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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Signed the petition.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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The wingnuts in my neighborhood want to kill them all,they say they kill their house cats. can you believe that sh#t?
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saa
climber
not much of a
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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The bobcat at Hidden Valley campground came ten feet from my two months
pup in october 2011. I became aware of the cat hiding behind a boulder.
He retreated. I thought of throwing a rock or charging as a warning, but then no.
It s his place too.
I was surprised he was in camp in full daylight, but then again saw one
charging through Camp 4 once, in mid morning.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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shouldn't this be on the Bob thread?
hahahahaha!
I agree. The bobcats should not be hunted or bothered at all. Coyotes kill way more house cats.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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Signed the petition.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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The Bobcats seem mostly interested in rodents
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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They shouldn't be hunted unless they start fires on live television.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
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Signed. Thanks for the link.
The bobcats around here live on squirrels and such. The coyotes will take house cats and smaller dogs. Bigger dogs have been seen being taken by Mtn lions. I found the bones of a deer in the brush out back here, but who knows how it met it's fate.
It's raining here right now. The coyotes have figured out that they can chase the deer out of the woods onto the slippery wet paved street, where they lose their footing and go down. One of these days they'll figure out how to chase them into oncoming traffic.
Yesterday was trash day and my stupid neighbors are too thick to get bear-proof trash cans, so there was trash all over the place.
When we bought this place (about 6 years back) I had no idea how much wildlife would be around here. Shortly after we moved in - the furniture was not set up yet - I left all six porch doors into the living room open at night and went to the back of the house. When I came back out there was a bobcat right there in the room. I froze and watched. It looked at me, turned around and raised it's tail to show me it's butt, and walked out casually. I've seen that cat (or perhaps different ones) about twice a year since then.
My favorites are the silver/blue foxes. I always see them in pairs, and they are perfectly groomed. It's like there is a fox beauty salon around here somewhere.
I learned pretty quickly not to leave doors open here. A skunk or bear inside the house would be bad.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 19, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
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Anything that eats both rodents and house ate is a friend of mine. ;-)
We get bobcats here in Sunland too.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
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I've seen them quite often in Redwood City at Edgewood County Park and Nature Preserve. Saw a really big one sunning himself at Partridge Farm in Castle Rock State Park too. Fat and healthy. Saw a nice one on Page Mill Road in Palo Alto likewise.
All power to the Bobs. They really do keep the rodent population down.
Will sign for sure.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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There was a family of 6 that used to hang out at Mike and Mari's. When the whole clan disappeared it was found that a marine from 29 Palms was trapping them and sending the fur to Russia.
it's just wrong IMO
Signed
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
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I'm thinking Mike and Mari didn't have a mouse problem. cool picture
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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Fur trapping is super lame.
The animal suffers, and the historic significance of furs for warm clothing is no longer applicable in the age of synthetics.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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Scott, I don't always agree with you, but this is a good cause.
signed the petition.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
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From the LA Times Article: "We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do," Lawing said. "Nathan and I harvest adult male cats and turn loose adult females and kittens."
Reminds me of the infamous: "We had to destroy the Village in order to save it."
In this case, the trappers love the $$$. Which should not be confused with actually caring about the living animals.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
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Making an animal suffer through being caught in a trap is lame.
I understand the population control argument, and firmly disagree with trapping.
Maybe we should start trapping stupid people to save our fragile environment...just put traps around fast food joints...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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Brandon-
Us human beings are too stupid to really understand how stupid we really are .....
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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Duhhh, you lost me there Werner. :)
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
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All those wild animals sure are lucky to have us deceiding who goe's and who stays!
EDIT: "goes" thanks locker that must drive the grammar nazis crazy can't have that
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Feb 19, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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Signed. . . sealed and delivered!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Feb 19, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
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Saw one deer hunting in wva once. Watched it watching deer and cleaning itself like a house cat for a half hour. Never occurred to me to take a shot. I was too enraptured with such an interesting animal.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Feb 19, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
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Thanks for posting this Coz.
Hashbro has been spreading the word too via fb.
Trapping sucks.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Feb 19, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
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Signed the Petition.
Thanks for posting COZ, hope the kat shows up.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
The great state of advaita
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Feb 19, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I signed.
Saw one on a little used trail when running one day 20 odd years ago in an open space preserve near Portola Valley (SF Bay area). Very cool animals.
And yup, it was just for a very brief moment.
My son's nickname it Bobcat too!
Eric
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 19, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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F*#k civil discussion. Trapping is cruel, plain and simple. I don't like hunting, but get that it can be done in a relatively humane way. Trapping is 100% BS, and the folks that do it are some seriously cold as#@&%es. Torturing an animal for its fur is not justifiable. No apologies for my language; it pales in comparison to the vulgarity of trapping.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 19, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
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we're talkin live traps here.
Not leg holds.
Treating wild kitties as near domestic pets is as irresponsible as taking them out of season or on prohibited property (monument or private)
There's one that considers the campsite at the end of the loop in Hidden Valley his personal domain.
I called one in once when we were all up at the base of a climb somewhere back around Lloyd's etc. Saw him down on the desert floor and called him up.
Not sure who had the most astonished look.
My buds when they saw him headed up for us or he when he realized I wasn't a rival or potential conquest.
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Steven Parker
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 20, 2013 - 01:04am PT
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Signed!
What in the hell are these deranged individuals thinking?
I think it's time to hunt some poachers...
...did i say that out loud?
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 20, 2013 - 02:59am PT
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Thanks for posting Scott. I signed the petition. I had no idea this was going on out there.
can't say, that photo is heartbreaking if those beautiful cats were trapped by some knucklehead this winter.
"Bobcats are being targeted for the value of their pelts in top-dollar markets such as China, Russia and Greece. A premium pelt of heavily spotted white belly fur can earn a trapper more than $600, according to Nathan Brock, who skinned 10 bobcats that he captured in the Joshua Tree area during the hunting season that ended Jan. 31.
Brock, 38, an active-duty Marine stationed at nearby Twentynine Palms Marine Corps Base, acknowledged that one of his traps was set on private property and not on federal Bureau of Land Management grounds, where trapping is legal. The region is a patchwork of private property and BLM land.
"I feel horrible about that," Brock said. "It's my fault for not making sure."
The manufacturer of Brock's trap, Mercer Lawing of Barstow, said critics miss the point. "We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do," Lawing said. "Nathan and I harvest adult male cats and turn loose adult females and kittens."
I'm sure Mr. Brock feels AWFUL!! I'm sure he weeps over his actions.
"We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do,"
What The Fu--??? You love them so much you trap them causing great pain to the cat then kill and skin it so some rich foreigner can flaunt their status by wearing fur? You love the MONEY they bring you by killing them. What a prick.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 20, 2013 - 07:50am PT
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Signed
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 20, 2013 - 08:27am PT
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Signed...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 20, 2013 - 08:42am PT
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This entire industry should be panned. Immediately.
If today's generation is looking for a cause, this is it.
Look at this guy. He's so proud of himself and his work. :(
http://www.cagingbobcats.com/
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 20, 2013 - 09:55am PT
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What a f*#king piece of shit! Like these animals (and the rest of that ecosystem) don't have enough trouble without some dickhead wantonly destroying them for their fur.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Feb 20, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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Signed petition. Levy and I had a long discussion about this a few weeks ago. Check out his link above, as well.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Feb 20, 2013 - 10:33am PT
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M&M
climber
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Feb 20, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
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This is what is imperiled.
Would we rather see this or see someone wearing it?
Our natural heritage or an export item to indulge foreign fashionistas?
How do we value wildlife?
Is it up to us to balance nature? or does nature take care of itself?
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weezy
climber
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Feb 20, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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but the fact remains that it benefits the cats as well as the other wildlife to have a predator control plan.
now we just need a Human Control Plan. shame we don't have one implemented for planet earth's deadliest and most destructive predator.
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M&M
climber
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Feb 20, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 20, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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The real world is a rough place. A species population fluctuations are not always a good thing. As a society we hire the best professionals we can to make the best decisions they can regarding proper wildlife management. Do they always make the best decisions? Of course not but they are much better at it than off the hip emotional uneducated decisions.
Sometimes those decisions indicate that hunting and trapping are good for an ecosystem or at least not detrimental.
Also I do not take lightly the fact that some people make a living this way and I do not condemn that way of living if regulated for responsible preservation of the ecology of an area.
Everything dies. In the wild death is often much less humane than the way a proper hunter or trapper does the job.
I also think its a really really bad form of governance for people without proper training to make decree's by petition when it comes to important science based ecology decisions.
To make your concerns heard is good. But I suggest if you really care about a species you should do some serious research. Inform yourself to find out if the harvesting is possibly a good thing for the overal environment and even the species itself.
Without that research you should at least be honest enough to say you are not informed well enough to have good advice on the suject.
I am definately not informed enough on the bobcat situation to have anything close to a reasonable opinion on the subject. I am sure the proper approach to this issue varies a great deal depending on the specific area in question.
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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We have a bunch of chickens and in kind, we have a bunch of bobcats. I'd say over the last ten years we have fed the bobcats over thirty chickens!
We have a fenced in chicken house, but we like to let them out on sunny days. At first we just let them run around, then we lost our first chicken to our cat. So then we always let the dog watch the chickens while they roamed. That worked for awhile until we watched the bobcat grab the chicken from right next to the dog. So then .... we would stay out when the chickens roamed figuring that no bobcat would challenge us. Boy were we wrong, that bobcat would walk right up to me winked, yawned and then run off with another chicken. One day the bobcat took the chicken up our cottonwood... see the pictures and just ate it right there in front of me.
Never ever did we consider trapping or hurting the bobcats. Signed the petition some time ago
Thanks Scott for posting it here
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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I will ask a serious question of the folks that advocate for the various wildlife management plans that require massive amounts of selected killing of specific species; how did these species and ecosystems work before man came on the scene?
The argument, as I understand it, is that species like wolves or bobcats or whatever would, without the intervention of man, would quickly overpopulate and send the entire ecosystem into chaos and decline. To me, it seems odd that all these ecosystems survived for 1000s of years without man's systematic intervention, and that now it is imperative for us to actively manage selected populations.
I am not being facetious here; will some please give me a reasoned explanation as to how this is supposed to work.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
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I guess we killed the wolves when we moved in, so now we are the wolves.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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NC rock
It's just the basic predator prey population relationship model. Something generally introduced in any basic biology course. Then expended upon in great detail if one goes deeper into the natural sciences.
Such that as predator population reaches a climax you tend to get a crash in prey populations which is then followed by starvation and disease in predators.
Then prey booms and it can face similar problems.
And the cycle then repeats.
From a purely humane point of view massive numbers of starvation and disease deaths are better off avoided.
Especially it is good to avoid population extremes that create a hotbed for disease evolution. As from time to time these may cross over into human populations.
Good management can help reduce these peaks and valleys of population extremes and the accompanied disease and starvation deaths.
Generally it's not a matter of survival of a species. But the argument that it is more humane and safer than an unharvested situation can be readily made.
Another way of looking at it is that man is a part of the natural world. He is naturally intelligent and capable of being a positive predatory variable in ecology.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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Ron, yes that is clear. I asked a simple and honest question. Why the dicky and condescending response?
cs2, that makes sense, but doesn't the "boom / bust" cycle serve a purpose? I mean, it worked well for a long time before we came along. Does the fact that the boom / bust is not good for hunting drive any of the decision making?
I am not 100% anti hunting, but have always suspected that a lot of the management plans were put in place so that there were enough deer and other trophy animals around for hunters to kill.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 20, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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Most certainly land managers take into account the users of the land and are generally mandated to provide for hunting and trapping.
Fortunately this can dovetail nicely into good population management.
One might say that mistakes are made from time to time.. Infact one could argue that mistakes are ALWAYS made. Yet it seems to me that a little mistake from proactive policies is better than a major mistake from no policies.
One result that can arguably be made for allowing boom bust cycles is that it may increase evolutionary selection thus more rapid adjustment to changing environments.
Even for humans diseases may increase the species survival long term.
Harsh but true.
A tough balance with endlessly debatable priorities and outcomes.
But uneducated uninformed opinion does not seem to be in anyway a productive way to make these important decisions.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 20, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
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NP Ron. I do appreciate your response. You present a reasonable argument.
For me, it comes down to two issues. One is that it seems that when we (humans) try to alter or augment the natural order, we often cause many unintended consequences and make things worse in the long run. Nature, like most extremely complex systems does a good job of self regulating and doesn't seem to need our help.
The other issue is that the scale of destruction of wildlife (like what is shown on the trapping website linked above) is just disgusting to me. I know that nature is cruel, and I get all the arguments that start with the question "do you know what a slaughterhouse looks like?" However, apex predators, like bobcats, are having their habitats destroyed at an astounding rate. Sure there are lots of wild places still left in the west, but they are becoming fewer by the day. Despite the argument that this killing is helping to "manage" the populations, is seems like they are having a hard enough time finding a place to live without any more of our "help." The "management" arguments remind me of the classic quote from the Vietnam war about Ben Tre: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
CS2 and Ron, thanks again for your responses.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 20, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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However, apex predators, like bobcats, are having their habitats destroyed at an astounding rate.
We ARE the apex predator!
And the United States, especially the west is an astoundingly empty place.
Just stop randomly on about any highway and walk for fifteen minutes perpendicular to the road, anywhere from the Mississippi to the San Bernardinos.
Other than isolated urban pockets, more wildlife than human.
Closer to home, keep driving past 29 on 62 on any weekday and tell me how many cars you see in an hour?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Feb 20, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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Ron Anderson, you used to be OK - Skip and I were talking about you the other night.
Not so much anymore. Something in you has changed and become angry, abrasive and confrontational.
I understand injuries can get one pissed off, but you have undergone a very fundamental change in your behavior on-line in the last couple of years.
It is sad to me, I liked you at one time.
Erik
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Feb 20, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
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Bobcats do seem to be plentiful. We have them here roaming the UConn Medical Center campus. One walked across the road 30 yards from me a few months ago. Didn't seem the least bit shy, broad daylight, she/he sat down near the curb, licked itself a few times, then just sauntered away. Pretty damn cool.
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