I really wonder why people do this climbing thing

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Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
There are a million ways to be a human being and they are ALL worth while.

Death isn't the end my friend....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 6, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Sorry I posted at all. F*#K!

Like I said, I wasn't after you in any way. I just found the ping pong thing a little unbelievable.

And no, I don't care enough to go research it some more. And I totally understand if you don't either!

Climbing is way better!!
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 6, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
If no one died climbing, and no one was at risk of serious injury, would the sport be the same?

I think that for trad climbing the answer is no. Risk, or perhaps I should say the confrontation and management of risk, is an intrinsic part of trad climbing. I don't think this point is arguable, in fact I think it is one of trad climbing's defining characteristics. Anyone who doubts this will have to find an explanation for the endless passionate debates about the effect of adding bolts to run-out traditionally protected climbs. The folks who add the bolts say, correctly, that they are reducing the risks. Those arguing the other side say the bolts destroy the challenges of the the climb and make it something less than it had been. In brief, less risk = diminished climb.

Of course every climber, at every stage of their career, has a broad range of options about how much risk they want to confront. Some, at least some of the time, crave a lot more than others, and nature, at least nature unmodified by the drill, is happy to oblige.

I'm not saying that trad climbers climb in order to take risks. There is no shortage of ways to take risks and climbing is far too much work if all you want to do is roll the dice with your life. I think the attraction of climbing is fundamentally biological, and that makes it unique among voluntary human pursuits. As I've written on some other thread, just hang out in one of the parking turnouts on the Needles Highway in South Dakota and watch what happens when a car with kids stops for a look at the scenery. Before the parents are even out of the car, the kids have all rushed to the nearest formation and are trying to climb it. No one had to tell them about climbing, they know what it is and they want to do it.

You can be sure that if you scattered a bunch of tennis rackets and some balls and nets around, the kids wouldn't be grabbing the rackets and trying to volley the tennis balls. No matter how ultimately compelling, tennis is an entirely artificial invention; climbing is on the other hand in the human genes. If anything, we should be surprised that more people aren't drawn to it.

Further evidence for the human climbing imperative comes from our language, which is rife with climbing analogies for describing achievement and success. We speak of climbing the corporate ladder, the pinnacle or height of achievement, reaching for the stars, upward mobility, and so on. Mythology and religion ensconce the gods, whether malevolent or benign, on mountain-tops, and seekers make pilgrimages to high places to encounter the sacred and the divine.

So really, is there all that much to wonder at? It is perhaps more interesting to wonder how such a primordial urge is educated or socialized out of so many people.

But there is a missing connection between the two aspects I just described. The kids in the Needles turnout are drawn upwards by the human instinct to ascend, but they are not interested in taking risks, are usually unaware of the risks inherent in the activity, and are typically overwhelmed with fear when they suddenly realize they have gotten a bit too high and don't know how to get down. I've had to "rescue" a few, as have many other climbers in similar situations.

Before the advent of the motorized drill, I'd say that risk came along with the territory, and if, as you grew up, you managed to hold on to that climbing imperative, then you understood that nature imposed certain hazards and that you would have to learn how to deal with them. This was the implicit contract in the "freedom of the hills" concept.

Then came, I think, a new aspect: the ability to perform in the face of those risks, the ability to deploy both skill and equipment in the neutralizing of those hazards, provided its own sense of fulfillment, and as climbers learned to develop the necessary emotional and technical control mechanisms for performing safely in a dangerous environment, they came to respect and value the ability of others to do so at a high level of achievement, and they incorporated performance in the face of danger into their views of what was fulfilling and worthy of respect.

And so we got mountaineering and then trad climbing. Sport climbing upended the situation by (frequently if not universally) filtering most (but not all) of the risk out from the activity of ascending, and so it is that the majority of climbing deaths occur in an alpine or trad environment.

Even if we appreciate and even embrace the role of danger in the activity, we can nonetheless be saddened and horrified at the deaths that result. I've lost two dear friends, a number of acquaintances, and know of many more. I've been on rescues of desperately injured climbers and have recovered the bodies of others. I don't share the illusions of some who claim to have made adjustments that render them completely safe. I introduced my daughter to climbing, but unlike many posters here, I breathed a long and heartfelt sigh of relief when she found something else, music, to be a far more compelling pursuit.

Although it hasn't been my path, I think I understand how you climb, give it up, and then wonder how anyone can bear to do it. I would never accuse John of not being a climber because he now wonders why people do it. He has arrived at the other side of an arc of experience that not all of us follow, but his moments in climbing were like our moments in climbing and his pleasure and fulfillments are ours as well.

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 6, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Of course, but that isn't my point, which is that the risk of that happening is intrinsic to trad climbing and not to sport climbing. And it is a mistake to think the distinction is between gear and bolts. The climber who starts up an unknown face with a drill in his back pocket, not knowing when and whether he or she will be able use that drill, is engaging in a form of trad climbing as demanding as any.

By the way, I'm not trying to argue some kind of "superiority" for one or the other.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Feb 6, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
I started thinking about people I had climbed with over the years, who got killed in the mountains; Charlie Fowler, Alex MacIntyre, Kevin Bein, Tom Hurley(UK), and Al Rouse (UK).

I'll keep doing it while I still can.

As Jimmy Dunn told me, "it's better than a god damn nursing home!"
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Feb 6, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
rgold, great post. Nice to see you posting in the thread, been a while since I've seen you write - have missed your other posts here I guess. Enjoyed the read.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 6, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Thats an easy one to answer

because ordinary views become a glimpse of heaven on earth when your all jacked up on fear of falling, maximum heart rate, and oxygen starvation.

LilaBiene

Trad climber
Feb 6, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Lots of good food for thought, here. Thanks to everyone for contributing such a broad range of perspectives and approaches to the question.

Noodling...
Crackslayer

Trad climber
Eldo
Feb 6, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
I really like that Jimmy Dunn quote. That is friggin' hilarious. My favorite climbing quote is Alex Lowe saying the best climber in the world is the one having the most fun. I used to tell my clients that guidng.

I have had numerous moments when I doubted climbing as a good thing in my life. All in all though, I keep coming back and now my life is pretty much based on it everyday. I kind of have a "Well, I have nothing better to do," sorta attitude. Seriously, if I wasn't climbing, I'd probably be bombing sh#t with ELO or god knows where.

If I fall and eat it, on a rope or not, at least it was a blast getting there. Every trad climber has been in that situation where it could have been game over with one lapse in concentration and everyone keeps coming back. So ya, sh#t is bound to happen to someone at some point. Obviously we wish things didn't happen but isn't that what keeps us coming back? The thrill that "oh sh#t I'm fuked," moment followed by the euphoria of getting past that.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 6, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
rgold-

Further evidence for the human climbing imperative comes from our language, which is rife with climbing analogies for describing achievement and success. We speak of climbing the corporate ladder, the pinnacle or height of achievement, reaching for the stars, upward mobility, and so on. Mythology and religion ensconce the gods, whether malevolent or benign, on mountain-tops, and seekers make pilgrimages to high places to encounter the sacred and the divine.

Very nicely said rgold. Fvckin' awesome in fact!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 6, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
Because its awesome... maybe you shouldn't climb.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Feb 6, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
I am not a risk taker. Yes I raced Motorcycles, yes I have single handled sail boats. But I did those thing for the beauty of doing something that I was ( am ) good at in an environment I love. I wasn't good at school, but I can take almost anything apart & fix it. I hate crashing, but I love the feeling of pushing my bike ( or car ) at it's limits. & for me school made me feel like a failure. The first time I started feeling good about me was when I realized I could drive a car fast than anyone I new. I never had the money to race cars, but bikes I could at first afford & then people started giving me bikes & gear. I was never a great rider, but I was faster than most & I could tell the team what was right & what was wrong. & If need be I could show them how to make it faster.

I am NO dare devil. I don't like dare devils.

I like beauty, I love when my body can make beautiful fluid moves. I like to be in control of me.
john hansen

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
I thought I would get beat up pretty badly on this thread, but it has been surprisingly cordial. Thanks every one for posting your thoughts.

Some one said " you used to climb, but you were not a climber" Ouch.
Other people said "you do not get it".

I really liked climbing , it always focused everything into the now.
Everything about it was fun. The good friendships, bueatiful days on warm granite, even the smell of the rock, and as some one said , managing the risk. That was half the fun, setting up pro as you worked your way up. I never was that good or bold, never got up any big walls. but man we had some fun times.

So I think I did "get it"

Another person said " you have 2000 post's here so there must be something that draws you to this site', I have always loved climbing history and this place is the best around. Where else can you sit and listen to climbing ledgends telling old tales.

I liked Werner's one word response "Desire" well put. I had a ton of desire to climb at one time.

Ruppel mentioned the consruction supervisor thing and how I must have seen accidents in the field, actually in 35 years as a carpenter, doing concrete, and moving into supervision, the worst I have seen is a nailgun shot through fingers.

It is a dangerous world, and any of us could be dead tomorrow. Like Cosmic said " the main cause of death is life"

I am surprised that Steve House has not been mentioned more. I noticed today that he had that accident in 2010, I thought it was more recent. That was what sparked the thought for this thread. Wonder how he is doing?


Again , thanks for all your thoughts.

The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Feb 6, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
+1 Dean
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Feb 6, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
John wrote in the OP:
So many lives cut short. And so many terrible injuries.. with years of pain and rehab, and deaths.

Before I get to the main question, I'd like like to address the above supporting statement. I've known an awful lot of people, mostly climbers, who have died. My wife and I are often surprised at how many of them did not die climbing. At times I thought I might even post that list up just because it's so curious.

I have this whacked thesis: it is that climbers have short fuses and that they sense this liability in themselves and correspondingly feel a greater sense of urgency about living deeply.

To answer the thrust of your post: personally, because most of what I saw in life as a teenager was either stifling, boring or unattainable. So I have become a climber and it is what I am. Other than that, it's really hard to say. "Desire" was a good one, as Werner said.

I also liked what Munge said, which is that how might be a more practical question than why (by virtue of it being more personal). In part, understanding how was the reason I started that thread: "REWIND: Life Without Climbing". Sometimes how helps us to see who we are more clearly. Why eliciting the abstract and how asking after the more substantive.
abrams

Sport climber
Feb 7, 2013 - 12:11am PT
I see dead people




ok just kidding
really

MisterE

Social climber
Feb 7, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Funny how you post about climbing in the past tense - I "was" a climber.

Not all hear the calling, and then it becomes something that is just risky when the passion is not there - understandable. Especially when you lose people close to you.

However, if it is an imperative of your being your post makes no sense.

Your post title is an affront to the heart of the drive - "this climbing thing".

Like it is just a whim...

The "7 reasons" is stupid, I was not entertained.
john hansen

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2013 - 01:16am PT
Tarbuster wrote,

My wife and I are often surprised at how many of them did not die climbing,,

Confidence can do great things.

Once you lose that..

I was on a metal roof once, when it started to rain. I thought to myself, let's stand above this skylight just in case. And then,, I slipped.

Caught my self on the sky light. It would have been a 20 foot launch out and down in to the bed of my truck. Broken bones for sure.

Since then , I have not spent too much time on roof's.

With confidence, you can do great things. I have much confidence in what I do now, it is just another place besides climbing.

Mister E, or any one, I would still be interested in links to earlier discussions on this topic.

I climbed from about 78 to 88, never placed a piton or a friend. Never could afford friends, hardly knew they existed. Wedges, stoppers and hexes, a small isolated group of climbing buddie's having fun around the Tahoe area. Never much more than 5.9 never took a fall on lead.

Confidence. once you lose that..




Edit:I was writing this when E postedl. Mr E, I did not mean any disrespect with the "this climbing thing" I know it is no whim. You can die doing this stuff.

I have always enjoyed your's and Skip's post's. And yes , climbing is in my past, though I still like to hear the stories on ST.

I knew this post would draw some criticism, and I am OK with that.


hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:25am PT
in the context of mortal consequence, one summons proper application of precision.
it's inherently satisfying. but without yagottawanna, it's simply a predicament
Norwegian

Trad climber
Pollock Pines, California
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:37am PT
because you can't get a mountain pregnant
Messages 41 - 60 of total 77 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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