Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:17am PT
|
have nothing better to do and have minds the size of walnuts
LOL you sound as bad as I do
hahahaha ......
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 12:26am PT
|
"diamox kicks ass"
Ya, no bias there. Glad I could piss in your cereal bowl this morning.
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:35am PT
|
maybe he has done some note worthy climbs, and is modest about them
first statement is more or less valid; second is a joke
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:19am PT
|
Say ... Anybody here on the forum by chance have an opinion on Mark Twight? haha.
Thanks for the link Dane.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:43am PT
|
Juat eat a dick already and STFU
Go lick a decomposed vagina and stop telling us what to fkin do mofukka! cuz sht u do aint nottin!
lol
jk
|
|
TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:59am PT
|
" Mix one high school diploma with an undergrad degree and a college sweet-heart. With a whisk (or a whip) blend two cars, a poorly built house in a cul de sac, and 50 hours a week working for a board that doesn't give a sh#t about you.
Reproduce once. Then again. Place all ingredients in a rut, or a grave. One is a bit longer than the other. Bake thoroughly until the resulting life is set. Rigid. With no way out. Serve and enjoy. But there is a way out. Live the lifestyle instead of paying lip service to the life style. Live with commitment. With emotional content. Give up this renaissance man, dilettante bullshit of doing a lot of different things( and none of them very well by real standards). Get to the guts of one thing; accept without casuistry, the responsibility of making a choice. When you live honestly, you can not separate your mind from your body, or your thoughts from your actions."
Twight. You call it what you want, but , for me, even though Twight admitted this was a bit over the top and purposely so, therein can be found a grain of truth. Twitching with Twight. it's about climbing, but it's about life more importantly.
TY
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:53am PT
|
I find myself conflicted about the arguments (ideas proposed in this thread, if I am reading them correctly) that center on the notion that whether something is cheating or not depends on how difficult it would be to accomplish the feat without the "cheating."
On the one hand, the increased danger and difficulty of not using oxygen (and, in turn, the fact that going without oxygen means only the truly exceptional humans will ever get to the top of the highest peaks) seems, at best, irrelevant to whether it should be considered cheating. And, at worst, it may be central to the point of why it is cheating.
On the other hand, if we can't use oxygen to explore extreme environments, then do we have to reconsider deep ocean and space exploration and wonder: did we get to the moon by fair means? That seems silly. [But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen.]
Just rambling with the disclaimer: I am the epitome of the "arm chair quarterback" on this issue, having absolutely zero experience at altitude and, therefore, commenting on something I can't possibly be trusted to judge with any authority of experience.
Moreover, I form my opinion of the author's writing and argument based only on what appears in the essay -- I don't know him, and even if I did, I would not have the moral authority (or experience) to judge him.
That said, my opinion of the essay is that it is well written and provocative (and timely), to which this thread attests. And, it does make me sad that places like Everest appear to be (from the arm chair) something like DisneyExtreme, and I'm biased toward any argument that might reduce impact on extreme places. Even though I will never go to any of the wildest parts of the universe, I want to imagine (in the John Lennon sense) that they are unspoiled.
I do hope the author sends it to a wider audience, although if (as some here have indicated) he is being hypocritical, then the power is lost...and I will hope that someone with the moral authority to make the case will pick up the baton.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:01am PT
|
Cowpoke: from my armchair, I'd have to say that was pretty well said.
How hard is it to get EPO in this country? You know, for recreational purposes. How expensive?
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:27am PT
|
Cowpoke...using oxygen to explore the oceans and deep space is one thing and using oxygen to summit a 8000 meter peak quite another.
1) The oceans and deep space cannot be explored without oxygen, while it is demonstrated every year that, with proper preparation, 8000 meter summits are accessible without it's use.
2) Exploring the bottom of the oceans and deep space are benificial to everyone in that they increase our scientific knowledge.
Climbing an 8000 meter peak benefits only the person who does it and has not the slightest impact on increasing the body of knowledge about the World/Universe around us.
It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.
If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.
As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.
Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.
|
|
10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:28am PT
|
How many here complain about the hordes of tourists climbing Half Dome?
That's the same thing that Twight complains about in describing the "noobs" on the west butt of Denali
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:39am PT
|
Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.
Now that specific point Donini, inasmuch as it also addresses the use of supplemental oxygen is very clear and quite obvious to most of us who play the game for real.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:42am PT
|
On the other hand, if we can't use oxygen to explore extreme environments, then do we have to reconsider deep ocean and space exploration and wonder: did we get to the moon by fair means? That seems silly. [But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen.]
100 people+ (on a summit day), with another 200+ servants (Sherpas/guides) of theirs, ascending a rope with a jumar is not what I would call exploring. As was said in the article, when you claim the summit of Everest you claim a certain level of fitness/accomplishment, which could be seen as unhuman to those that climb. GREAT athletes of today can't even find out if they could climb Everest without O2 or how fast due to huge summit lines. I do understand that everyone has their right to be there, people are making a lot of money on it etc etc, but it is very sad. (just my opinion)
PS: For example, when I did Mt. Denali (one year after I started hiking/mountaineering) we needed a replacement for one of our team members who dropped out. There was a guy who had done the 5th highest peak (8000+ M) in the world who was recommended to us. "WOW he wants to go with US? REALLY? Seems overqualified for our team!" Well, he couldn't carry his share of the group gear, and still was slow as sh#t on the days we moved camp.
//"How were you able to do Cho Oyu?"
"-We had Sherpas who carried our gear, I only carried my daypack."//
This guy wanted to be roped up with us on the summit day. He had all his 8000M peak gear etc. My partner and I were afraid of getting frostbite if we go that slow, so we formed own 2 person team and he went with another guy from our team. He ended up getting frost bite, even in the 8000M outfit/boots/with mitts on from the start. He claimed he summited. I dunno, he didn't have any pictures on the summit ridge.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:42am PT
|
Quite obvious to you Tarbuster, but doesn't seem to be so obvious to many posting here.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:45am PT
|
Probably so. We have a broad readership nowadays.
Perhaps I should recant my approval of the earlier portions of his post and what it seemed to indicate, but where he went with it in the latter half, I more or less agree with.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
|
How many here complain about the hordes of tourists climbing Half Dome?
That's the same thing that Twight complains about in describing the "noobs" on the west butt of Denali
Not at all true. Half Dome is not Denali. Read my story about the guy in our team. Guided expeditions have 4 of these usually tied to a guide. People that do not put in work to belong there you know? Those that could take a fall descending a 40 degree slope after an 18 hour day (even though for any reasonably fit climber round trip should not take more than 11-12 hours, counting staying on top for a long time taking pictures and all).
Noobs on Denali put others at MUCH MORE serious danger than noobs on half dome. Weather changes are not really extreme in Sierra neither, most of the time.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:52am PT
|
Simple..Put those who want to visit the top on a helicopter and give an Everest tour. Pre req is a trek to base camp with sherpa/guide support (who will get paid). And let the climbers climb the peak without O2/sherpas/fixed ropes. I wonder how many summits Everest will get than hahaha. Probably 6 in 10 years or something ridiculous.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:54am PT
|
Anybody who climbs Denali by a "trade route" should be cognizant of the zoo he/she is entering. Unfortunately, the precious few who climb via an interesting route need to deal with the maddening hordes on the descent.
A proposition....how about all of the wonderful, usually much more technical, mountains surrounding the Pig? Not the highest peaks in NA but much more satisfying from a real climbers point of view.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:58am PT
|
Jim: You're asking a lot from people who probably just don't have the capacity to get it. Not that we shouldn't try. They are trophy hunters.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
|
The comparison of hormone therapy and epo doping in professional sport with the use of bottled oxygen and diamox in mountaineeringis completely ridiculous.
It was a non sequitur. I didn't ask the question to suggest a correlation.
Thanks for the link!
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
|
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
|
donini, I am in complete agreement with you. Indeed, your point was precisely why, after posing the deep ocean and going to the moon question, I included the caveat (and end the argumentation portion of my post with): "But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen."
In other words, I am saying: comparing climbing mountains with going to the moon is not only silly because of the "fair means" issue, but because climbing mountains is NOT like deep ocean exploring or going to the moon, precisely because it CAN be done without oxygen. [caps not because I'm yelling -- I'm definitely still playing the humble card in this discussion -- but so that I'm not misread.]
Sorry that got lost in the mix, but I was floating alongside the types of arguments that occurred to me in a rather stream of consciousness manner.
Glad you appreciated where I landed, Tarbuster. And, so very, very glad to see you around these parts again.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!