, thanking him for his diligence in “doing what it takes” to make a great boulder problem others can enjoy. What is interesting is that such a video might actually depict a much greater modification of the natural terrain than what is shown in the DPM video. If it makes sense to treat that acceptable sort of alteration as praiseworthy and wonderful, then it really doesn’t make sense to treat the chipping as absolutely monstrous. It certainly doesn’t make sense to do so on purely environmental grounds, which is what seems to driving a lot of the anger.

Comically, I just noticed in the November Climbing magazine, on the very first page there is an ad for some alliance between Jeep and the Access Fund, featuring something called the “Conservation Team”. It shows two individuals engaged in what appears to be some significant alteration of a rocky landscape, using a giant pry-bar. Apparently these are the Good Guys, promoting conservation and environmental awareness! Am I the only one who finds all of this a little odd?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 22, 2013 - 09:38am PT
"Bailiff whack his pee pee".
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:00am PT
Funny- I was searching my old posts for a totally unrelated anchor thread over on NooB.com and came across this Ivan Green thread:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1029391;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Evidently Ivan was already proclaimed as "the downfall in climbing" back in 2006 LOL.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Food for thought:
"Suppose the video showed someone doing a lot of the “legitimate” work that often goes into establishing a problem – someone scrubbing lichen, prying off loose blocks with a crowbar, scraping off dirt and flaky rock, excavating underlying boulders to make a better landing and so on. And suppose the video was presented as a tribute to all the hard work that sometimes goes into a making a quality boulder problem. Then people would actually be celebrating the person in the video, thanking him for his diligence in “doing what it takes” to make a great boulder problem others can enjoy. What is interesting is that such a video might actually depict a much greater modification of the natural terrain than what is shown in the DPM video. If it makes sense to treat that acceptable sort of alteration as praiseworthy and wonderful, then it really doesn’t make sense to treat the chipping as absolutely monstrous. It certainly doesn’t make sense to do so on purely environmental grounds, which is what seems to driving a lot of the anger."

Something to consider. But I don't find Jeep and the Access fund paired up odd at all.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:11am PT
Y'alls are getting owned by a self-promoting tool.


There is no such thing as bad publicity. You lose.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Funny- I was searching my old posts for a totally unrelated anchor thread over on NooB.com and came across this Ivan Green thread:

I suspect you're knott quite the "groupie" you were in the good ol' daze? ;-)
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Funny.. Here in 2012 I currently have no idea who Ivan Greene is. I had totally forgotten about him. Evidently I'm not a very good groupie. LOL

Seriously.. I *try* (don't always succeed) to not pass judgement on people I have never met in person, or routes I haven't seen or touched, so I got nothin' on Ivan Green. He's got plenty of people on his case already.

My guess.. he will never chip another hold again.

Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:40am PT
My guess.. he will never chip another hold again.

Somehow I don't think that will happen.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Screenshot from EDELRID's Facebook page...

 <br/>
Excerpt from EDELRID International Facebook page post comments

Excerpt from EDELRID International Facebook page post comments
Credit: Hardman Knott


http://www.edelrid.de/en/sports/sponsoring/athletes/ivan-greene.html
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
I've only met Bill a couple times, and we have enough mutual friends that I consider him good people, but he is wrong here...

A principled environmentalism would make no distinction between, on the one hand, scrubbing off lichen, weeds, flaky or crumbly rock, prying off a loose block with a crowbar, or removing rocks or bushes or even trees to improve a landing on the one hand, and chipping a hold to make something climbable on the other hand. If anything, a serious environmentalist might frown more on the former because it includes the killing of a living part of nature. So I find it bizarre that many climbers strongly condemn the latter activity and yet often actually praise the former activity, all the while insisting on a strong commitment to environmentalism.

The biggest distinction is that rocks don't grow back, ever. Lichens typically reoccupy the cleaned holds within a decade. Plus, they reproduce by asexual fragmentation... so scrubbing lichen is really just an interspecies fukfest.

Trees grow back too, but it is usually illegal to cut down trees on FS land without a permit. If you "need" one cut, may I recommend getting a Christmas Tree permit next December.

Trying to establish an ecological basis for the outrage is silly. Anyone who can't see the ecological impacts of trails, landings, etc is blind. Not to mention the petroleum based foam pads, ropes, cars, etc.

Basically, it boils down to: tread lightly or you jeopardize future access for everyone else... hammers and chisels are not treading lightly. Besides, CREATING holds on a rock you can't climb is weak.




Spare us the "fine line between cleaning and chipping" crap coz. I've developed plenty of areas and it never once crossed my mind to pull out a hammer and chisels. HUGE difference between pulling off a loose flake and repeatedly pounding a chisel into the rock with a sledge hammer.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Just talked to another Gunks guy that has seen Ivan do this in person. Yeah, it's him, and it has been known about for years. Only now did someone think to video the guy to remove all doubt.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Well, now the Pope can relax!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Coz and Dingus. you know and I know that I know that you know that the video was not your normal rout cleaning trundeling gig;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
even I know that!
pelut espania

Big Wall climber
Espania
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
In fact, most routes we all enjoy need some cleaning and yes screw driver and chisels are often used to make the climb something that can be climbed. Desert Shield in JT, was an overhanging wall of frosty, grainy flakes that took me four and a half days to clean. It would have been impossible without the cleaning effort.

Says you mi American dog amigo so nunca come chip and glue in Espania and or see how big and macho man make chipping girls and American glue dogs cry. Viva Espania!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Interesting, there is also a Power of the Choss Compels You thread for people who like to climb on shattered and broken rock for the added challenge ....
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Feb 22, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
I wonder how many climber slamming him would ever even attempt a climb of this difficulty.

He ruined a perfectly good circlehead placement. Now, I can't climb it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
It ain't rocket science, there are no extenuating circumstances, comparative rationales dom't hold a drop of water - the dude boulders with a chalk bag and a sledge as normal accoutrements. Anyone who can't figure out that's just flat out f*#king wrong has almost as many issues as Ivan.

It's no different with ten-gallons-of-epoxy Fairfield - they both no doubt consider themselves artists and the stone their personal canvas. It's more a matter of spending way to much time in front of a mirror and reading their own blogs than something as simple as ethics. Unfortunately, it's most likely an incurable condition.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
If you really haven't established climbs, then maybe you're not qualified to judge.

I've developed plenty... and what is in that video is FAR BEYOND ACCEPTABLE. You can talk all you want about the "fine line" but the fact is, he was nowhere near it.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 22, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
ten-gallons-of-epoxy Fairfield

Why U don't like climbing Gluefas, broseph?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Coz. I have developed pleanty of routs and am a fair hand with a pry bar. this looks totaly diffent to me than trundeling the big scary stuff and trenching the crumbly crap.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
From stripper to chipper?

Nilepoc

Big Wall climber
Tx
Feb 22, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
I was there for the strip and streak for peace. Put my camera right the f down. He needs no more publicity I thought. What a tool. I have to admit though i did photograph him and a friend climbing the bank in salt lake with the world map on it. Cool photos I never did anything with.

I feel shame for loosely participating in his attention whoring. Maybe that is one of the reasons I am so pissed about the chipping besides the fact that he is chipping. I hate chipping.

He still has no response to Pm's btw.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
i did photograph him and a friend climbing the bank in salt lake with the world map on it.

Mugs did that in the 80's (?). I wish I still had that picture... got it from a friend... I think it was in a magazine. If anyone has a copy (of Mugs) I'd be psyched to see it again.
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Says you mi American dog amigo so nunca come chip and glue in Espania and or see how big and macho man make chipping girls and American glue dogs cry. Viva Espania!

i am glad Pelut is back, i've missed him.

Hey Coz, how come us low grade middling talent climbers aren't allowed to sit in judgement of the guy like everyone else? Hell i know chipping and manufacturing when i see it too!
When you allow only the elite to hold opinions it kind of gives you that one percent-er look.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Yes, I was thought Ivan was a self-promoting tool with his hipster attitude and fashion industtry ads.
This pretty much confirms it, and then some.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
the guy thinks he's Michelangelo?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
You can't seriously call yourself a climber and NOT think those holds were completely manufactured. COME ON!

Stop the bullsh#t. This is far beyond "cleaning." far far far far far far beyond.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 22, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
I was just wondering if anyone had seen the hold and knew for sure the damage before roasting him


For Christ's sake what more do you want?

video screen grab - click for full size
video screen grab - click for full size
Credit: Hardman Knott

video screen grab - click for full size
video screen grab - click for full size
Credit: Hardman Knott

video screen grab - click for full size
video screen grab - click for full size
Credit: Hardman Knott

video screen grab - click for full size
video screen grab - click for full size
Credit: Hardman Knott

video screen grab - click for full size
video screen grab - click for full size
Credit: Hardman Knott


Yes, it sure looks like he was using a chisel to clean a hold, but I'll reserve judgement till all the facts are in.

The facts are in - live and in living color.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 22, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
he guy thinks he's Michelangelo?

JM for the win!
bamboo

Trad climber
pike co
Feb 22, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
why do some people try to manufacture middle ground on this BS!?
are some of you so FUGGIN PC that you can abide by this!!the ridge is HUGE!!he can choose between thousands of boulders and crags!!there is no excuse!!NONE!!should he face a fireing squad??NO!!run out of the preserve--you bet!!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 22, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
Bamboo I don't know jack sh#t about where who he is, where he was or any of the climbing. Nothing. Any outrage on my part would be 100% assumed. Why invest moral outrage in such a meaningless gesture, a great sound and fury?

DMT
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 22, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
The dude abides.
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Once you start stripping naked in public to get attention.
You're a pretty hopeless case at that point.
bamboo

Trad climber
pike co
Feb 22, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
100% assumed--as you said
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2013 - 08:34pm PT


Start at :40.

Chisler. Don't call him a Chisler.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 23, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Well, I'd have to say I only climbed at the Gunk's, maybe a hand full of times and really enjoyed it.

I thought the grades were quite soft, however, since I on sighted a 13, that probably would have been 12b in JT.

Well, of course the Gunks are renown for their soft grades...

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 23, 2013 - 12:13am PT
I wonder how many climber slamming him would ever even attempt a climb of this difficulty.

Of what difficulty? How do we know he's even finished building it yet?

Curt
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 23, 2013 - 12:19am PT
I hear Ivans next, PROJECT, is to chip a Via Ferrata route up
the side of El Cap.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 23, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Bill Ramsey:
Because I have actually written in defense of a limited form of chipping, many people have asked me what I think about this video. So here are my thoughts.
One of the main points I tried to make in my earlier essay is this: most climbers think there is a morally significant difference between the removal of loose rock/vegetation to make something climbable, and the removable of solid rock to make something climbable. And my main point was that I don’t see a sound justification for treating these two things as ethically different. There are not different from the standpoint of ecology or environmental concerns. A principled environmentalism would make no distinction between, on the one hand, scrubbing off lichen, weeds, flaky or crumbly rock, prying off a loose block with a crowbar, or removing rocks or bushes or even trees to improve a landing on the one hand, and chipping a hold to make something climbable on the other hand. If anything, a serious environmentalist might frown more on the former because it includes the killing of a living part of nature. So I find it bizarre that many climbers strongly condemn the latter activity and yet often actually praise the former activity, all the while insisting on a strong commitment to environmentalism.

Now since climbing is akin to a sport, climbers can make up whatever ethical rules they want. The can decree that it is unethical to do a FA on a Tuesday, but OK to do one on a Wednesday. They can stipulate that it is wrong to scrub off bat guano, bur acceptable to scrub off pigeon guano. And they can stipulate that it is wrong it chip a hold, but OK to significantly modify the natural terrain in a lot of other ways to make something go. That is up to us. My point was simply that the last case is similar to the former cases in that there does not seem to be a sound reason for making such a normative distinction.

Having said that, I think there are a whole bunch of legitimate reasons to think that what is going on in the video may be quite wrong. For example, if an area has rules put in place by land managers that stipulate rocks, vegetation and other aspects of the natural terrain should not be altered, then those rules should be followed. But notice that adherence to such rules would preclude scrubbing off lichen and loose rock. There was also somewhere the suggestion that some of the chipping involved altering established problems. If something is an established climb, there are a lot of very good reasons to leave it exactly as it is, and not modify it in any way. Also, in my earlier essay I argued that a natural climb is generally far superior to a manufactured climb, and so I restricted my defense of chipping to sections of rock that are literally impossible in their current form (no matter how good future climbers are). Now if what is being chipped in the video is doable (even if doable in the V-19 range) then I think it should be left alone for that future climber.

Suppose that what was in fact being chipped was not possible, ever. Then what may result from the chipping is a (probably) crappy little boulder problem. But there are lots of crappy little boulder problems around the country that people nonetheless get some enjoyment out of doing. What is odd is the following: Suppose the video showed someone doing a lot of the “legitimate” work that often goes into establishing a problem – someone scrubbing lichen, prying off loose blocks with a crowbar, scraping off dirt and flaky rock, excavating underlying boulders to make a better landing and so on. And suppose the video was presented as a tribute to all the hard work that sometimes goes into a making a quality boulder problem. Then people would actually be celebrating the person in the video, thanking him for his diligence in “doing what it takes” to make a great boulder problem others can enjoy. What is interesting is that such a video might actually depict a much greater modification of the natural terrain than what is shown in the DPM video. If it makes sense to treat that acceptable sort of alteration as praiseworthy and wonderful, then it really doesn’t make sense to treat the chipping as absolutely monstrous. It certainly doesn’t make sense to do so on purely environmental grounds, which is what seems to driving a lot of the anger.

No, no, no!

I recall reading Bill Ramsey’s essay in Climbing: Philosophy for Everyone, defending, on much the same grounds, "limited" chipping.

It annoyed me then and it annoys me now to see this cleverly argued opinion (but maybe he's playing devil’s advocate, trolling, if so, you got me pretty good there, Bill!).

What the argument is missing is the motivation of the person wielding a hammer.

1. When a climber is removing lichen or loose flakes on a new route then that climber is trying to get at the “climb” that is there, to reveal it, find it, expose it. By “climb” in this sense I mean the natural challenge of the rock face. A climber “cleaning” is creating a path, a route, up the rock face that will be unencumbered by unpleasant and possibly dangerous hazards and impediments. This is a creative act.

2. An aid climber hammering pitons is doing the same, creating a new (or following an existing) route. Again, this is taking on the natural challenge of the rock face. The style (pitons) may be flawed, but still, damage to the rock is accidental, incidental, much as hiker’s feet cannot help but trample vegetation and soil.

3. Someone “chipping” is deliberately altering the rock face itself. The rock face is there; either climbable, not currently climbable, always cool to see, to admire, the product of eons of erosion, history, a connection with nature. Chipping destroys the challenge of the rock face. It destroys the esthetic value of the rock face. It steals from all of us. The “unclimbable, ever” problem of today might be tomorrow's V17. It’s a destructive act, much like vandalism or graffiti, denying our connection with the natural world.

This is grossly simplified. There's all kinds of shades of gray. There are places where cleaning any vegetation or pounding any pins would be totally inappropriate. There are even places where chipping IS appropriate.

But this ain’t one of them.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 23, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
Bumpity bump for the biggest tool in NY
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 23, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Bill Ramsey: Having said that, I think there are a whole bunch of legitimate reasons to think that what is going on in the video may be quite wrong. For example, if an area has rules put in place by land managers...

Aside from his essay being just a fundamentally tepid and weak overall defense of chipping, this excerpt is especially troubling. Why? Because this kind of manufacturing and altering of rock has been very much on the rise as the climbing demographic has grown over the years and if climbers can't police themselves, and instead require "rules put in place by land managers", then we are more or less doomed by outliers like Greene and Fairfield who will continue to cause the imposition of more and more rules on the sport over time.

It only takes a few guys like these and incidents like Delicate Arch to cause serious access issues, use constraints, and tighter oversight of the sport. Because of that, I see the recording and widespread condemnation of Ivan's activities as a very good thing indeed.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 24, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Crunch,

Your counter points are entirely from a climber's perspective, and therefore don't counter Ramsey's points at all. His points are mainly about the perspective of non-climbers.

Look a the other 'ethical' thread of cleaning massive amounts of greenery off cliffs in Squamish. The OP is pointing out that this is questionable from the non-climbing community perspective. You can look up from your mimi-van at the rock and see the difference from a long way away. Chipped rock under a roof, not so much.

The 'ethics' against chipping are entirely something generated by climbers themselves to police our ranks on the slippery-slope idea to protect ourselves from having our own routes and grades altered after they have been established, protect the future of blank sections for harder ascents, etc. This has nothing to do with a broader concept of environmentalism.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 24, 2013 - 09:44am PT
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie

Feb 24, 2013 - 05:38am PT
There are no ethics in climbing.


Some climbers use the wording Ethical in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.


Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical.

When will we start saying what we mean? "Removing lichen hurts my feelings because we are destroying life?"
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 24, 2013 - 11:39am PT
patrick compton:

“Crunch, Your counter points are entirely from a climber's perspective, and therefore don't counter Ramsey's points at all. His points are mainly about the perspective of non-climbers.”

In the case of the alleged chipping shown in the video and referred to in posts on this thread, few or no non-climbers will notice. Nor, if if the damage is pointed out to them, will they care. The "climbers' perspective" is the only one that is relevant in this particular case.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 24, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Does any climber anywhere know of a case where altering of holds specifically has created adverse effects on climbing access by land managers?

I repeatedly hear this come up in arguments against chipping, but know of no examples of it.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
repeatedly hear this come up in arguments against chipping, but know of no examples of it.

We should ALL work together as a community to keep it that way. Shaming within the community may be the only way with some of the perps.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Feb 24, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Hey Scott,

This jogged my memory of those days.....which isn't an easy thing to do considering the excessive amounts of high grade marijuana I was burning through at the time.

I remember I freed a line in the Valley and Bachar could not do the move, he beat on the grainy pocket with the end of his tooth brush till he could get the hold to work.

I believe it was on a route at Reeds if I'm not mistaken. i never was on the route so I can only say what I remember hearing, but wasn't the hold you speak of more of a pain tolerance thing? One pad splitting Pirahna tooth crystal in the interior of the pocket. I'm not saying that this makes what John did acceptable, (especially if it changed the grade) because even comfortizing can be a slippery slope, but if what John did with his toothbrush was chipping, then what Ivan is doing in the video is chipping times a hundred.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
So obviously it wasn't anything like what Ivan is accused of.

Dude, wake up! Accused of?!?! Stop obfuscating the issue... watch the fuqin video again. It don't matter who done it or when, it is blatant chipping and not even close to "cleaning."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
If I'm banging a rock with a hammer and chisel to create holds so I can climb a boulder... feel free to judge the sh#t out of me.
Guernica

climber
right there, right then
Feb 24, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Dingus:

"Some climbers use the wording Ethical in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.


Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical."

Off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that ethics isn't quite as ambiguous as you say. It refers to the *ethos* governing the behavior of a particular community. Which makes this pretty cut-and-dried. If chipping, or whatever, is contrary to the prevailing spirit of the community it is by definition unethical.

Morality is a trickier concept, but not what we're talking about here.

So yes, this is unethical.

edit: how do you make the little box-thing to indicate someone else's quote?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Guernica,

Oh yes, people have their systems of ethics or religions if you Will and you can study them. But should you study some philosophy on ethics you will find two things:

1. None of them are consistent.

2. There are no ethical "oughts" or said in another way "...from purely a priori grounds" i.e. you have to choose as to how you want to the world to act.

For an easy but long winded take on this CF: Questions of Value Patrick Grimm, The Teaching Company.

Yes, superficially the one system you like seems good to you but all have serious failings. And this allows you to say that those not doing things the way you think is ethical is unethical. Ethics is CRAP.

To edit in quotes use an item (tool) from the blue line above the text entering box.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 24, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
None of them are consistent.

Maybe you can set me straight... teach me something...

But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.

As is damaging/stealing the property of others for personal benefit.


Funny because I remember a party where I jokingly said "there is no wrong, there is no right... only pleasure and pain" quoting Jane's Addiction... which set Prof. Ramsey into a 30+ min lecture that included female genital mutilation and rape. I was pretty drunk and my dad was busy kicking the bucket 5 hours away, but I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.
ruppell

climber
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
I'm pretty sure he was arguing that there is in fact a distinction between wrong and right.

There is. Society creates them. We climbers create our values. As climbers we think chipping is wrong(at least most of us). So there is a wrong and there is a right. In this case Ivan is plain wrong. If it was even close to a 40/60 percent way of thinking then you could use other arguements to bolster that it might have been right. Fact is that in most climbers eyes it's not right. So the debating that needs to be done here isn't whether it's acceptable or unacceptable. We just need to figure out the punishment for said crime. I'm pretty sure the public humiliation will suffice is this case. I wonder if his lawyer is gonna release that statement this year? LOL
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 24, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
"ethics" may be too strong a word but its the word we use. Don't damage anything, because it doesnt belong to you and other people have the right to enjoy it without all your bolts, chisel scars and glue. It's not like you're going up Mt Everest walking by all these dying people, that's real ethics, but you're still damaging something that's been in a natural state for millions of years. It's a good ethic but nothing compared to blasting away the side of a mountain to put in a highway, or for that matter, whoever built highway 120 damaged a lot of pristine wilderness and then opened the floodgates to tourism. I think you probably have a bigger impact on the environment in other ways, ie from the products you buy, garbage you make etc.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:05am PT
Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:54am PT
Wow, he has some kind of Tlingit tattoo on his back? So spiritual dude.


My Indian friend weeps.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:57am PT
"if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago"
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:01am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jqR4MkYgGM
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:03am PT
interesting side note: some of the hardest routes (listed in the guidebook) at the gunks were chipped

http://books.google.com/books?id=9-npVkicu9wC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=was+gunks+twilight+zone+chiseled&source=bl&ots=bWOTYIibUC&sig=unJ5JKU_OBui1azYk0ikQfhUUqk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l_onUcSoEous8ATgw4HgCw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=was%20gunks%20twilight%20zone%20chiseled&f=false
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:17am PT

But I'm pretty sure killing others for personal benefit is universally considered immoral.

Unless you are cheney and Halliburton, then you can do it with taxpayer funding.

Dingus McGee,

Don't try to explain relativism and reason to this crowd, These are types that pound pitons with a hammers on desert vertical towers while tourists at the base while complaining about a random chossy boulder in the woods in NY. They do the Nose, but ignore the fact that it would go if it hadn't been chipped.

But hey, all climbing 'ethics' are local, right? Unless it is a crappy video, released by a half-rate mag tying to claw it's way up by being the new People magazine of the climbing world (Ivan EXPOSED), then then we can make universal assumptions and start flinging virtual interweb poo.
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:20am PT
climbers are a sanctimonious lot?

no way!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:30am PT
merchrist,

Learn the difference between morality and ethics. Morality has to do with when to kill, an entirely different matter than when to chisel.

patrick compton gets it right when he says, "... ethics are local." Climbing eithixs tries to regulate the almost intangibles yet ignores the obvious shades of its ingnorance.

GET THIS STRAIGHT: The filmed chiseler has climbing ethics BUT they are different than what some of you rant about.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:56am PT
Always good to know who's lost all perspective along with Ivan.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Again, it ain't rocket science - if you boulder with a sledge, you lost all perspective long ago.

Ha, awesome.

Say what you will about Ivan Greene but after watching a few of his vids posted here he is undoubtedly a self absorbed knob of the highest order.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:10am PT
healyje,

you live in bubble, but you are just beginning to feel it's boundaries of the confined narrow world view you entertain.,

View Ivan work as heavy hold enhancement techniques whereas light hold enhancement techniques would be using a stiff wire brush.

And OR some people do boulder with a wire brush while some climbers climb with a hammer but to you and a few others cannot let Ivan boulder with a sledge.

Hey old man take a look at Your Life.... yours is a lot like mine

Go listen to Neil Young
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:25am PT
Dingus, the boulders don't belong to Ivan. They are not his to alter as he pleases.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Dropline,

neither do the pinnacles climbers clean and trundle rocks from nor the cracks they clean with a hammer.

Your boundaries are artificial.

WE climbers seem to think this is our resource for the type of alteration we want?
OR

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:53am PT
Dingus, what are your boundaries in creating boulder problems?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:54am PT
Things are a bit different here in NY. It's on state owned land where such alteration is a violation of land use policy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:59am PT
Dingus doesn't see boundaries, only an infinite sea of featureless gray.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:04am PT
healyje

Trad climb,

Yes a continuum, a concept you are clueless about.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Dingus doesn't see boundaries, only an infinite sea of featureless gray.

Take the Blue Pill Healy, the climbing world isn't as black and white as one would like to think it is.

My personal pet peeve: chain anchors on a trad climb that somehow fits into 'leave no trace' ethics.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:34am PT
Peter, is that an original watercolor? Or an out-of-focus chipping incident?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:36am PT
No pill necessary, basic common sense is all that is required.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:40am PT
healyje,

your answer begs the question. Have you taken a dose of common sense or its too weak of a medicine for one with brain-lock?
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Don, this is a digital creation of backhoes trenching out the Great White Book on Stately Pleasure Dome above Tenaya Lake. You could call it a fictive chipping incident, yes. A Reductio ad Absurdum, if you will. Once the principle is established for chipping and gymnification of natural rock, let's get off the pot and get real and just do it right; let's just trench away for christ's sake. Let's bring together those petroglyph thieves from the East Side with modern excavating techniques. Then we will really have something.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Feb 25, 2013 - 10:45am PT
A number of posts back Kevin (The Warbler) posted a very valid question if anyone knew of a climbing area that has been closed as a result of chipping. While I am not aware of any such closure, I can state with certainty that many land managers/owners specifically consider this type of activity (rock alteration) to be totally inappropriate, so there is always a risk of such a closure. I surely would hate to have an area where I want to climb to be closed for this reason in the future. The video talks of the boulder being chipped as being on "public land" in New York. Climbers from this region are, or should be, well aware of the very difficult,long-lasting, and on-going efforts to expand climbing opportunities in New York state parks---places like Minnewaska State Park, adjacent to the Mohonk Preserve in the Gunks, and Thacher State Park outside of Albany, for example. There is no doubt that incidents such as this, if they become known to the responsible state officials, would very negatively effect our chances of success in these efforts.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Yes, once the chipped hold gets chalk on it, it looks much more natural.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:08am PT
yep, Rifle and Maple would look a lot different without chalk!
WBraun

climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:21am PT
The whole argument of this is only based on this guy denying he's chipping and manufacturing holds.

Not about the ethics.

The guy is clearly chipping and manufacturing.

That is complete fact beyond all doubt.

The ethical arguments are completely separate issues which you all are going in every direction.

But beyond all doubt he's chipping and manufacturing holds with sledge hammer and chisel.

Some will say this acceptable according to certain circumstances.

Some will say it's never acceptable ever.

Some will say there's shades of gray.

Have at it kids ..... it's your world and you make it what it is ......
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Healyj likes to make up his own ethics.
Like putting bolted anchors in the middle
of a crack pitch and gluing loose holds on 5.7s.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 11:38am PT
Some people are stuck cooped indoors with their fat wives all winter and have to log online to bitch at people to feel better.

I think if I posted this mid-july it would get a vastly different response.


Go on a hike, guys, or go rock climbing... sheesh.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:45am PT

"Some people are stuck cooped indoors with their fat wives all winter"...


IF I posted that SAME line, quite a few would no doubt give me a load of DOO DOO...

;-)




EDITED:

"I'm not pointing to anyone in particular"...

I wouldn't have to be either...

Hypocrites abound!!!...

LOL!!!...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 11:47am PT
I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, just the image I have in my brain of what anonymous online a-holes must be like.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Learn the difference between morality and ethics. Morality has to do with when to kill, an entirely different matter than when to chisel.
Emphasis YOURS.

Dingus, learn to stop making up your own definitions. You can't just change the meaning of words to fit your needs and then claim others don't know what they mean... that's immoral.

Moral: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral

No mention of kill in there anywhere.

What Ivan did was immoral, i.e. it was not conforming to a standard of right behavior.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Feb 25, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Ironically, all the fuss and publicity that internet discussions like this bring make it far more likely that land managers will take notice of hold alteration and take action, if they ever do at all, and as far as that goes, nobody posting here knows of that ever happening.

So the effort to shame the perpetrator into desisting, which his critics are enthusiastically attempting to do here, actually increases the likelihood that their liberties, which they fear he is threatening, will actually be taken away.

Hmmmm....
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 25, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
So this is what happens, when the guys who should be snowboarding take up climbing! LOL
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
its nice and fun to think climbing is important and significant and its always a lot of fun to manufacture outrage over morally ambiguous sh#t
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 25, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PztgWdMEJdg
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
its always a lot of fun to manufacture outrage over morally ambiguous sh#t

I know!

Like that time I added bolts to B-Y. It isn't like I even changed any of the holds. Or that time I couldn't get my fingers under the Great Roof. A couple swings of the hammer and BAM... 5.7 traverse that anyone can do. You are welcome.

Totally ambiguous.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Ironically, all the fuss and publicity that internet discussions like this bring make it far more likely that land managers will take notice of hold alteration and take action, if they ever do at all, and as far as that goes, nobody posting here knows of that ever happening.

So the effort to shame the perpetrator into desisting, which his critics are enthusiastically attempting to do here, actually increases the likelihood that their liberties, which they fear he is threatening, will actually be taken away.

Hmmmm....

That argument can be turned on its head, Warbler. If such behavior is ignored it will lead to more chipping, by more people, in more places.

Given the level of anger and condemnation that always ensues, I'm amazed that any climbers would think it's okay to do what's going on in the video. Yet, once a decade or so, this kind of controversy erupts.

To ignore it is to encourage more climbers to act the same way. Eventually something will be noticed by non-climbers. And what's our response then, with widespread chipping all over our crags and boulders?

Or else some well-meaning but misguided person, encouraged by the lack of condemnation, carves a couple jugs on some iconic boulder problem, like, say, Midnight Lightning. You expect climbers to keep quiet then? What does the Access Fund, our representatives, for better or worse, say then?

Climbing ethics or rules or guidelines or morals, call 'em what you will, are flawed and imperfect but they are all we have for negotiating our access.

Unpleasant though the whole ordeal is for Ivan Greene (who I've never met, is being somewhat scapegoated here, and is probably a fine person in real life), and though this fuss does potentially attract land managers' attention, I think the community's condemnation to the video is appropriate.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
mechrist,

of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior

Now understand this: deciding whether to kill or not falls into this category!

Go ask your petit dictionary what is the difference between ethical decisions and moral decisions?

You have not done this. D- incomplete
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
I don't have the guide, but Rock Cricket says...

Bouldering in the Shawangunks 2nd edition, Ivan Greene & Marc Russo

"ETHICS AND UNDERSTANDINGS:
Keep it simple. Leave the rocks the way they are. No chipping, filling, sculpting, etc. of anything on the boulders.."


He states what constitutes ethical conduct in a guidebook. I have to assume that reflects his own moral beliefs because I don't have enough evidence (or desire) to call him a blatant liar. He then violates those ethics, not once but several times, not openly but secretly. And you are claiming that doesn't fall under "immoral behavior?"

Fuking philosophers!

edit: If his lawyer releases a statement that says he believes he did nothing wrong, I will concede. Until then, consider the evidence.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
I just realized this was at the Gunks. It's totally unacceptable, since that area is always at risk and the best part, skytop, is closed to climbing. This is from the second link in the OP:

One such instance happened last year in the 'Gunks, a popular bouldering area in New York State. ... Other local climbers began noticing that the project wasn't the only one that got chipped in the area. Another local stated, "We started to see these problems that were completely manufactured- like every hold. It was happening all over. We had suspicions about who it was, but there isn't exactly a police force in the boulders to prevent this stuff from happening."
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
merchrist

all this talk is heresy. Get a take on what is admissible evidence if you seriously want to convince.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not to claim what you make up as fact.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
So Dingus McGee, you're defending his actions?
Sorry, don't have time to read the thread.
Looks clear "cut" to me, but I've only been at this for 36 years, so what do I know?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Not true Dingus. The video would be admissible against Ivan Greene and could be authenticated by anyone who could identify those boulders. They don't have to have seen the chipping, just the boulders. That's how authentication of photos and videos works under the federal rules of evidence.

* For example, its common to take a picture of a traffic intersection, then someone testifies that this is an accurate photo of it, but that person didn't actually see the accident that occurred there. If there were skid marks on the pavement, he could authenticate them too, if he saw them.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
hahahaaaaa... now the issue is whether it is admissible evidence.... pathetic.

This isn't a court of law and even if it were, I'm guessing it would still be admissible evidence. This is a community discussing the IMMORAL behavior of someone caught on video damaging a shared resource. You don't even have to be a climber to know that what he did was wrong. And you have to be pretty dense or in a state of perpetual confusion to pretend it was not a moral transgression.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Don Paul,

Whoa, they can say this looks like the boulders in such and such a place.

But they fail when ask whether they know the movie took place when the boulder chipping took place. i.e. you need to establish that in fact the closeup of the chiseling was on these boulders at this time. A movie does not establish such coherence.

But then in fact when they say they seen all this we have way more than a movie, we have the testimony!! And that is what I said in the first place.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
survival,

what have you been at for 36 years? chipping, looking for chipping. Please give me a clue.

I have no need to defend his actions for I do not think the movie established the degree of coherence to convict.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
i.e. you need to establish that in fact the closeup of the chiseling was on these boulders at this time.

No you don't! There is no reason you have to establish that the particular holds at the end of the video were created by the actions in the video.

You only have to establish that he is using chisels and a sledge to damage the rock and sculpt the holds. That is clearly established in the video.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
If removing a half pound of rock with a hammer and chisel is immoral to you, then google trundling videos.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
While I understand Warbler's concern, I totally agree with Crunch's evaluation. While there is risk in exposing our dirty laundry, there is a greater risk in not acting to stop it---and public exposure within the community is the best--legal--way of doing this.

In response to Dingus, while this matter shouldn't be "thread-drifted" into an evidence seminar, evidentiary issues do happen to be a topic I know something about. Don is correct, the video, ideally authenticated by the person who shot it, would definitely be admissible evidence in a court proceeding.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:16pm PT

"I surely could not please myself except when I masterbated in private or with the locker."...

Well, if you want to join me...

you'd better hurry up because...







































I'm done!!!...






































15 seconds later:


I'm done again...
















































10 seconds later and YEP!!!...


Done AGAIN!!!...






Might be best to wait for another opportunity...



Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Alan Rubin,

exactly as I said, it is the person's testimmony that carries far more weight than a movie.

With his testimony you don't need the movie.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
"While there is risk in exposing our dirty laundry, there is a greater risk in not acting to stop it...." ~ POPE BENEDICT XVI

No wait, that was some guy on supertopo talking about chipping holds!
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Feb 25, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Alan Rubin,

you can be assured that the wimpmasters WILL go to the land managers and use big Government to hedge their point.

They are victims of every sort of real and imagined calamity to their public land.

I suspect a land manger would read this thread and laugh. It's job fare for them.

And ironically these wimpmasters are in our group. Let the folly roll on!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
The comments here are pretty tame compared to the ones on the video and article in the OP. Ivan Greene made things worse with his response, which is the top listed comment on the video:

Just because it is his name doesn't mean its him... that poster even spelled it wrong, probably just someone trolling for drama.

Learn to be skeptical on the internet. ;D
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
"While there is risk in exposing our dirty laundry, there is a greater risk in not acting to stop it...." ~ POPE BENEDICT XVI

huh, never thought Child Rape was just 'dirty laundry.'
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
That was also signed "Ivan Green" so either he does not know how to spell his last name, he made a typo, or it weren't him.

I have yet to see anything official from Ivan.



coz, reenforcing a hold for preservation purposes is different than chipping holds into the rock. It is usually ugly and definitely unnecessary. I lost all psyche for one of the raddest caves in Utah when a friend got super motivated and put up tons of new lines... with a shocking number of the grips consisting almost entirely of glue. I like to think the fumes got to him because he really is a super nice guy and I've never heard a bad word said about him. But in my opinion those routes are not worth my time.

BUT, reinforcing Maple choss is entirely different than making holds in solid grainite with a chisel and hammer, especially when the guidebook you helped to write clearly says it is inappropriate.

And STFU with the cammo bullsh#t. Chipping holds is for pussies who don't know how to climb... simple as that.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Now your saying glueing is okay.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said...

It is usually ugly and definitely unnecessary
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Apologies, I think the quote I posted was mis-attributed to Ivan Greene so I deleted it. It's at the very top of the comments and lots of people responding but I agree it's probably fake. I wouldn't want to be him now anyway.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Put your glasses on and read it again dude.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
blah blah blah

Exactly what I was thinking.

There is an "un" in front of every "necessary" I typed regarding glue. Get it yet? Go have a beer and chill out.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Having reinforced a hold with glue, on Desert Shield in JT, BITD.

Coz, you need to git yer ass over there and finish gluing. Might be about 20 yrs late, but still...that pile has great climbing on shitty rock. It's had stuff breaking off ever since it went up.

I'm not big on glue, but you didn't go nearly far enough with the glue on that one (if the intention was for a sustainable, repeatable route).
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
i get it you are reinforcing holds

Nope, you don't get it. I am not reinforcing holds and I make it a point to avoid reinforced, glued, or chipped holds.

Seriously man, you need to learn to read if you are going to play here on the interwebs.

I never ONCE condoned gluing. I never once said it was "necessary." I said it was "UNNECESSARY." Here, does this help...

I DO NOT CONDONE GLUING OR CHIPPING. AND NEVER SAID I DO.



I find it amusing that you made all that up in your head and just roll with it. Feel free to delete your obvious misunderstanding to save face, I don't mind.
OR

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
You better be laughing when you say STFU to my face, otherwise you could loose your life.

hahahahaHAHAHAHa here we go. A death threat?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Go have a beer and chill out.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
I've been trying to find where Wes said he was into gluing holds
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
It is entirely different. One is gluing, one is chipping. It doesn't mean I condone either. They are both disgusting and I have never indicated otherwise.

And if that was your premise, why did you misquote my other statement?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
You see, Kenny, it's much more fun to view life in black and whites rather than the reality of the grey it is.

It is either ALL TERRIBLE and worthy of death, or it is common practice and should be done every day. Often, people cannot live unless rules are set out plain and simple for everyone to follow.

Glue on El Cap is like glue at new jack city is like glue at a quarry.

or at least, these are the arguments of people that don't actually do any rock climbing.

kind of reminds me of being 15 and talking to my friends about girls. Everyone is an expert in something they know nothing about :)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
heh. loose.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Wes seems to have a pretty loose life already.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
MOK, I don't know about WY but in NY chiseling is vandalism.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
kind of reminds me of being 15 and talking to my friends about girls. Everyone is an expert in something they know nothing about :)

That almost sent my coffee out my nose!

John
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
MOK, the cammo thing is lame. Is it ok to steal from the elderly if you are stealthy and do it in a way they don't recognize? Did you rape your dates in college after spiking their drinks with ruffees? I mean really, your dates wouldn't know. Ruffees make for good cammo, no?

Don't be lame.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Oprah and Rosanne are entirely different... doesn't mean I think it is appropriate for anyone to do them.

Heroin and crack are entirely different... doesn't mean either of them are acceptable.

Murder and arson... hopefully you get the point by now... but I suspect you don't.

How's that beer?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Except for you are damaging someone elses property, or public property, and jeopardizing access for the rest of us. And so the rest of us may reap what you sow.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
I drive the speed limit on the freeway.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
MOK:
Dropline,

you swallowed the bait.

How so if it is undetectable?
---------------------------


Because you are here online telling property owners and land managers that boulderers, and maybe other climbers too, can't be trusted to be respectful of land management policies. That they need to be watched at every moment or they will violate policy and permanently alter rock, and they will be willfully deceptive about it.

In short, you are a poster child for why climbers should be denied access.

Nice work.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
ss kludge
ss kludge
Credit: kennyt
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Apparently I'm a trollee
OR

Trad climber
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
death threat? A line from the novel, The Virginian,.

No, I think you are refering to.." When you call me that, smile"

Is that what you meant?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
MOK, you have no idea.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
I never drive over the speed limit. In fact a lot of times I'll try to block other people to stop them from speeding. Same things goes for cutting into the line. Public safety, with no TOOLS required.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
MOK:
again please tell me how you detect the undetectable?

I know what a good camo job can hide and how to make them look natural.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Who needs to detect anything? You are brazenly displaying your lack of respect for private and public property right here and now, and your words will be searchable for a very long time.

If climbers like you are out there, why would any property owner, or land manager, want to allow climbers anywhere near their land?

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
survival,

what have you been at for 36 years? chipping, looking for chipping. Please give me a clue.

Climbing boulders, cliffs, walls and mountains, among other things.

I never found any need to manufacture holds. Of course, I only climbed 5.12 and had no sponsors, so I didn't feel the need to manufacture a career either.

As far as whether he was "cleaning" or "manufacturing", it sounded to me as though those hammer/chisel blows were directed against solid stone, not hollow or loose flakes. Those were serious and expensive tools he was employing. Cleaning my ass....
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Whatever MOK. You have no idea how landowners and land managers in NY feel about this or how they would, or will, respond, especially seeing that you live out in Cheneyland.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
The bottom line is a glaring deficit of imagination and creativity.



"His best climbs are monuments to the human spirit, pivotal ascents that reorient and redefine the game. Because of this, he's a symbolic ambassador for everyone who owns a rope and a pair of boots. "
-John Long


The opposite also holds true.

...............................

Bravo and many thanks to the dude(s) that took the video. You did right by bringing this public instead of trying to reason with an (immature?) offender lost inside a bad ego trip or conversely escalating into fisticuffs.
This sort of egregious chipping and sculpting degrades and diminishes the vibe of climbing, it degrades and diminishes our natural environment, it charts a dangerous trajectory with land managers, and it sets a bad example (let's hope Mr. Greene's behavior does not influence crews of gym-bred teenagers armed with packs full of sledge hammers and cold chisels thinking that it's quite alright to hack away with abandon at the rock).

Mr. Greene has accomplished nothing so much as to degrade Nature by reducing it to a projection of his own unremarkable limitations. The result is a permanent monument to his own shortcomings: his lack of imagination, lack of creativity, lack of skill, and lack of vision. Nothing noteworthy entrains from casually degrading wild and unpredictable Nature until it mirrors a version of one's familiar over-determined indoor playpens.

We learn and grow as much from our failures as from our successes: there is never anything close to futile about climbing if approached with honesty and consciousness. This of course assumes one comes to the rock with a receptive mind, a spirit of discovery, and something to learn, rather than coming to the rock with something to prove and a desire to take regardless of the price or consequences.

You don't have to 'go big, or go home': you simply have to be for real.

This is a terrible embarrassment.


I hope Mr. Greene learns something from this unfortunate episode. Rather than live in denial … and painful as it may be for him, I do hope that he summons the courage to man up and admit that he made a mistake so that there's something positive and productive for both himself and the climbing community to gain from this.



Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Signing off now. Chipping is bad. Show a little respect for your fellow climbers.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
If someone gave me some good VALID reasons for chipping,
maybe just maybe I'd change my opinion on chipping.

I wonder what Valid reasons Ivan has for his chipping practices?
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
What valid reason does he have for chipping?

His fat fingers only fit on 1 inch holds.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
^^^^^
Nope. Not a Valid reason.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
"John Wayne never wore lycra."
Ron Kauk


"John Gill never chipped holds"
Survival


End of f*#king story.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
He thinks it's like a rock gym, where route setting is part of the game?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 25, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
^^^^^ Not valid.
Real Rock should be Natural route setting.
ie: climb what's there.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Lovegas,

Ever put up a new route or boulder problem? If not, keep kissing the pillow with the rest of the 15 year olds.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 25, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
I only chisel when the holds are really small and uncompfortable.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 25, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
MOK, how many landowners and/or land managers do you know in the gunks?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
Master of Kludge- wow, are u saying that u condone chipping? I just don't get your angle here, help us out? What's all this stupid camo talk? You are kinda coming off like a bit of a weirdo here dragging this thing along with all of your not so subtle statements glamorizing a coward's act. Maybe you're just trolling or maybe you are truly this douchebag character that you portray here on this thread? Maybe both, either way I mostly agree with Wes here.


Chipping holds is for pussies who don't know how to climb... simple as that.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
MoK, stick to the Gym. You can manufacture what ever climb you want.

Leave the real rock for the real men and women.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
i wanna be a cop,
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 25, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
It's been a week, and noone has confronted him - No confession?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:35am PT
"John Gill never chipped holds"
Survival

Except for that one time, of course :-)

Curt
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:18am PT
MOK, thanks for the response. I'm still not convinced on your justification but I also don't see the world thru your eyes, maybe u drill pockets in some quarry heap? Maybe u wreck holds on existing routes because you can't do them? I am not privy to your motives or what you have done. Thru my eyes I cant seem to understand why u think your affinity for cheating would be worth mentioning on here? Are you hoping for some sort of "chipper's unite!" to take place?? Haha Good luck!!

All seems a little strange to me. As to would a coward confess?? I don't know, but I think rather than chipping or confessing you'd be better off making yourself strong enough to do the climbs you want to do in the state that they're in. That is exactly what a coward would not do- leave the project for someone better.Your "confessing" appears to be more for attention than anything else anyways, sorry- far from heroic. I also don't think anyone is trying to give you validity, only suggesting that what you are doing is little kid toy sh#t & that you need to get with the program. That's what I'm telling you at least but you seem pretty happy about the way things are & I guess for you that's all that matters so party on!

There's heaps of chipped routes out there, relics from a bygone era. Canvases from selfish artists who didn't actually know how to paint without numbers.

These days do we really need more??

And as for you thinking about a road chip up here, yes ur right- super low angle everywhere here & everything worth chipping has already been chipped.
Juicer

Trad climber
SLC
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:59am PT
At least climbing isn't getting totally normalized by the mainstream.

Kludge Master is painting little spots with his oil paints and what not, diddling away at some remote, defenseless crag in Wyoming that know one knows about. At some level, he'd like to see more people climb his routes.

Ivan wears elbow length gloves, alternating between missing the end of the chisel and beating the crap out of the rock with his mini sledge. Stashing his Harbor Freight tools here and there, he engages in xtra-normal battles with others in his community.

Everyone's got their style, but at some point it's just poor form that isn't justified by some personal or professional philosophy. It's relative to the rock quality, the sensibilities of the community, and land management.

If the rock is good, and you have no control in the moment, best to limit yourself to the toothbrush.

OR

Trad climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Camo job...bwaahahahaha
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:04am PT
When I first saw this thread, I thought the question was, is bouldering climbing and do boulderers have to obey rock climbing rules? I was willing to say, boulders are not the same kind of valuable resource as rock climbing routes, and it really doesn't bother me what people do to them. Clear out all the underbrush, chip and glue holds wherever you want them to be, cover the rock with chalk patterns, and hang out smoking dope with your boom box and radical clothing. Actually that's all fine with me, as long as the property owner doesn't care. But if this guy's doing this at the Gunks, someone should send the video to the mohonk trustees, explain that climbers TOOK the video because they're trying to help protect the preserve, and hopefully they'll bust this guy for trespassing and vandalism.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Huh? Master of kludge got banned for chipping?? That's pretty awesome actually.
WBraun

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
LOL

How draconian ....
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
that guy needed a hug.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
I just wonder if the Master of Kludge was Ivan Greens
CAMO Avatar?
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:45pm PT


Does anyone have a clue as to why Master of Kludge got the BOOT???...

I didn't see anything offensive on this thread...

???...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Seemed like a perfect gentleman to me.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
It probably didn't have a whole lot to do with his views on chipping but rather had to do with MOK telling someone if they said STFU to his face they might lose their life.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
To be fair, he said they would loose their life...
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:55pm PT

"but rather had to do with MOK telling someone if they said STFU to his face they might lose their life."...


I didn't see that one and suppose it could be the cause for the BOOT...

Threats of violence aren't really too cool...

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 26, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Ban all chippers!
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
How do we know Kludge is banned?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Member profile information for Master of Kludge is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:04pm PT

Maybe not BANNED...

But DEACTIVATED for sure...

"Member profile information for Master of Kludge is shown below. This member's account has been deactivated."...



jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
My experience with the Mohonk Preserve ( then called Mohonk Trust) when managed by Dan Smiley was that they felt very strongly that problems were best solved by the climbers. If at all possible.

Now listen to me. Whenever it became apparent this was not in the cards, The Preserve was not at all afraid to solve the problem using all necessary means.

All necessary means.

They are not the National Park Service.

The Preserve has almost a 150 year history acting as a most gracious host.




Climbers need to solve this problem.

Edit:
Public humiliation comes to mind if one considers that a weapon they themselves would use. If one does not consider that to be appropriate, there are other better approaches.

In 1970 on another much bigger problem I was advised to use public humiliation. I did not.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
...and solving the problem apparently means public humiliation
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Ivan should be punished. Made to read this entire thread. however that would be cruel and unusual punishment.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
I think a heartfelt "I fuked up BAD" from Ivan would be a good start.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
That's probably all he has to do is promise to stop doing it, otherwise the result could be quite negative as John Stannard warns. (forget what I wrote before about involving trustees, that was a bad idea) I think he's lost so much credibility that he has to do this anyway. He's not going to impress anyone with his chipped problems so why keep doing it?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
I think a heartfelt "I fuked up BAD" from Ivan would be a good start.

Oh, like a politician would? Great idea, and maybe DPM could have contacted him ahead of time and given him the chance to do that without releasing the video... like one would do for a public figure.

Nope, a lot more fun to promote the hype and try to get more readership for your little mag

... and drag Ivan and sport through the mud.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
John, the problem is Ivan won't listen to others. Unfortunately he will have to be dealt with as Ken Nichols was, meaning arrest and prosecution and a restraining order. Only then might he change his ways.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
The preserve needs to call a meeting about this as soon as possible, and we need to call them and express our concern so that they realize that we care about it and call such a meeting. There has to be some laws for this kind of thing. The Preserve has banned people from the Gunks before. I think they should have a meeting with people like this, find out who else knows about it, and who else is doing it, and ban all of them from the Gunks for at least three years so they can think about it, after which they can put up a bond for $1000.00. And then after 10 years, then perhaps the bond could be reduced to a lesser amount. If we do nothing the clipping will continue, it seems that it is an unstoppable habit now, like some kind of addiction.

In the past I have seen people using hooks and aid climbing, chipping off holds at the Uberfall, I told the ranger about it sitting not far off, he said there was no policy to enforce. I picked up a rock and told them that I was going to knock them out if they did not get off the rock. This is why there is a part of the hold missing on one of the Gill problems.

But I am not perfect either, but I can say that I have learned the hard way. As far as I know I was the *first* to have chipped holds. In the middle of the Near Trapps I pried a rotten piece of rock out of a crack with the end of a Chouinard hammer so I could place a small friend. This written up in a climbing magazine, [Pox in Vulgaria -- The Profit of Impurism A Commentary by Mark Robinson. This article was featured in Climbing Magazine in 1977.] where I was rightly publicly humiliated and ostracized by the climbing community. And I am very sorry about it, even to this day. Thankfully, I have been forgiven.

So, having been forced to do a lot of soul searching and thinking about the subject back in the 70's, I can say that I came to realize that, this is not the right thing to do. Sculpting rock the same way people do in a climbing gym is wrong, even if it means only using a crow bar, even if it is on Twilight Zone. If it is OK to chip in one place, it is OK to chip in another, and then there is no end to it. The reason we come up to the Gunks is to get away from this kind of stuff, isn't it? So I hope we are going to try and put a stop to this now.

Donald is this the post you mean? Apparently the Mohonk Trustees are already involved. As a follow up post said, they've been in touch with Mr. Greene.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
No ... could you deal with the argument on Gunks.com? I don't want to repost the thread here, or argue out of context with the thread. After all, it is a Gunks problem, there are a lot of old timers on it who should not be without your argument. What do you think?

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/67437/Uh_Oh_Video_Chipping_in_NY#Post67437
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
It's a quote from gunks.com. What are you talking about?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Don Paul, a word to the wise. Donald Perry likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Donald quote from gunks.com "I like to argue a lot".
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 26, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
I think Donald is refering to this post, basically the last one on page 7:

Because Ivan is at least making his own climbs, not taking down other peoples routes using hooks and chipping off holds because he is aiding free climbs. Like those two bumbling fools I yelled at on Uberfall boulder problems who put up a fight.

The time to voice an opinion actually was a long time ago, but you guys said nothing. Can we really complain now?, this kind of behavior has been grandfathered in. Ivan is a result of the environment you created. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged , yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him: But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God."

Who thinks it's a good idea to go back up on Twilight Zone and put back a stone in that hole they chiseled out and make it as it was before? No bucket, just a little crack big enough to get a vertical edge.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
The argument is that someone should have stopped him sooner? Or that the Bible says its too late to complain? I don't think he's "grandfathered in", whatever that means. I dont think the ethics at the Gunks could change like that overnight.
defective detective

Trad climber
da gunks
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
it is important for every village to once in a while pick up torches and pitchforks and to go after monsters that have been created by other men

good work by the mob here and they can all pat themselves on the back for agreeing this is somehow actually important

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Jstan wrote:
My experience with the Mohonk Preserve ( then called Mohonk Trust) when managed by Dan Smiley was that they felt very strongly that problems were best solved by the climbers. If at all possible.

Now listen to me. Whenever it became apparent this was not in the cards, The Preserve was not at all afraid to solve the problem using all necessary means.

All necessary means.



Now things get more interesting ... and potentially more real.




The Mohonk Preserve channeling Malcom X(?):








Removing digits?


Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 26, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
"I think you guys, lovegasoline, Cosmiccragsman and all are missing something.

http://gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php/topics/67437/Uh_Oh_Video_Chipping_in_NY#Post67437

Can you answer this thread?"






Uh, what am I missing, Donald, and what question should I answer?



Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
My favorite post in that entire gunks.com thread is the very first reply to the OP. It was all downhill after that.

That said, I also want to know WTF Donald is trying so obliquely to point out about the gunks.com thread. What's the question dude?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 26, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
My favorite post in that entire gunks.com thread is the very first reply to the OP. It was all downhill after that.

That said, I also want to know WTF Donald is trying so obliquely to point out about the gunks.com thread. What's the question dude?

Donald's EGO.

(Please look at me, please respond to me ... me, me, me, ME! Please stop posting on Supertopo and post on MY very own thread. Please make the thread I started longer!)

There's nothing more, no issues, insights, or anything specifically pertinent to the situation at hand (excepting of course the defective ego issue that it shares with Ivan Greene, but without the negative social impact of the latter). If that's your cup of tea, than by all means indulge yourself; otherwise you'd do best to head the advice hinted at earlier on this thread... and just ignore it.


ruppell

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Let's just let Donalds presence here drift away. PLEASE. Do not open that channel. If you look at all of his postings from the site that he linked to you'll see why.

So with that said can we tar and feather Ivan even more now?



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
After all, it is a Gunks problem

If only.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Before someone trundles a rock on Mr. Ivan Greene, or before someone else does thinking that perhaps it might be a good idea after reading one of your posts I think you should consider a few things.

Let me say that, when I first started climbing I approached it much the same way as it is today. Hanging on a rope. Back then, you really could not get away with that and expect to get your climb in a guide book. My climbs could get in there only under other people’s names. If you did that, if you hung around on a rope, whatever it is you were doing with aid, it was not considered climbing. But this is the way everyone climbs today. It’s accepted, as long as you finish it once.

Now, I will assume that none of us here are bouldering all winter long, with space heaters and such. I never thought of that idea, or imagined that people would be doing that. Maybe I should buy one of those things, not sure.

Anyway, I would like to know first of all where this rock is, exactly, and who took the video, and why. And where else potentially Ivan Greene has been said to be chipping climbs. I think this information is important to really understand what is going on. I am assuming it was on state land, fine, where? How do I get there?

I also climb in an area outside of the Gunks, where the rock can be rotten. I do not resort to chipping rock, that was something I understood to stay away from. I have also had some of my routes bolted later on by other people where there was no need for bolts. However, if I was climbing as often as Ivan Greene, and making a carrier out of it, looking for new routes where there was none, I might start thinking about habitual bolting or the use of hammers.

Why? Well first of all, when you are 30’ in the air and holds break as you go, where high ball boulder problems are you cup of tee, I can imagine it’s not a lot of fun after a while. That’s something you just can’t allow to happen, if you want to make a career out it. There's no rope you know. Eventually you will find the need to test out what there really is and isn't before you climb, you may not want to be making a potential human sacrifice every time you post an icon. Eventually you will have kids, and who wants to go to the hospital only because of some ethic. You have responsibly, now you have to provide for a family. It’s not very smart to say the least. So, you lower down, you find some loose stuff, and you pull it off first. I am sure land owners are not going to want to hear fire trucks and ambulances any more than they are going to want to hear someone hammering in their woods, but which is worse? And in NY the property owners pay, it’s not the same as California. Now, in the process things can happen, the rock can break any number of ways. For example, in that video I noticed whoever it was, hammering on something, it was hollow. Would you suggest getting up on there first and falling off with the block? After a while you are going to learn to remove it first. And if it breaks off the wrong way when you are hanging on it, with a bad edge because you pulled on it the wrong way, then it would in fact have been better off if you had cracking it off short with a hammer to begin with. So what I am saying is this, that it is just this kind of environment that can lend itself to hammers and chisels in our day and age.

Why? This kind of stuff has already been going on for a long time and no one has complained that much about it before. In fact it is encouraged. Take twilight Zone for example.




From the TS Guide book: While this rout's crux is on Twilight Zone, the majority of the climb is an independent line. A tremendous amount of work went into this including "improving" holds and the placement of a bolt Starting on the GT ledge. … The second pitch is called The French Connection (aka Jackhammered). From the belay, traverse straight right … then over the roof at a fingerlock (crux, fingerlock chiseled out to "improve" it) to the top (5.12+G). It’s the locals who decide what’s up, and here the thing goes in the guide.

So, I agree Ivan Greene needs to communicate, and there has to be some agreement here on how these new climbs go up. But I don’t think he should be expected to do something no one else is doing. In other words, what do the locals think who are likewise putting up new routes over loose and soon to be broken rock, whether it be by hanging on it, or by hammer? I think for Ivan to be banging away happily like this with a hammer one of two things has to be happening. Either he does not care what anyone thinks, or there has been a shift it the way hard boulder problems have been going up over the years. Find me a post where someone is complaining about Twilight Zone going up with a hammer if you think what I am saying is exaggerated. The only post you will find in the past is my own, and there is no response to it.

Below is a photo of Ivan Greene. You can see where the hold was removed, in the hole if you look to the left you can see it was actually part of the rock. I actually tried to remove this myself back it the 70’s, but I used my hands and only kicked at it with my boot. The locals did not like me on there, and complained about it, so Burlingame and myself left and went to work on projects in Millbrook instead.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
Why? Well first of all, when you are 30’ in the air and holds break as you go, I can imagine it’s not a lot of fun after a while. That’s something you just can’t allow to happen, if you want to make a career out it. Eventually you will find the need to test out what there is before you climb, you may not want to be making a potential human sacrifice every time you climb. Eventually you will have kids, and who wants to go to the hospital only because of some ethic. You have responsibly, now you have to provide for a family. It’s not very smart to say the least. So, you lower down, you find some loose stuff, and you pull it off first. I am sure land owners are not going to want to hear fire trucks and ambulances any more than they are going to want to hear someone hammering in their woods, but which is worse? And in NY the property owners pay, it’s not the same as California. Now, in the process things can happen, the rock can break any number of ways. For example, in that video I noticed whoever it was, hammering on something, it was hollow. Would you suggest getting up on there first and falling off with the block? After a while you are going to learn to remove it first. And if it breaks off the wrong way when you are hanging on it, with a bad edge because you pulled on it the wrong way, then it would in fact have been better off if you had cracking it off short with a hammer to begin with. So what I am saying is this, that it is just this kind of environment that lends itself to hammers and chisels in our day and age.

Complete and utter rationalistic tripe - especially this:

That’s something you just can’t allow to happen, if you want to make a career out it.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
(Please look at me, please respond to me ... me, me, me, ME! Please stop posting on Supertopo and post on MY very own thread. Please make the thread I started longer!)

That is fućking hilarious!
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
ruppell

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
donald perry =

donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
Dear Healyje,

In response to "That’s something you just can’t allow to happen, if you want to make a career out it." You wrote: “Complete and utter rationalistic tripe - especially this:”

I cannot understand what you are saying. In context, you are admitting that it’s a good idea to fall off high ball boulder problems if your over 50. Could you explain.
ruppell

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
kenny

Know matter what any one tells you the Bee Gees will never be cool. But that made me laugh. Twice actually. Once from seeing the post and twice when I clicked on the vid. Thanks bro.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
What would be the point of attempting to?
WBraun

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
Try clearing your cash and you will see what I mean.


I don't think he really wants to do that .....

But Cache, yes
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Dear Healyje

You wrote: "What would be the pont." in respose to a request to make your post clear.

From Don: I don't know yet, I am still trying to figure that out. That's why I asked you to clarify. Look, if you guys don't want to deal seriously with the topic that's fine. But I thought this was a serious subject. Did I make a mistake?

Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
i saw the video; never been out that way but what he is doing is silly as he is not cleaning loose dangerous crap, but enhancing.
In the Rockies, more importantly to this thread The Chossies, people remove loose debris and rock all the time creating routes, very common, or most sport routes here would be uber-suicidal. We clean pebbles out of cracks all the time, its not enhancing, it is making the route better and less dangerous.
However, mixed ice climbing is different and apparently enhancing, as opposed to simple cleaning, has become a also a common practice here with drilled holes.
There is a big difference, but this guy is obviously enhancing as he beat on that same spot forever and it was not loose....
Or he is a chicken poop head.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
use a rope if you are afraid of hurting yourself.

any thing else is just ego. If that other climb you were talking about
was chipped, the persons that did it should be called out also.

If chipping is condoned, then what's to stop people from going out to chip
someones v hard climb down to a V easy so they can climb it?
ruppell

climber
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
donald

I bet you have some stories to tell. Did the readership at gunks.com finally bore you to tears? That site sucks. Always has always will. So welcome to the fold.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
mixed ice climbing is different and apparently enhancing, as opposed to simple cleaning, has become a also a common practice here with drilled holes.

Weird. You mean they drill holes in rock so that their ice tool placements are more secure? Sounds like enhancing hook moves on aid, and ^^^ not valid.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Donald Perry writes:
Eventually you will have kids, and who wants to go to the hospital only because of some ethic. You have responsibly, now you have to provide for a family.

and

I cannot understand what you are saying. In context, you are admitting that it’s a good idea to fall off high ball boulder problems if you’re over 50. Could you explain.



So then the aging climber wants to continue to make a career out of his climbing - which by all accounts is an inherently risky activity. Perhaps the aging career climbers who have acquired a family, kids, and other responsibilities (mortgage, children's' college tuition fund, retirement savings, automobile payments, investments, etc.) should be granted a special dispensation whereby they are allowed to chip the new climbing projects that they undertake, insofar as it increases their own safety so they will not experience any conflicts or setbacks as breadwinner.

This special dispensation can also be extended to these same aging career climbers when they attempt other climbers' projects which might present an unacceptable risk to themselves: they can be allowed to chip or chop sections of the climb so as to ensure their own safety and/or for the sake of their families. Furthermore, there are numerous established climbs, classic climbs, even world class climbs that may present an unacceptable risk to these aging career climbers: this special dispensation can be extended to allow them to permanently alter these established routes by selectively chopping or chipping them and adding bolts so that they do not have to endure any undue risks.

For the aging career climber who, a.) Is losing testosterone and cannot replace it quickly enough with supplements, b.) Due to life and family commitments no longer has the free time to scout out acceptable rock for new projects that will potentially buoy up a sagging and moribund career, c.) Understandably no longer has the physical strength or stamina to compete at the highest cutting edge gymnastic level, and/or d.) Doesn’t posses the vision of a new generation of young, hungry, talented climbers, then this special dispensation can be extended to them so as to allow artificial chipping and chopping to whatever degree they deem necessary to maintain their career, and thus responsibly support their family, even if this entails chopping out extensive rest areas on another's climb so as to provide a reasonable opportunity to regain their strength, endurance, and composure.

This special dispensation can be modeled on the widespread institutionalization of handicapped parking permits and handicapped parking spaces, special senior citizen discounts (for example reduced cost of public transportation and reduced entrance fees to National Parks), and various other forms of special dispensation which the Great Society and the Welfare State has had the foresight to enact. Maybe the chipping tools can be sold to them at a discount or offered free through special sponsorship so as not to further overburden them financially.

Let's be clear here: at root is ageism pure and simple. Why should an aging career climber be expected to compete on a level playing field, in the arena of new route development - with climbers in their teens, twenties, or thirties?


Btw, what age is this Ivan Greene?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Thank god the Nose has already been chipped for Donini and Lowe.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
First off I don't ever mix-ice climb but yes apparently they chip/drill rock to have the pick sit better than not at all.
Second, many sport climbs in the Rockies of Canada are cleaned as this is crap limestone and some even use crowbars to pry off loose blocks, and this is not enhancing a hold this is ridding the cliff of many death blocks. Sorry it ain't granite.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 26, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
getting old, brittle and weak is a rational for beating a piece of rock into submission with hammer and chisel. Good. Stuff. That.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Maybe Ivan is chipping to de-enhance the holds to make the problems harder to inflate his ego, and, keep all the noobs off the climb.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Lovegas,

Although you certainly can write, I think you are missing Donald's point.

It isn't about black and white, this or that. Ivan did a thing, and there may some motivations behind it that are not understood. Until there is more evidence, blanket assumptions and accusations may be premature.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
What really matters is access, not the hubris of "Rock Climbers" trying to make sense of what they do for competition and attention.

It's surprising that those who truly take care of areas that include climbing are so inclusive.

Climbers have always been their own worst enemy.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:04am PT
patrick compton wrote:
It isn't about black and white, this or that. Ivan did a thing, and there may some motivations behind it that are not understood. Until there is more evidence, blanket assumptions and accusations may be premature.

Cosmic has got that base covered, there's no need for me intercede.
He's asked for reasons that chipping is justified and he's fielding them as they appear, as well as considering potential novel situations. Harder, easier, safer, riskier ....

We may never now why Ivan Greene did what he did. We're not his psychiatrist. Ivan himself may not know all the reasons behind his own behavior (at least according to someone like Freud).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Ivan did a thing, and there may some motivations behind it that are not understood. Until there is more evidence, blanket assumptions and accusations may be premature.

That's a good one! I especially like the "until there is more evidence" bit.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:21am PT
If chipping is condoned, then what's to stop people from going out to chip
someones v hard climb down to a V easy so they can climb it?

And all other arguments aside, that's what it really comes down to. If it's OK for Ivan to chip a project so that he can send it, why is it then wrong for any climber to alter any climb so that he can do it?

Curt
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:22am PT
Dear Lovegasoline,

In response to my letter you wrote: “Perhaps the aging career climbers … should be … allowed to chip the new climbing projects that they undertake …”

First, I am sorry you did not read my letter very carefully before you attempted to respond to it. You have yet to address its argument.

The "ethic" in view first of all is in the fact that as the high baller gets older he is starting from the top rather than the bottom. Not that he is starting out chipping holds into the rock so he makes it up every climb now without falling. You are reading my letter ass-backwards. As life goes on, he naturally gravitates to make the most of pre-cleaning his climbs, and breaks off the stuff that was going to pop of anyway, and in a better way and place had it broken off naturally by someone climbing on it. He thinks about the rock first, rather than his style. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that at this point. It's not cool to drop sh#t on your spotters or your belayers and destroy an otherwise, what could be a perfect climb. Another thing that pushes him in this direction is that he starts to think about the value of sacrificing ethics for safety. Now I am talking about the ethic of pre-viewing climbs rather then onsighting. And at this point and it this case that it does not hurt the rock either.

Secondly, I am talking about the history of how we got here or how he may have got there. Notice I mention my own feelings and the environment we find ourselves in today. The point of the letter was not to justify chipping, but to try and understand what’s going on here in the Gunks. I think it is actually more complex that it may first appear on the surface. For example, I don’t think these people have set out to destroy the rock, not at all, I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good lines. But the pressure is on to scoop up the last big problems, and the rock doesn’t change. Things just may have gotten out of hand at some point, where what was very exceptional started to become too normal, and gravitated to something no one originally intended. And if this is the case, and I think it is, then this thinking needs to be reversed to something clear.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:23am PT
His motivation is irrelevant.

And yeah, we need more evidence. I want a DNA test. I want witness testimony. But most of all, I want to see if those awesome camouflage glove actually fit on his pudgy little hands. That's really the only way we can be sure he did what we all THINK he MIGHT have POSSIBLY done... or not done... or something.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:11am PT
"As life goes on, he naturally gravitates to make the most of pre-cleaning his climbs, and breaks off the stuff that was going to pop of anyway, and in a better way and place had it broken off naturally by someone climbing on it. He thinks about the rock first, rather than his style. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that at this point."




I have a problem with the above statement. In more ways than one.
Does anyone else see the problem?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:21am PT
...I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good lines. But the pressure is on to scoop up the last big problems, and the rock doesn’t change.

Do you actual read any of this while you're writing it? Here, let me fix that for you:

...I trust that they are actually intending to chisel some good lines. But the pressure is on to manufacture big problems given the rock doesn’t change on its own.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 27, 2013 - 02:45am PT
Compared to Ivan, Donald seems like a CHIP off the old Block.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Feb 27, 2013 - 03:14am PT
Every post on this page is great.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 27, 2013 - 07:51am PT
If it's OK for Ivan to chip a project so that he can send it, why is it then wrong for any climber to alter any climb so that he can do it?

Definitely, a worst case scenario would be if people started doing this on sacred ground like el Cap. Still, if this happened in the gunks that's well known for both trad ethics and access issues. Some observations about the case:

 Greene wrote a guidebook to the Gunks and people may see him as some kind of community leader.

 anyone who's been to the Gunks knows there are issues with access to the area, and that it's on land that's in the backyard of a hotel for millionaires.

 (apparently) many other climbs have asked him to stop chipping holds, and made this video because he wouldn't stop.

 Greene appears to have bought professional tools for this purpose and keeps them at his project sites

 if you look at the expressions on his face and body language in the video, he looks guilty as sh#t, as if he's worried someone is going to catch him.

 he has apparently not responded to the video and took down his facebook page. My guess: either the Preserve or the police did something or threatened to.

To me the situation seems almost a little on the pathetic side, that these boulder problems were so important to him. If his goal was to be respected in the climbing community, he's blown it big time.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 27, 2013 - 08:25am PT
Ok internet guys, you win on all accounts without question or gray area. Climbing area development is, and shall always be, black and white. Burn the heretic. Hillary 2016.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:27am PT
It's not just internet guys. It's real people in real life at the cliff, at the gunks, who want Ivan to stop chiseling or STFH.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 09:49am PT
From Cosmo: "As life goes on, he naturally gravitates to make the most of pre-cleaning his climbs, and breaks off the stuff that was going to pop of anyway, and in a better way and place had it broken off naturally by someone climbing on it. He thinks about the rock first, rather than his style. I don't think anyone should have a problem with that at this point."

I have a problem with the above statement. In more ways than one.
Does anyone else see the problem?

From Don: We are talking about special instances someone will run into if they climb full time. If you have so many problems, could you name just one? The stuff is going to break off anyway, where and when it breaks off should be more important than having it break off while your trying to do a first accent in good style. And a wrong move by someone who does not know what they are doing on fragile rock can just make the rock worse.

Another option is to come up with a rule that loose and cavitated rock should be forever off limits to climbing because climbing may make future climbing impossible on some climbs because there is no logical solution yet. This sounds like something some bureaucracy at a park could suggest. Is this what you are suggesting?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:15am PT
After looking at that video again of Ivan,
One thing comes to mind.
He sure had to POUND long and HARD on that rock to get off the LOOSE rock!!


" Greene wrote a guidebook to the Gunks and people may see him as some kind of community leader"


Maybe that's the reason Ivan is chipping.He needs some more income so He is working hard on new routes
so he can publish a new guidebook.

BRILLIANT!!!
Maybe I should go out and throw MUD on peoples windows so
they will call me for my window washing services.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:19am PT
From Healyje

“Do you actual read any of this while you're writing it? Here, let me fix that for you: ...I trust that they are actually intending to chisel some good lines. But the pressure is on to manufacture big problems given the rock doesn’t change on its own.” "

You are talking about the video with the guy chipping. I am talking about what their intentions where, are, or should be, and how they may have come to this point. You are talking about chipping to climb. I am talking about climbing, and how it can progress to chipping. Your reading my intended meanings in my letter backwards.

I will give an example. Why is there fluoride in your drinking water, it is in so many towns and cities, and why is it mandated by government. It is a poison and you probably brush your teeth with it. A lot of it ends up in your brain. You probably think it’s good for you. See the doctors on youtube. Or, why are hospitals and doctors by in large more concerned with medication and pharmaceutical sales than what’s wrong with the American diet or heavy metals in your teeth for example? Why be more concerned with the symptoms rather than the initial cause? Things did not just start out with, "lets drink poison". They gravitated this way because the system is based formost on money rather then health.

So lets try my sentence here:

...I trust that they are actually intending to put in some good intentions with the patents. But the pressure is on to pay off the college loans, as the economy just gets worse. As a result, eventually there was naturally a gravitation toward money and sales rather than health. But it did not start out this way.

Your reading things out of my letters I never wrote.


Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:19am PT
If I owned property with climbing on it, I'd never allow climbers onto it.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:28am PT


"If I owned property with climbing on it, I'd never allow climbers onto it."

It would be OK if you knew who they were and what they were doing, and if they could keep an eye on it to protect it. In fact this is what is now happening at Skytop.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:38am PT
No Donald, it would not be ok. If the land manager says no, it means no.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Does the state require a contractors license for chipping projects of that magnitude?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:54am PT
"Tread softly, but carry a, BIG prybar, chisel, and hammer, just in case."

Theodore Roosevelt
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 10:54am PT
"No Donald, it would not be ok. If the land manager says no, it means no."

Who do you think the "you" is in that sentance? The land manager or the rockclimber?
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 27, 2013 - 11:09am PT
DAMN. I just knew I should have chiseled that top hold
on that highball boulder problem, that broke off after hundreds of ascents, that I broke my back on back in 2000!
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 27, 2013 - 11:12am PT


^^^

and I should have CHIPPED yer head out at Picnic Rock...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 27, 2013 - 11:14am PT
You guys are missing the obvious, which is to do the route in visible way, maybe get a camera crew in there, THEN you break off the holds to keep the noobs away.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 27, 2013 - 11:37am PT
WOW! What an inspired concept. Don't wait for the climber who is good enough to do the route properly, just make it as you like it now. Then publish yourself in a guide book on all your new "test pieces". This revelation has enlightened me. I am now gearing up for a trip to the Black Canyon this spring. I am going to rap the North Chasm Wall with a construction crew. We will create a new, fully cleaned, chipped, carved and bolted 5.8c/d route between the Cruise and the Scenic Cruise. It will be sooooo bitchin'. Who could possibly have a problem with that? And I will be so famous. Of course we will with also have to install the sled ramp down the Cruise Gully so getting to the base will be as quick and easy as the climb will be. If this goes as well as I am sure it will plans are already in the works to do the full extension of the Jardine Traverse. Wow this New World Disorder is the bomb.
All Hale Ian Green the profit of a new way. 'Cause the old way is history and everybody knows nobody cares about history.


Anyone know where I can get a pair of those sexy camo gloves and a bitchin' beanie like his? I wouldn't want to be "out of style".
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Dear Cosmo, you wrote: "After looking at that video again of Ivan, One thing comes to mind. He sure had to POUND long and HARD on that rock to get off the LOOSE rock!!"

I see he is banging with upward vertical blows. I think that has nothing to do with what was going to happen when you load the flake vertically downward. It was a flake not fully attached, you can see that at 2:58. Sometimes there are flakes under boulders that just fall off pretty easily. I have pulled off things like that in the talus and on cliffs, were there are often bugs living in them. Sometimes there is actually cockroaches living in them!, I have no idea how they got here, I thought they only lived in NYC.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
He is also banging sidways with a fuking sledge and a gawdamn chisel.

Why do some people go to such lengths to defend what is obviously blatant chipping and hold manufacturing? Are they attempting to justify their own past transgressions? Give it up. Manufacturing holds with a fuking chisel and sledge is just wrong. Pretty f*#king simple.
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
"Why do some people go to such lengths to defend what is obviously blatant chipping and hold manufacturing?"

I am not talking about hold manufacturing you are, I am trying to understand what the video is about. It looks to me like he could have just pulled it off under body weight. What do you think? Are you a climber?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
yeah, yeah, yeah, The guy is so obviously chisleing That it's painful to watch the vid. he should just admit that he's pro-choice and move along
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:42pm PT


"Why do some people go to such lengths to defend what is obviously blatant chipping and hold manufacturing? Are they attempting to justify their own past transgressions? Give it up. Manufacturing holds with a fuking chisel and sledge is just wrong"...

It's the word "CHIPPING" that is so offensive...

They need to change that word to = "Creative cleaning" and all will be well...

;-)



EDITED:

Example:


Bob CHIPPER:

"I didn't "CHIP" that hold!!! All I did was some "CREATIVE CLEANING"...


John Dbag:

"Oh!!! It's OK then"...


kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
I am trying to understand what the video is about.

Do you need a translator?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Donald,

Don't question the supertopo internets gods. They know everything about this issue from this video. Ivan is guilty as charged, no discussion necesary. There is no gray area.
WBraun

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
donald perry = stupid American

It looks to me like he could have just pulled it off under body weight.


Then he would not have needed to smash and chisel forever as was evident in the video.

But since you have no good brain you will just keep on trucking with your nice illusion that you are projecting onto this culprit ....
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
You must remove those nasty loose holds from that thing cause if it snaps off you could become trapped between that and your pads.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:48pm PT

^^^

Exactly!!!...



EDITED:

and another way to word it:

Creative Exfoliation...
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Well if it was only creative cleaning, then I think we could talk about it. But it's gone beyond that, as what is the case on Twilight Zone.

Why is there no plans to try and put things back the way they were? That would demonstrate something, wouldn’t it? But instead what we have is silence for 3O years. This is just the first time it’s on video. When it was in the guide book no one complained, they even called it JACKHAMMERING!
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Locker, it appears two be at least an 18" fall from the photo.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
I am not talking about hold manufacturing you are, I am trying to understand what the video is about. It looks to me like he could have just pulled it off under body weight. What do you think? Are you a climber?

It doesn't take several minutes with a sledge and fuking chisel to remove a flake that would come off under body weight. The end result is a sculpted grip. It is absolutely 100% hold manufacturing.

What do I think? I think you are quite daft actually.

I've helped developed hundreds of boulder problems in dozens of areas. Nobody on our crew has ever resorted to pounding on anything that hard with those kind of tools. It is despicable. As is trying desperately to obfuscate what is clearly hold manufacturing.


Why is there no plans to try and put things back the way they were?

That is one of the many reasons chipping is so grotesque. You cannot put it back the way it was without making it look even worse. The ONLY solution is to not chip in the first place.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
But instead what we have is silence for 3O years.

Donald if you're serious everyone will deal with you but I have the feeling you're not. Your argument seems to be that this kind of thing is normal at the Gunks and that Ivan Greene is being singled out unfairly for what everyone does. But there's lots of people on this forum who've climbed at the gunks for 30 years or more and know that's not true.

Patrick, I'd love to get you on a jury in one of my cases. They could show you a video of the guy committing the crime and you still wouldn't believe it. You'd need proof!
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
WBraun "Then he would not have needed to smash and chisel forever as was evident in the video."

I am sorry we don't agree. I own a demolition company, beat on stuff all day long, and I am not convinced. I think there is no way for us to tell how much weight the flake would have held from a video. But I can tell you that after these things fall off, sometimes it is a real mystery to try and imagine what was holding them on in the first place.

If his intention was simply to remove the flake he could have hammered the chisel between the rock and the flake.
WBraun

climber
Feb 27, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
LOL ^^^^
donald perry

Trad climber
kearny, NJ
Feb 27, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
From Mechrist “It doesn't take several minutes with a sledge and fuking chisel to remove a flake that would come off under body weight.”

How many flakes have you beat on with a lump hammer? It’s a lump hammer we are talking about. A sledge hammer is bigger.
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