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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Bruce wrote:
I think this sneering down at the idiots on Rainer or Everest for using O2 or diamox is just a bit over the top. Ifv you don't like how they climb then go do your own climbing.
This was perhaps what I was empathizing with in cowpoke's post.
Yet, I would have to push the other way a bit on my quote of your words with Vitaliy's point:
Noobs on Denali put others at MUCH MORE serious danger than noobs on half dome.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
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Anybody who climbs Denali by a "trade route" should be cognizant of the zoo he/she is entering.
Yes, they should be, but probably don't care, because it's on their bucket list.
It's like in the Sierra. Everybody wants to climb Whitney. Yet, there are so many better climbs on many other peaks
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
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Quite obvious to you Tarbuster, but doesn't seem to be so obvious to many posting here.
It really does seem pretty basic.
To climb Everest Naked, solo alpine style without oxygen during the monsoon via the South Pillar after having been raised by Yeti's with no knowledge of human technologies or climbing history would be the greatest challenge and therefore the most impressive.
To take a pressurized tram while eating steaks to the top would be the least impressive.
Somewhere along that line various folks arbitrarily insert the word "cheating"
FARK!!! I can't beleive I'm getting into another 02 debate after decades of em.
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Regarding n00bs on Denali. I suppose at some basic level they create a bit of risk to others. I can't say I ever considered them a risk to me. I would help a person out on Denali although I'd be pissed off about having to stop what I was doing cause they screwed up, I've done a few rescues on other climbs. I NEVER felt compelled to take any higher risk during a rescue than I have climbing. Infact I'm inclined to take less due to concerns about the rest of the team/teams.
This seems different than on Everest where bottle necking is a significant issue. It's not an issue on Denali for any competant mountaineer.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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A proposition....how about all of the wonderful, usually much more technical, mountains surrounding the Pig?
For that you need to develop attraction to climbing a lot of mountains in general. Personally, I climbed Denali a year after I started climbing/hiking/mountaineering. Reason why I got into it in the first place was because I watched Everest Beyond the limit (LOL) and thought climbing 7 summits was hardest thing ever. Maybe it is, for people who climb only a few peaks a year. In my first year I have done probably 35+ mountains above 13K (climbed Rainier, Whitney in winter, did a few 5th class ridge climbs in winter with forced bivies, and did a few other 5th class climbs here). By the time I went to Denali I wanted to do the west rib and w.buttress was an acclimation. But conditions on NE fork were terrible that year, so was the weather and we didn’t do it. There are a lot of people that go there to do Cassin and end up only on west buttress, that’s the risk.
So I think majority go there because it is a huge challenge to them to climb the highest peak in N. America, for a non climber. It is a different question if a good chunk of those people belong there. But than, do some of the top of the line alpinists belong on big faces they dunno if they can climb? If you put together a statistic, I bet a lot more alpinists die/require rescues compared to hikers on Denali etc. In a way seems like both are challenging themselves and jumping a bit over their head…Climbing is great because it is not organized and no one can really tell you what you should do (at least we can bullshit about it on the internet, thank god). My first ever climb, was up Mt. Shasta without a sleeping pad, my high school back pack with a strapped borrowed not rated sleeping bag, no ice axe/crampons, running shoes, and a ski pole. Did I belong there? NO. Did I know any better? NO. Did I have a fun doing it? It was one of the most epic things I have done at that point in my life! So I guess a lot of those people in the unprepared crowds just don’t know any better and have not developed the desire to climb as much as some of the people who dedicate their whole life to it. Even as trophy hunters I bet they are having time of their life out there.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Fact is Everest and Rainer, like it or not, is where the low brow mob can practice their own little bit of Bushido. Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.
Great point Bruce.
When you do a 20hour round trip summit day (from 17K) on Denali you are obviously giving yourself a HUGE challenge!
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.
Hopefully this is what Twight is really driving at.
Bruce, I think you hit the nail on the head
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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I think climbski2 best nailed it way upthread: "Do what you like, say what you did." It ain't cheating if everyone knows the rules you played by."
Or, probably even better: why tell anyone what you did? (not that I don't!)
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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Everest stands out in the climbing world as being a totally bullshit thing to do. If I learn someone has climbed Everest but few other alpine peaks, I think "gumby." On the other hand, someone taking on a moderate peak like Rainier, but not being guided, is a climber. As to O2, I'm still waiting for the North Face to design a spacesuit that solves all the oxygen and temperature issues for me.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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Kind of OT, but I just re-read Bonningtons book on the SW Face, done with the Whillans boxes siege style (Scott, Haston etc.) Has that been done Alpine style?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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Whillans boxes siege style (Scott, Haston etc.)
Siege style yes. But getting the to top as the sun was setting and getting ready to hunker down for the night added adventure points.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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Funny how the "truth" can wear different clothes. A persons perspective is paramount in determining what they perceive as the truth. The old adage...."there are two sides to every story," comes into play.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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Again, as with my EPO querry, my question about the SW face is a non sequitur. Just figured someone here might know?
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Mft: the man, the myth, and the self-righteous self-promoter.
he's put out some good information for sure. extreme alpinism when it came out was very influential to me personally. some of his writing where he lays bare his own emotional experiences are very revealing and powerful.
and as a human he's likely a decent guy: i haven't seen a bunch of negativity coming from those who've climbed with him.
that said, i personally find that the self-righteousness and self-promotion found in his writing quickly gets tiresome.
just to pick apart this latest bit of writing. it's titled "What The Cheaters Have Done To Us?".
well, the answer to this question with regards to high altitude "cheaters" is very simple: they've done nothing to us.
the logical fallacy that he uses is to equate high altitude climbing where people are not hiding that they use oxygen, diamox, with lieing on resumes, "amateur athletes lieing about accomplishments", etc. and etc.
just because he has personally decided that for him to climb with o's is not his cup of tea, doesn't make it cheating. dictionary defines cheating as "acting dishonestly or unfairly". if you're not lieing about what you've done and if you're not in an endeavour with agreed upon rules you have by definition not cheated. and thank jebus climbing still has some anarchy.
in regards to the self-promotion, it's pretty interesting that he basically wrote his own wiki page [thanks to orangesporanges for pointing this out]. and pretty interesting that his wiki page claims he "ushered in the single-push climbing movement." hmmm.... i guess that must mean that the climbs profit, lafaille, loretan and troillet [to name but a few] did in the 80's were just extended bad dreams.
regardless of all this, he's often an entertaining writer. and with the above said, i still have a lot of appreciation for a good part of the information and introspective writing he's put out there.
but the bullshit is still bullsh#t even if it's mostly due to hyperbole.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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Cowpoke dead on. Goes back to what Paul started up thread about how the challenge of the game changes due to knowledge and equipment over time. Free diving like the Australian guy pushing the limits without fins or lead weights. Seems like the challenges comes full circle, using knowledge and equipment to "cheat" what the human body is capable of but then using what is gained to go back to a more human way. Honnold and Messner showing us how. Learned on gear and knowledge gained from previous history, then stripping it down to where cheating can't enter. Blowing minds on trade routes climbed by the many using what most of us use to "cheat" our way up (to take from Bruce, because we're all cheating anyway aren't we?) and turning them into a thing of beauty all over again. I think everyone here agrees that what Norgay and Hillary achieved with siege and O2 wasn't cheating and that Messner couldn't do what he did without what came before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFeN_6xPsM Ironically, the things we use to "cheat" (hang dogging, equipment etc.) end up being the thing that frees us.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
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Roy, you were one of the people to proudly usher in rap bolting in JT, BITD, laughing arrogantly at those of us who tried to preserve the resource at the time. You made fun of me for caring so much about the SFHD being rap bolted, why the bleeding heart for Everest?
Why, because I’m just a dick Cozzy!
I’m not so invested in these arguments.
[Edit] It is just a discussion. Taking a shot at my trad climbing cred is unnecessary.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Okay, I just watched this dude Garrett McNamara ride a humongous wave off of Portugal. Dude has cajones.
But, would some people consider the use of a jet ski to tow a surfer out or the use of a pony bottle in case of wiping out as cheating?
I suppose it is all in one's perspective. In the 1970s I just use to surf tiny stuff in Monterey Bay and Santa Cruz.
Would I use a jet ski and pony bottle if I tackled a 90 foot wave? Damn right, I want to live.
And what about the guy on the jet ski, he must have had some ride too.
EDIT
watched the interview with ABC/NBC/? whatever. McNamara says he wasn't scared just a rush. And he works with autistic kids teaching them how to surf. Coolaboola.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
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Just because some have climbed at 8000 meters peaks without O2 proves nothing, beyond the fact that these few are risking severe brain damage and probably would be the first to grab for a bottle if they started having problems. Jim these studs are proving nothing but the wiliness to ruin their brains, and disregard their lives, in a selfish pursuit, with no greater value than self. To use this suicidal behavior as an example that the world should follow, is nothing short of absurd.
Same could be said about Southern Belle for example, Coz.
Just because some have climbed it with X amount of bolts does not mean others have to. They are risking severe body damage/death by attempting it (and some did break their limbs trying), and probably would be the first to grab a drill (if they could) when they get off route.
Coz, craggers prove nothing by climbing runout routes but their willingness to put their life at risk, in a selfish pursuit, with no greater value than self. To use this suicidal behavior as an example that the world should follow, is nothing short of absurd.
: )
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.
Wow, Jim. Thanks for the heads up on what the future holds. So I can look forward to someday climbing the Cassin Ridge, Central Pillar of Freney, Cerro Torre and Everest VIA FERATTA. Coolaboola. Sign me up. I just have to find the money. ;-)
But I still have to shed a few pounds. Few? What an understatement.
Basically I am a coward, which is why I could never get past leading 11a/b or alpine and ice climbing in the Sierra (and Cascades - how many of you can say you were on the 'old' summit of Mt St Helens? and in high school my proudest 'send' was the Price Glacier on Shuksan), and a couple of Mexican volcanoes, but I do believe doing things in style, but again, what is the perspective of what style is?
Anyway, I have never pushed my limits because I like life, a nice hotel and a good dinner. Just can't afford the latter two.
I still have my dreams. Ama Dablam and Cho Oyu, shouldn't need oxygen, and oh yes, I have wet dreams about the Cassin Ridge. Pumori and Taweche too.
Some of the posters on this thread I envy, because, when I should have been concentrating on my climbing, I had the silly dream of becoming a football pro in Europe - at 26. Whereas some of you have gone out and pushed the limits. But I always have to remind myself... Envy is one of the seven deadly sins.
Would I use oxygen on Everest? I'd certainly would take it along, make sure the tank came back down for the dump called Khumbu Glacier, and above all, do a route, not trade, with real climbers.
EDIT
Actually my proudest send in high school (16), with my HS climbing buddy Steve Fish, was North Palisade via U-Notch after Polemonium Peak via V-Notch. But Shuksan sure was nice for a 16-year-old.
Now I am just waiting for the Via Feratta for Ama Dablam, Walker Spur and Half Dome (oops, it's already there). Okay, I'll settle for a via Feratta of HDNF, considering Snake Dike is the only thing I have done on that heap pile of... beautiful granite. (Watched a total full moon lunar eclipse after the climb on that ton of rock, party and all with other climbers).
But unless you have climbed on Mt Diablo, none of you people have anything on me. And I didn't need oxygen, but that sandstone is shitty, you need props like some tequilla and weed.
Good and safe climbing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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Thanks Coz,
I'm not back for long, this is physically painful.
I'm not chickening out either; though I know you are half joking, I just don't have that strong an opinion on the matter.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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Couldn't agree more, if you read my story in Largo's last book, Yosemite Climbers or some such, I express the madness behind this mind set.
Basically that's what every thread about oxygen, Everest, people on Half Dome etc etc comes down to.
'Climbing is anarchy.' :)
....but we still can talk sh#t on the internetz!
*exits room, time to work*
PS: Would love to read about what you wrote in that book. Sounds interesting. There are some climbs that are very impressive for the era, and that was one of them IMO.
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