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coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 19, 2013 - 11:59am PT
I have a place in JT right near the Park, and had a cool Bobcat who entertain me and my guest by thinking that he lived their too. Sleeping on my drive way and chilling around my cactus garden. He disappeared, and my property manager made me aware of the fact that people are hunting, killing and capturing these beautiful and amazing creatures.
http://projectbobcat.org/

Hopefully, people will help here, or have a civil LOL discussion about the issue.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Signed the petition.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
The wingnuts in my neighborhood want to kill them all,they say they kill their house cats. can you believe that sh#t?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
cmon down to the cc river corridor,, ill show you bobcats out the arse.

The FUR market is outstanding for them this year. We have millions of em.


and COZ,, this is coming up on the breeding season..You shouldnt see em that time of year.
saa

climber
not much of a
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
The bobcat at Hidden Valley campground came ten feet from my two months
pup in october 2011. I became aware of the cat hiding behind a boulder.
He retreated. I thought of throwing a rock or charging as a warning, but then no.
It s his place too.


I was surprised he was in camp in full daylight, but then again saw one
charging through Camp 4 once, in mid morning.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
shouldn't this be on the Bob thread?
hahahahaha!

I agree. The bobcats should not be hunted or bothered at all. Coyotes kill way more house cats.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Signed the petition.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
The Bobcats seem mostly interested in rodents
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
They shouldn't be hunted unless they start fires on live television.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
Signed. Thanks for the link.

The bobcats around here live on squirrels and such. The coyotes will take house cats and smaller dogs. Bigger dogs have been seen being taken by Mtn lions. I found the bones of a deer in the brush out back here, but who knows how it met it's fate.

It's raining here right now. The coyotes have figured out that they can chase the deer out of the woods onto the slippery wet paved street, where they lose their footing and go down. One of these days they'll figure out how to chase them into oncoming traffic.

Yesterday was trash day and my stupid neighbors are too thick to get bear-proof trash cans, so there was trash all over the place.

When we bought this place (about 6 years back) I had no idea how much wildlife would be around here. Shortly after we moved in - the furniture was not set up yet - I left all six porch doors into the living room open at night and went to the back of the house. When I came back out there was a bobcat right there in the room. I froze and watched. It looked at me, turned around and raised it's tail to show me it's butt, and walked out casually. I've seen that cat (or perhaps different ones) about twice a year since then.

My favorites are the silver/blue foxes. I always see them in pairs, and they are perfectly groomed. It's like there is a fox beauty salon around here somewhere.

I learned pretty quickly not to leave doors open here. A skunk or bear inside the house would be bad.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Carlin tunnel area -loop road..
Carlin tunnel area -loop road..
Credit: Ron Anderson

Theres areas that have bobcats,, then theres areas that have BOBCATS..This one is close to 40 lbs.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Anything that eats both rodents and house ate is a friend of mine. ;-)


We get bobcats here in Sunland too.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:30pm PT


Signed...

A GOOD cause!!!...
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
I've seen them quite often in Redwood City at Edgewood County Park and Nature Preserve. Saw a really big one sunning himself at Partridge Farm in Castle Rock State Park too. Fat and healthy. Saw a nice one on Page Mill Road in Palo Alto likewise.

All power to the Bobs. They really do keep the rodent population down.

Will sign for sure.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
There was a family of 6 that used to hang out at Mike and Mari's. When the whole clan disappeared it was found that a marine from 29 Palms was trapping them and sending the fur to Russia.
Gone
Gone
Credit: can't say
it's just wrong IMO

Signed
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:44pm PT

"When the whole clan disappeared it was found that a marine from 29 Palms was trapping them and sending the fur to Russia. "...



Too bad that dumb fuk didn't get busted...(Edited: or did he???)
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
He came right out and admitted it and was quoted in an LA Times article last week.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/11/local/la-me-bobcats-20130211
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:55pm PT



Just read it...

WOW!!!...

Had no idea it was such an issue out there...

Really NOT cool!!!...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Now IF the Marine was "sending the fur to Russia" sans cities tags and permits, he is guilty of the Lacey act, as well as about three different felonies concerning deportation of wildlife.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:01pm PT


Ron...

Is it LEGAL anywhere in the USA to trap or shoot Bobcats???...

I ask out of total ignorance, as I surely haven't got a fuking clue here...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Yes Locker,, just about EVERYWHERE! From Michigan to GAWGIA,, Kansas to Colo, Cali to Tuscon. They have a season in most states. Trapping is included. I estimate the population just around me to be about fifty or more in small corridor. They are trapped for their fur values and sold at the end of the seasons at market buying sites where they are graded in quality and sold to the highest bidders. Just like in the 1800s. I know some trappers that make 20 K a year doing that. BUT they shouldnt be trapping NEAR any residences , popular trails etc, That is a problem.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
I'm thinking Mike and Mari didn't have a mouse problem. cool picture
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:07pm PT


Thanks Ron!!!...

I had no idea it was legal...

hb81

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
He came right out and admitted it and was quoted in an LA Times article last week.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/11/local/la-me-bobcats-20130211

"We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do,"

Interesting logic.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
No prob doood,, and they are a CITIES animal, which means federally controlled and have to have a cities tag before any sales or transfers can be made. The State Wildlife depts issue those. Without a tag, the Lacey act comes into play nuttin but grief!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Fur trapping is super lame.

The animal suffers, and the historic significance of furs for warm clothing is no longer applicable in the age of synthetics.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Controlling the population of predators is NOT lame...An out of control population would be quite lame in no time though.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Scott, I don't always agree with you, but this is a good cause.
signed the petition.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
From the LA Times Article:
"We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do," Lawing said. "Nathan and I harvest adult male cats and turn loose adult females and kittens."

Reminds me of the infamous: "We had to destroy the Village in order to save it."

In this case, the trappers love the $$$. Which should not be confused with actually caring about the living animals.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
But i do think trapping near any civilization is a crappy idea. Just for this reason.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Making an animal suffer through being caught in a trap is lame.

I understand the population control argument, and firmly disagree with trapping.

Maybe we should start trapping stupid people to save our fragile environment...just put traps around fast food joints...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
I could put a DANDY trap in some hand cracks i know.. I dont trap myself,, cuz i like quick clean kills. But its good some do,, so the govt doesnt have to hire even more pro-trappers. Better the economy gets it than just costing us $$$$$$ per year.
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Brandon-

Us human beings are too stupid to really understand how stupid we really are .....
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Duhhh, you lost me there Werner. :)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
Credit: COZMIC-TOID INCORPORATED

yu-tawkin tu me Werner!??
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
All those wild animals sure are lucky to have us deceiding who goe's and who stays!

EDIT: "goes" thanks locker that must drive the grammar nazis crazy can't have that
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
The SMART ones always live. It was that way for humans once upon a time. No any NIT WIT can grease the govt tit. And suckle freely nary a care inda woild.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:38pm PT


You've come up with a NEW word...

"goe's"...

Could be a new trend in the military too...

A squad of GI GOE's could devistate any group of Bobcats...



LOL!!!...

Just fuking with you by the way...

Something about huffing GLUE does that to me...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
i go for the waft of bondo in the morning.. gets a ki-kick start to the d-d-day..

Now,, we can examine the stupidity of one Timothy Treadwell and his efforts to domesticate brown bears in AK. Any time humans begin to interact with wildlife, that wild life becomes USED to human scent and not fearful. It gets CURIOUS as to baits and odors the trappers leave as well as the trappers scent. So in a way, bobcats that are treated like pets MAY BE a little more pre-disposed to being trapped in the first place. It is nearly impossible to remove all human scent from or around a trap. No matter how much "juice" you have. Just food for thought.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:40pm PT

"The SMART ones always live"...


I don't believe that one...

But it sure sounded GUD...


LOL!!!...





Is it legal to SHOOT them during the season???...

















EDITED:

"i go for the waft of bondo in the morning"...

SAVE me some please!!!...

;-)

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Yes Locker here in NV you can shoot or trap them. Then get your tags from NDOW and you can sell them on the open market. Selling them to another country is a WHOLE OTHER ball of wax..


edit: and i got a fresh GALLON of glorious gold bondo.. Just the lid release ALONE is enough for a head rush!
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:46pm PT

Thanks again Ron!!!...

I have no "Comeback"...

I am sincerely just wondering...

;-)

locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
"and i got a fresh GALLON of glorious gold bondo.. Just the lid release ALONE is enough for a head rush!"...

Getting my plane ticket as I write this...

See you in a few hours!!!...

LMAO!!!...





EDITED:


Oops!!!...

SORRY for DRIFTING off topic COZ...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Shooting acounts for very few each year. If one really worked at it he maight get four a season hunting them. You see them, but RARELY long enough to shoot. They have a radar- and seem to know whos looking at them! So trapping accounts for MOST the bobcat harvest annually.



edit: and ZZZinnggg da party will be on! Bondo biscuits and brownies for all!



Now back to our regularly scheduled program..

Stop trapping near neighbor hoods dangit!
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:50pm PT

Signed. . . sealed and delivered!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Feb 19, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Saw one deer hunting in wva once. Watched it watching deer and cleaning itself like a house cat for a half hour. Never occurred to me to take a shot. I was too enraptured with such an interesting animal.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 19, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Thanks for posting this Coz.
Hashbro has been spreading the word too via fb.

Trapping sucks.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Feb 19, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Signed the Petition.

Thanks for posting COZ, hope the kat shows up.
Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
From 2 years ago:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1359470&tn=0&mr=0
Fletcher

Trad climber
The great state of advaita
Feb 19, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I signed.

Saw one on a little used trail when running one day 20 odd years ago in an open space preserve near Portola Valley (SF Bay area). Very cool animals.

And yup, it was just for a very brief moment.

My son's nickname it Bobcat too!

Eric
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
F*#k civil discussion. Trapping is cruel, plain and simple. I don't like hunting, but get that it can be done in a relatively humane way. Trapping is 100% BS, and the folks that do it are some seriously cold as#@&%es. Torturing an animal for its fur is not justifiable. No apologies for my language; it pales in comparison to the vulgarity of trapping.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
we're talkin live traps here.


Not leg holds.


Treating wild kitties as near domestic pets is as irresponsible as taking them out of season or on prohibited property (monument or private)

There's one that considers the campsite at the end of the loop in Hidden Valley his personal domain.

I called one in once when we were all up at the base of a climb somewhere back around Lloyd's etc. Saw him down on the desert floor and called him up.

Not sure who had the most astonished look.

My buds when they saw him headed up for us or he when he realized I wasn't a rival or potential conquest.
Steven Parker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Signed!

What in the hell are these deranged individuals thinking?

I think it's time to hunt some poachers...
...did i say that out loud?
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Thanks for posting Scott. I signed the petition. I had no idea this was going on out there.

can't say, that photo is heartbreaking if those beautiful cats were trapped by some knucklehead this winter.

"Bobcats are being targeted for the value of their pelts in top-dollar markets such as China, Russia and Greece. A premium pelt of heavily spotted white belly fur can earn a trapper more than $600, according to Nathan Brock, who skinned 10 bobcats that he captured in the Joshua Tree area during the hunting season that ended Jan. 31.

Brock, 38, an active-duty Marine stationed at nearby Twentynine Palms Marine Corps Base, acknowledged that one of his traps was set on private property and not on federal Bureau of Land Management grounds, where trapping is legal. The region is a patchwork of private property and BLM land.

"I feel horrible about that," Brock said. "It's my fault for not making sure."

The manufacturer of Brock's trap, Mercer Lawing of Barstow, said critics miss the point. "We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do," Lawing said. "Nathan and I harvest adult male cats and turn loose adult females and kittens."

I'm sure Mr. Brock feels AWFUL!! I'm sure he weeps over his actions.

"We love those animals more than the people who are complaining about us trapping them do,"

What The Fu--??? You love them so much you trap them causing great pain to the cat then kill and skin it so some rich foreigner can flaunt their status by wearing fur? You love the MONEY they bring you by killing them. What a prick.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Assholes like this guy at http://www.cagingbobcats.com appear to be a big part of the problem...



Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 20, 2013 - 04:50am PT
Signed
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:27am PT
Signed...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 20, 2013 - 05:42am PT
This entire industry should be panned. Immediately.

If today's generation is looking for a cause, this is it.



Look at this guy. He's so proud of himself and his work. :(

http://www.cagingbobcats.com/
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:55am PT
What a f*#king piece of shit! Like these animals (and the rest of that ecosystem) don't have enough trouble without some dickhead wantonly destroying them for their fur.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:15am PT
Signed petition. Levy and I had a long discussion about this a few weeks ago. Check out his link above, as well.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:33am PT
Credit: can't say
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:31am PT
For those of you seemingly shocked by the trapper pics, this is NOTHING new, and in fact goes on in nearly every state. Bobcats are PLENTIFUL and even with the trapping remain so. Trapping is the only control on that predator really. And that program is WORKING VERY WELL as we have a thriving population of bobcats from coast to coast. You may not like the methods, but the fact remains that it benefits the cats as well as the other wildlife to have a predator control plan. Personally i dont trap for many reasons mentioned here, but once again there has to be a control. , and i do recognize that, as all of you should. Trapping of bobcats has gone on since the native americans. And they THRIVE today because of that management. They thrive today because of populations that can sustain themselves. When an area like the cc river corridor right near me gets an unbalanced predator population, all other forms of wildlife begin to vanish. There i commonly see lion, bobcat and raccoon tracks and nowdays,, bears. What i DONT see in the canyon anymore is deer, rabbits, quail or even squirrels. The canyon has been hunted clean by a pile of predators. The bears shouldnt even be there- its NOT their habitat. They are there because of populations around lake tahoe becoming to great for that area- so they have expanded east. The canyon is steep and access is only one road through it, so trappers dont use it much and as a result, game species and other species commonly hunted by bobs are GONE.
So those pics of harvested bobcats may upset you, but TRY to think of the bigger picture here. Are Bobcats rare?? No way- seems everyone here sees them. For every one you see there are 20 more you didnt. Watching the ground will tell you that.
M&M

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:34am PT
Credit: M&M

This is what is imperiled.
Would we rather see this or see someone wearing it?
Our natural heritage or an export item to indulge foreign fashionistas?

How do we value wildlife?
Is it up to us to balance nature? or does nature take care of itself?
weezy

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:40am PT
but the fact remains that it benefits the cats as well as the other wildlife to have a predator control plan.

now we just need a Human Control Plan. shame we don't have one implemented for planet earth's deadliest and most destructive predator.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:44am PT
weezy,, we do. Its called WAR. Its called mechanized deaths by the thousands every year. Its called murder and killings to. Its aslo called climbing, mtn biking, surfing and skydiving..Weve all manner of controls.




edit: FYI,, in most states, GOVT trappers are paid full time to do nothing but trap bobcats, lions, coyotes. They will here in NV, also shoot on sight- ravens.. Most of those are taken in summer and worthless for anything, and are left to rot for the most. In an ATTEMPT to keep in check the predator populations. That is on top of trapping and hunting seasons.

I once ran a govt trapper off monitor pass not due to his trapping, but due to NOT checking his traps daily. I had seen three legged coyotes start appearing and knew exactly the reason. Even did an original acoustic tune called the three legged coyote. Im not without feelings like most of you.
But it seems ive been exposed to a lot more that most of you as well in some lines. There is no one here that treasures wildlife more than me. It IS my life. Im dependent upon its continuance, and the continuance of controls. And in fact, hunters and trappers have been doing a very good job of stewardship to the wildlife. ALL wildlife here is at all time highs now. The wild turkey now inhabits every state in the lowers. Elk, deer and antelope are once again abundant. Sheep now inhabit traditional lands again. And as for those predators, they too enjoy thriving populations, and hunting, trapping and controls have been going on for well over 200 years. Just like the Native Americans did as well.
In Texas they actually brought back from the brink of extinction - species of african antelope, and gave them to Africa for re-establishing in their natural zones. Hunters also introduced species like the chukar partridge and the Himalayan Snowcock, which resides in only one place in this hemisphere and thrives.

So you see, this is a symbiotic relationship that has been working well for longer than any of us have been here.
M&M

climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Credit: M&M
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:21am PT
The real world is a rough place. A species population fluctuations are not always a good thing. As a society we hire the best professionals we can to make the best decisions they can regarding proper wildlife management. Do they always make the best decisions? Of course not but they are much better at it than off the hip emotional uneducated decisions.

Sometimes those decisions indicate that hunting and trapping are good for an ecosystem or at least not detrimental.

Also I do not take lightly the fact that some people make a living this way and I do not condemn that way of living if regulated for responsible preservation of the ecology of an area.

Everything dies. In the wild death is often much less humane than the way a proper hunter or trapper does the job.

I also think its a really really bad form of governance for people without proper training to make decree's by petition when it comes to important science based ecology decisions.

To make your concerns heard is good. But I suggest if you really care about a species you should do some serious research. Inform yourself to find out if the harvesting is possibly a good thing for the overal environment and even the species itself.

Without that research you should at least be honest enough to say you are not informed well enough to have good advice on the suject.

I am definately not informed enough on the bobcat situation to have anything close to a reasonable opinion on the subject. I am sure the proper approach to this issue varies a great deal depending on the specific area in question.
Tan Slacks

climber
Joshua Tree
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
We have a bunch of chickens and in kind, we have a bunch of bobcats. I'd say over the last ten years we have fed the bobcats over thirty chickens!

We have a fenced in chicken house, but we like to let them out on sunny days. At first we just let them run around, then we lost our first chicken to our cat. So then we always let the dog watch the chickens while they roamed. That worked for awhile until we watched the bobcat grab the chicken from right next to the dog. So then .... we would stay out when the chickens roamed figuring that no bobcat would challenge us. Boy were we wrong, that bobcat would walk right up to me winked, yawned and then run off with another chicken. One day the bobcat took the chicken up our cottonwood... see the pictures and just ate it right there in front of me.

Never ever did we consider trapping or hurting the bobcats. Signed the petition some time ago

Thanks Scott for posting it here

Dinner in the tree
Dinner in the tree
Credit: Tan Slacks

The circle of life
The circle of life
Credit: Tan Slacks
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
I will ask a serious question of the folks that advocate for the various wildlife management plans that require massive amounts of selected killing of specific species; how did these species and ecosystems work before man came on the scene?

The argument, as I understand it, is that species like wolves or bobcats or whatever would, without the intervention of man, would quickly overpopulate and send the entire ecosystem into chaos and decline. To me, it seems odd that all these ecosystems survived for 1000s of years without man's systematic intervention, and that now it is imperative for us to actively manage selected populations.

I am not being facetious here; will some please give me a reasoned explanation as to how this is supposed to work.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
I guess we killed the wolves when we moved in, so now we are the wolves.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Have you ever thought that youve habituated that cat.? He now relys on your chickens when hunting gets tough. Now that is good for him up to a point. But WILD bobcats are amazingly shy and SELDOM seen. And only for a momnet then. Your cat is quite used to human interaction and scent. Which makes him MORE vulnerable to trapping or shooting from a hunter. Just like Timmy Treadwells bears became habituated to humans. Those bears would approach fisherman pulling onto a beach,, then lil Timmy would get all agro because they were throwing rocks at "HIS" bears, while HE created that whole UN NATURAL interaction by getting those bears used to human interaction.
Am i saying you feeding that cat chickens is BAD for all? Certainly not.
Hes like the wild pet you never had, and i totally understand. But he ISNT all natural. And that is due to you. Same for every Yosemite bear that ends up being put down. That is thanks to people and interaction with wildlife.


edit NRC,,,we once had un-inhabited lands here. Then came man. We now have a LIMITED amount of lands for all wildlife. Is that clear?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
NC rock

It's just the basic predator prey population relationship model. Something generally introduced in any basic biology course. Then expended upon in great detail if one goes deeper into the natural sciences.

Such that as predator population reaches a climax you tend to get a crash in prey populations which is then followed by starvation and disease in predators.

Then prey booms and it can face similar problems.

And the cycle then repeats.

From a purely humane point of view massive numbers of starvation and disease deaths are better off avoided.

Especially it is good to avoid population extremes that create a hotbed for disease evolution. As from time to time these may cross over into human populations.

Good management can help reduce these peaks and valleys of population extremes and the accompanied disease and starvation deaths.

Generally it's not a matter of survival of a species. But the argument that it is more humane and safer than an unharvested situation can be readily made.

Another way of looking at it is that man is a part of the natural world. He is naturally intelligent and capable of being a positive predatory variable in ecology.

crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
One common mistake in wildlife and wildland management is to assume that the system that existed before European settlement was pristine, unaffected by man, and that we can return to that system by leaving it alone.

Whereas in fact the native Americans extensively managed their land through hunting, trapping, and forestry.

From the balds of North Carolina to the once bountiful forests of the Rockies, it is gradually becoming clear that native Americans worked quite extensively at this management. And it is clear that all the neglect in the world will not return it to the state in which they maintained it before we obliterated their systems.

Now whatever the state of the land before the Indians settled it, before the Woolly Mammoths were extirpated, we will never know. But ignoring the need for management by humans in an environment that for so long has been dependent upon that management will not lead to anything most of you would like to see.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Ron, yes that is clear. I asked a simple and honest question. Why the dicky and condescending response?

cs2, that makes sense, but doesn't the "boom / bust" cycle serve a purpose? I mean, it worked well for a long time before we came along. Does the fact that the boom / bust is not good for hunting drive any of the decision making?

I am not 100% anti hunting, but have always suspected that a lot of the management plans were put in place so that there were enough deer and other trophy animals around for hunters to kill.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Most certainly land managers take into account the users of the land and are generally mandated to provide for hunting and trapping.

Fortunately this can dovetail nicely into good population management.

One might say that mistakes are made from time to time.. Infact one could argue that mistakes are ALWAYS made. Yet it seems to me that a little mistake from proactive policies is better than a major mistake from no policies.

One result that can arguably be made for allowing boom bust cycles is that it may increase evolutionary selection thus more rapid adjustment to changing environments.

Even for humans diseases may increase the species survival long term.

Harsh but true.

A tough balance with endlessly debatable priorities and outcomes.

But uneducated uninformed opinion does not seem to be in anyway a productive way to make these important decisions.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 20, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Didnt mean to come off snarky.. But i have explained that all in the previous few pages here.. More than once.

So apologies if i did come off that way.;-)

Really,, most all state wildlife agencies have rather informative websites. Ours here in NV is NDOW.org.

They have extensive studies available to view, management plans and much more.

Right now, in the carson tahoe area, NDOW traps and shoots predators. They shoot coyotes at washoe lake this time of year as they focus on raiding duck nests, and there are too many coyotes doing that. So the duck and none game water bird populations suffer un naturally.
They are trapping coyotes in the parks and walks near the river due to them attempting to attack pets as they are walked. Once again, because of too many coyotes in the area- so they are forced to hunt larger prey like jack russels, Shitzus, and other family members.

Govt trappers shoot ravens on sight every chance they get due to them being protected, and their populations and over populations are decimating greater sage grouse nesting, a bird which is close to becoming endangered.

These are just a few examples of management. And not all that different from my Choctaw ancestors..Like that chicken thieving cat upthread,, the native Americans would have worn that skin, and had the claws for a necklace.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 20, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
NP Ron. I do appreciate your response. You present a reasonable argument.

For me, it comes down to two issues. One is that it seems that when we (humans) try to alter or augment the natural order, we often cause many unintended consequences and make things worse in the long run. Nature, like most extremely complex systems does a good job of self regulating and doesn't seem to need our help.

The other issue is that the scale of destruction of wildlife (like what is shown on the trapping website linked above) is just disgusting to me. I know that nature is cruel, and I get all the arguments that start with the question "do you know what a slaughterhouse looks like?" However, apex predators, like bobcats, are having their habitats destroyed at an astounding rate. Sure there are lots of wild places still left in the west, but they are becoming fewer by the day. Despite the argument that this killing is helping to "manage" the populations, is seems like they are having a hard enough time finding a place to live without any more of our "help." The "management" arguments remind me of the classic quote from the Vietnam war about Ben Tre: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

CS2 and Ron, thanks again for your responses.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
However, apex predators, like bobcats, are having their habitats destroyed at an astounding rate.

We ARE the apex predator!



And the United States, especially the west is an astoundingly empty place.

Just stop randomly on about any highway and walk for fifteen minutes perpendicular to the road, anywhere from the Mississippi to the San Bernardinos.

Other than isolated urban pockets, more wildlife than human.

Closer to home, keep driving past 29 on 62 on any weekday and tell me how many cars you see in an hour?
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
Ron Anderson, you used to be OK - Skip and I were talking about you the other night.

Not so much anymore. Something in you has changed and become angry, abrasive and confrontational.

I understand injuries can get one pissed off, but you have undergone a very fundamental change in your behavior on-line in the last couple of years.

It is sad to me, I liked you at one time.

Erik
DanaB

climber
CT
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Bobcats do seem to be plentiful. We have them here roaming the UConn Medical Center campus. One walked across the road 30 yards from me a few months ago. Didn't seem the least bit shy, broad daylight, she/he sat down near the curb, licked itself a few times, then just sauntered away. Pretty damn cool.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 20, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
Mister E,, perhaps i have,, but if you had seen the DMT post before he deleted it, youd know why my reaction was such.. If someone says f*ck you long enough you finally give in and say it right on back. There are Three other posters on here that routinely demean and insult me as well,, and those receive the same these days as i tired of them too... Im coolio with everyone else here. Theres nothing i can do ifn your not coolio with me. Ill get on with things, just the same- as i always am...I gotta be me, no one else wanted the job.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Ron,

You are still cool, thanks for your view, I don't share them or agree, but I think your honesty is refreshing and I'm learning things I never knew.

Mister E, you seem never to have an opinion only choice words for those who do.





Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 21, 2013 - 08:17am PT
Coz,thanks for the vote of confidence. I do understand folks getting upset about their local wildlife. Im NOT in favor of trapping any where near residences or the like. I even have a grey fox locally here that often sneaks a snack from my garbage out back.
Like most of you, i dont trap. But i understand the value of trapping when it concerns predators. THe pictures posted in this thread show some VERY healthy bobcats because, they truly are doing FINE with current management levels. Personally ive only shot one bobcat in my life. He was reaping havoc on my bird pens when i raised chukar, quail and pheasants.
I wont shoot a mtn lion without cause, due to one letting me live. They are now a "spirit animal" for me- by happenstance not choice.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Bump,
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 21, 2013 - 02:20pm PT


I personally haven't seen any big change in Ron's online attitude...

Just see him finally getting a bit fed up with the few that HOUND him...


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 21, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
thats whut i thought too Locker. Im all about respect and doing on the internet as you would person to person. Every time i get it, i give it.

ANd i still have patience when it comes to my lil gang of cyber stalkers. Although i will respond a little more "in kind", as again,, given, and gets.

Hell, im a regular putty-tat. ;^)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Looks like they could use a few trappers in this neighborhood.

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