Vote to end the ban on gays in the Boy Scouts right now!

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Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 30, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
BSA is currently conducting a poll regarding a change in current policies. Call 972-580-2330 and vote to end the ban.

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
Sigh. Why join an organization that has been around for a very long time, that is known to not accept homosexual individuals?

It's their right to refuse people. They shouldn't be pressured into changing their ways, no matter how you feel about them.

Join another organization.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
"Join another organization"









The Girl Scouts.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Yeah forcing those Diners to serve folks was bad in the 60's too eh?
Chim-Chim

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Mr. Slippy Fist
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
*ba dum peeeeeshh*


But no, seriously. I'm not homophobic or anti gay, but I just can't see why would you want to join an organization that doesn't want you?

Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Wow, really?
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Wow, my opinion, really?


Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
I suspect many children who start the path don't have a clue about their sexual orientation.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
but I just can't see why would you want to join an organization that doesn't want you?

Too change it into a great experience for all.

Once it changes, and it will, then more folks will have the fantastic experience of Boy Scouts. Both sides will benefit.

So let's get this change done and buried in the past as soon as possible.
Chim-Chim

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Cripple Fight
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
The BSA is a horrible, horrible organization... at least in Utah. No self-respecting person would ever expose their kids to that bullsh#t.

Homoclimbtastic is a WAY better organization.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Yeah, they should also accept girls in the Boy Scouts. hehehe
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:12pm PT


Get rid of the boy scouts all together...


Girls scouts get a "PASS" for the future, and their COOKIES...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
I say that Scout leaders should take a leadership course through homoclimbtastic.
Not that they really deserve to have as much fun as it must be there.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
"It's their right to refuse people."

That's true...the SCOTUS confirmed this right, and they stuck to their policies.

Their recent announcement of a potential/likely reversal of this policy is clear evidence that they are reacting to the will & interests of their members, and the society of parents who are considering whether the BSA is the kind of organization they want their kids to be associated with.

Like so many other archaic socially conservative (aka retarded) practices that have existed in our country, this one appears destined for the dustbin of history. It's about time.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
I suspect many children who start the path don't have a clue about their sexual orientation.

Well, statistically, most people are straight (somewhere between 75% and 99%). So I suspect that someone who has not yet discovered their sexual orientation can still make a fairly good guess about it. Then again, if the 25% gay rate among males is true, the BSA is probably already 23% gay.

As to joining an organization that doesn't want you, everyone has the right to tell other people what they want. It's part of their freedom of speech. If someone wants to change the Buy Scouts of America to accept gays, that is there prerogative. Their reasons for this are their own and they have already decided that they want to be in an organization that doesn't want them.

Heck, it is part of our very political process to try to change the organization instead of leaving it. People don't leave the USA because the laws don't work like they want; they try to change it. Why can't the BSA be the same?

Dave
John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:21pm PT

darn busy signals...

must be a popular poll... or a shortage of lines

:-)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Then again, if the 25% gay rate among males is true, the BSA is probably already 23% gay.

There is a big difference between being gay and being a religitard with repressed homosexual tendencies. The BSA and Catholic Crutch attract the latter.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
I was a fishing counselor for the local boy scout troop here- which had young men of all colors in it. All got along great and were very easy to teach the art of fishing the tiny Sierra creeks and ponds. Never any BS of any sort that i was ever witness too, just good times in the woods passing on knowledge to them that was passed to me by my elders. Do i think it would matter if the "let" gays in? Not really..They have had many already im sure that they werent aware of. If they decide to "ban" them they will still likely have some they wont be aware of. meh---first world problem--meanwhile,, Israelis attacked some Russian made rocket launchers on the Lebanese Syria border blowing the crap out of em.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Good step. Hopefully that organization can evolve past the Spanish inquisitions moral code. Lol.

Although I agree that you can have whatever hate clubs that make you happy do long as you don't act on it...
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
It's a yes and no thing for me...

I think each troop should have it's own policies. Especially since many Churches run scout troops. I think a troop being forced to accept someone they naturally would not isn't a good thing either. I would hate to see a gay boy put in a place where people will try to "cure" him, not really accept him. It can become a very hostile environment, etc. which doesn't do anyone any favors. Policies do not change behavior...

Yet I think if there is a troop opened minded enough to handle such a child, it can work. Why the heck not... I just think it's important for a parent of a gay child to be careful what they ask from others, especially folks that are not willing. Forcing folks creates new levels of hostility that will not help anyone grow, evolve, etc. Now if a parent of a gay child will take it on themselves to create a troop that is good for their child, willing to go the extra mile and find other children that wouldn't mind it... Then I agree. Especially since the troop is designed for just that in the first place, isn't bending others who are not ready for such an evolution. :)



Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Neckerchiefs are gay.
mhay

climber
Reno, NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Why next, people of color may want to join? Or women? Sheesh! These nerve of these people!

Or worse, an out ATHEIST! Which apparently they still won't accept, even if they change their policy on out gays.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
I was a Boy Scout until I got into high school, seemed a bit gay after that. The one guy who stayed in and became a scout leader was almost certainly gay. My scout master lived down the street from us, I remember being home on leave and my dad telling me about how the scout master (a very stand up guy) got outed for having swing parties at his house. That was a way weird conversation with dad in 1979, like all good dads he was straight up square.

I did not have my son join the scouts, really don't think they offer anything I can not provide, and I do not like their policy regarding gays.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
on the one hand its an organizations right to have rules. On the other , gays have a right to be gay. I dont deny either of their choosing.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
When I was a kid, the local scout master's son got beat up after we found out he was forcing the younger kids in the hood to suck his dick in their trailer.

I think having openly gay members would be a huge improvement over the rampant repressed homosexuality they currently foster. But the BSA sucks, regardless.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
I realize a lot of folks here at the Taco had great experiences in the Boy Scouts.

The only Boy Scout troop in the small Idaho town I grew up in was Mormon.

The Mormom Church has an elaborate & careful plan for their boy scouts.

http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scouting-handbook-2012.pdf?lang=eng

Kids from many faiths, including my slightly Christian background, joined the local Mormon troop. Some did very well, but I didn't. Guess I just wasn't good at being in a para-military youth group. I really am not a "joiner" or an "organization man" to this day.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
That was the scariest thing I've read in a LONG TIME.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Vote to end the ban on anything anywhere anytime and this will be just peachy.
Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
let's just ban banning stuff.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 30, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Many LDS church wards have been disregarding BSA policy and including gay youths in scouting activities. Generally, Mormon leaders believe including “chaste gays” in scouting is positive.

LDS church is largest sponsor of the Boy Scouts in the U.S.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55718242-78/church-lds-scouts-units.html.csp
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jan 30, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
It's their right to refuse people.

It is? On what grounds? Too fat? Look too funny? Last name Obama?

I'm serious - I looked up thier rules and all it said was if your a certain age, can recite the pledge and know a square knot you're in. Which is total crap - its got to be a bowline. A bowline and the basic belay signals.

What bizarre kid organization asks them their sexual orientation anyway? Does the chess club do that? Little league? The Mickey Mouse Club? I thought it was only the Catholic Church that took an overt interest in a childs sexual orientation.

It is their right to refuse people huh. Yep its good to teach em young... you're either an insider or an outsider kid. No goddamn muslims either thank you very much.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Michelle posted:
I suspect many children who start the path don't have a clue about their sexual orientation.


...if the current genesis of early teens catalogue and classify themselves as gay or straight...they must be the first to do so!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
Donald they have been doing that for decades. They even make you do the pledge on your knees
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
You have humanity and goodness?

When did that happen? Congratulations!

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
FACT: private organizations, like the BSA, can and do legally have the right to refuse anyone, anyone, as a member, can refuse Jews, blacks, asians, gays, anyone

Make a club yourself right now, you can legally decide who can join.

There are rules that define club or organization for this legal interpretation

Remember Augusta National Golf Club where they play the Masters?

They have legally refused to admit women for 80 years, and just changed that policy a year ago.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
weird. they changed you say?

Let me guess..... huge numbers of people told them they were as#@&%es?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Donald - you are regressing. Go to your corner and sing kumbaya
Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Donald. a predator is a predator, regardless of organization. You sound kind of closet to me.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
This is a play for Obama stash- you know the kind that has caused multi-trillion dollar deficits.

Donald, you continually show yourself to be young, naive, immature, and quite ignorant.

You could not factually debate a high school kid on federal deficits.

Twice now on this page you tried real hard to take a shot at "liberals' and "obama"

you are sick, stupid, youngster who needs his ass kicked

in fact, you remind me a lot of Skipt, who got banned here for his arrogant ignorance

he IS your cousin, is he not? Just like you, dumb and dumber
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
hmmmm............ good sluething Donald. There is a clear link between gay boy scouting and the Bush deficit.


Good work. OK you can come back and join the group.
Trevbo

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
You 'mericans look so silly from up here in Canuckistan.

Check it out http://www.scouts.ca/ca/frequently-asked-questions

Are Homosexuals Allowed to Join Scouts Canada?

Scouts Canada does not discriminate for reasons of gender, culture, religious belief or sexual orientation.

(Also, girls have been allowed in scouts in Canada since '98.)
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
hey cheesehead - I'd watch it if I was you. They take their bigotry very seriously down there.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
If their caught buggering children


I got news for you (apart from the "they're" that is) Boy Scouts has been giving the Catholic Church a run for its money for some time now:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/04/15676325-new-lawsuit-claims-boy-scouts-failed-to-stop-pedophile-in-midwest?lite


Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
well hell, let's just end ALL organizations for children since it makes it easier to predate. oh, and schools. what a joke dude.

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Yes you got it Donald. Robert Pikton was one of our more famous troop leaders. Thanks for sending him up after training him in Texas
Rolfr

Social climber
North Vancouver BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
I'd rather have a gay scout leader then the Catholic priest who traditionally was a Boy Scout leader in Canada. I spent a couple weeks in Boy Scouts when I was younger, but my Spidey sense told me there was something wrong about that priest who liked to watch boys shower.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Thank-you lord for bringing DOnald to us. Us sinners might never know the error of our ways without his guiding light based on your everlasting immutable laws.. and infitesimal and narrow way .. smaller than camels and needles and such.. he left out that quantum mechanics shite.. funny god has sense of humor.

There is no way but the true way.. and error hath no fury like gods vengeance

thank-you for providing Jesus who taught that no man may enter the kingdom of god. FULL STOP

-


OK f*#k that..

Jesus was way freaking cool... he said there were only two rules

Love god (good stuff I suppose)

Love Others as yourself

Works for me.. well when I'm having a good day but I do try.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Ban the boy scouts before it comes to this:


Third Reich Kool-Aid




Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
For sure he's from Texas. I mean just look at the guy.

Oh - my mistake. Turns out he got his scout leader certification from Kentucky


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
ZBrown! Yep! We never had that particular salute taught to us, but we would have been quite excited to do something so cool.

Boy scous = paramilitary Christian youth.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary

Specific Examples:

The AUC (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia), Self-Defense Units of Colombia.
The Blackshirts of Fascist Italy
The Basij of Iran
The Fedayeen Saddam of Ba'athist Iraq
The Patriotic Guards of Communist Romania.
The Schutzstaffel (SS), Sturmabteilung (SA), and Hitlerjugend (HJ) of Nazi Germany
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
The Scout Oath

On my honor, I will do my best,

To do my duty to God, and my country,

and to obey the scout law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong;

Mentally awake, and morally straight.


on the other hand,


The Scout Law

A scout is

Trustworthy - Loyal - Helpful - Friendly

Courteous - Kind - Obedient - Cheerful

Thrifty - Brave - Clean - Reverent.


Where are the *'s?
Exceptions apply.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Who me a Bigot? A damn commie Canadian? aw shucks Donald thats mighty kind of you. I bet you don't extend such honors like that to foreigners much.

Here's the Kentucky BSA training fascility where Robert Pikton got his cert:



zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
Mr. ZzzzzzzzzzzBrown:
The typical baby boomer liberal from the sixties equating the BSA with Nazis. Maybe that's what will attract gay men who want to be around children.

Not at all Donald. I don't see any equation in the post. Just a warning.

You calling the Nazis queer?

The indoctrination into weird ideas is the issue here. Could have put of some photos of the kids at Jonestown.

Liberally speaking that is, baby. BTW, I boomed in 1946.

Trevbo

Trad climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:37pm PT


(Homer at Moe's bar, reminiscing on his trip with Bart to a steel mill to try and steer him straight.)

Homer: "...and the entire steel mill was gay."
Moe: "Where have you been Homer? The entire steel industry is gay!"

Classic Simpson's episode...
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
if the 25% gay rate among males is true,


It's not true. Most rigorous, academic estimates is around 3-5%.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:00am PT
^^

And this matters why?

Plus I'm pretty sure it's higher among republicans.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Why does it matter? I dunno. Because facts matter?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Donald, you need to realize that you are on the wrong side of nearly every social issue. What are you going to do when you get to the pearly gates and God is a pot smoking 60s styled liberal?

My advice? repent dude
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:04am PT
At last..... our nefarious Canadian scheme to infiltrate, demoralize and fruitun' up Boy Scouts of America is near complete. Today the BSA..

Tomorrow - the NRA!!!!!!!!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:04am PT
Why does it matter? I dunno. Because facts matter?

why are all dogs gay but only 4% humans?

I have my doubts when it comes to that 4%

unless perhaps you mean exclusively
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:07am PT
being gay happens but that does not mean being gay is normal from a biological scientific standpoint. It is unnatural, why is that hard to believe?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:07am PT
^^^^

Dogs
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:10am PT
fortunately Donald every cloud has a silver lining. Things may be a little grim now for you and your friends but not too far off in your future is renewal, resurgence and...........


once again it will be "Morning in America!"

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:14am PT
I wrote you a little tribute up there Donald.

No comment?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:23am PT
Still ignoring my tribute Donald?
Rolfr

Social climber
North Vancouver BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Bruce, what a great clip. One of my all time favorite movies! "The Producers"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:26am PT
This too shall pass.
Much sooner than you think.

Really? Do you have children Donald?
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:28am PT
Dogs are gay, ergo dudes are gay. Really? Even accepting the premise, which is extremely dubious, that's the argument you're making?

Seriously. I'm trying to understand your argument. It sounds a lot like this:

Dogs are (more or less) gay.
Humans are like dogs.
Therefore, humans are gay.

Is that what you're saying? That's idiotic.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:30am PT
Donald you ignore Christ.

Which apparently made no impression on you.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:31am PT
ouch. Well anyway I bet if you did they would be queer as a three dollar bill.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:37am PT
I am an agnostic.
Jesus Christ is one of the last figures in history I would choose to ignore.

Not only do you play the part of an idiot.

You are a Liar about stupid shit
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:37am PT
But did he ever try to marry your leg?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:40am PT
MS55401

Your the one who said

eing gay happens but that does not mean being gay is normal from a biological scientific standpoint. It is unnatural

Point 1. normal from a biologic stand point. ergo my reply DOGS

Point 2 It is unnatural... WTH does that mean? The only things that are unnatural are thing that have never happened in the history of the universe.. ie .. nature
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:40am PT
I think having openly gay members would be a huge improvement over the rampant repressed homosexuality they currently foster. But the BSA sucks, regardless.

Same could be said of ST...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:41am PT
Or maybe its you thats queer as a three dollar bill????????

Really donald -its never too late for therapy
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:42am PT
ahhh sh#t.. that was Q-Ball who said that.. ahh well
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:08am PT
Donald - I really wanted to prove to you that at least a few of us Canadians are properly aligned with principles of authoritarianism. Look at this. Our own BC Civil Liberties Association (thats like the ACLU or the Black Panthers or something to you) is so egalitarian it feels even our bigots need the freedom to practice their time honored values without harassment from pesky lawyers and so on.




BY DOUGLAS TODD, VANCOUVER SUN JANUARY 30, 2013 7:51 PM


The B.C. Civil Liberties Association is backing the right of a Christian university to create a law school while continuing to discriminate against gays and lesbians.

The president of the BCCLA has issued a strongly worded, six-page letter denouncing the Canadian Council of Law Deans for opposing Trinity Western University’s bid to open the country’s first private law school.

BCCLA president Lindsay Lyster accused the deans of the country’s secular law schools of wanting to “monopolize” legal education and keep “religiously-minded” people from becoming law students and lawyers.

However, a spokesman for Canada’s law deans responded that B.C.’s civil liberties association has “misunderstood” their goal.

Bill Flanagan, president of the CCLD, said in an interview Wednesday his organization is simply urging the evangelical Protestant university to stop banning homosexual relationships among students or faculty.

The highest-quality private Christian law schools in the United States, such as those at Fordham and Pepperdine universities, would “not in a thousand years discriminate against students and faculty on the basis of their sexual orientation,” Flanagan said.

“It’s just not true that we’re opposing a Christian law school. Our challenge to Trinity Western University is to reflect on whether it needs to discriminate against gays and lesbians in order to keep its religious nature.”

The CCLD distributed a letter in the fall that challenged TWU’s Bible-based “community covenant,” which the council says makes clear that “gay, lesbian or bisexual students may be subject to disciplinary measures including expulsion.”

In his letter to the Federation of Canadian Law Societies, which helps decide whether to approve new law schools, Flanagan wrote: “This is a matter of great concern for all members … Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation … fundamentally at odds with the core values of all Canadian law schools.”

The BCCLA president, however, accused the council of law deans of operating on the premise “that those who are religiously minded should be excluded from all legal education. That would, by extension, include all professors, students and eventually lawyers and judges who held to the religious views the CCLD says are repugnant.”

Even though the BCCLA has stood up for the rights of homosexuals in many cases, Lyster wrote that, in the case of TWU, it’s instead emphasizing the principle of religious freedom.

Lyster cited TWU’s earlier legal dispute with the B.C. College of Teachers, in which the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2001 that a religious school can exempt itself from human rights legislation forbidding discrimination against homosexuals.

Despite TWU’s ban on homosexual relationships and sex outside marriage, Lyster also defended the evangelical school’s approach to academic freedom — saying secular universities often impose restrictions on free thought, including in regards to religious perspectives.

For his part, Flanagan confirmed he is committed to the values of freedom of religion and respect for diversity. He added that his own law school, at Queen’s University, has admitted graduates from Trinity Western University.

The controversy over TWU’s proposed law school comes at the same time that the Christian university’s faculty — who are the lowest-paid among all of Canada’s 58 universities — is in conflict with the administration over a drive to start a union.

TWU philosophy professor Myron Penner, one of the pro-union faculty, said a law school could be “a very good thing” for the Langley university as long as administrators ensured it did not add to the school’s already “substantial debt.”

TWU faculty’s application to join the Christian Labour Association of Canada goes before the B.C. Labour Relations Board in mid-February.

dtodd@vancouversun.com


Note that the TWU's teachers even have the good grace to chose a good christian labor uh, "association" rather than some damn commie union.

See? we're really not all Marxist.

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:15am PT
LDS church is largest sponsor of the Boy Scouts in the U.S.

Also the largest contributor to anti-gay marriage campaigns.

Asshole f*#ks.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:45am PT
hey there say, all...


as to anastasia's quotes:

It's a yes and no thing for me...

I think each troop should have it's own policies. Especially since many Churches run scout troops. I think a troop being forced to accept someone they naturally would not isn't a good thing either. I would hate to see a gay boy put in a place where people will try to "cure" him, not really accept him. It can become a very hostile environment, etc. which doesn't do anyone any favors. Policies do not change behavior...

Yet I think if there is a troop opened minded enough to handle such a child, it can work. Why the heck not... I just think it's important for a parent of a gay child to be careful what they ask from others, especially folks that are not willing. Forcing folks creates new levels of hostility that will not help anyone grow, evolve, etc. Now if a parent of a gay child will take it on themselves to create a troop that is good for their child, willing to go the extra mile and find other children that wouldn't mind it... Then I agree. Especially since the troop is designed for just that in the first place, isn't bending others who are not ready for such an evolution. :)


i always just think of groups and organizations, the same as this, how she mentioned... personal take, on what you want to do with folks, that enjoy doing things where you have stuff in common:

so if you don't feel part of one group, just find another, where the comaraderie is...

but then, i tend to see things in a match-match type way...

when one thing does not match what we want to do, find another match that works... and there, you fourish...

to me, it is just 'groups' where you learn stuff...
so i never thought much more on it...


now:
it if was schools, etc, or such, refusing others that have a differet
preference on what they do, as to who the person is:

that is wrong as, schools, and public things, are for all...

groups just seem to be that... seperate 'things' to help folks do
stuff they like, in a familiar or easy to 'break from the homefront'
type place...


telling folks how to change and run a group, can get
the group into a whole public function, and then folks
may as well, just go to public camps and function, etc...
or as to whatever the club is...

i reckon that some folks need these groups, more than others...

me and my kids, we just did everything public...
no one was excluded, or felt excluded then, and folks
had open learning as to how the world is full of many
various kinds of folks, race, inner-feelings, religion/non religions,
polictical, etc...


NOTE:
the only groups we ran into were perhaps the dance group
that i had at the recreation hall, but then THAT was a group
open to the public, there too...


and it was 'labled for woman', see--it was for ladies, as, many of the ladies would have been feeling unable to learn to dance, if there were men there, and it would have been
unfair to force the ladies to do that...

men, had their own classes... but woman, whether some where gay or not,
were still comfortable with seeing each other learn to dance, than seeing men--more of a 'men make fun of woman' type thing...



i can see the whole thing from any views, sure makes someone
upset though, no matter which way changes go... :(
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:57am PT
Growing up my brother thought "missionary style" meant butt sex, because that's the only way missionaries could have sex.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:58am PT
Good post, Neebee...always pleasant to read your sober posts in the late hours.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:18am PT
I get the feeling neebee doesn't quite understand how pervasive this "group" is in Utar and Idaho... and Jennie is beyond brainwashed. Simply joining another group doesn't always work. When I was growing up I got demerits IN SCHOOL for sh#t my dad said during a Saturday soccer match. He was the coach and he said he was "pissed off" at our lackluster performance. The demerits were ridiculous, the fact that none of the other kids would talk to me was pretty intimidating for a 6 year old.

It is no wonder I turned to a life of drugs and loose women at age 8.

Any group with a large following of blind idiots will attract morally corrupt people who can hide in the shadows amongst the idiots and take advantage of the undeserved respect the organization has garnered. Add to that repressed homosexual desires/curiosities, and you are putting innocent children at great risk. I would MUCH rather have my kids spend time with my openly gay friends than a bunch of brainwashed Morons.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:29am PT
Donald, the DSM-5 is zeroing in on defining Border Collie Personality Disorder. It may prove beneficial.

Credit: G. Orwell



Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:39am PT
I get the feeling neebee doesn't quite understand how pervasive this "group" is in Utar and Idaho... and Jennie is beyond brainwashed.


Whatever you say, Wes...

Perhaps you should write a book delineating your tortured existence and who’s to blame. This is difficult to say without feeling harsh and judgmental, but here goes--self-pity is an extreme form of egocentrism, and usually a result of a very selfish perspective of the world. People who regularly engage in self-pity are miserable, and they tend to make others quite unhappy, too.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:43am PT
Self-pity? I pity you and the rest of the sheeple who follow that crazy magic underwear, inherit your own universe bullsh#t. Yeah, it sucked being an outcast from day 1, having the Moron guidance counselor tell me I didn't qualify for scholarships (despite my 3.9, perfect attendance, and maxing out every honors class the high school had to offer), and being turned down for jobs because I answered the "what do you plan on doing after high school" question with "college" rather than "go on a mission." But whatever, I worked for what I have and I'm not tied down to a fat bitch and 8 kids.

I was never personally molested, but I have 5 good friends who were sexually abused by "trusted" religitards... including a scout master and a bishop.

Scratch that, I don't pity you... I pity your children.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:48am PT
hey there, say, jennie... thanks... i of course used anastasia, as the spring board, as it seemed similar to what i had 'thought' all these years..


say, as to wes (oops, this is an edit: got myself seeing
dermatitis, instead of demerits--i reckon i NEED a demerit now
for not reading closer as to my brain-issues):

THIS is what i had said, before corrected:

oh my, well, dermatitis issue is not the same thing...
any 'memeber of any group' could be sick,or have skin issues, or any such thing,and you have a point there--GOOD parenting, or such, or even 'general health issues' in boy's or sport's groups, sure did not
seem to have surfaced back then, :(

EDIT:
not meaning your dad, of course, meaning that good parnts should help teach kids that dermatitis issues are just that, and not to tease or fear it...

thanks for sharing...

note:
yeah, too, really do not know the 'business, big bucks' etc aspect of the
larger statewide type groups...

but i still think of the same thoughts as i mentioned in the other post..


hard stuff, though, i know,as to the whole thing...


edit again:
wow, wes... unfair demerits, bad call, :O

:(
another way that school can go wrong, :(
if no one helps...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:51am PT
demerits, not dermatitis... I got in trouble AT SCHOOL for my dad "cursing" at a completely unrelated event.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:51am PT
crazy magic underwear, inherit your own universe bullsh#t.

…it’s difficult to take misinformed cranks seriously. The LDS church never represented temple garments as “magic”…and “inheriting your own universe or planet” was never church doctrine.

But, obviously, without these prevarications... you would manufacture others…
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:58am PT
So, you are claiming the writings of Joseph Smith do not qualify as Moron doctrine? Of course... that makes perfect sense... behold the power of the "revelation" clause!






The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

Don't get me wrong, I know people who entertain even wilder fantasies... with magical rings and sh#t... but then, they don't get tax exempt status and molest little kids under the guise of a wholesome religious organization.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:04am PT
The “inherit your own planet/ unuiverse” tenet came from Orson Pratt, an astronomy lecturer...not Joseph Smith It was never accepted as church doctrine. A few liked the idea…most members ignored it. Brigham young called Pratt “an infidel at heart” and recommended his book be destroyed.

Your quote is from Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation...not Joseph Smith and was never canonized as doctrine by church councils.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:09am PT
Jennie, you are an idiot. You put planet in quotes in an underhanded way to blame me for your religion's ridiculous bullsh#t. I never ONCE said Morons believe they inherit their own planets.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:12am PT
Planets, solar systems, galaxies or universes...there is no LDS doctrine or canon that promises any of these systems or structures, Wes...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:15am PT
hey there, say, wes.... lol, ohhhhhh my.... i NEED a demerit for that one, :O


i have 'mix up' troubles, with words, so i have to be very careful and retype a lot..

so, if see a word, that my 'brain' thinks it is... whewwwwwwww, it jumps the ol' track to fast...


most always i am very careful, but i sure missed the ol' target here, :O


will leave it, but with an 'edit' that i have now 'been corrected' and am
not posting 'fly by night stories' gone haywire, :)


thanks.... :)

say, one demerit for me, erased, now, i hope, :)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:19am PT
Jennie, there is no official Moron canon that says bishops can molest little kids, but an alarming number of them still believe they can. I don't give a flying fuk what you idiots, sorry your leaders, decide to canonize. It is all a load of horse sh#t and does more harm than good.

Go ahead and believe that crap, I don't care, but don't allow the sick fuks that hide behind the veil to get a free pass just because they believe the same bullsh#t.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Oh, now you're going to play the "Bishop molesting children" card.

I see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:22am PT
And you are going to pretend it didn't/doesn't happen... no bishop could ever do that... good sheep, your flock is proud...

which is exactly the problem.


Have you ever had a serious conversation with someone, a close friend or family member, who had been molested by a trusted religious leader... a pillar of the community? Do you have any idea what it is like for that individual, that KID, when the entire community takes the side of the sex offender, just because he shares the same absurd beliefs and occupies a position of authority within a delusional group of idiots?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:26am PT
And you are going to pretend it didn't happen

What didn't happen? Your unamed friend who you claim was molested?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:27am PT
Exactly. You can ask Jesus, he'll tell you. Ask him serious now, no fibbing.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:31am PT
I say, "why didn't he go to the police"?

And you say "Oh, but jennie, you delusional idiot, what Mormon policeman would arrest a Mormon Bishop"?

After reading your posts for six years...I'm afraid you're quite predictable, Wes
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:37am PT
I don't know a lot of seven year old's who would go to the police when their bishop threatens to "hurt them real bad" if they tell anyone. And if the bishop happens to be the child's father...

Oh come on now, let me hear you blame it on the fact that it was the father and ignore the part about him being a Moron bishop...

ANYONE outside the church would be considered guilty with a mere accusation. But when it involves a church leader in Utah, the burden of proof is on the 7 year old victim. Nice, your Jesus would be proud of you for turning the other cheek.


The sad thing is, you just can't admit it. If someone told me "a geologist" or "a professor" or "a climber" or "a cop" or "a damn near anything" molested a little boy, I would think... "damn, that sucks, I hope they busted that fukhead." But if someone tells a Moron that a bishop molested a kid... it just can't be true... they must be lying...

pathetic
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:49am PT
You're generalizing...as if this is a common occurance...and hoping those outside domains will wonder if it indeed is...

It's not.

Yes, any molester should be brought down...but I'm not going to accede to this being common occurance.

the glue that holds the community together breaks down when malignant sins against the innocent happen. You're ridiculous suggesting that the Mormon community will allow a wayward leader to victimize a child and do the things the church profess are wrong.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:56am PT
You are ridiculous suggesting that a portion of the Moron community YOU HAVE NEVER EVEN MET is any better than the folks who covered for Sandusky at Penn State or those in the Catholic Crutch who covered for the thousands of accused priests... just because they share your silly beliefs.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:01am PT
Oh, now i'm suggesting Mormons are better?

Yes, play the arrogance and ethnocentrism card....
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:07am PT
And where were you when this offense occured? Did you attempt to access justice?

You want me to admit that some unsubstantiated crime you pull out of your hat on ST...indeed happened... yet you say nothing about what you attempted to remedy your friend's predicament.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Where did I say it was a common occurrence? I said I know 5 people who were molested... that's a pretty small percentage of the people I know.

What I said is that you are a pathetic fool for immediately questioning the validity of my claim based on the fact that the offenders happened to share your same religious delusions.

You want me to admit that some unsubstantiated crime you pull out of your hat on ST...indeed happened... yet nothing about what you attempted to do to remedy your friend's predicament.

Do you realize how idiotic Penn State fans looked when they said basically the same thing in the light of the accusations against Sandusky? I don't want or need you to admit anything "indeed happened."

What I want, and the children of your community need, is for idiots like you to pull their heads out of their asses and accept the fact that the religious (or sports) titles you put on people DON'T MEAN SH#T. Many sexual predators seek out EXACTLY THOSE POSITIONS of authority and trust.

You don't have to admit it to me, but you should admit to yourself... if I had said it was a professor or a teacher or a coach who molested my friend, you wouldn't have thought twice about whether or not it was true.



Which brings us full circle... any openly gay person in the BS or the Moron church would be an easy target. Any accusation from a homophobic redneck fuknard would be take way more seriously against an openly gay individual than a bishop with repressed homosexual desires/curiosities.
Michelle

Social climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 05:04am PT
ok then..

I'm sorry for your experiences wes. I agree with you that the predators seek out positions of authority. However, the issue isn't strictly an LDS matter. Sure, it's creepy. it's creepy NO MATTER who does it. singling out a group you don't agree with is a demonstration of a lack of tolerance.

I won't debate the religious issue. not worth my time, but have at it.


don't make me delete this thread dammit
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:46am PT
No, but mormons have a long history of molesting children - they just call them 'wives' and then all is well.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:54am PT
but mormons have a long history of molesting children


Please substantiate...
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:10am PT
The Boy Scouts reek of fascism and the goose step.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
healyje, Jennie is right. Marrying 14 year olds is not official church doctrine. Sure, they did it in the past and even their founder married 14 year old girls. But they haven't "officially" done it since the mid-19th century, so it doesn't really count.

That's another great thing about being a Moron... not only do they get to hide behind a shield of unwarranted, self-perceived righteousness, they also get to change their official stance on pretty much anything they want. All it takes is for the right MAN to have a psychotic episode... I mean revelation. And voila! Those who still believe what they used to preach are now outcast as Fundamentalist LDS, and the sheeple who believe the new line of bullshit are the official LDS.

Like when Allan Watts had his rap bolting revelation. Sure, people still use widgets and spring loaded spam catchers, but they are "traditional climbers"... not "climbers."
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
jeezus... What a bunch pf stereo typing we have here. My kids were just kids having a good damm time in the out of doors learning. No goose stepping,, no nazi like actions what so ever..The dug the fishing, the catch and the release. Or the fryers on the pan over the camp fire.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
Ron, did they swear oaths to God and country several times a day?
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:05pm PT


Do "Scout masters" have to have children in the scouts at the same time they are being "Scout master(baters)", or can they take that position even if they don't have a kid of theirs in the organization???...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
I'm pretty sure there is no such requirement to be a scout master. You just need approval from the proper (religious) authorities. The 2 weeks I was in scouts we had a woman as a scout master. She never fondled me.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Wes,, no there were no repeated oaths or any of the like. Just a bunch of good kids learning to play in the out of doors. Hungry to learn about fish, fishing, and fish eating! They also got an intro into some easy bouldering.
I got to take them into little valley a few times- to fish the brookies and occasional golden.. They lovd learning how to prepare and cook fish on a camp fire. They learned about trees and other flora as well as fauna..
Not one instance of zealousness over oaths or any of the like.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Then it weren't BSA. It was you talking a group of kids fishing, etc. My dad and the patrons of his bar did the exact same thing for us. We always had a blast.

Check the proto-ARMY adds... THAT is the BSA.
http://www.scouting.org/Youth.aspx

They gots oaths and sh#t you MUST recite ad nausea to get "promoted."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
healyje, Jennie is right. Marrying 14 year olds is not official church doctrine. Sure, they did it in the past and even their founder married 14 year old girls. But they haven't "officially" done it since the mid-19th century, so it doesn't really count.

Yeah, they bumped it up to 15 - still a child.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Bill is an Eagle Scout, a 100% Jewish Boy and his troop was run by the Local Baptist Church. Bill loved it, got into climbing, sailing, archery, and fly fishing because of the Scouts. He never felt out of place because he wasn't part of the Church. They hosted it, but that was it, the rest was pure scout stuff and he has many fond memories of the fun, the pranks, and the adventures of his troops.


Also my best friend is a Biochemistry Professor, an Atheist, and an Eagle Scout. He still regularly volunteers for the Scouts. His favorite part is the pranks. He never had a problem with his point of view being interfered by the scouts, he goes with the flow, enjoys helping kids experience new things, etc.

It is what you make of it.

Yes, some troops are a bit insane. A troop could be run by and ex Navy Seal, or some end of the world survivalist, or a religious nut. Each troop is different and that's why it's important to "know" the troop your kid is joining. People need to be picky but overall, Boy Scouts as a bad thing... Yeah, I really don't think so...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Anastasia,, you ROCK....;-)
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Why is this important? If I had a gay child I wouldnt want them joining, hell I wouldn't want my straight kid joining.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:19pm PT

^^^

+1

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Any self respecting gay kid wouldn't be caught dead in public wearing THAT uniform !
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Anastasia, those were not BSA in Utah or Idaho. Hell, even the Morons outside of Utah/Idaho are generally cooler people... although still a bit smug and self-righteous about their beliefs... as if believing even crazier sh#t about the god of abraham is some kind of achievement to be proud of.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
why do i think wes got booted from the scouts?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Some kids flourish in the Scouts. My very first climbing partners had all been scouts in Ventura.. They were the most fun, wild, crazy adventure awesome folks I have ever had the pleasure of backpacking, climbing, and getting thrown in the river by... Yes, they did that... I was taking too long to wake up. It was hilarious and it did work.

It was because of them I've gone deep into the Sespe. Because of them I learned how to backpack correctly, use a map and compass, hiked part of the John Muir Trail, got into my first natural hot tubs, saw my first Indian painted cave, explored an old mine, etc.

They met each other through the scouts, one of them took an interest in me and I ended up learning so much while he Romanced me... Even when he gave up they still took me out and I am deeply grateful for them. I would not have even been in this adventure world without them, none of you would have known me, etc.

Plus, the Scouts help my husband become who he is. My best friend, etc. My life is better because of them so yeah, what is not to like? Now will I "force" Aris to be a scout? No way, but if he likes it, I'm game. Again, scouts is not for everyone but when it works, why the heck not?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Never got booted you moron, I quit going. Had a much better time hiking and skating with friends than I ever would hanging out with those d#@&%e bags.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
the scouts seems like a terrible place to meet girls.
Psilocyborg

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
Yeah I agree with you too mechrist....mormons and thier silly beliefs, we should gather them all up in one place so we can keep an eye on them. Jews too....their beliefs are just sooooooo annoying! Always with the molesting of kids! Its just like blacks always eating watermelons!

Stupid f*#king hindus too with thier dumb elephants lets add them to mechrists concentration camp! Who else...oh of course...christians!

I agree with you mechrist I hate them all and they should die
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
I was always into wilderness adventures and like some here a Boy Scout.
Troop 13, Riverside, Ca. in the early 70's was fortunate to have a scoutmaster (Mr. Brophy) that placed more importance in trips to the wilderness than wearing uniforms and earning merit badges.

Every summer
for 5 years our troop would take 10 day backpacking trips into the Sierras
each time hitting a different area. Other trips included Grand Canyon, a Colorado River canoe trip, Death Valley, Panamint Mountains, exploring old
mines in the SoCal desert, Joshua Tree, San Jacinto, San Gorgonio and San
Gabriel Wildernesses. I never made Eagle Scout, Life Scout was the highest
rank I achieved but more important was the time spent and skills learned
in the wilderness.

I had a great time in the Boy Scouts

Tad
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
way to write between the lines sillycyborg.
Psilocyborg

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
You dripping with a hatred for mormons, mechrist. It is ok because you aren't hating on blacks or jews? I don't see a difference.

Mormons aren't your problem, its as#@&%es that treated you poorly when you were young, child molesters, ect and I think black white jew christians muslims athiests can all agree on that one
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
You really don't see the difference between disliking members of a group that pride themselves on their absurd believes (Morons), and disliking people based on ethnicity (blacks and Jews)?

I've never been approached by a black person or a Jewish person who tried to convince me to become one of them or share their wackass beliefs. As far as I know, you don't have to pay 10% of your income to some organization in order to be considered a good black person and send forth 19 year olds with the title "Elder" to spread Blackism to all corners of the world. You can ALWAYS choose to stop being a Moron, you can NEVER stop being black or Jewish.

I've said it over and over and over... Mormons outside of Utah and Idaho are a hell of a lot cooler (on average) than those behind the Zion curtain. Many of them even agree the Morons in Utah/Idaho are fuked in the head.

That being said, I still hold quite a few SLC climbers in very high regard... who happen to be Mormon. I think their beliefs are silly, I think a lot of people's thoughts are silly, but that doesn't change the fact that they are top notch people. I know about 5 cool Mormons, out of the hundreds of Morons I've dealt with... that includes my brother and mom.
Psilocyborg

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
You are just splitting hairs in definitions. Words are just words brother, but your negativity spirals outward.

Take the high road, you don't have to feed back the baddies, otherwise you ARE them, one and the same. Hate will never conquer love, but love can snuff out hate.....and easily I might add. Where are you in this balancing act?

In a thread about accepting gays, no less. Oh the irony.

I am just hoping to spread a little light to where I see some darkness my friend...peace and love to you
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
When friends ask me to buy popcorn, etc., to support their kid in the scouts... I just say No.

And I tell them why.

Vote with your money. Don't give it to the BSA.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 31, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
You really don't see the difference between disliking members of a group that pride themselves on their absurd believes (Morons), and disliking people based on ethnicity (blacks and Jews)?

If you hate (or just judge) a single individual because of the group to which they belong, you are prejudice. You have judged them before you actually know them. There is absolutely no difference just because the group is made common by their color or religion.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
The Post Register, a daily newspaper in Idaho Fall Idaho had a long fight exposing sexual abuse of local Boy Scouts.

http://www.postregister.com/scouts_honor/index.php


"Scouts' Honor" tells the story that the Boy Scouts did not want you to read: How the Grand Teton Council leaders ignored multiple warnings and hired a pedophile to help lead a summer camp.

This series relies on public documents that two of Idaho's most powerful law firms tried to bury -- more than 1,000 pages, including sworn statements that spell out how the molester depended on church, family and Scout connections to get away with abusing at least two dozen boys from Idaho to Alaska.



Sick of being preyed on, a 14-year-old Scout forced Scout leaders to call police.
At least one Grand Teton Council board officer knew Brad Stowell had a problem.
Experts disagree, widely, whether it was certain that Stowell would strike again.
After the molester was caught, what did Grand Teton Council leaders decide to change?
Where are the key Scout officials and other players today?

What should you do if you think you, your child or a friend was in harm's way?


March 11, 2005

Secret Boy Scout case opened

Leaders: Telling parents about molester would 'open old wounds'

April 6, 2005

Stowell faces probation hearing

Former Boy Scouts leader allegedly violated his probation for interacting with children and viewing pornography

April 26, 2005

Stowell sentenced to prison

Man who admitted molesting boys gets 2 to 14 years for probation violation

May 05, 2005

Scouts whistleblower honored

Police and sheriff's office recognize Adam Steed for his service to the community

July 13, 2005

Scout case 'not found'

Court records show fourth pedophile led several Boy Scouts outings

March 14, 2006

Abuse bill now law

As of Monday, Idaho no longer has a statute of limitations on child sex abuse


July 03, 2005

MORE PEDOPHILE CASES EMERGE WITH SCOUT CAMP CONNECTIONS

PEDOPHILES AT SCOUT CAMP


March 6, 2005

A true story of a Scout in action

Denying the obvious

March 11, 2005

A hypocrite plays his games

March 13, 2005

The judgment

May 01, 2005

Seven years later

July 14, 2005

And then there were four


March 6, 2005

A Boy Scout to the end -- Mary Beckman

March 9, 2005

Scouts Honor was a disservice -- Mary Haley

March 10, 2005

When warnings go unheeded -- Richard Scarborough
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
There is absolutely no difference just because the group is made common by their color or religion.

Sure there is. You choose your religion, you don't choose your color. They can change their silly beliefs anytime they want... and they do quite often.

Prejudice is a preconceived judgement formed without knowledge. I have more than enough knowledge and experience with thousands of Morons to make an informed judgement about their group. Furthermore, the groups a person CHOOSES to belong to is a direct reflection on that person. So, by extension, I feel fairly comfortable judging the majority of group members based on their CHOSEN affiliation with a group.

That said, I don't give a flying fuk if anyone believes in magic seer stones, golden plates, or magic underwear, as long as it doesn't taint their perspective too much and they don't try to sell me any of it. My brother is a Mormon, wears the funny undies, got married in the temple, goes to crutch every Sun, does his ward duties, the whole deal... and he is one of the coolest people I know. I love hanging out with him and his brainwashed kids.

When a prominent geochemist was accused of child porn in 2001(?) my reaction was "what a fukhead." I never once questioned the validity of the claims because we happened to share a love of Gibbs free energy.


Experts disagree, widely, whether it was certain that Stowell would strike again.

Exactly. It wasn't "certain" if he would strike again... and he's such a good Moron boy. Same sh#t as Penn State letting Sandusky's summer camps continue, despite being banned from bringing boys onto the main campus.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 31, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
You can ALWAYS choose to stop being a Moron, you can NEVER stop being black or Jewish.

True if you're black, untrue if you're Jewish. Untold thousands of them did, throughout history.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
You are confusing the religion of Judaism with Jewish ethnicity. A common mistake.

I reserve the right to dis any and all silly Judaic bullshit people choose to believe in. At the same time, I love my gf's latkes and only make fun of her Jew nose when she deserves it. See the difference yet?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
You are confusing the religion of Judaism with Jewish ethnicity. A common mistake.

I reserve the right to dis any and all silly Judaic bullshit people choose to believe in. At the same time, I love my gf's latkes and only make fun of her Jew nose when she deserves it. See the difference yet?

Well I suppose the Mormons in Salt Lake (at least the ones descended from the original Mormon settlers) have a Mormon "ethnicity" that is just as real as Jewish ethnicity.

But I don't know about this "ethnicity" stuff--yeah Hitler believed there was something to it, but we don't have to agree with him. Seems to me that jews (at least of the Ashkenazi variety) are just white people with (sometimes) big noses, unless they (or a Hitler type) choose to make it into something more. Lots of Jews do of course, but lots don't. For them, forcing an "ethnicity" onto them seems to make about as much sense as forcing any other gringo to make some (artificial) connection with whatever particular patch of Europe his ancestors happened to wander around on before they got on the boat.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
Philip K. Dick
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 1, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
you are an idiot
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Feb 3, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
mechrist writes:
you are an idiot

Wes,

You're trying to bring the juvenile arrogance of RC.com here.

It will play better there.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 3, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Lets make it easier for them. Much like the Catholic hierarchy did for the priests.

If their caught buggering children we can just transfer them to the other end of the country, or perhaps to a third world country.

This, plus some other posts, lay out the problem.

Ignorant people who have no training nor expertise, use a "common sense"
approach to dealing with child sexual predators.

The Boy Scouts have done this, the Catholic church, as well.

They take the position that an adult molests a young boy. Obviously, the boys need to be protected from homosexuals.

Only one problem.....

Those who molest boy are NOT homosexuals, they are pedophiles. Different breed of human. In fact, virtually all molesters of boys lead a heterosexual lifestyle.

So, when you wonder why the long program to purge gays has not resulted in less molestation.......they're purging the wrong people.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Those who molest boy are NOT homosexuals, they are pedophiles. Different breed of human. In fact, virtually all molesters of boys lead a heterosexual lifestyle...

... usually with aggressively suppressed homosexual desires/curiosities, otherwise the victimization of little girls by trusted religious officials would be equally prevalent.

The following was conducted at BYU. But as Jennie will vehemently point out, it is NOT part of church doctrine. Besides, it was soo long ago... nothing like that occurs today... that would be horrible publicity.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 3, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Those who molest boy are NOT homosexuals, they are pedophiles. Different breed of human. In fact, virtually all molesters of boys lead a heterosexual lifestyle.


Most child molesters don't really have any adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Jennie, in case you missed it...

Those who molest boy are NOT homosexuals, they are pedophiles.

Offenders are classified as fixated or regressed. What do you think might lead to those psychological disorders?

BYU honor code: "Homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates the Honor Code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings."

During the 70s, the psychology department at Brigham Young University experimented with electroshock aversion therapy in an attempt to cure homesexuality. Patients who went through BYU's program were shown erotic pictures of people of the same sex. When the counselors monitoring the patient sensed he or she was getting aroused, an electrical shock would be delivered to the patient.

http://suite101.com/article/byu-electroshock-aversion-therapy-a33025

But, hey, yeah, BYU "accepts" people of all sexual orientation... wouldn't want to miss out on that 10% or get any discrimination lawsuits filed against them...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Jennie, since you live deep within your own little hole of denial regarding the actions of your religious leaders...

Twice a week for six months, he jolted himself with painful shocks to the penis to rid himself of his attraction to men.

"As teens we were taught that homosexuality was second only to murder in the eyes of God," he said.

Oh, right, that isn't "official" LSD doctrine... so it doesn't count... never happened... just turn the other cheek...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I said nothing about your link, Wes...

But you're quite nebulous about what is church DOCTRINE

Because a Mormon psychologist opts to experiment with behavior modification on volunteers...doesn't validate any of his opinions as church doctrine...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
A Moron psychologist... at BYU... THE Moron university that has such tight control over their sheeple that they will expel you for having sideburns... opts to SHOCK PARTICIPANTS' PENISES TO PUNISH THEM FOR HOMOSEXUAL AROUSAL... does not make it official church doctrine... it simply makes the Moron leadership and the stupid sheeple who follow ignorant fuknards.

d'Nile
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
BYU did not pioneer the use of aversion therapy as a treatment for homosexuality and it ceased use of the therapy decades before the American Psychological Association stopped recommending the practice. BYU was one of many places where research in this area was done.

One of the alleged participants in this sensationalized ABC story admitted he was never part of the aversion therapy study at BYU.


http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_gender_issues/Same-sex_attraction/Aversion_therapy_performed_at_BYU
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
I thought the guy was shocking only his own penis

and it was not church doctrine

hard to believe the Mormon church would advocate penis shocking
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
OMG, you are right. That must mean my 5 friends who were sexual abused by trusted religious leaders were lying. I understand now, the BYU penis shocking was just a phase... they grew out of it... besides, everyone was doing it. Everyone, as in a few other religious fukheads.


The Moron church "advocates" a lot of crazy sh#t that is not official church doctrine for obvious tax exemption and public perception reasons.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Those who molest boy are NOT homosexuals, they are pedophiles.

I thought they were called "priests," not pedophiles.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Wes,

I thought ONE GUY said he shocked his dick to supposedly stop them homo thoughts.

How did this get to more than one guy, who else was doing this?

and when did this ever become any kind of church "doctrine"?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 3, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
hard to believe the Mormon church would advocate penis shocking

The LDS church didn't advocate this, Norton. The link I offered might confer a little more clarity to the study and its context in aversion therapy experiments common in that era, and carried out by many research institutions.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 3, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Yes, Jennie's link should clarify everything...

"Defending Mormonism..."

Anyway, point is, the Moron church is a very accepting organization that in no way aims to suppress the desires of its homosexual members... producing nothing but wholesome men with no repressed sexual desires that may manifest in the Moron dominated BSA.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/boy-scouts-release-perversion-files-article-1.1186343
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 4, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Anyway, point is, the Moron church is a very accepting organization that in no way aims to suppress the desires of its homosexual members... producing nothing but wholesome men with no repressed sexual desires that may manifest in the Moron dominated BSA.



The LDS Church doesn't dominate the Boy Scouts of America.

Boy Scout total membership is 3,770,907 of which 420,977 are sposored by the LDS which figues at 11% of the total BSA membership.

The LDS Church is the largest individual sponsor...but there are many other sponsors; churches, civic and citizen groups, PTA, private schools etc.

The LDS sponsor 7% of the Boy Scouts in Canada.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Jennie, I have no idea who you are but it's clear that whenever the words "Mormon" appear on ST, you always contribute.

Nationally, Mormons do not dominate the BSA. BUT, if you are live in California (especially Sacramento) or Utah or Arizona the Mormon Church heavily dominates.

There is NO way you can argue that the Mormon church doesn't heavily influence BSA policy. Impossible.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
I didn't claim the LDS have no influence. I said they don't dominate... in answer to Wes' suggestion



Nationally, Mormons do not dominate the BSA. BUT, if you are live in California (especially Sacramento) or Utah or Arizona the Mormon Church heavily dominates.

There is NO way you can argue that the Mormon church doesn't heavily influence BSA policy. Impossible.


The LDS population in California is less than 2%, Port. In Sacremento it's 3%. The Roman Catholic population outnumbers the LDS by more than five times in that city.

Perhaps you can educate me on how, with those small percentiles relative to the other Christian faiths who charter Boy Scout troops...not to mention units sponsored by civiuc and school groups...how the LDS have come to dominate the BSA in the Sacremento area.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
usually with aggressively suppressed homosexual desires/curiosities, otherwise the victimization of little girls by trusted religious officials would be equally prevalent.


Unfortunately, research does not bear you out. When actual pedophiles have been tested, they are not aroused by males....or females. They are aroused by CHILDREN.

And virtually all of them live a heterosexual lifestyle.

So you are in the group that is for going after the people who have nothing to do with the problem.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Next thing you know we'll let gays in the military!!! Oh wait...

On a serious note, the problem isn't gay scouts, but gay scout leaders. It's a recipe for abuse and pedophilia.

I don't trust most straight men with my kid on a camping trip. You want me to send him camping with a gay scout leader? Call me a homophobe, or whatever. It's common f*#king sense.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Gay scoutmasters are not the problem either. Criminally minded predators are the problem.

Everyone has their sexual preferences. Does not make everyone a criminal. Except in some religious states.

The main thing that anyone who takes care of other peoples children should be careful about is avoiding being alone with a child if it can be helped. This protects The adults and the children. Has nothing to do with intentions it has to do with avoiding any appearance of any possible impropriety. It is smart policy even if it does cause some sadly necessary inconveniences.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 4, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Gay scoutmasters are not the problem either. Criminally minded predators are the problem.


No, not all of them. But that's why they have the rules. To eliminate the possibility.

More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 4, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
"No, not all of them. But that's why they have the rules. To eliminate the possibility."

True...

To become an Eagle Scout, you must have at least 20 nights of camping. Kids are harder to watch on campouts, lots of things can happen...they're in their tents, or off on their own. That's why it's more complicated to have gay scouts or leaders. I think the BSA's current policy is similar to the same reason girl scouts don't join the boys on these campouts.
Anastasia

climber
Home
Feb 4, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
I totally agree. I have a few friends that are gay. Not even remotely worried about them being around my son. Then there are others. I have seen and met predators at the playgrounds and near the schools. We even had called the cops on one that was trying to interact with my niece and found out he had previous convictions, wasn't suppose to be even near a park, etc. The guy was seventeen years old with several convictions of child abuse with girls below the age of five. (Think on that.)

Long story short... You feel something is off with a person female or male or the babysitter isn't feeling like a solid choice to watch your kid... Trust those instincts. Missing a date/concert isn't a bad thing compared to living with the after effects of abuse, or the worst the death of your child.

I follow those instincts with teachers, doctors, scout masters, priest, relatives, etc. I have a story about that too. I hated my math teacher, demanded a transfer. Felt like he was greasy... Two years later, they caught him demanding sex for grades from a few 14 year old female students. He never did that to me but... I remember feeling wrong. (Strange that I was so right.)

AFS

damo62

Social climber
Brisbane
Feb 4, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
That's common f*#king NONsense Bluey, You are a homophobe!
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
As a former Scout myself, and father of a Life Scout, the concern I have is of gay Scoutmasters being Boy-Buggerers! No parent worth his or her salt will willingly send a child off to camp to be molested. Most youngsters haven't yet a clue about their own sexual orientations at the age in which Scouting begins. So...no...I will not vote for "allowing gays to be in scouts." It really isn't about the boys, is it?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
WOW... just.. really?

Was it this hard with slavery too?

In a way it's morbidly fascinating to see this historical process live.

You know the process whereby society goes from accepting evil as a necessity or even a virtue..

Too where even the racist KKK wouldn't do it. And it becomes a Felony


Same sh#t with Homosexuality.

Same day different century.. nothing new to see here.
SicMic

climber
two miles from Eldorado
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Sorry to return to topic, but it's like Norton said a few pages ago. As a private org, the BSA can choose who to include within their ranks. This may be another instance where public opinion changes the status quo. While I would argue that public opinion is often right, I should point out that it is sometimes wrong.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
A private entity has no right to harmfully exclude people based on idiocy.

Try excluding any particular person with a specific skin color from your restaurant sometime. Well you might get by with it a few times if you are sneaky how you do it but a good chance that eventually the law will get you as it should.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 4, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
So...Climbski2...are YOU a parent? The business of being PC pales into insignificance to parents. I'm hopeful that someday a grandson of mine will become a Scout, and I really wouldn't appreciate a sexual predator as a Scoutmaster. This is really an issue involving parents, and not the general public as a whole. So..if you and your butthole buddy want to bugger one another, have at. I really don't givva schitt.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 4, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Ken M, please don't confuse me with the homophobic dipshits here. I am absolutely NOT saying homosexuals molest children. Sorry if it came off that way.

I am saying people who have not developed a healthy sense of sexuality are more likely to molest children. I'm not sure how much you have dealt with Mormons, but they tend to have pretty twisted views on sexuality... especially homosexuality.

I am a firm believer that homosexuality is perfectly healthy, perfectly normal, and in no way predisposes anyone to child molestation. Religions that suppress natural sexual tendencies and retard sexual development are another story.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Has nothing to do with being PC. Anastasia nailed it in an above post. Predators exist of course and good parents don't fool themselves as to what one might look like or base their comfort on prejudice. Prejudice is blindness and blindness disables your ability to protect your children.

How dumb is your logic.. the boyscouts are safer because they ban gays? really..yeah that really protected all those kids from abuse.. cause I mean no predator would be a liar about it..

sickening discussion really on so many levels.

Oh and My butt buddies? I'll take that intended insult as an honor.. regardless what my preferences may be.

It's always an honor to be attacked standing up for what is right.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
The Boy Scouts of America is a traditional faith based organization. Most are of the Judeo-Christian faith and world view. The Holy Bible calls homosexuality a sin. It's wrong. Sin is a pleasure for a short season as the Good Book says. G-d has judged cities due to their immorality. Think Sodom and Gomorrah. Both taken out with meteor impacts. G-d does indeed throw stones as judgement.

You are argueing with Hashem Adonai Elohim, not man. We are just pointing out the Holy scripture where G-d condemns this sin.


We Are the Boy Scouts of America: The Importance of Faith
http://www.scouting.org/filestore/doc/faith.doc


This will destroy The Boy Scouts of America and will completely undermine its faith based origin.

But isn't that really the agenda of the Gay Pride movement? To force the sin in the face of everyone who doesnt agree with their sin? With seared conscience and absolute defiance and false pride in the face of G-d?

Good luck on that. Judgement comith from the Lord. I'm just gonna step aside and pray for you and our country. I'm not going to stand in the way of sinners. We aren't supposed to. But I will tell you the road is washed out ahead that you are hell bent on racing toward and ends in a big cliff. You're choice to keep driving toward it with a seared conscience.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Oh Klimmer I was a dead man the moment I was born.. I'm a sinner and have stopped pretending I could not be one a long time ago.

I do however try not to userb gods authority to judge my or anyone elses sins. But I'm sure I'm a hypocrit on that at times as well.

And how in the world does not allowing sinners in your church or organization constitute following Jesus'es example? That clearly is not biblical. Or for that matter even possible. Jesus even let Judas in his church. Assuming he knew what was gonna happen there it does seem to lend credence to the command to love your enemy.

That would be one hell of a small church now that I think about it... Like maybe one dead guy who is a ghost or something.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
climb2ski said

A private entity has no right to harmfully exclude people based on idiocy.

Try excluding any particular person with a specific skin color from your restaurant sometime. Well you might get by with it a few times if you are sneaky how you do it but a good chance that eventually the law will get you as it should.

you are confused factually, and therefore your conclusion is wrong

a restaurant, if a PUBLIC one, cannot by Federal law "exclude" race, creed, color, sex, or national origin

a PRIVATE restaurant CAN "exclude" ANYONE for ANY REASON, including your "idiocy"

get the difference? private versus public?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
I am saying people who have not developed a healthy sense of sexuality are more likely to molest children

I am saying people who have not developed a healthy sense of sexuality are more likely to molest children

I am saying people who have not developed a healthy sense of sexuality are more likely to molest children


I would have RuPaul babysit my nephew before I let Michelle Bachmanns wife, ANY DAY.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
No. Lol.. what is a private restaurant?

Has only one customer.. the owner(s)

SO unless the scouts only allow owners of the BSA to attend I don't see how they can consider themselves purely a private entity.

Regardless in the case of the BSA their policy is very morally wrong.

Like I said it is MORBIDLY interesting seeing the historical process of an accepted abomination become and unaccepted abomination.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
No. Lol.. what is a private restaurant?


really, LOL

you don't know the difference between private and public?

really? oh come on, no one is THAT stupid

are they?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
Come over I'll bake you a cake. Also might suck your dick.


that's private.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Sin is a pleasure for a short season as the Good Book says. G-d has judged cities due to their immorality. Think Sodom and Gomorrah. Both taken out with meteor impacts. G-d does indeed throw stones as judgement.

You are argueing with Hashem Adonai Elohim, not manand you,

Klimmer, you are a 6th century dumbfuk to be an adult and believe that sh!t
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
really, LOL

you don't know the difference between private and public?

really? oh come on, no one is THAT stupid

are they?

Uhm yeah I really didn't know there were "private" restaurants that could get by with denying service for those reasons. I'm still highly dubious that your statement is factually true.

I did try to think of a legal way and the only way I could think of is if the restaurant only served owners. Yet I'm not even sure excluding ownership would be legal for those reasons.

I'm quite certain there are racist run restaurants.. I'd be shocked if there arn't a few that get by with it.

But then again slavery still exists too.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:29pm PT


ever heard of Augusta National Golf Club, where they play the Masters?

that is a PRIVATE club, the members OWN it and they decide who joins

they have dining rooms and restaurant in that PRIVATE club


they don't HAVE to let Jews, Blacks, Asian, Women, or even IDIOTS, or ANYONE eat there

get it yet? private versus public, think on it, take your time
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
That's it, Norton. Stab REAL hard with that finger, dig deep!

: /
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Feb 4, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Oh Klimmer I was a dead man the moment I was born.. I'm a sinner and have stopped pretending I could not be one a long time ago.

I do however try not to userb gods authority to judge my or anyone elses sins. But I'm sure I'm a hypocrit on that at times as well.

And how in the world does not allowing sinners in your church or organization constitute following Jesus'es example? That clearly is not biblical. Or for that matter even possible. Jesus even let Judas in his church. Assuming he knew what was gonna happen there it does seem to lend credence to the command to love your enemy.

That would be one hell of a small church now that I think about it... Like maybe one dead guy who is a ghost or something.


Climb2ski,

We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of G-d. That is why Yeshua HaMashiach came to Earth and willingly became the Lamb of G-d for the perfect atonement of our sins. He laid down his life for us, he loves us that much. All we have to do is accept it and be born again in the spirit of Adonai.

We all come in as sinners. Many of us have unspeakable backgrounds that we come from, but once we accept Hashem's grace through the perfect atoning blood of Yeshua, we are forgiven, and in genuine faith we will be born again. G-d will change you.

Once forgiven we aren't supposed to keep rolling around in the muck of sin. Yeshua said, "You're sins are forgiven you, now go and sin no more."

We will, we are human. But we can come to Hashem and ask forgiveness and he will pick us up off the floor again, brush us off and set us once again on the straight and narrow.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Climb2ski,

We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of G-d. That is why Yeshua HaMashiach came to Earth and willingly became the Lamb of G-d for the perfect atonement of our sins. He laid down his life for us, he loves us that much. All we have to do is accept it and be born again in the spirit of Adonai.

We all come in as sinners. Many of us have unspeakable backgrounds that we come from, but once we accept Hashem's grace through the perfect atoning blood of Yeshua, we are forgiven, and in genuine faith we will be born again. G-d will change you.

Once forgiven we aren't supposed to keep rolling around in the muck of sin. Yeshua said, "You're sins are forgiven you, now go and sin no more."

We will, we are human. But we can come to Hashem and ask forgiveness and he will pick us up off the floor again, brush us off and set us once again on the straight and narrow.


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I'm curious if Augusta membership policies have ever faced a serious legal challenge.

Regardless it is wrong.

They do have members with African ancestry and have at least invited women for membership. According to about 3 minutes of research I just did.

Like I said .. It is perhaps legal if only OWNERS are served.

This of course does not apply to the BSA. Since I was a member and never had any ownership.

--------------------


God may hold me to any standard he wishes I suppose. Not like I can stop him. But I see no point in lying to myself. I'm kinda into that beam, mote, rock throwing warning stuff myself.

That part makes a lot of sense to me. At least regarding basic sexuality stuff. Not so much when it comes to not stopping someone from hurting other people.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Still don't see how this applies to the BSA.

Even less how it applies to putting a hell of a lot of pressure on organizations that are dead wrong.

This BSA policy is wrong and pretty stupid. I loved my time in the organization and I hate the idea of excluding someone from experiencing that simply due to sexual preference.

Indeed it seems to go against everything the BSA stands for.

The Oath

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

The Law

A Scout is:

Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.


And before anyone goes off on the religious part of the rules.. those are particularly the ones that in my mind forbid excluding gays more than any other.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
For some, religion is great, because they will never develop the tools to know what is moral behavior, so the 'shotgun blast' to morality that religion gives is better than hoping that this lemming is going to come to the right conclusions about life.

However for some... we need to learn the tools to live the best life, and the model offered by almost all religions isn't with the perspective of the entirety of the human race but limited by social and geographic reasons. Big physically strong Males wrote the holy books, Buddhists found some good ways through life but I feel the full spectrum that this existence has to offer is wonderful...

I'm glad I evolved and learned what it was that mattered, but MOST importantly what DOESN'T matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaxrQAv1S38
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Still don't see how this applies to the BSA.

last reply to this, but I try again to answer your last above question


this applies to the BSA because they are a "private" organization, and not a "public" one

as such, again, they have decided since they were started to not allow gays

and again, by our US laws, they have every right to do that

see how this applies to the BSA yet?

by the way, I am an Eagle scout and I loved my boy scouts experience
I also understand they are not a public organization and they can let in, and not let in,
anyone they want, I hope you understand this now, even though you and me both don't like it. In fact, I turned in my Eagle badge in protest some years ago when I heard of a new group of fellow Eagles that were doing so in protest, maybe just maybe did some good in causing the BSA to now reconsider their ban on non heterosexuals
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Well that video pretty much covered it didn't it.

I'd add to that road thing. Don't try to close roads to others who may need them.

locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:45pm PT




"GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Feb 4, 2013 - 07:23pm PT


Come over I'll bake you a cake. Also might suck your dick.

that's private."
...


photo not found
Missing photo ID#288197
...
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
i really liked that video too, thanks!
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:05am PT
climbski: "morally straight."

Whether you like it or not, many churches that sponsor the BSA will interpret that statement differently than you. Having been a Scout Master, and having been on many campouts with scouts, the issue is not that obvious. Younger scouts...11-14 years of age, is not an age where kids want to deal with gay issues...it's gonna make them real uncomfortable. From the experiences of the gay people I know, they didn't even consider that they were gay until they were older than that. The boys just want to hike around, fish, rappel, cook their favorite meal, play capture the flag, earn merit badges etc.




climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:18am PT
I Don't recall sexuality of any sort being much of an issue as a scout. I don't recall a scoutmaster ever bringing up the issue in ANY manner. Like you said we were just busy working on stuff and doing cool things with our friends.

It really puzzles me why being gay would be any more disruptive an issue than being fat or a slow runner. Probably less so. Any disruption based on these types of things is commonly dealt with pretty well by any decent scoutmaster.

I suppose this is one reason the ban really bothers me. It seems to be making a major issue of an almost non-existant one.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:20am PT
It really puzzles me why being a gay boy scout leader

Openly... not a problem.


Deep in the closet... now we got some issues.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Younger scouts...11-14 years of age, is not an age where kids want to deal with gay issues [...]

And yet it is the the age range where boys call each other "gay" and "faggot" quite a bit.

I know I did.

Maybe it would be better to teach them that there's nothing wrong being who you are.

If we can remove a few insults from the vernacular of children, I'm going to call that progress.
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:25am PT
"I Don't recall sexuality of any sort being much of an open issue as a scout. At least not from the program point of view. I don't recall a scoutmaster ever bringing up the issue in ANY manner."

Well the issue shouldn't be brought up, but just like the BSA doesn't join up with girl scouts, they don't want to deal with similar problems.

Hyper charged kids is enough of a handful!

Dave said:
If we can remove a few insults from the vernacular of children, I'm going to call that progress.

Good point, we actually do teach that.


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:27am PT
Good behavior is expected of scouts. Name calling isn't condoned and didn't happen as much in the scouts as it did most other places. Oh we were definitely kids and stuff but basically we behaved better in general while participating.

For example we had a fat kid who got picked on in school a lot more than he did in scouts. Gym classes could be merciless on the non-athletic. But It wasn't cool to pick on a fellow scout.

With proper guidance if the issue did come up in a troop it should be the same.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:30am PT
It would be easier if the world were divided into two genders, different from each other but respectively consistent.

But God didn't make it that way.

That's right, GOD did not make the world the way we would like it to be.

He made us all different. Our neat, clean little model for society never really did fit His reality.

We can deal with it, or we can keep pretending.



GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:33am PT
If we can remove a few insults from the vernacular of children, I'm going to call that progress.


voodoo magic words like voodoo magic Gods...

From the experiences of the gay people I know

How big is that sample size again? 2 ex pastors?


I think hate against homosexuality is a learned trait, and it's learned all sorts of areas.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:34am PT
We all know God has nothing better to do than to worry if Adam chooses Steve over Eve.

I still find it disturbing Klimmer teaches science. No wonder America sucks in science.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:36am PT
voodoo magic words like voodoo magic Gods...

I like that James Bond movie with the voodoo guy.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:37am PT
I still find it disturbing Klimmer teaches science.

More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:39am PT
surely, you do not believe that being gay is a "choice" or consideration one makes?
that has been proven wrong a long time ago

Pretty much agree with you there, but I'll tell you, some parents will feel uncomfortable with a gay scout leader or scout.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:40am PT
^^^

No doubt about that.

Same holds true if they are black.

I'm all for a persons right to exclude themselves. I'm not all right with an organization making the choice for them.
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:52am PT
Same holds true if they are black.

Not true, Apples & Oranges
QITNL

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:19am PT
I was sort of curious about that myself.

http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_events/view/african-americans-boy-scout-movement

Mon, 1911-07-31

This date celebrates the founding of America’s first "Negro Boy Scout" troop in 1911. Initially started in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, opposition was encountered immediately, but troops continued to meet in increasing numbers. In 1916, the first official Boy Scout Council-promoted Negro Troop 75 began in Louisville, KY. By the next year, there were four official black troops in the area. By 1926, there were 248 all-black troops, with 4,923 black scouts and within ten years, there was only one Council in the entire South that refused to accept any black troops.

During this time as more troops started up, the Inter-racial Committee was established in January of 1927, with Stanley Harris as its leader. Also as part of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) Inter-racial Service was "Program Outreach," a program that combined racial minorities with rural, poor, and handicapped boys. These programs were often ineffective, especially with immigrants who feared the BSA as a means to recruit for the Army. Another problem with Program Outreach was that it often didn't distinguish between the boys it viewed as "less chance" and those who were simply not white.

For example, the program's reports categorize some scouts as “Feeble-minded, Delinquency Areas, Orphanages, and Settlements." Many of the scouts in "Delinquent Areas" were blacks, who were measured as "Special Troops." Instead of embracing black Scouting, the BSA systematically categorized blacks, bringing a literal meaning to "racial handicap" as the color of their skin was why they were considered "special."

Scouting for minorities wasn't just confined to cities, Scouting in rural areas were also common. One of these programs was called "railroad scouting," where employees of the BSA would ride trains throughout the rural South, stopping at every town on the way to distribute information and encourage the formation of troops. This policy originated to cut down on railroad vandalism, and the BSA realized it was a great way to promote its organization. Native Americans were also a large portion of the minority Scouts, and lived in settlements in rural areas. With the help of these programs, the two Southern Regions, Region V in Memphis and Region VI in Atlanta, had growth rates of 28.2% and 47.9%, respectively. In 1937, 57.9% of black Scouts were from these two regions.


More at the link. I have no idea if it is true.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:23am PT
but I'll tell you, some parents will feel uncomfortable with a gay scout leader or scout.

but I'll tell you, some parents will feel uncomfortable with a black scout leader or scout.
-----



Both statements appear equally true to me.

I don't see what you mean by apples and oranges. ie that it's different somehow.

Studly

Trad climber
WA
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:25am PT
Scouting is not about sexual orientation, its about everything else. So if your sexuality becomes a issue in Boy Scouts, gay or hetero, then you're out of line. No way end the ban.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:27am PT
So why are they making it an issue? You are correct the BSA are way out of line.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:29am PT
On a serious note, the problem isn't gay scouts, but gay scout leaders. It's a recipe for abuse and pedophilia.

I don't trust most straight men with my kid on a camping trip. You want me to send him camping with a gay scout leader? Call me a homophobe, or whatever. It's common f*#king sense.

No, not all of them. But that's why they have the rules. To eliminate the possibility.


Blue...YOU are the problem. You are intent on keeping out people that have nothing to do with the crime committed. Why not keep out kangaroos? Just as effective.

You'll note that YOUR approach has been an abject failure. And the reason is obvious. You are targeting the wrong people.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:32am PT
Hey Ken! he could be on the right track.. perhaps if we banned all people out of the BSA then kids wouldn't be preyed upon in the BSA?

I'm pretty sure that would work.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:34am PT
As a former Scout myself, and father of a Life Scout, the concern I have is of gay Scoutmasters being Boy-Buggerers! No parent worth his or her salt will willingly send a child off to camp to be molested. Most youngsters haven't yet a clue about their own sexual orientations at the age in which Scouting begins. So...no...I will not vote for "allowing gays to be in scouts." It really isn't about the boys, is it?

Brokedown, that is EXACTLY what you are doing, because, through your lack of knowledge, you are NOT screening out the people you have to worry about.

Gays assaulting children is so rare, as to be a headline event. Virtually unknown.

But you don't bother to screen for the people you really need to worry about....pedophiles.

Why are intent on protecting pedophiles and supporting their attacks on children?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:36am PT
So...Climbski2...are YOU a parent? The business of being PC pales into insignificance to parents. I'm hopeful that someday a grandson of mine will become a Scout, and I really wouldn't appreciate a sexual predator as a Scoutmaster.

And yet.... you choose the PC position, based upon bias, wrong thinking, and a century of failed policy.

Your position INVITES a sexual predator as Scoutmaster. One wonders why you want that?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:37am PT
Ken M, please don't confuse me with the homophobic dipshits here. I am absolutely NOT saying homosexuals molest children. Sorry if it came off that way.

I am saying people who have not developed a healthy sense of sexuality are more likely to molest children. I'm not sure how much you have dealt with Mormons, but they tend to have pretty twisted views on sexuality... especially homosexuality.

I am a firm believer that homosexuality is perfectly healthy, perfectly normal, and in no way predisposes anyone to child molestation. Religions that suppress natural sexual tendencies and retard sexual development are another story.


Point taken, sorry for the misunderstanding.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 08:36am PT
I just started reading this--the last few pages only, in fact--but +1000 for Ken's fact-based BS debunking.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:31am PT
One would think that a perv ( gay or straight) would find their way to to the Boy Scouts regardless of what the public stance is. You see this with other youth organizations( youth sports) . How many times have you read about the youth coach being arrested for inappropriate behavior and more recently, female teachers/coaches having inappropriate relationships with underaged youth. Sad world we live in.
While reading about this debate, I read that men can be leaders of Girl Scout troops with the restriction that a FEMALE adult is also present. Personally, I think having a parent present regardless of the leaders sexual orientation or gender is probably a really good idea.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jerry Sandusky & Penn State?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Just curious, how many here had a jr. high school coach who would sit at his desk and watch all the boys shower... you know, just to make sure you were getting everything clean? Or make you stand in a line and drop your pants, while he slowly walked by, making sure everyone had the proper equipment? If you didn't have a jock strap/cup, you stood there with your pants around your ankles while he lectured you about how bad it would hurt if he kicked you in the junk.

Complaints were made for years, but in the end there was nothing to worry about... he was a good member of "the church," which means Mormon in Utah, and even a scout leader. As far as I know, he never touched anyone... but it was creepy nevertheless.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia, is a psychiatric disorder described as exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (11 or younger).

The BSA are aged 11-18 (primarly postpubescent children).

So, child molestation would involve a minor (any age under 18).

Pedophilia involves a child under 12.

All pedophiles are child molesters, but the vast majority of child molesters are not pedophiles.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) outlines specific criteria for use in the diagnosis of this disorder. These include the presence of sexually arousing fantasies, behaviors or urges that involve some kind of sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 11 years or younger, though the diagnosis criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13) for six months or more, and that the subject has acted on these urges or suffers from distress as a result of having these feelings.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
I think the perception by some that a gay troop leader is going to automatically assault your kid is totally wrong. My kids are not in the scouts but are heavily involved in youth athletics. I am sure they have had a gay coach along the way. So what ! It is my job as a parent to stay involved enough in my kids lives that I can determine if any of their coaches are creepy. In organized youth sports, I see measures in place to prevent children from being ALONE with a coach. Personally, I am more worried about the perv pedo than I am about whom the troop leader or coach chooses to sleep with at night. More and more often it seems that the dudes getting busted for molestation are sickos that are living their life being perceived as straight and are married, Sandusky for example.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:37pm PT


Ban the Boyscouts...

Problem solved!!!...



Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
Avoid this ST rig
Avoid this ST rig
Credit: Snowmassguy
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia, is a psychiatric disorder described as exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (11 or younger).

The BSA are aged 11-18 (primarly postpubescent children).

So, child molestation would involve a minor (any age under 18).

Pedophilia involves a child under 12.

All pedophiles are child molesters, but the vast majority of child molesters are not pedophiles.


You have the rationale of a liberal psycho....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Ah yes, discussing terms used in medical diagnoses is the trademark of a psycho. Go drink a beer or 12 and play with your guns you fuknard.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
Pisschrist, so you are going to side with someone who wants to delineate sexual perversion with kids under 18? One is a different kind of pervert than the other? Just based on being under 12?

Fine. You have proven to be the rotten soul I suspected of you.

Have fun, d#@&%e!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
I see, Blue.

You define aomeone who is gay having sex with a teenager as a pervert....but someone who is straight having sex with a teen as JUST FINE.

I guess you are part of that fine southern religious tradition of folks getting married to children of 12. Hoo-Yah.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
God blurring, you are such a fuking idiot!
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
I think the perception by some that a gay troop leader is going to automatically assault your kid is totally wrong.

Yeah, and I don't believe that there is much, if any correlation between gays and pedophiles.

The issue is with campouts. With gays there will be a small percentage of them that may come on to the boys in that setting...it's happened before and it's going to creep them out. As a leader it's much harder to keep track of all that in an outdoor situation... it's not a good mix.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:13am PT
Speaking strictly of scout on scout action... I can see how it might be uncomfortable for a scout to have another scout hit on them. But probably no more uncomfortable than the countless times I was asked to praise Jesus and bless sh#t... or listen to how so and so felt their imaginary friend's hand pull them from the icey waters.

If you don't want to be around religious homophobic fuknards, BS may not be the place for you. Which is fine, as long as the ones that specifically exclude gays don't get special tax exempt status...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:25am PT
The issue is with campouts. With gays there will be a small percentage of them that may come on to the boys in that setting...it's happened before and it's going to creep them out. As a leader it's much harder to keep track of all that in an outdoor situation... it's not a good mix.

WAIT A MINUTE!

The boy scouts prohibit scout leaders from being gay.

so how has "this happened before????????"

HOW?

Document what you say, or be seen as the poser that you are......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 6, 2013 - 02:28am PT
If you don't want to be around religious homophobic fuknards, BS may not be the place for you. Which is fine, as long as the ones that specifically exclude gays don't get special tax exempt status...

EXACTLY what this is all about. The Boy Scouts, the organization, is being increasingly isolated because of their national policy.

They seek to shed the national policy, and allow locals to make their own decision.

No national policy against gays. Neat, eh?

Guess how many locals will open up?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2013 - 03:51am PT
Perhaps germane to the topic: Chris Hitchens on Baden Powell

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2004/06/hitchens.htm
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Feb 6, 2013 - 09:48am PT
The issue is with campouts. With gays there will be a small percentage of them that may come on to the boys in that setting...it's happened before and it's going to creep them out. As a leader it's much harder to keep track of all that in an outdoor situation... it's not a good mix.

WAIT A MINUTE!

The boy scouts prohibit scout leaders from being gay.

so how has "this happened before????????"

HOW?

Document what you say, or be seen as the poser that you are......


Good question! I heard it as a comment on a local radio talk show by a caller and again on a local news blog...Deseret News.

The BSA isn't for everyone. Most of it's sponsors are Christian churches...so you'll likely get that element, but my experience as a scout and as a volunteer leader is that it's mostly positive. I've had kids years later thank me for all of the great, fun activities & campouts that they normally wouldn't have ever done. Scouting helped fuel my interest in climbing.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
While I am troubled by the "Christian" foundation of scouting, and the common sponsorship of churches, I have no doubt that scouting has done many things very positive for many boys. Royal Robbins makes a very clear point of that in his autobiography.

A shame that it has this part of it that seems intolerant to me.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
consider:



Impact on American life

Further information: Scouting in popular culture, List of Scouts, and List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America)
Scouting and Boy Scouts are well-known throughout American culture. The term "Boy Scout" is used to generally describe someone who is earnest and honest, or who helps others cheerfully; it can also be used as a pejorative term for someone deemed to be overly idealistic.[86]
Prominent Americans in diverse walks of life, from moviemaker Steven Spielberg (who helped launch a merit badge in cinematography) to adventurer Steve Fossett to politicians, were BSA members as youths.[87][88] Over two-thirds of all astronauts have had some type of involvement in Scouting,[89] and eleven of the twelve men to walk on the Moon were Scouts, including Eagle Scouts Neil Armstrong and Charlie Duke.[90][91] The pinewood derby—a wood car racing event for Cub Scouts—has been declared "a celebrated rite of spring" and was named part of "America's 100 Best" by Reader's Digest.[92]
President Gerald Ford said, "I can say without hesitation, because of Scouting principles, I know I was a better athlete, I was a better naval officer, I was a better Congressman, and I was a better prepared President."[93]


Norman Rockwell's Beyond the Easel
Famed American illustrator Norman Rockwell's works were closely associated with the Boy Scouts of America for much of the 20th century.[94]:43 Beginning in 1913, Rockwell began illustrating covers of Boys' Life, the magazine for BSA youth. He also drew the organization's annual calendar illustrations between 1925 and 1976.[94]:89
In 1969, as a tribute to Norman Rockwell's 75th birthday, officials of Brown & Bigelow and the Boy Scouts of America asked Rockwell to pose in Beyond the Easel for a calendar illustration. As part of the U.S. Bicentennial celebrations in 1976, Rockwell's Scouting paintings toured the nation and were viewed by 280,000 people.[94]:155 In 2008, a twelve-city U.S. tour of Rockwell's works was scheduled.[95]
Alvin Townley wrote in Legacy of Honor about the large positive impact of Eagle Scouts in America. Townley cited such examples as how Scouts, especially Eagle Scouts, were disproportionately represented among Hurricane Katrina's volunteer relief workers; just as they are disproportionately represented among members of the United States Senate.[3]:152 Governor Rick Perry of Texas is an Eagle Scout who defended BSA policies and restrictions against ACLU criticisms in his book, On My Honor: Why the American Values of the Boy Scouts Are Worth Fighting For.[96]
Mark Mays, CEO of Clear Channel Communications, told a magazine interviewer in May 2008 that, "Particularly in the very impactful ages of youth 11 to 14 years old, when they can really go astray and you're taking the time to spend with them and focus on cultural core values like reverent, trustworthy, loyal, and helpful —all of those different things ... Scouting has a huge positive impact on boys and their lives, and that in turn positively impacts our communities and society as a whole."[97]
Mayor of New York City and business tycoon Michael Bloomberg, said that the BSA's Scout Law required of all Boy Scouts—a Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent—are "all the American values ... Americans have quaintly simplistic ways and direct ways of phrasing things ... I think it's one of the great strengths of this country."[3]:116
Peter Applebome, an editor of The New York Times, wrote in 2003 of his experience as an adult participating with his son in Scouting activities, "I feel lucky to have had this unexpected vehicle to share my son's youth, to shape it, and to be shaped by it as well."[98] He concluded that, although Scouting is viewed by some as old-fashioned, "Scouting's core values ... are wonderful building blocks for a movement and a life. Scouting's genuinely egalitarian goals and instincts are more important now than they've ever been. It's one of the only things that kids do that's genuinely cooperative, not competitive."[98]:319–320
At the turn of the 20th century, Halloween had turned into a night of vandalism, with destruction of property and cruelty to animals and people.[99] Around 1912, the BSA, Boys Clubs and other neighborhood organizations came together to encourage a safe celebration that would end the destruction that had become so common on this night.[100]
The Boy Scouts of America are quite particular about how and when the Scout uniforms and insignia may be used in film and other portrayals; and for that reason, most films and television productions made in the U.S. utilize "ersatz" Scouting organizations. Examples of this include the "Order of the Straight Arrow", portrayed in the King of the Hill cartoon series, and the "Indian Guides" depicted in the 1995 Chevy Chase film, Man of the House. A notable exception to this policy is the final scene of The Sopranos television show, where Tony Soprano sits down to dinner in a restaurant. At another table, several Cub Scouts, in full uniform, are seated.
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