POPE resigns Now who do I follow on Twitter?

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 260 of total 260 in this topic
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 11, 2013 - 09:25am PT

Good Bye Benedict, resigns Feb 28th

New Pope chosen by end of March
dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Meet the new boss.
Same as the old boss.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Weird..don't old Popes usually hang on by their fingernails until they pull the pointy hat from their cold dead hands..literally ?

looked it up.. I guess he is acknowledging that he's too frail and old to continue


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/11/us-pope-resigns-idUSBRE91A0BH20130211

(exerpt)

"(Reuters) - Pope Benedict shocked the world on Monday by saying he no longer had the mental and physical strength to cope with his ministry, in an announcement that left his aides "incredulous" and will make him the first pontiff to step down since the Middle Ages.

The German-born Pope, 85, hailed as a hero by conservative Roman Catholics and viewed with suspicion by liberals, told cardinals in Latin that his strength had deteriorated recently. He will step down on February 28 and the Vatican expects a new Pope to be chosen by the end of March.

Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the Pope had not decided to resign because of "difficulties in the papacy" and the move had been a surprise, indicating that even his inner circle was unaware that he was about to quit.... "
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Who do you follow on Twitter?

Justin Bieber needs you.
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:42am PT
All Twitter followers are directed to #WaitForTheWhiteSmoke

crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 11, 2013 - 09:48am PT
Try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKvwCmEeouY
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2013 - 09:57am PT


On Facebook I only friend Nobel Peace prize winners!


Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:11am PT
^^ you're on Facebook?!
steve shea

climber
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:14am PT
No. This is all a result of his complicity in the Vatican coverup. The protection of priests proven to be guilty of sexual abuse and predatory behavior toward children. The guy is despicable. He could have excommunicated the offenders years ago but left many in place or in the priesthood. He should resign.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:23am PT
I heard that he will now be taking an executive leadership position with Halliburton and leading that corporations efforts to expand into the child pornography market.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:25am PT
"I guess he is acknowledging that he's too frail and old to continue"

Not hard to speculate that he's getting off the Vatican boat before the child-sex-scandal tsunami hits it.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Yes Rankin I am!

Although you are a true friend , you will not be a Facebook Friend!

Unless of course your LAW career takes you to heights never imagined!



GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!

Da POPE latest Twitter feed
Edit: "...both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me."
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
There's a pope?

WTF.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Just heard that he's the first Pope to resign in 600 years. Wow. That's unusual.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Just heard that he's the first Pope to resign in 600 years. Wow. That's unusual.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:33am PT
“I would have made a good pope. "

― Richard M. Nixon



Yep, he actually said that.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Has he tried praying for the strength to carry on? I mean, he's the fuking pope and all. People go to HIM for strength and power and guidance and sh#t... presumably because he has a direct line to god and not because he is a Sith lord. He tells women to find strength in god during an unwanted pregnancy and the rest of us to deal with the unwanted child... he tells homosexuals to find strength in god that they might be saved from their evil ways. Why can't Bennie find strength in god to continue riding around in his bullet proof golden chariot, surrounded by immeasurable worldly weath, and wave to the sheeple? It can't be THAT hard.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:44am PT
So he's given his Two-Week Notice...
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:45am PT
FA, Popes' Crack, JTNP
Lived in Bishop

Oh, so sorry. Wrong pope
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:45am PT


After he retires I hear he's looking for a position as a Boy Scout Troop Leader...

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Gak! He's just like Sarah Palin, quitting before the job is done!!
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:59am PT
He can take Sarah Palin's place as a Fox commentator.

Or he can be an assistant football coach.

Or something ferchrissakes.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
He can take Sarah Palin's place as a Fox commentator

I don't think the people who listen to Fox understand Latin
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
sure they do. Have you ever watched fox? Can you understand that archaic gibberish?

If that isn't Latin I guess it must be Arabic.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
"Beck University's coat of arms (based on Princeton University's coat of arms) features a quill, an American bison, and an image of George Washington, as well as the motto "Tyrannis Seditio, Obsequium Deo", which is Latin for "Revolution against tyrants, submission to God".

Do Fux heads need to know anything else?
The Call Of K2 Lou

climber
Squamish
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
You're concerned they don't speak Latin at Foks? I'm not sure they've got English sorted out.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
"Tyrannis Seditio, Obsequium Deo", which is Latin for "Revolution against tyrants, submission to God".


Dosn't the first cancel out the second?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Feb 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
10b4me....I saw the Pope yesterday skiing....He didn't look frail or weak and had that wry grin going....I forgot to kiss his ring and genuflect...RJ
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I had some Ex Benedict for breakfast today!
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

now thats what im talkin bout.

great humor and pun , thank you.



edit: are you an alter boy?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

good retort or what?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Follow me. Simple.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
After scores of new pedophilia accusations, and cover-up allegations, surfaced in Europe in 2010, the spotlight focused on Benedict’s own management of a case involving a German priest and sex offender while he was bishop of Munich in 1980. Despite promises to the victim’s family that the priest would not work with children again, the priest was allowed to return to the ministry, after which he molested more children.

Accusations also surfaced that a Vatican office Benedict had headed in the 1990s failed to defrock an American priest who allegedly molested 200 deaf boys in Wisconsin.


So his standard is that in spite of these transgressions, they are still priests in good standing.

At least Boy Scouting removes molesters as Boy Scoutmasters.

It also points out the value of the word of a Cardinal.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:38pm PT


"So his standard is that in spite of these transgressions, they are still priests in good standing."...


GOD will sort it ALL out in HEAVEN...

Have FAITH!!!...

rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Feb 11, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Good riddance to another pedophile by association by turning his back on the victims when he and and others before him had the power to stop it.

They are just as guilty as the rest of them.

Nothing to see here. Move along...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Who to follow on twitter now?


Well, why do you ask?


locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:05pm PT


What is the reason they don't let Catholic Priests and Nuns marry again???...

That one ALWAYS confuses me...

TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
I just hope there's a pope-mobile upgrade in the works.


Tee hee hee. I said "pope-mobile".
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
I met this guy once. He hangs out in Washington Square Park in NYC all the time. "The Pope Smokes Dope" was the high point in his career, promoted by John Lennon any Yoko Ono.

locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT


"I met this guy once"...


LOL!!!...

In case you haven't already noticed...

he SUCKS!!!...

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
lol, well, he's still out there playing in the park I think.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
The Ayatollah is on Twitter. Seriously.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:18pm PT

", well, he's still out there playing in the park I think."...


LOL!!!...

You changed the video clip...


THANKS!!!...







PS... I used to buy "CRACK" in Washington Square Park...

;-)

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Yes I changed the link. Cant really listen to this at work but I think the first video was the wrong tune.
FGD135

Social climber
Boulder Canyon Colorado
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Doin' the Vatican Rag!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvhYqeGp_Do&feature=player_detailpage
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Feb 11, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
10b4me....I saw the Pope yesterday skiing....He didn't look frail or weak and had that wry grin going....I forgot to kiss his ring and genuflect...RJ

good to hear he is doing well
Gene

climber
Feb 11, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Too pooped to pope.

g
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
I'm a gonna go for my buddy Guido here and Jimmy Donini, said he a gonna vota with me for once a.........

my mentor
my mentor
Credit: guido


Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Feb 11, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
This is just as bad as the political threads here. The Pope and all the Cardinals and Dioceses are the Politics of one religious group. But we've got a lot more to enjoy and post here than ragging on political/religious groups.....

The world of rock and ice and ocean and peoples of the earth to love and interact with and even help are open to us each day. Let's go for the good and leave the sheeee behind. just a thought. lynne

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
what would you prefer lynn? Should we just politely and with proper deference to authority turn the other cheek? If there is a powerful institution that deserves a strong and certain rebuke the Roman Catholic Church is it.

As Sinead Oconner has been pointing out for decades:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/02/11/sinead-oconnor-pope-benedict-resignation_n_2662169.html
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Have you done something about it or are you just throwing stones? I'm not catholic I just get tired of political rants. If you want to change the world do something about it. Talk is words blown in the wind.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Feb 11, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
He's critiquing, he's engaging. That's getting involved. That's doing something.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:13am PT
Lynn - I'm serious about Sinead O'conner. She risked her career and paid for it far more than gained. All she did was speak about what she observed and felt compelled to oppose. There is often no other moral alternative. The meek shall inherit nothing. History is now on her side, even if the power is still very much not.

There are more pragmatic alternatives, all to do with self preservation in one form or another.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 08:36am PT
Hot off the Twitter feed. get it while you can.

https://twitter.com/PopeBenedictXIV

"I join all those marching for life from afar, and pray that political leaders will protect the unborn and promote a culture of life."


I think it is funny that the Church is not sure what to call him after he leaves? LOL

Chinchen has it right-Quitter.

Hey LL lighten up " I just get tired of political rants." you know better than to even click them. Some people get tired of the Jesus lovers going on.
There is room for all of us.Everyone should just go about their life as they wish. God knows its short.

Edit, my grandma was wise beyond her years and I will always remember what she taught me, no need to talk about religion or politics with those who are not close and never say no to a girl because you dont know what her friends look like!
steve shea

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 10:20am PT
I do not see this as political. Just observations on a long term Vatican crime. All the sh#t rolls to the top in Catholicism. Not only was the the Vatican aware but complicit in the crime. Politically speaking the Vatican should not even be a state, accorded the diplomatic immunties granted nation states. The Vatican was created with another crime. A wink and a nod to Mussolini and Hitler and a look the other way all the time knowing of the genocide being perpetrated in WWII. The trade off was the Vatican was given state status and protection from the fascist regime. That is why they are a state today and enjoy the privileges associated. Silence. They are an entity unto themselves and answer to no laws but their own. That is why the coverup lasted so long. Ireland, almost appearing as a theocracy at times has all but booted the Catholic church as a result of the sex scandal revelations. .02 Italy does have good climbing though.
MisterE

Social climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 10:28am PT
http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/639773-lightning-strikes-vatican-after-pope-benedict-resigns.html
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 10:31am PT
The Vatican was created with another crime. A wink and a nod to Mussolini and Hitler and a look the other way all the time knowing of the genocide being perpetrated in WWII. The trade off was the Vatican was given state status and protection from the fascist regime. That is why they are a state today and enjoy the privileges associated. Silence.

Good lord almighty is that true? I'm going to have to look that up. I've always wondered about all that stoney silence during the holocaust.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 10:34am PT


Eric that is awesome!!!!





So help me God or may lightning strike!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:12am PT
check this out:

Pulling a Kissinger?

Only His Holiness can answer that. While Vatican spokesmen deny that the resignation has anything to do with difficulties on the job (the sex abuse scandals, the Vatican Bank crisis, etc.), we are all left to speculate. The resignation may well have been "a personal decision taken with full freedom," as Federico Lombardi put it, but I am less inclined to give it the "maximum respect" that Lombardi and others insist the announcement deserves. And that's not because I think that Ratzinger is essentially a selfish man who lacked the humility of many of his predecessors and was never truly worthy of the office. It's because "maximum respect" lets him off the hook too easily, allowing him to sail off into the sunset like Henry Kissinger, diplomatically immune to prosecution or otherwise free of any further scrutiny or accountability for his many misdeeds.

To be sure, there were several people willing to rain on the parade of accolades for Benedict this morning. The entire Irish Roman Catholic Church, for one, wasn't exactly throwing bouquets in his direction. The co-founder of Irish Survivors of Child Abuse said that the pope has let down abuse victims by failing to follow through on promises of inquiries, reform, or any Vatican commitment that priests or religious figures found guilty of child abuse will face civil authorities and be tried in the courts for their crimes. The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) can't be any happier about the pope's retirement. In 2011, SNAP filed a complaint at the International Criminal Court in the Hague against Benedict and Cardinals Tarcisio Bertone, Angelo Sodano and William Levada, charging all four with "command responsibility" for aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of children on an international scale.

This is from:


http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2013/02/12/Pope-Benedict-Resignation/
steve shea

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:26am PT
That is it, he's off the hook!
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 11:26am PT

Oh SNAP!


"The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) can't be any happier about the pope's retirement. In 2011, SNAP filed a complaint at the International Criminal Court in the Hague against Benedict and Cardinals Tarcisio Bertone, Angelo Sodano and William Levada, charging all four with "command responsibility" for aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of children on an international scale."

Da Pope smokes Dope!
Da Pope smokes Dope!
Credit: Fish Finder

Edit: is that Zip?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:50am PT
The phrase "command responsibility" is legalese from international law, usually applied in the war crimes context, but CCR who brought the civil case against them has to fit it into established legal categories. I think its the first time that something like widespread sexual abuse of children has been litigated as a violation of international law.

Even if the Vatican is an independent state, other states would be able to request the extradition of the offenders for violating their own states laws. Ie. an Irish victim should be able to bring a criminal case in Ireland and then the govt of Ireland requests extradition of the person from the Vatican. Extradition treaties streamline the process but are not necessary.

This is heading in the direction of prosecuting dozens or hundreds of priests around the world. But the Church proves this is necessary since they condone and cover up these crimes. Ratzinger himself could end up in the dock, if he lives that long.
locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:51am PT



locker

Social climber
FukUville
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:10pm PT


"This is heading in the direction of prosecuting dozens or hundreds of priests around the world."...


Sure HOPE it happens!!!...

The Catholic Church is not much more than a hideout for CHILD MOLESTERS and PERVERTS...



crunch

Social climber
CO
Feb 12, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Hey, Bruce Kay, there's a fascinating book about the relationship between the Pope and Hitler:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/B001RNN8P8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360689819&sr=1-1&keywords=hitlers+pope

This book is detailed, well researched, great reading, horrific implications.

The author's brother (quite the literary family) is better known by his nom de plume John le Carre.

A theme of this book, still relevant today, is that the Vatican's main policy is centralized, absolute power. No regional dissent is to be tolerated.

One of the accusations is that the future Pope Pius decided to consolidate the Vatican's influence over uppity German Catholic clergy. He negotiated a 1933 Concordat with Hitler, deliberately undermining and fatally weakening the popular, Catholic "Center Party" who for many years had been a moderating influence on German politics. The predictable result: the sudden, unstoppable rise of Hitler. The implication is that Pacelli just did not give a damn.

Fascinating stuff. But it gets worse. He'd seen this before. Eugenio Pacelli, same guy, was involved in the Balkans thirty years earlier, meddling that was intended to weaken dissent: the shifting of power he put in motion provoked violence, assassination and helped start WW1.

Did Vatican political machinations provoke both WW1 and WW2? Hard to believe, yet Cornwall has done his research, lays it all out. An excellent read.

Ratzinger is of the same mold as Pacelli. A ruthless person who understands full well the precedent he is setting. His resignation is surely a highly calculated, deliberate political act. Presumably intended to strengthen the Vatican's power by allowing the promotion of a new, younger, more vigorous Pope.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Feb 12, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Sadly religious persecution continues. People love to find fault with the human beings that are in charge of the Catholic Church.

Is their fault to find with the child abuse? Certainly. Can the church do a better job coming to grips with it? Certainly. Will strong direction from the top help? Absolutely.

Just as Western folks have trouble understanding Eastern behavior, it seems that many can't understand the thinking of many in the church. It isn't all about assets and money. There is another element here. Catholics believe in forgiveness and redemption. Catholics confess their shortcomings to their priest and expect that which is spoken will never leave the confessional. There was a belief that the bad priests could be repent and be redeemed. Finding the right line between those core beliefs and how to operate within our society proved to be difficult, and wrong choices were made. I hope that the new leadership will accelerate the process of reconciliation between the church and the people with regard to pedophilia. It is clear that it must happen and be transparent. In many corners of the church, that is happening today. It must become more universal. Anyone in our diocese who has any contact with children now must go through training and a background check. We have seen our priest pulled from our parish much earlier than the normal term to relieve other priests who have been removed from their duties for various reasons - pedophilia to stealing. Priests are on trial, and documents are being released.

Separation of church and state also makes this difficult. That doesn't mean that the boundaries can be worked out such that priests who abuse their position can't be dealt with by their chain of command as well as by civic authority.

Do I think that evading responsibility for the abuse scandal is the reason why the Pope is resigning. No. I do believe that an 85 year old man who can hardly walk and has a pacemaker may realize that he does not have the physical capacity to tend to a flock of 1.2 billion in this very dynamic world. Even Christ wondered if he had the strength to bear the burden he was given. I don't begrudge an 85 year old the right to retire.

The church has admitted that it wasn't perfect in the past. I doubt that any leader can make decisions at any point in history that will satisfy all people at all times. It still amazes me that JFK could be elected given the widespread distrust of Catholics. Other religions also face extra hurdles.

I would love to see one of several US Cardinals be elected. I think that they practical experience they have about this scandal could go a long way towards bringing the church to a better understanding of the proper boundaries.

There are comments on this thread that I find objectionable, certainly outside the boundaries of civil discourse. I respect your right to have an opinion different from mine. I respect your right to demand change, and I may share much of your passion that change happen. I don't share the lynch mentality for all people and officials in the church. The church will survive, and I want to see it evolve. It is a huge champion of the oppressed throughout the world and a huge deliverer of social services and hope, even within our own country.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 12, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Sadly religious persecution continues

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Justified criticism of an institution does not equal persecution. Even prosecution does not equal persecution - it is justice.

In fact, many of us allege that the opposite is occurring. The church has sanctioned and permitted persecution of many of its most vulnerable flock and has actively avoided accountability.

The church is not the victim here, other than of their own actions. If they were to account for their crimes I think you would see a sharp decrease in what you seem to consider "persecution" and a corresponding increase in respect for the institution.

The church has admitted that it wasn't perfect in the past. I doubt that any leader can make decisions at any point in history that will satisfy all people at all times.

This statement minimizes the magnitude of the crime. The whole point of the outrage centers around the church "satisfying" or accommodating the criminals for the purpose of protecting their own position of power at the expense of the weak and powerless. The church presents itself as a paragon of morality, yet it behaves in a manner completely opposite. We don't expect any human to be perfect, but we do expect any human to account for their imperfections, especially those who pretend to be high above us on a pillar of virtue.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 12, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Good post, Seamstress!
steve shea

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
From the holocaust to child sex abuse and rampant predatory behavior, the modern, post WWII, history of the catholic church has been hallmarked by coverup. Because much of this is just coming to light now is of no matter. It happened under the collective watches of the College of Cardinals since the days of Mussolini. The College reports to the Pope. At the least they were a buffer at the worst directly complicit. Raetzinger's main responsibilty as a Cardinal, near the end just before becoming pontiff, was to handle the 100's of sexual abuse cases that were being reported from around the world. NOT ONE PRIEST WAS EXCOMMUNICATED. He took this knowledge with him as the head of the Catholic church and did nothing! These travesties continue today. By continual support of these crimes against children and therefore humanity, through omission and coverup, how is Raetzinger any different than Jerry Sandusky? Sadly the good the church has done in no way mitigates what has gone on. Well said Bruce Kay.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Feb 12, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
We don't expect any human to be perfect, but we do expect any human to account for their imperfections, especially those who pretend to be high above us on a pillar of virtue.

I agree Bruce.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Here's a thought experiment for you:

Assume that there is a God, and that Jesus was what the Christians say he was. Now, ask yourself, what is lost if the Roman Catholic church is brought down. Smashed. No more Pope, no more Vatican, no more Cardinals and nuns and monks and priests.

Is God still there? Well, if there was a God, then there still would be.

Does getting rid of an insanely wealthy hierarchy mean that Jesus somehow isn't what he was? Again, whatever Jesus was or wasn't, the existence of Vatican doesn't change that.

So why get defensive when people struggle to bring down a bunch of corrupt bankers and disgusting child molesters? Are your religious beliefs so flimsy that you need what the Catholic church has become to convince yourself that they are real?
WBraun

climber
Feb 12, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Is God still there?

Yep.

God doesn't depend on religion or church priests yogis Brahmans humans animals all living entities etc etc.

They all depend on him counter to the stupid idea projected that man invented God.

John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:03am PT
Terrible post seamstress.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:04am PT
The Pope and the leadership of the catholic church helped know pedophiles to evade prosecution and the put them into positions where they could molest more children. To put is another way, they helped grown men to f*#k children. Despising the church and the pope for this is not religious prosecution. It is justified outrage! The catholic church is corrupt and anyone who supports it is complicit in its crimes.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Hey Werner


Word


Have you ever thought about starting a Twitter account!
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Finding the right line between those core beliefs and how to operate within our society proved to be difficult, and wrong choices were made.

Such an incredible understatement.

Evil was done and you fail to recognize it. You excuse it as a "wrong choice".
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:11am PT
BVB for POPE.
And the WHITE smoke won't be coming out of the Chimney.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281042

John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:21am PT
A mistake??? I'm having a hard time processing that. Lets see.. I suppose you could forgive them once, but more then once? Come on. The church sent them to "reprocessing and forgiveness training".. and then sent them on to unsuspecting churches. And then when some of them did it again,.. the church just sent them to a third world church.

And you call that a mistake?

I call it criminal.

The blind leading the blind. Thats what is going on in that church.

I believe that the previous pope was naive. I believe that this pope is evil.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:26am PT
One more time, in case all you catholics missed it. Priests rape boys. It happens a lot. You know it, the church leadership knows it and the pope knows it. They (church leadership and, specifically, this pope) help the priests who rape boys to evade prosecution and let them continue to work with children. Catholics who continue to support the church are supporting the rape of children. It really is simple; if you give the church money you are paying priest to f*#k boys. End of story.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:33am PT
How can god's representative on earth just up and RESIGN???


And since when does god need an agent? Who does he think he is - Sidney Crosby?
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Feb 13, 2013 - 01:38am PT
From the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/opinion/farewell-to-an-uninspiring-pope.html?_r=1&
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 02:53am PT
Someday there will be a thread for ST's graveyard gang to shovel dirt on the public schools, where children are ten times more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than in Catholic schools or churches.

(Or perhaps even a thread voicing indignation at males in the general population who abuse at a far higher rate than Catholic priests.)





But until then...let me cheerlead the indictments and burial...a wee bit of finger pointing makes me feel more elevated and pure than I really am....


http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 02:57am PT
Good grief Jennie.. you are defending the Catholic church by saying schools are worse.

Gee.. that person only raped 100 people. He is so much better then the person who raped 1000. What kind of defense is that?
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:14am PT

But until then...let me cheerlead the indictments and burial...a wee bit of finger pointing makes me feel more elevated and pure than I really am....

This is too funny considering that you are pointing a finger at us.

Also.. the schools didn't have a program that started at the top to hide abusers and transfer them to other schools.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:15am PT
It's hardly a defense, John. But, in perspective of immense national and world paradox of child abuse, I do question the major focus of the acrimony, HERE, being on the Catholic hierarchy.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:22am PT
Yes it is a defense Jennie.

You are attempting to make us feel bad about our criticism of the Catholic church by saying that there is a bigger problem in the schools. That is an attempt to take the heat off of the church.

The Catholic church deserves plenty of heat.

But oh wait. I forgot. Those priests are forgiven. We can just forget about them. Such a fine job the church did policing itself. Would you feel the same way if it was some other institution. What if the military had been doing this? I seriously doubt that you would be saying the things that you are now. But any heat comes the churches way and you are quick to defend them. Its sad to me. There is no defense for the churches handling of this.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:24am PT
Also.. the schools didn't have a program that started at the top to hide abusers and transfer them to other schools.


Apparently new York had an effective program to protect abusers

From the above link

"In an early [1994] study of 225 cases of educator sexual abuse in New York, all of the accused had admitted to sexual abuse of a student but none of the abusers was reported to authorities."

John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:27am PT
wow.. out of how many school districts you found one. My God Jennie.. There is no defense of what the Catholic church did. One district does not make a system wide problem. You fail to see the difference.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:36am PT
Are you assuming I'm putting forward free sanction to guilty priests?

I believe the guilty should be punished...not the 99% who suffer guilt by association...a concept seemingly skipped over in these mud-slinging fests.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:38am PT
No Jennie.. I don't assume that. But whenever anyone has anything critical to say of a purported Christian religion you are quick to try and take the heat off. Even when the heat is well deserved, as in this case.

a concept seemingly skipped over in these mud-slinging fests.

fine.. but please don't swipe me with your broad strokes.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:41am PT
I believe some of the comments on this thread qualify as more than "heat", John...
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:42am PT
Certainly there were comments that were too harsh. Do two wrongs make it right?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:39am PT
It seems this has boiled down again to defenders of religion vs. everyone else, yet again....

Look, most of us are just frustrated with the Catholic church - and it isn't just idealogical. His church stopped millions of condoms from getting into Africa, his church hides pedophiles... I don't know the Pope. I never met the man, I can only make assumptions of his character based on his actions.


It could be for health, I'll give him the benefit (benedict?) of the doubt for that. I get that Catholicism is a big part of the cultural identity for millions of people. I think its important that catholics be able to have all of their traditions and structure and I think those are important things.

But f*#k off with that hiding pedophile sh#t. That got a lot of people riled up, and we still are waiting for answers.


So no, catholics aren't bad, in fact they are awesome. Sometimes the most open minded of all the 'fundamentalist' religions (I mean not new-age-y bullshit haha). I mean, they have cosmologists for christs sake.

Get a bit better persecuting yer own as#@&%es, guys. I'm not saying the Pope was one of 'em, and you are MORE progressive than most big backward religions (Islam...) in a lot of ways. Just... STOP IT.

lol.

(I would follow Pandora Boxx on Twitter, one of my favorite drag queens. Way more entertaining. So that question is answered....)
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2013 - 08:53am PT
GDavis,

Thanks for the suggestion,

But are you sure that Pandorra Boxx can be as campy as the Pope?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 13, 2013 - 09:32am PT
There is truth in what jennie says but I suspect she is exploiting it to deflect the issue. Yes there are other institutions such as psych wards, the Boy Scouts, Various schools, Team sports etc etc where exactly the same abuses occur and should be condemned and held to account equally.

A common thread, it should be noted, is secretiveness and authoritarianism. The more so such a structure exists, greater the odds of abuse. Any surprises there?

Jennie is completely avoiding the real issues which distinguish the churches in this behavior.

1) The Church claims superiority of morality, particularly sexual morality. Besides claiming to be Gods own agents on earth , this is their Raison d'ette here on earth. They are significantly more hypocritical than any other perpetrators here.

2) The church chose - repeated and willfully and with conspiracy - to protect the persecutors within their ranks and thus further persecute the victims. They also blamed the victims, took forever to even aknowlege the sin, and a whole host of other forms of denial or minimization that continues to this day, again demonstrating astounding hypocricy in terms of morality.

3) The only possible reason for the lack of criminal prosecution is that either institutionally or culturally the church is considered so sacred that such a thing is unthinkable and even in the case of the vatican state, legally untouchable. This is idolatry of the worst possible order.

Jennie I have a question for you. Shouldn't you be more outraged than most, considering how the church leadership has betrayed and corrupted your faith?

The sin of the faithful here is defending and supporting the power structure for the purpose of , well, preserving the power structure. To hell with morality and to hell with accountability. Political power is more important. This is your achilles heal. The meek blind followers of authority will always lick their boots while being kicked in the head and shaken down for a more sheckels. You guys, paragons of virtue that you are, should be leading the charge and then rebuilding your church in something closer to what Jesus would appreciate.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 13, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Seems like a case study in what happens when you prevent men from getting married, I think priests cant have any sex and even masturbation is immoral. So they develop weird perversions. It's definitely hypocritical that they're on a crusade to stop people from using condoms, but no crusade agaist the child molester - priests.

The Vatican was definitely with Musillini and if you read Thomas Aquinas, he's got essays justifying killing all the women and children in wars, and is the proponent of the military's "just war" theory - ie, the ends justify any means. It's seriously screwed up, and at odds with modern concepts of human rights.
steve shea

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 11:12am PT
Jennie you are just misinformed. The Catholic church is an oligarchy. The power vested in the leadership is absolute. The paper trail from local dioceses to the College of Cardinals is a matter of record. Raetzinger's final work as a Cardinal was to deal with the sex abuse offenders. He did nothing but internalise and perpetuate the coverup. He took this knowledge to catholicism's highest position and did nothing. Furthermore to equate this to a school US school issue is nonsense. Child sex abuse of children condoned by omission in the catholic church is of pandemic proportion. 100's of thousands of cases. Originally the Vatican dismissed it as an American problem with our permissive culture. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ireland, central Europe, Africa, SE Asia,S America and lately a huge amount of abuse being uncovered in Canada. As I stated earlier the catholic church was complicit in war crimes also due to omission. During WWII they were granted nation state status in Italy by Mussolini. Why? The vatican agreed not to "interfere" with the work of facism. This culture of self preservation has been a cornerstone of the hierarchy to this day. I was raised catholic, my kids have been to first communion. I have a duty to speak. I think they have been guilty of crimes against humanity. Do you know babies are conceived in the Vatican with alarming regularity. The internal Vatican joke is "the only babies born in the Vatican are born by accident". The abuse of young girls is also a huge problem. They take the young and innocent to a hell they will never recover from yet preach morality.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 13, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
I have no dog in this race (other then the fact that I studied for four years in a Jesuits seminary) but here is an interesting and (for me) informative article in Tikun Magazine (a progressive Jewish periodical) written by two catholic theologians (or ex Catholics anyway)There new age-y solution is a bit much for me, but the critiques of Ratzinger/Benedict, as spelled out by Fox is quite interesting....

http://tinyurl.com/aabfbp9
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Jennie I have a question for you. Shouldn't you be more outraged than most, considering how the church leadership has betrayed and corrupted your faith?


I'm not Roman Catholic, Mr Kay. But I'm vexed by the panorama, here, villifying a huge and far-flung priesthood of (predominately) moral individuals and blackening a faith of many millions as sequel to the covert actions of a limited collection of deviants and the improvident actions of some leaders.

Yes, the guilty should be punished...but impugning the unabridged abstract of Roman Catholicism as pedophillic...suggesting there's just "something" about that belief system that trends toward child abuse is simply mistaken.

...and certainly an unjust arraignment in grim context of greater child abuse numbers in public schools and the full secular world.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 13, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
I'm not Roman Catholic, Mr Kay. But I'm vexed by the panorama, here, villifying a huge and far-flung priesthood of (predominately) moral individuals and blackening a faith of many millions as sequel to the covert actions of a limited collection of deviants and the improvident actions of some leaders.

Hi Jennie. The problem with this is that because the "huge and far-flung priesthood" has chosen to ignore the problems, it is hard to see it as a group of "predominately moral individuals." There may be a priest somewhere who was completely unaware that his leaders were consciously choosing to abet child rapists (to say nothing of many other ugly things), but virtually every single one of them was aware. And have been aware for as long as it has been going on.

This is not just a Catholic issue, or even just a religious issue. As you say, it happens elsewhere. And it should be exposed and dealt with wherever it occurs. But just because it happens elsewhere is no reason to ignore it in the Catholic (or any other) church.

The priests, by choosing to say nothing, are as guilty as the bishops and cardinals and popes of abetting the child rapists. Every single one of them, if their religious beliefs are not feigned, should be calling for a massive shakeup.

But they have done nothing.
steve shea

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
There is commission and omission. Those with knowledge of the crime yet do nothing are just as guilty as those who commit the crime. This is the most disturbing part. Even nuns in some dioceses knew and did nothing. Perversion was acknowledged and officially swept under the carpet as long ago as the 40's. Read about Mauciel and Pope Pius? This guy was celebrated by the church hierarchy and traveled the catholic world buggering kids and condoning like behavior in "far flung" dioceses by the catholic clergy. I'm done.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
When I was nine, I wanted to be the first American pope (I was an altar boy). When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut. Always reaching for the stars.

Who gives a flying eff? I was born, baptized and raised a Catholic, until 13 .Then I became an agnostic, and now an atheist.

He was not a good pope for the Catholic Church. But then, who has been? If I sound cynical, yes.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
I'm compelled to defer some judgement to the discretion of the Roman Catholic congregation. Perhaps most believe divine power comes from God...but without the presence, affirmation and funding of laity the Roman church could not endure.

Aside from the killing of innocents, I don't believe any crime enrages human beings more than child sexual abuse. I don't believe Catholics vary in their outrage to such abomination.

If Catholic people came to realization that the institution was indeed brimming with predatory priests and surfeit with clandestine maneuvering and arcane corruption...couldn't we foresee a critical mass in which members left en masse? That doesn't seem to be happening...

Many in the Protestant, Muslim and secular world would like the Roman Catholic church destroyed...that will only happen if nonclerical Catholics allow it happen...and I don't believe it will happen if principled clerics predominate, reform continues and devout members continue finding merit in the faith.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Let there be women priests and let priests marry. I am just speculating, but those two issues would help a lot towards predatory male pedophile priests. Maybe I am wrong.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
If Catholic people came to realization that the institution was indeed brimming with predatory priests and surfeit with clandestine maneuvering and arcane corruption...couldn't we foresee a critical mass in which members left en masse? That doesn't seem to be happening...

I don't believe that the church has gone far enough in its investigation. It used the theology of forgiveness to keep one of the leaders involved in the coverup in power and even allowed him to become pope.

The whole brimming argument just takes the emphasis away from what needs to happen. There needs to be a purge at the highest ranks. But I doubt that will ever happen. The membership is already appeased. This is why many people consider religious people to be simple sheep without the ability to discern evil for themselves. But then,.. most people are sheep. All that you have to do is look at politics in America today to see that.

John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Let there be women priests and let priests marry. I am just speculating, but those two issues would help a lot towards predatory male pedophile priests. Maybe I am wrong.

Unlikely this would help. There are plenty of married pedophiles.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Feb 13, 2013 - 04:26pm PT


The opening shot....is the best part.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 13, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
I've never heard of a group of scientists protecting pedophiles simply because they are members of the scientific community and share their same beliefs. That would be despicable.

There are plenty of cases where leaders of the Catholic Crutch defended/protected pedophiles because they are members the same religion. Yet people still bow down to the church leaders who defended/protected the despicable fukers. That is reason enough to pass judgement on the group as a whole.

But the pope did not require that Roman Catholic leaders be disciplined for past mistakes as some victims were hoping, nor did he clarify what critics see as contradictory Vatican rules that they fear allow abuse to continue unpunished.

THAT is fuking despicable.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Feb 13, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
I never want to be interpretted as protecting priests who abuse children from our justice system.

I did attempt to point out that there are many good works and purposes that the church serves. Without the Catholic church here, there would be no winter homeless shelter expansion, fewer food banks, no school supplies for impoverished children - among the programs I personally donate my time to. That does not justify priests harming children.

I attempted to explain some other factors - besides fear of liability - that might be an impediment to the church from acting as many people might think is natural. The forgiveness and redemption culture gives them a particularly hard time in properly dealing with intractable pedophiles. Absolutely they should have focused on their redemption WHILE they were serving their secular penance in our justice system. The congregation would not think that was breaching the sanctityt of confession but meeting its obligation.

While most people think that the church has done nothing ever to protect children, that isn't 100% true, particularly where I live. The practices within our church have changed radically in the last 10 years. Anyone who has any contact with a child for church activities must undergo a background check and attend safe training. That doesn't erase sins of the past, but it is action to prevent sins in the future. It is the main reason why we the number of youth activities that we have is much lower than the past. Let's take the youth group skiing, climbing, camping - training and background checks required - now where are the chaperones? I understand that it is necessary given the damage in trust.

As a catholic, I do feel the condemnation that people show to my relgion and community. I have no problem with shining a light on evil. I do have a problem with treating all catholics as evil, regressive, mindless fundamentalists. I was raised to form a moral compass guided by the church and to use it.

I should have known that the thread was really an invitation to pile up on catholics and the pope. Any comments to describe why the groupthink could be so off - not welcome. Punish everyone, not just the guilty. Instead of reform - kill it.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 13, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
Last week, a psychiatrist who treated a priest decades ago in a German archdiocese run by the future pope said he had repeatedly warned that the priest, who was accused of sexually abusing boys, should never work with children again. The priest was re-assigned to parish work almost immediately after his therapy began, and one of Benedict’s deputies at the time has taken responsibility for that decision. Less than five years later, the priest was accused of molesting other boys, and in 1986 was convicted of sexual abuse.

The pope did not address that case in his letter to the Irish, nor did he call for Cardinal Sean Brady, the head of the Irish church, to resign. Cardinal Brady said last week that he would step down if the pope asked, after revelations that he took part in a church investigation in 1975 in which two children were forced to sign secrecy oaths.

...

“There’s a strong tendency to approach this as a problem of faith, when it is a problem of church management and a lack of accountability,” said Terrence McKiernan, founder and president of BishopAccountability.org, which tracks church records on abuse cases.

People allow poor "management and a lack of accountability" to continue, simply because they believe the same fairy tales. Absurd and despicable. How can anyone in their right mind defend an institution like that?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/europe/21pope.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
Mechrist and Seamstress, I have known a lot of good Catholic priests (and not so good nuns, but grades 1-7 in Catholic school can do that, the lay teachers were the best).

The truth and the answers lie somewhere between. But one has to recognize that the Catholic Church and the Vatican, covered up a lot. Shame on them.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
Yes. It is by examining our weaknesses and addressing them that we get stronger. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, fixing institutions and destroying them. It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.

You don't think it would be a feeding frenzy if it were FLDS or Scientology or Disneyland or any other fantasy world peddler that ACTIVELY protected known child molesters?

You hold your religion in such high regard you are incapable of seeing just how fuked up the institution is, simply because you share the same fantasies. If the same thing happened with Disneyland I suspect it would be shut down.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 13, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
"Piling on" is a nice way to characterize the catholic church as a victim here, but what you are really doing is minimizing the blatantly evil actions of the leadership of the church. Think about this; the Pope, the senior leader of the church to which you belong, knew about priests that were raping boys. Instead of turning them over to local authorities (or even punishing them within the church system), he protected them from prosecution and put them in positions where they would have the opportunity to molest more children. This is standard practice in the church, and yet you still support it and count yourself a member.

All large and diverse organizations have good and bad aspects. However, when the leadership, all the way down to the parish level, condones and supports pedophilia, then that organization is corrupt. No amount of charitable work can wash over the tacit and active support of child molestation. You know what is going on here, yet you try to wash over the church's pro-pedophile stance by claiming that its good works exceed its evil, and in the process you become a supporter of the rape of children. I know you don't want to see it that way, but it is true.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Feb 13, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
you may want to read this

http://www.wnd.com/2013/02/final-pope-authors-predicted-benedict-would-resign/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Yes. It is by examining our weaknesses and addressing them that we get stronger. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, fixing institutions and destroying them. It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.

Steamstress, I think Catholicism comes in for such harsh criticism, because of two factors:

1. It has stood for protection of the weak, particularly children, and
2. It has done everything possible to stonewall investigations.

I live in LA, Cardinal Mahony's parish. It is clear that he actively participated in shielding abusers from the police. This took place over decades, and only a week ago, did the papers that demonstrated his actions, which he has fought in the courts for YEARS, did this come out.

The Church is complicit in all this, because they set no standard.
Is the abuse of children a mortal sin? Is it important?

Why, then, do some of these offenders, and their administrative defenders, remain part of the Church? While at the same time, a priest is defrocked for having a relationship with the woman he loves?

One action is disgusting and felonious.....the other is celebrated as God's plan for men and women.

Any slack that the Church might have, it LONG AGO squandered. The assumption at this point, based upon what it has done for decades, is that anything it has to say is a lie, told only to serve itself.

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
Good posts Ken.

If one Catholic priest was a molester or one crime was covered up by a small group, it would still be terrible but not a condemnation of the entire church. However, when the leadership of the church at ALL levels condones and supports, through its actions, the rape of children, it is corrupt. Anyone who remains a member of the church after they know about this is a supporter of pedophilia.

I know that a lot of you catholics out there do not want to hear this, but it is true. The catholic church has become NAMBLA hiding behind the veneer of religion, and the complacency and ignorance of its members.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
The practices within our church have changed radically in the last 10 years. Anyone who has any contact with a child for church activities must undergo a background check and attend safe training. That doesn't erase sins of the past, but it is action to prevent sins in the future.

How exactly does this stop pedophile priests who are sanctioned by the church? The fox is guarding the henhouse. You have done nothing about the fox. You have a serious problem which you haven't addressed yet. The pope is a prime example. He helped create the the system of hiding pedophiles.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
Don't pretend this is the first transgression of the Crutch. They have a pretty fuking pathetic track record.

"quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur"

"for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit."


But hey, the fantasy world they sell is pretty cool... heaven and all that sh#t.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
John 4:1

And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.
Matthew 24:4-5



Judas didn't betray Jesus, Peter did.

John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
In Sacramento the church had to sell a mobile home park that had been donated to the church on the condition that it keep the rents low for people on fixed incomes. The leadership in the Vatican created the problem, but they absolved themselves of having to pay for it.

Why didn't they sell one of their artworks in the Vatican to pay for it, rather then forcing retired people out of their homes?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 13, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
John M, it was the "christian" thing to do... something Christ would never stand for.

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

If the Catholic Crutch and Moron Church were corporations, they would be among the richest in the world.
John M

climber
Feb 13, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
I don't have a hatred of religion as some people do. I was raised in the Baptist church and my father was an elder in the church. I doubt that there is anyone in a Christian religion who went to church more then my family did and still does, excluding me. I have seen the good that organized religion can do. And the bad. I still believe that there are good people within the Catholic religion. I have no doubt that seamstress is a good person.

But when the Vatican forced the local parishes to pay for a problem they created, and then elected a Pope who helped create the problem, I lost any respect I had for the church itself. Are their good people in the church? I believe so. But that isn't good enough.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Feb 13, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Weird..don't old Popes usually hang on by their fingernails until they pull the pointy hat from their cold dead hands..literally

 my understanding, or what I've heard…. It's been close to 600 years since anything like this has happened…

Not that I care much…. the whole lot could go away and the world might be a little better (safer for those who are in Africa at the very least).
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 13, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
What do you mean "if?"

Those two churches serve the christian market for God Inc.

Look, I have no problem with people who have faith. Some of my close friends (actually, this includes my best and oldest friend), have a deep "faith-based" relationship with god. It is not my thing, but it works for them and that is cool. I do have a huge issue with many religions that preach and hold their members accountable to a standard that the church leadership wantonly disregards. I also have a huge issue with people that willingly continue to support and apologize for corrupt organizations. In the process, the apologists become complicit in the crimes that the organization is committing.
go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Feb 14, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
St. Malachy Last Pope Prophecy: What Theologians Think About 12th-Century Prediction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/14/st-malachy-last-pope-prophecy-theologians-prediction-_n_2679662.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl28%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D270352
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 14, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
You can take your prophecies and shove them up your a*#.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Feb 14, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Was unaware that I was a complicit pedophile, thank you so much for alerting me to that. Thought I reported a pedophile 35 years ago (work not church related). But apparently the fact that I am a practicing catholic that still sees many good works makes me a complicit pedophile.

Institutions and people are never close to perfect and full of flaws. Pedophilia is a horrible crime. I am objecting to condeming all. Yes I know that there have been pedophiles as priests, ministers, teachers, coaches, boy scout leaders, politicians, many occupations and walks of life. They should be brought to justice. Yet I have committed no act that makes me complicit in any of that activity. And I want to see the church continue, clean from that past. Perhaps you feel that the doors of all catholic churches, schools, and charities from each parish, diocese to the vatican should be shuttered and sold for reparations. Catholicism will survive, rich or poor. It has survived many awful times and unholy events. The power does not lie in the gold in Rome.

I have no issue with a frank discussion of how the problem should be handled. Apparently some do not want to consider identifying many root causes for the internal struggle with the issue. I offered that there may be more causes than greed. Thus I have been called an excuser and a complicit pedophile. I think the many root causes are important. That same root cause, if not dealt with, can have other bad consequences. Eliminate greed from the equation, that doesn't mean that the path will always be correct. The same issues about separation of church and state, the proclivity to believe in repentence and redemption, etc. will still be there. Perhaps the secular world only cares about preist pedophilia. What about pedophiles that are not priests that "confess" this to their priest? What about other crimes? Those are all questions that can provoke a very thoughtful discussion of how religious institutions fit into the world. What about the responsibilities of a lawyer working with a pedophile? This is not an attempt to deflect or minimize what has happened.

Complicit pedophile heading home for Valentine's Day. Cue to begin more stone throwing at all catholic house.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 14, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
They need to get this Pope guy on Dr. Phil or Larry King Live.
John M

climber
Feb 14, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
People are upset Seamstress. They tend to lash out when they are upset. You expect them to be perfect, yet you are willing to forgive your church.



You didn't answer my question. I will repost it.

Your wrote... The practices within our church have changed radically in the last 10 years. Anyone who has any contact with a child for church activities must undergo a background check and attend safe training. That doesn't erase sins of the past, but it is action to prevent sins in the future. end quote..

How exactly does this stop pedophile priests who are sanctioned by the church? The fox is guarding the henhouse. You have done nothing about the fox. You have a serious problem which you haven't addressed yet. The pope is a prime example. He helped create the the system of hiding pedophiles.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 15, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Pope accused of crimes against humanity in complaint to the International Criminal Court

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8760103/Pope-accused-of-crimes-against-humanity.html
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 15, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
You continue to dance around the issue. The church, from the very top down, helps pedophiles to escape prosecution. The put know pedophiles in positions where they are exposed to children. This is church policy, and is done on a regular basis. You know this and you STILL give money to this church. You, therefore are complicit in their crimes.

If the church was actively working to separate pedophiles from children and prosecute them, then I might be able to see your willingness to stay in the church. Sadly, the church has done nothing to bring know pedophile priest to justice and made only a weak attempt to protect children. Again, the culture of the priesthood, from the top down, tacitly approves of pedophilia and refuses to do what it needed to eradicate it from the church.

All the "good works" in the world do not wash away the evil stain of pedophilia. You argue that the churches good works need to be considered. I feel that, when an organization makes it their policy to harbor and enable men who rape boys, its is corrupt at its core. I would not belong to a church or any organization that did this. You feel differently, remain a member, and therefore support pedophiles.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 15, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
I like your logic. Are you a Jesuit? :)

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 15, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Nice! ;)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 15, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
The biggest wins you can achieve in this world.
1. Being voted President of the United States.
2. Being elected Pope.
3. Being considered soccer's best player.
4. Having Beyonce dump her husband for you.
5. Being a rock climber.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 15, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
this ought to be interesting, wouldn't you say Jennie, go-b and seamstress?

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episode/mea-maxima-culpa-silence-in-the-house-of-god.html


shakin' man

Trad climber
california
Feb 15, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
The church has lost all credibility IMHO. Seriously, robbing from the Cemetery fund to pay claims and now the following letter. I annotated it and I also love the "continues to be some confusion". Are you delirious Mr.Gomez?, I am not confused about this evil mortal man Mr. Mahony whatsoever.

Send him back to Rome, he can stay there.

Most Reverend Jose H. Gomez's letter
Most Reverend Jose H. Gomez's letter
Credit: shakin' man
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 16, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Why don't I "carry water" for Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, you ask Dingus??

Those affiliations may need a few sprinkles soon...as statistics from insurance companies indicate sex abuse is greater in Protestant and Jewish worship houses than within the cubicles and antechambers of Catholocism...

...and much, much higher in public schools!

True pedophilia occurs most often within families. And the most common perpetrators are married laymen and non-affiliated males.

But how statisfying it is to shoot down the "holier than thou"...and represent them as the most unrelenting child abusers.

And with due respect to your righteous anger regarding sex abuse cover-ups, Ncrockclimber...Seamstress is NOT supporting pedophilia because she remains a member and strives for reform in an institution that does much good and has made great headway in cleaning house.

This discussion has been comparitively civil, I suppose. Yesterday, I detained myself in a similar internet dialogue with dozens of profanity spewing posters seizing upon every theatric of projection to convey their own misbehaviors and dereliction onto the Papacy. And, Benedict, meek and academic, with that sheepish smile, is the pattern dupe.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 16, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Why don't I "carry water" for Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, you ask Dingus??

If calling out the histrionics of guilt transfer is commensurate with "carrying water" for the Roman Catholics, you've caught me toting a few gallons, sir. And those affiliations may need a few sprinkles soon...as statistics from insurance companies indicate sex abuse is greater in Protestant and Jewish worship houses than within the cubicles and antechambers of Catholocism...

...and much, much higher in public schools!

Thanks for the reply.

My take-away: you acknowledge the catholic church has hidden and protected known or suspected pedophiles from the law, but since 'those other people' are worse the catholic church is not deserving of the condemnation its receiving.

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 16, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
True pedophilia occurs most often within families. And the most common perpetrators are married laymen and non-affiliated males.

And that has NOTHING to do with the fact that top authorities actively protected and hid pedophiles within the Crutch. Would have the same response if we were talking about Disneyland officials rather than a christian church? I seriously doubt it.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 04:45pm PT



Sinners are Sinners were all Sinners at all levels.


Some things are tarnished and can never be polished

Change will come but the pain will never go away for some.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 16, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Sinners are Sinners were all Sinners at all levels.

Speak for yourself. I've never raped, molested, or murdered anyone... or sinned anywhere close to that level.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
I am not condoning any actions. And I meant that people in high places also sin not that all sins are equal

Religion is dead to me as I was not born with it but we are still all sinners.

What is more powerful religion or humanity?


The royal church crap has gone on for 2 long and it will tumble to a lower worth for those who do follow.

"ELEVEN AMERICANS will be among the 117 cardinals of the Catholic Church heading soon to Rome to select the next pope. One of them, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony, for a quarter-century the archbishop of Los Angeles, is lucky not to be in prison, for there is no dispute that he orchestrated what amounted to a cover-up of clerical sexual abuse in Los Angeles."

Disgusting and not so surprising how Benedicto got voted in.

I dont think the Dalai Lama resigned when he left Tibet.

He is not as fun to follow on Twitter as the Pope.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Now following https://twitter.com/DalaiLama
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
My take-away: you acknowledge the catholic church has hidden and protected known or suspected pedophiles from the law, but since 'those other people' are worse the catholic church is not deserving of the condemnation its receiving.

I could not have said it better myself. It makes me sad and angry to see this behavior.
John M

climber
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
I could not have said it better myself. It makes me sad and angry to see this behavior.

Yep.. Dingus nailed it. Thanks Dingus..

My take-away: you acknowledge the catholic church has hidden and protected known or suspected pedophiles from the law, but since 'those other people' are worse the catholic church is not deserving of the condemnation its receiving.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
My take-away: you acknowledge the catholic church has hidden and protected known or suspected pedophiles from the law, but since 'those other people' are worse the catholic church is not deserving of the condemnation its receiving.


I don't recall saying a strong measure of condemnation wasn't in order, Dingus.

But rebuke needs be conveyed to the guilty individuals. Catholic clerics number in the millions....denunciation of the guilty few not the entire hierarchy, most of whom are well meaning individuals.

Roman Catholic Church is a discrete entity. Much easier to target than ill-defined structures like "public schools", "fundamentalists"."the Godless""run-of-the-mill miscreants".

Compassion and concern for the victims and (righteous) anger at the guilty is appropriate.

Smearing everyone in the organization with the sin or projecting my own misbehavior and shortcomings onto them is not appropriate...
John M

climber
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
That hierarchy elected a man as leader/pope who helped create and protect the system that hid the pedophiles. What excuses that? Forgiveness? How could you ever trust that persons judgment? One might forgive someone for something like that, but that does not mean one then puts him in charge of everything.

The fox is in charge of the henhouse.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
You are free to substantiate your accusations, John...
John M

climber
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Its fairly well documented.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Is it?
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Feb 16, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
After he retires I hear he's looking for a position as a Boy Scout Troop Leader...

Is he going to be a GAY boy scout??? They would need to broaden their minds a little bit ;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 16, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
A list priests that the Pope defrocked for molesting MANY children would satisfy me that he was doing his best. How many is that anyway?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 16, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Thanks for responding jennie.

Cheers
DMT
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 16, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Yes, it is VERY well documented. Please take a few minutes doing google search and read the documentation. Then, please feel free to refute it. The Pope protected and enabled child molesters.

I appreciate you expressing the "other sides" opinion. However, I believe that you are defending a corrupt organization that supports pedophiles and NOTHING you have said changes the fact that the church, at its highest levels of leadership, and this pope specifically, protected pedophiles from prosecution and knowingly enabled them to molest children. The children are the victims here, and instead of recognizing that and being outraged, you try to shift the focus by pointing out that there are other more prevalent and "worse" abusers out there... and that makes me both sad for you and mad that you are tacitly supporting the hypocritical child molesters that run the catholic church.
Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Feb 16, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Vanna White probably is on Twitter and would provide intellectual entertainment equal to that old fool.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2013 - 06:55pm PT

Vanna White only has 2 tweets on her account and I wouldnt follow her to the bathroom, Can I have a bowel please?


Now Carrot Top might be as interesting as the Pope to follow!
steve shea

climber
Feb 16, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
The guilty are not few. They are legion. There are no well meaning individuals in the hierarchy. On face value it may seem so. But they are grossly duplicitous to the point of being criminal. What you fail to understand is that the College of Cardinals is a filter for world wide news reported from the catholic universe. The college votes on its appointments with final approval fom the Pope. Virtually every Cardinal knows every aspect of this, molestation, issue. Ratzingers office at the Vatican had one purpose. He was in charge of dispatching the molestation cases being submitted from around the world. They were overwhelmed. Ratzinger did not begin excommunication proceedings on one priest. He was then elected Pope and took this knowledge and the attendant conspiracy to the highest office. This is not only documented but a matter of record in courts from The Hague to podunk city. To deny this is ignorant at best and sympathetic at the worst. Do you deny the holocaust as well? Yes I suppose there are 'good' people. Were all Germans bad? If that is the argument, its weakness has been discussed and prosecuted in court of public opinion and the war tribunals at Nuremburg. Now I'm done. I could not resist as a non practicing catholic. Skiing was good in the Tetons today. BTW your broadstroke condemnation of public schools needs some fine tuning as far as documentation reaching the level of the pandemic perversion in the Catholic church. A few teabagger articles from the provinces are not even remotely comparable. If so, every school distict in the US would be suspect. Show me the proof. This revelation is on the order of FOX NOISE reporting and not worth the breath. Sounds like a right wing effort for more charter, community, and home schooling. If you want to equate any entity I suppose Walmart, Burger King, public libraries and banks have molesters. Bad argument. The Catholic church stands alone and set the bar.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 16, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
I'm reminded of the Milgram Authority Studies. Surely the submission to authority played a part here.

Question Authority.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 17, 2013 - 12:26am PT
Do you deny the holocaust as well?

....BTW your broadstroke condemnation of public schools needs some fine tuning as far as documentation reaching the level of the pandemic perversion in the Catholic church. A few teabagger articles from the provinces are not even remotely comparable. If so, every school distict in the US would be suspect. Show me the proof. This revelation is on the order of FOX NOISE reporting and not worth the breath.


My source is no less than the U.S. Department of Education, Mr Shea. The 2004 U.S. Department of Education report reported that "the most accurate data available" reveals that "nearly 9.6 percent of [public school] students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career.

The PDF file is on the web.

Hofstra University's Dr. Charol Shakeshaft, the organizer of the study, said in 2006, "Think the Catholic Church has a problem? The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

Your rhetorical question regarding the holocaust is inapt and is, aside from being swaggering insult, extraneous to the discussion.
BooYah

Social climber
Ely, Nv
Feb 17, 2013 - 12:32am PT
The Pope was a Nazi. Other Popes have been Nazi Enablers, if nothing else.
Evil Organization.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:21am PT
all the side issues of Nazi involvement or rates of sexual assault elsewhere are completely beside the point. Even leaving aside the "Holier than Thou" aspect, one only has to consider the obvious concerted effort of the higher levels of church leadership to shelter the various pedophiles from prosecution and to actively perpetuate the problem willfully and with gross negligence and a blind disregard for justice to damn them to hell. Why are you completely avoiding this fact with tactics of evasion and minimization?

Are you familiar with the Milgrams demonstration of how humans compromise morality under presure from authority? This behavioral stuff is fact. The Vatican is culturally immune from prosecution just as Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are immune from accounting for 10 years of war on fraudulent representation of facts. Clinton could get sacked for lying about a blow job but when you talk big conspiratorial fraud that hits at the very base principles of the institution in question it is a fair bit easier to pretend nothing happened. Facts mean nothing stacked up against the mythology of the institution - which the perpetrators leverage to full effect.

Jennie, if the Catholic Church hierarchy were to be found guilty and brought to justice for their crimes of conspiracy, collusion and obstruction of justice, how could that be a bad thing? Such could only be considered a good thing - correct? If this is true the ones most interested in seeing justice through should be the members of the church - correct?

Unless of course they are more interested in the maintenance of Church political status than justice being brought to the victims of the crime (the church members being amongst that group one would think!) Consider Millgrams Dilemma. We can all be good Germans can't we?

Go-b, now that you admit to speaking real english what do you think?

BooYah

Social climber
Ely, Nv
Feb 17, 2013 - 01:27am PT
All things are connected. It's how the Earth works.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2013 - 08:53am PT


Latest Odds by Paddy Powers

"At the moment, the front-runner for pope is Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet, with Italy's Archbishop Angelo Scola in second. Two Africans — Cardinal Peter Turkson and Cardinal Francis Arinze — are moving up on the outside. Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga from Latin America is also in contention.

American candidates trail very badly.

The odds of famous atheist author, Richard Dawkins, being chosen as the next pope are listed at 666 to 1.

Bono, lead singer for the rock group U2, is a long shot at 1,000 to 1."

He also predicts the new pope will choose the name Peter or Pius
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 17, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
no fan of Ratzinger, but just out of fairness, membership in Hitler Youth was obligatory, and 90% of German kids belonged.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
The 2004 U.S. Department of Education report reported that "the most accurate data available" reveals that "nearly 9.6 percent of [public school] students are targets of educator sexual misconduct sometime during their school career.

That ain't necessarily pedophilia... nor is it necessarily teachers raping 8 year old boys. Our high school French teacher was pretty awesome at sexual misconduct... from what I hear.

Check out Crunk Bear... the administration dealt with her how sexual misconductors SHOULD be dealt with when caught. Compare that to the Catholic Crutch, who transfer, hide, and protect their pedophiles within their institution. I think it is very sad that you can't bring yourself to see the obvious difference.

If the school administration ACTIVELY HID AND PROTECTED the offenders, you would be even more upset with the school system administration... but apparently only because they are not RELIGIOUS leaders.



one only has to consider the obvious concerted effort of the higher levels of church leadership to shelter the various pedophiles from prosecution
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 17, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Institutions and people are never close to perfect and full of flaws. Pedophilia is a horrible crime. I am objecting to condeming all. Yes I know that there have been pedophiles as priests, ministers, teachers, coaches, boy scout leaders, politicians, many occupations and walks of life. They should be brought to justice. Yet I have committed no act that makes me complicit in any of that activity. And I want to see the church continue, clean from that past. Perhaps you feel that the doors of all catholic churches, schools, and charities from each parish, diocese to the vatican should be shuttered and sold for reparations. Catholicism will survive, rich or poor. It has survived many awful times and unholy events. The power does not lie in the gold in Rome.

If you were a supporter of Mussolini, because he made the trains run on time, you would be complicit.

If you were a supporter of Stalin, because he brought order to the fight against the nazis, you would be complicit.

If you were a supporter of Al-Queda, because they bring pious devotion to Islam, you would be complicit.

You ARE a supporter of the church that had, and appears to still have, a policy of protecting pedophiles and fighting against abused children under it's protection.....so why are you not complicit?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Jennie, if the Catholic Church hierarchy were to be found guilty and brought to justice for their crimes of conspiracy, collusion and obstruction of justice, how could that be a bad thing? Such could only be considered a good thing - correct? If this is true the ones most interested in seeing justice through should be the members of the church - correct?


Mr. Kay, I've not posted remarks articulating or implying that the guilty should not be punished or that indictments with portentous evidence should not be prosecuted by the law.

I've expressed, hopefully in a courteous way, my melancholy at observing males go hysterical about sex abuse within the Roman Catholic Church yet communicate very little appertaining to venues in which child sexual abuse manifests itself most.

Child sexual exploitation within that church is revolting and ugly, agreed...

But child mistreatment by Catholic clergy is the tip of the iceberg...

ST discussion reiterating, over and over, year after year, the bombast and histrionics of Catholic demonizing... while passing casually over the great mass of baneful ice below the surface smacks of guilt transfer, I'm sorry.

We want immediate change...researchers at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice claim RCC abuse cases have "steeply declined" after 1985 and that responses to abuse has changed substantially over 50 years, with suspension becoming more common than reinstatement. U.S. law mandates immediate reporting of child abuse allegations. Yes, prosecuting those who shield the culprits is a means...but will prove as difficult as it is with secular cases.

Indicting the entire clergy and/or denigrating innocent lay Catholics for their membership is not civil response.
steve shea

climber
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
As is the public school nonsense you have introduced also extraneous to the discussion. You refuse to accept that supporting the catholic regime is supporting pedophilia. OK,you have it your way. BTW the lastest numbers on catholics have it at about 3.2 billion. There are not even enough students in the US to suffer 100 times the molestation. The Catholic church stands alone in setting the bar for child sex abuse. It has reached almost industrial proportion and stating that fact is unfair to the hierarchy? Yowza!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Indicting the entire clergy...

How about just indicting the administration (you know, that Pope guy and his buddies) that did the hiding and protecting?

If the same number of Disneyland employees were accused of molesting little boys and the administration protected and hid those employees, would you be standing up for Disney Corp?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 17, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Indicting the entire clergy and/or denigrating innocent lay Catholics for their membership is not civil response.

You must be misunderstanding me by a long stretch. I meant ( and stated) that prosecution should be directed at those who are incriminated by evidence. Prosecution would lead to being found guilty or not by the facts presented. It would and should be a case / cases of criminal prosecution no different than any other, which means only those who are incriminated by evidence are indited.

This would of course require all documentation held by the church and free access to all witnesses be made available. Only certain individuals (such as Ratzinger and co- conspirators) should be charged, not everyone who wears a funny hat. I'm puzzled where you got that idea.

You are right to think a great deal of my criticism is leveled at the entire Catholic congregation, just like I level criticism at the whole Muslim world for not leading the charge against Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Their tribal defensive posture is indefensible. All Catholics should be demanding prosecution. Don't you agree?

However that does in no way mean some sort of untenable judicial witch hunt should hold the whole religion directly responsible for specific crimes committed by specific individuals. That never occurs in other situations - why would it here?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
What is not "civil" is an organization that systematically protects and enables child molesters. A membership that does not actively protest this behavior from its leadership is complicit.

Obfuscate, deny, change the subject all you want. This has nothing to do with "catholic hate" or "christian hate," although it would be easier for you if it did. This is about an organization with a corrupt leadership. You cannot see that, or are choosing to not too. Either way, nothing I am going to say is going to change your mind...

With that, I am done with this thread.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Poor picked on worldwide religious majority (christians). Poor picked on majority sect within christianity (catholics). Poor wealthiest religion in the world who enjoys tax breaks while your leaders hide pedophiles and ride around in a golden chariot.

When will the world ever stop picking on you?

Good thing you have religious apologists like jennie.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 17, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
How about just indicting the administration (you know, that Pope guy and his buddies) that did the hiding and protecting?


Yes, if there's a righteous and well grounded argument against them...

"Indicting the entire clergy and/or denigrating innocent lay Catholics for their membership is not civil response."

"You must be misunderstanding me by a long stretch. I meant ( and stated) that prosecution should be directed at those who are incriminated by evidence. .I'm puzzled where you got that idea.


I discerned you were not proposing the indictment of all clergy from your posts, Mr Kay. The last sentence of my post was a response to some of the clamor and less keen-sighted opinions much earlier in the discussion. I apologize to you for not making that language more clear and specific.

Attempting a rejoinder to an assortment of converse opinions in one statement, a writer risks posting something non-congruous with certain individuals position...in this case yours.

You are right to think a great deal of my criticism is leveled at the entire Catholic congregation, just like I level criticism at the whole Muslim world for not leading the charge against Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Their tribal defensive posture is indefensible. All Catholics should be demanding prosecution. Don't you agree?


I agree Catholics should insist on prosecution of bona fide offenders...and I believe many of them are...

We could devote a long discussion to the whens and ifs of tribal defensive posture, I suppose. Being prickly and wary is inevitable, when so many on the outside are bellowing for the RCC to be razed to the ground. I believe lay Catholics will require, yes, demand valid and proper reform...the Church no longer presides over a feudal world and rendering unchristian practice in a Christian faith can't work if the devout are vexed and leave.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:17am PT
I'm glad to see we agree on all the important stuff. Nothing like a little direct language to clarify things eh? The prickley defensiveness I can fully understand as a natural reaction but in this case I think it cannot possible be sustained. The pricklyness must be redirected to the proper recipients.

I just watched the "Passionate Eye" documentary which I posted as a link earlier. I highly recommend it as it touches on all aspects of what we have been talking about, including the tribal defensiveness and "Omerta" code of silence, as well as the "diplomatic" immunity enjoyed by the whole freaking vatican state and the internal immunity of the pope. Utterly scandalous.
steve shea

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:08am PT
amen... Religion is a sensitive subject for some individuals. A live wire. Any reasoned and documented accusation cannot possibly be supported and is immediately relegated to conjecture or mean spirited attack. This is the problem with internet forums. Our topic here has been on the front pages for years. Extremely well documented. Being catholic I have strong opinions on this issue. If it were the Mormons I would have no horse in the race but an opinion nonetheless. We are all entitled to that. However blind faith is why so many consider organized religion as appealing to the weak. Not spirituality, organized religion. Spirituality is an entirely different subject.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 18, 2013 - 09:32am PT
I believe lay Catholics will require, yes, demand valid and proper reform...

One wonders.... when will this demand manifest itself?

DMT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 18, 2013 - 09:58am PT
Nobody will demand anything. They'll just feel guilty about it and then get forgiven.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 18, 2013 - 10:00am PT
This is not a difficult topic for me, a former Catholic who is not disappointed that so much effort and sacrifice went into sending me and my siblings to a parochial school.

"At least we learned to spell parochial and use it in a sentence. That's not something you find in most public ones."

THIS is the BS they gave us, that without the Church we'd be stupid, uneducated lumps like you public schools retards.

The organized religions of the world seem all seem to regard themselves as absolute and correct in all things, not simply doctrine.

When this happens, you need to go with the "comfort" factor of the religion, if you feel the need to share every Sunday and believe in that holy day of the week stuff.

When I feel God is with me and in me 100% of the time, it doesn't matter how anyone else but yourself interprets this feeling or asserts the same feeling. This should be enough to satisfy one. But it is nice to share, isn't it, and this seems to give an even more powerful, a better personal vibe. And this cannot last, because it is of the earth. People will eventually fall out, so there goes your religion, and you are left with egg on your face.

I had Eggs Benedict on Saturday morning. They were extra delicious.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Religion is a sensitive subject for some individuals. A live wire. Any reasoned and documented accusation cannot possibly be supported and is immediately relegated to conjecture or mean spirited attack. This is the problem with internet forums.

No, this is the problem with religion, not internet forums. Unless of course forum posters stand up and defend other forum posters they have never met who have been accused of molesting children, and the administrators of those forums who have hidden those molesters from the authorities, simply because they too enjoy posting on internet forums.



Jennie that's a mighty pretentious backstroke there. Your trainers must be proud.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Religion is a sensitive subject for some individuals

Anybody buried in the absolute certainty of nebulous dogma is forced into a position of pure defensiveness - known in polite circles as "sensitivity" - due to the inherent weakness of the dogma. If the dogma was secure all challenge would be welcomed and slaughtered.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 18, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Religions prey on weak-minded and vulnerable people. Catholics, Scientologists, they're all the same. They're Mysterians - they mystify people (and themselves) with ancient languages, made-up words, and the cornerstone of all religions, which is to get people to say they believe something that's totally impossible. Jesus rose from the dead, Mary was a virgin, then later in life suddenly flew up to heaven instead of dying. All religions are full of this stuff. It seems to be a part of every religion, that the members have to accept something as true, that intellectually they know must be false. That, and indoctrinating children with these ideas at the youngest possible age.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
According to Seamstress the reform has already happened. Such as background checks on all workers and volunteers in the church. How this deals with a corrupt leadership who sends known pedophiles to unsuspecting churches, I don't know.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
It deals with the corrupt leadership like a bandaid deals with necrotizing fasciitis.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
So we have an interesting situation in Los Angeles, with Cardinal Mahoney.

The evidence is now pretty clear, that he orchestrated a cover-up of decades in length, which caused many pedophiles to be enabled, and many children to be assaulted.

However, his cover-up caused this not to be discovered until the Statute of Limitations had run on his crimes.....he is not prosecutable.

He is now retired as Archbishop of LA. He resides in my neighborhood, and attends the Catholic church 1/4 mile from me. He is on his way to Rome, to vote on replacing the Pope.

What is the proper response from Catholics, for others to respect them, or for them to respect themselves? Is it to tolerate Mahoney in their midst? Is it for him to remain one of about 100 leaders of the Church, appointing the next Pope?

Is he who we should see as one of the leaders of Catholicism in America? This is the public face of your faith?
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Great example Ken. Thanks..
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 18, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
What is the proper response from Catholics, for others to respect them, or for them to respect themselves? Is it to tolerate Mahoney in their midst? Is it for him to remain one of about 100 leaders of the Church, appointing the next Pope?


Are there no real blue blood Catholics here that could provide insight into this question? Isn't Cragman a Catholic?


I think this whole dilemma is remarkably revealing of the true degree of morality that exists within the Catholic Church hierarchy. There seems to be some really big red flags that indicate:

1) There is little capacity for justice within the church political structure. No doubt the justification is that justice will be meted out at St. Peters gate..... so If you expect to ever recieve your just rewards you better continue to toe the line.

2) In the church all people are equal in the eyes of god, but some are more equal than others when filtered through the eyes of gods representative on earth.

3) The presumed superiority of morality held by the church is a house of cards held together with a little spit and a lot of political power.


All of this corruption appears to be concentrated at the top, but without the dogma enforced deference and capitulation of moral values by the inferiors at the bottom it could not be sustained.


"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Frank Zappa
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Feb 18, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Isn't Cragman a Catholic?

I don't think so BK - I think he bats for the Protestants. They got started by protesting what was going down in Rome. 1517 ( although I had to look that up ......... )

I'm not sure that any bent-knee Catholic could really give a reasoned response to this issue.........heck, my kids have an elderly great-aunt in Quebec who says all the First Nations are lying that priests molested the children in the residential schools.

Faith-based responses will always be connected to that individual's beliefs.....even if they do apparently fly in the face of evidence.

Personally, I think Benedict XVI resigning speaks to something us hairy unwashed never will know about...........so it's all mental speculation.

As for Mahoney ? Burn in hell.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
You gotta wonder..... if this little conundrum dosn't shake their confidence a little - what exactly would?

I guess that is the power of absolute faith huh?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
If you can bring yourself to believe in transubstantiation, virgin birth, and zombies I don't think you will have a hard time believing the priests are innocent.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Mahoney isn't just a great example... he is THE example. I think its safe to assume the rank and file Catholics have no say and will have no say, in Mahoney's disposition.

At all.

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
If they were good Christians they would stop being pussies and stand up for what is right... but they won't, because they are just catholics.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 18, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I believe lay Catholics will require, yes, demand valid and proper reform...

One wonders.... when will this demand manifest itself?


It has...and hopefully will continue to, Dingus. The sharp decline in molestation accusations reflect bishops becoming alarmed about the situation and starting to take preventive measures. Complaints, activism and litigation by lay Catholics have been the effective force.

Even balky bishops who sent corrupt priests to other parishes rather than excommunicate them...did so out of outspoken complaints from their congregations.

The era of unprincipled priests menacing and bullying their flock is in sharp decline.and has been occasioned, in toto, by exertions of lay Catholics.
John M

climber
Feb 18, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
It has...and hopefully will continue to

Meanwhile, priests who helped create the coverup and extend the problem by sending pedophiles to unsuspecting churches continue on and even get to help pick the next pope.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 18, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Are there no real blue blood Catholics here that could provide insight into this question?



I was wishing Sullly would post. She's Catholic, attended parochial school (I think), teaches in the public schools and isn't afraid to swim against the gruff currents.

She may have left during the palace revolution... after the breast buffet was administered the mercy stroke and put in the garbage disposal.

I hope not.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Thank you again for your considered response jennie. Luckily, for the sake of little kids, we are a highly litigious country. I'm not convinced 3rd world catholics suffer the same levels of protection, self-induced or otherwise.

As to your last question, she said she was leaving. She should be good for her word?

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Jennie says the reform has begun, so I guess that's that. So for starters, how many accused priests have been defrocked? How many church leaders have been tried for covering up the child molesters?

How does that compare to priests accused of having "inappropriate" relations with females?


Glad we are off to such a great start!

praise jesus

Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Dont make me delete this thread!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 18, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Just for my own curiosity...

I wonder if there's a correlation of individuals who post lewd images on the internet and those who rail constantly and scathingly about OTHER mortal's sex offenses...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 18, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Oh jennie, yes posting naughty pictures of well endowed ladies is a "sex offense" ... right up there with molesting little boys... I should be ashamed, but I'm not.


I like posting pictures of boobs, therefore I have no right to condemn child molesters.

You believe in ridiculous fairy tales, therefore you defend organizations and their leadership that protect and hide child molesters.


Ah, the mindset of the religitards.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 18, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
I wonder if there's a correlation of individuals who post lewd images on the internet and those who rail constantly and scathingly about OTHER mortal's sex offenses...

Jennie you wield a sentence like Beatrix Kiddo weilds a katana. Lol.

DMT
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Feb 18, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
mechrist I 'm not fond of the fukkin' boob pix either and I have zero interest in religion, hold zero affiliation to any church .......never have, never will.

Jennie might believe what you don't. Duzn't mean you have to be a dick about it.
steve shea

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:36am PT
I think there is a correlation between organized religious zealotry and selective recognition of the fact. But that has always been the case. I get good humor when the Witnesses come by. Now and then I will take the time to listen and argue. I know I'll never get that time back but it is entertaining. Is there a saying about arguing with fools? I guess I am a fool. BTW did you hear the reason for Ratzinger's resignation? "For the good of the church" Hmmmm. Now he can fade into well deserved obscurity. Listen to Wagner's 'Flight of the Valkyries' and reflect on all those young innocent lives he destroyed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
I have zero interest in religion, hold zero affiliation to any church .......never have, never will

so remind us why you clicked on a thread about the pope?

Jennie was having her ass handed to her (civilly, but firmly). I was just giving her an excuse to not answer the questions. I'm very generous that way.

How many priests accused of molesting children have been defrocked/laicized? How many church leaders have been tried for covering up and/or hiding the child molesters?

How does that compare to priests defrocked/laicized for having "inappropriate" relations with females?

The tits are there as a visual reminder that enjoying an ADULT'S sexuality is commonly punished by the church... but apparently sexually abusing a young child is not.
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
We click on this dumbsh!t thread at times to watch mechrist do his usual bullsh!t drop a bomb at someone then deny, attack, and then become reverse victim.

The usual bullsh!t psychological games you play all the time to frame or lure someone into your stupid psychotic fantasies because you're bored at work.

Everyone can see thru it but you.

Stupid American .....

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
All you know about me is what I've sold you, dumb fukah.
I sold my soul long before you ever even heard my name.

Satan owns you all.
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Classic ... now attack and reverse to playing the victim ^^^^
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
You are an idiot WB.

Why are you always picking on me?

Don't you have anything better to do?

Stoopid guru!
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Classic .... attack then reverse to victim ^^^^

Everyone can see thru it but you .....
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
I pretty much agree with everything he's said. Normally I'm more a "live and let live" person but the Catholic Church is going beyond the normal victimization of religions with the child abuse scandal. It will eventually end up as a bigger scandal in the courts, and Ratzinger, like George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld, will be unable to travel internationally since there are people everywhere who want to see him locked up:

U.N. body says U.S. lax on clerical sex abuse cases

"In 2010, Benedict was named as a defendant in a U.S. law suit alleging that he failed to take action as a cardinal in 1995 when he was allegedly told about a priest who had abused boys at a school for the deaf decades earlier. The lawyers withdrew the case last year and the Vatican said it was a major victory that proved the pope could not be held liable for the actions of abusive priests in their dioceses." - he won't get away forever, but may not live long enough to be prosecuted...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
(.)(.)

Satan owns you WB
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 02:10pm PT



Werner ? are you calling me a dumbsh#t? hahahaha



Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Feb 19, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
This was an interesting and (mostly) uniquely civil thread with some extremely articulate and thoughtful points made. now it's just typical Stupidtopo gone off the rails.

carry on

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 19, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
I think jennie rocks. Talk about calm under fire.

DMT
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Yeah Jennie rocks for sure.

She's always cool under fire.

mechrist when backed into corner turns into a crying girly man ....... :-)
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 06:31pm PT



Yes Jennie is impressive.

Even though I dont agree with her stance, I respect how strong she holds it.

Very cool and calm around these trollbots.

There are some really good posts here .

Hey Werner- do you think humanity or religion is stronger?
WBraun

climber
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Humanity is the anchor of all knowledge and truth both spiritual and material.

Sectarian religions and processes have beginnings and ends.

Humanity is eternal.

But one must perfectly understand what humanity really is .......
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 19, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
I'm certain the reduction in abuse incidents is a result of parents not leaving their kids alone with priests. My parents put me through all the catholic stuff and I was sometimes alone with the priest or with a small group (nothing ever happened to me). We are doing the basics with our kids and I'd never allow my kids be alone with the priest. He is a cheerful clearly gay guy and probably not a pedophile, but who knows.

I, like probably most, am more of a cultural catholic in it for a little ritual a few times a year, donuts and coffee.

Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 07:35pm PT


"Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the retired archbishop of Washington, said the new pope must first of all be able to communicate the Church's message, especially to the young.

"You don't necessarily need a rock star, but you need someone who can talk to young people," said McCarrick, 82, who has passed the age ceiling of 80 and cannot vote this time."

from GMA News
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 19, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
It would be great to have a cool Pope like John Paul. (Or Father Guido Sarducci)

Seriously though, someone who does for the Catholics what the Dali Lama is doing for Buddhism.


Here's a message from God for the new Pope:


1. Popes, Cardinals, Bishops & Priests need to do what Jesus would do.

2. It's okay for women to be Popes, Cardinals, Bishops & Priests.

3. All pedophiles get excommunicated and go to prison where they can truly contemplate the word of God.

4. Popes, Cardinals, Bishops & Priests can marry and raise families. (They've done it before and the world did not end.)

5. Gay people can be Popes, Cardinals, Bishops & Priests. But if they are pedophiles they get excommunicated and go to prison.

6. Dump the Old Testament. We only hung onto to it market Christianity to the Jews. If they haven't joined up by now, they never will.

7. Re edit the New Testament, cut all the marketing bullshit out of it, bring back any testament that was from anyone who hung out with Jesus.


I've got more but by now, no one is listening.


Spider (the lesser prophet) Savage
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
Some Catholic scholars speaking on the resignation on KQED (including one of my thesis advisers by-the-way). No brilliant breakthroughs in thought, but gives one a bit more insight to how committed Catholics look at the issue IMHO.

http://tinyurl.com/bat93ja

click on "listen to the broadcast"
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Dingus , everybody has their story to tell,
Dont be such a dick
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
She won't believe you.

Molesters look to Catholic employers because hiring is less stringent than at public schools. My college track coach (I went to a Catholic college) was molesting our top runner since she was thirteen. He went from Catholic school to Catholic school coaching girls teams. I testified against the bastard who was found guilty in a civil case. Last year he was coaching kids in Indiana. Because of a google search by some parent that turned up the court case from so many years ago, the guy was fired.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
Of course she'll believe it. She knows ALL the charges are true. Doesn't change her perspective about defending the catholic church because that defense has nothing to do with pedophilia nor 'histronics' about pedophilia.

I don't expect you'll explain the real reason for this long term impassioned defense of the catholic church, now will you jennie?

;-)

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
I'm guessing it is the same reason my 7 year old niece flips out when I call her Disney princesses ugly.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
I don't expect you'll explain the real reason for this long term impassioned defense of the catholic church, now will you jennie?


No...

But if Ivan the Terrible-Chipper turns out to be a Catholic Priest...I may go round the Merry-go-round a few times for Wes' sake :-)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Lol cheers!

DMT
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 20, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Did Sullly post ?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
I hear Ivan Greene has a lot of new followers. Give that a shot....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Sully did post. Then DMT was a jerk... what a jerk.

Here you go Jennie...

Molesters look to Catholic employers because hiring is less stringent than at public schools. My college track coach (I went to a Catholic college) was molesting our top runner since she was thirteen. He went from Catholic school to Catholic school coaching girls teams. I testified against the bastard who was found guilty in a civil case. Last year he was coaching kids in Indiana. Because of a google search by some parent that turned up the court case from so many years ago, the guy was fired.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Thanks, Wes.

I wish Sullly would rejoin ST...she has many friends, here.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
I hear Ivan Greene has a lot of new followers. Give that a shot....


Mothers are going to stop naming their boys Ivan

Ivan the muderous Tzar of Russia...Ivan Boesky the stock trader who stole millions on Wall St...Ivan (Marchenko) the Terrible who destroyed thousands at Treblinka death camp...

Now THIS ??
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 20, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
Did Sullly post ?

Who?

DMT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 22, 2013 - 10:06am PT
Pope resigned same day he received report about gay sex ring extortion etc.

Take this job and shove it, lol.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 2, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
The only reason I think the Moron church is (marginally) better than the catholic church... if you can't get your eternal truths right the first time, just tweak them as you go... revelation is a wonderful thang


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55930173-78/church-lds-changes-mormon.html.csp

"The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise (see 2 Samuel 12:7–8 and Jacob 2:27, 30). Following a revelation to Joseph Smith, the practice of plural marriage was instituted among Church members in the early 1840s (see section 132). From the 1860s to the 1880s, the United States government passed laws to make this religious practice illegal. These laws were eventually upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. After receiving revelation, President Wilford Woodruff issued the following Manifesto, which was accepted by the Church as authoritative and binding on October 6, 1890. This led to the end of the practice of plural marriage in the Church. "
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 2, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Religious organizations can be like discriminatory country clubs...If you belong to a specific church then one has the potential to be rewarded with employment and monetary gain much like a god old boys club..When religions move in and monopolize a community , non-members suddenly become descriminated against....Rumor has it that the Mormon Church is infiltrating the eastern sierra via Mammoth Mountain and other public agencies....If true , i find this repulsive and perverse...What does the free market have to do with spiritualism and or religion....?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 2, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Katie Holmes leaves Tom and Scientology to join Catholic church.....

col126.mail.live.com/

sullly

Trad climber
Mar 2, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Seamstress,
Get a load of this course.
http://shar.es/jwibC
The last three sessions look interesting. David Kennedy worth the price of admission alone.

All I remember about Vatican II is that it ushering in the God-awful guitar mass.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 2, 2013 - 09:09pm PT

Welcome back, Sullly

...been a whit bit disappointed seeing customary posters decamp and venture away from ST.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Mar 2, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I remember the guitar masses and liturgical dances. Folk group at 9:30 mass in hopes of keeping young people engaged in the church. We had such a blast in our little group. Different time and place. Quite a change from the Latin masses when I was little.

I haven't checked this thread in a while - not loving the personal accusations hurled. Must have felt my name come up!

Now to get back to practicing the music for next week's mass. I play once a month while two of our musicians are snow birding it in Phoenix. I play keyboards. The guitar playing dude clearly leftover from 1965 needs some help, but I haven't played since college. I know that the people in my church are angels as they haven't lynched me. Four months of practice can't hide the 34 year break in reading or playing music. So "SAve Your People, O Lord" from my assault on their eardrums.

Hoping for an inspired selection from the conclave.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 9, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
by Thomas Doyle | Mar. 2, 2013

VIEWPOINT

Way back in 2004, in the early days of the seemingly endless struggle for justice by the victims of several priests from Los Angeles, I had a conversation with one of the attorneys who represented several of these men and women. He said, "By the time this is over we are going to find out just how much Roger Mahony's cardinal hat is worth." I suspect that neither of us realized that this was truly a prophetic statement. In the end, the cost was calculated in dollars, trust, respect and faith.
The cost must also include the loss of truth.

The media responses to the final order to disclose all the files of predator priests and descriptions of the 10-year saga that preceded the court's decision on Jan. 31 do not come close to telling the full story of the nightmare that led up to that day. The last major act, Archbishop Jose Gomez's meaningless censure of Mahony and Mahony's whining retort on his blog, is all about them and not about the real core of this almost incredible decade of events. At the heart of it all are the victims of Los Angeles priests, several hundred men and women. Yet the legal battle that went on and on not only overlooked them but continued to heap pain on their already scarred souls.

The media could not possibly recount the massive toll this took on so many people. The price of Mahony's red hat is certainly steep in dollars. He retained an army of expensive lawyers to defend his intentional mishandling of reports of sexual abuse, and then to create legal roadblocks to the disclosure of the culprits' files. The real cost of his hat was in people.

There were 508 victim/survivors as plaintiffs in the cases that eventually were settled in 2007 for $660 million. They had been put through agony during the months and years they were manipulated, lied to and revictimized before any of them went to court. Then the first phase of the nightmare began.

The settlement process was long, tedious and so byzantine that no one could possibly describe it with any accuracy. All the while, the lawyers retained by the cardinal were doing their utmost to prolong anything resembling a just solution. When the bishops' cheerleaders throughout the country accuse the victims' lawyers of being greedy, they should take another look at the dozens of attorneys who made up Mahony's brigade, all of whom were high-priced and none of whom worked pro bono for even an hour. Whenever the cardinal appeared for a deposition or meeting involving the cases, at least six and often 10 lawyers accompanied him. Who paid the legal fees? The "people of God" of the Los Angeles archdiocese. Who else?

How many of these people of God could have benefitted from the money diverted to the lawyers and to the public relations firm as well? We will never know.

The process took its toll not only on the victims but on their lawyers, all of whom were working on contingency, which meant they were looking at financial doom if the whole venture fell through. They worked far above and beyond what was required for what they earned. Some were so disgusted with the never-ending antics of the church in court and at the mediation table that they left the practice of law when it was all over. A number who had at one time been practicing Catholics lost all respect and trust in the institutional church. One lawyer spoke up at a gathering after the settlement and said, "I don't believe in God anymore." This man had not only represented victims in Los Angeles and elsewhere for years, but he had provided for many the emotional and spiritual support so essential after their experiences with the church. He told me once that he had to make 70 cross-country plane trips to Los Angeles for the case.

As part of the 2007 settlement, the archdiocese agreed to disclose the files of the perpetrators. The ink was not dry on the settlement before the cardinal launched what would become a seemingly endless series of legal objections and procedural delays that at one point went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The core of Mahony's legal claim to prevent the disclosure of what he had already agreed to was the idea that all communications between a priest and his bishop are privileged in the sense that they cannot be disclosed without violating the First Amendment. He and his legal crew based this on what they called the "formation privilege." Priests are always in formation and their bishop is like their father, guiding and teaching them along the way, or so their story goes.

The Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office asked me to write a declaration in support of their request to get the files. I did and in it I presented documentary evidence that the "formation privilege" was a fiction of the cardinal's imagination with no basis in canon law, theology, church history or custom. The archdiocese lost. Naturally it appealed, and I became one of its targets. A significant part of its opposing brief was not a serious challenge to the content of my declaration but a detailed, invasive personal attack on my character, credentials and motivation. It got them nowhere; a special master overruled just about every objection lodged against the declaration.

From there the cardinal's appeal went to the California Supreme Court where, on July 25, 2005, it was again denied. Mahony and his lawyers appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. On April 17, 2006, the Supreme Court refused to review the lower courts, hence their rulings stood.

That battle involved the files of two priests. One would expect the cardinal and his team to get the point, but they did not. The fight continued until this January. Even then, with final defeat looking them in the eye, the cardinal's lawyers planned yet another strategy for yet another postponement and more time to spin, twist and delay. It was not to be. On Jan. 31, the judge ordered the trove of about 30,000 pages of documents released and that they had to show the names of the cardinal and his aides.

Shortly thereafter it was discovered that the archdiocese had released only around 12,000 pages and that many of those had the names of church officials blacked out, contrary to the judge's order. The public response was swift. The cardinal's lead counsel, Michael Hennigan, said he had no idea why the documents were missing, and promised more would be forth coming. More spin and roadblock right up to the wire!

The saga is not over and probably never will be. The damage extends beyond the victims, their families and the key players in the legal debacle, to the church itself. The cardinal, in his self-serving obsession to first shortchange the victims and then to protect himself and the archdiocesan administration from the exposure of their despicable actions in sacrificing the innocence of children for the clerical image, has severely damaged any possibility of healing. This nearly decade-long nightmare has plunged the hierarchy's barely existing credibility into a tailspin.

From the papacy on down, the Los Angeles abuse history is marked only by narcissistic efforts to save a terminally shattered image. There is little doubt that Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessor knew the score in the archdiocese. Unconfirmed reports say Vatican representatives were in on the settlement negotiations. After all, $660 million is not small potatoes even to the Vatican.

How much is the cardinal's hat worth and who paid the bill? In the end the dollar costs are astronomical but pale by comparison to the costs incurred by the people of God who have paid the price of this colossal betrayal with their faith.

[Thomas Doyle is a Dominican priest, canon lawyer, addictions therapist and longtime advocate for clergy sex abuse victims. He worked as a consultant to lawyers representing abuse victims suing the Los Angeles archdiocese.]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 9, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — A newspaper known for unflinching coverage of the Catholic church scandal was rebuked by a bishop in its own backyard after calling for his ouster in a battle that illustrates tensions between U.S. bishops and groups that call themselves Catholic but aren't sanctioned by the church.

The National Catholic Reporter, an independent Kansas City, Mo.-based weekly, called for Bishop Robert Finn's removal or resignation in September, after he was convicted of failing to report suspected child abuse.
John M

climber
Mar 9, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
Its hard to even fathom... And the wolves still guard the henhouse. Thanks for posting that stuff Ken.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
White smoke a few minutes ago
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
False alarm, they are just taking a break, smoking a bowl
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Will the new guy bring the church into at least the 20th Century?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Mar 13, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
nope
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Some people still believe in Santa, too.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
An Argentinian pope.
QITNL

climber
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
I had bet on the Italian, now I'm out 5 Hail Mary's to my mom.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
I gave your mom 5 "oh gods"
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Git yer pope on, bishes. I was hoping for Pope Snoop Dog.


But that was a long shot.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Hope the next pope isn't Cardinal Giacomo Biffi. He thinks the antichrist is here now and is a vegetarian.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/668048.stm
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 13, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
He is Italian. I would go with 2.5 hail Marys.....

He is old and the runner up last time.

Just another Ground Hog Day going on here.........

;-(
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Jesuits.......Why?


Decree de genere (1593) which proclaimed that either Jewish or Muslim ancestry, no matter how distant, was an insurmountable impediment for admission to the Society of Jesus. The 16th-century Decree de genere remained in exclusive force until the 20th century, when it was repealed in 1946

Stolen from Wikipedia..... Sounds to me that it was only repealed because of the atrocities of WWII.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
If you call me Francis I will kill you:

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Papal_conclave_2

labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Mar 13, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
;-)

Not much of a reaction. I was hoping for more.

Edit.
I do think WWII was the reason for it getting repealed. Extreme things seem to wake up the church a little and help it move forward. Unfortunately many people died and will continue to die. The Catholic church's practices in third world countries continue to perpetuate poverty.

:-(

TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Will he wear leggings?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Mar 13, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Gotta keep 'em poor and submissive. The best way for any chruch to succeed is take away birth control options and sex education. Poor uneducated mothers = poor uneducated children = healthy chruch.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2013 - 11:40am PT

Credit: Fish Finder

Sweet. Harmony restored. Pope Francis Tweets!

from Huff Post 4/20
"Pope Francis On Twitter: @Pontifex Account Blowing Up As New Pope Asserts Social Media Presence"



"Pope Francis is blowing up the Twitterverse.

With many of his nine multilingual accounts actively pulling in thousands of new followers every day, the polyglot pope has already become a force to be reckoned with in the land of social media.

Though the Argentine-born pope has tweeted only a handful of times since last week's papal election, his few tweets garnered plenty of attention. On Tuesday, for example, Francis -- a native Spanish speaker who is conversant in English, Italian, French and German -- tweeted a message about papal ministry in multiple languages. Within five hours, at least two of those posts went viral, having been retweeted thousands of times.

According to Cathy Lynn Grossman of USA Today, the pope's nine @pontifex handles have been attracting about 200,000 new followers daily.

As of Tuesday, Pope Francis -- who, incidentally, follows only himself on Twitter and has been identified as a social media newbie -- boasts a total of about 3.98 million Twitter followers. This number includes the 2 million people who follow the pope's English-language @pontifex account and more than a million who follow the Spanish-language @pontifex_es.

Though papal predecessor Pope Benedict caused quite a stir when he first entered the Twittersphere in December, insiders say Pope Francis' presence on social media will likely be even more significant in the coming months and years.

For one thing, Sean Hudgins, a social media intern for Pope Francis who attends Villanova University, told Mashable that the new pope will likely be tweeting much more often than his @pontifex forerunner.

"We're hoping it becomes even more frequent than what Benedict had before," he said. "Benedict's [tweets] were kind of sparse, and I think a lot of people want to see with this Twitter how to be more connected to the people, and I think Pope Francis, that's something that his brand is -- to be more of a people person. So we're hopeful these tweets will be that."

Moreover, Vatican communications strategist Greg Burke told USA Today that the multilingual social media reach of the world's first Latin American pope will also be important for the pope's ministry.

"It's a global church, and the Twitter followers are starting to reflect that. Clearly we expect to see a bit of a jump with Pope Francis, and not only in Spanish," Burke said Monday of the popularity of the pope's Spanish-language @pontifex_es account. "I can't wait until @pontifex in Spanish passes up the English. Latin America is where we have to get the message out, and Pope Francis can do that."

Ultimately, experts say that social media will be an important tool that Pope Francis and the Catholic Church could use to reach believers and non-believers alike, especially as Twitter and other social media platforms gain in popularity and social importance.

Case in point: On Mar. 13, Twitter played a standout role in the spreading of the news of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio's election as Pope Francis. According to Twitter, the announcement generated more than 130,000 pope-related tweets per minute, totaling more than 7 million tweets about the papacy that day. This, according to Mashable, was the "second biggest Twitter event of all time," topped only by the 20 million-tweet deluge triggered by President Obama's reelection in November.

"[T]he @Pontifex account is likely to be a central piece of the Vatican’s new media strategy for years to come. As a new pope takes over, it will be interesting to watch how the strategy evolves," wrote Forbes tech writer Alex Kantrowitz after the pope's election."
Messages 1 - 260 of total 260 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews