and I bet you thought Twight was dead????

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orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:57am PT
FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E

I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).

There are other "critics" come advocates for mountain stewardship who would willingly do the same when next in the neighbourhood.

To note, MFT has been back to such areas in later years, and made no noteworthy attempt to redeem himself by retrieving the stuff he dumped. His mate Steve House should give him a kick in the butt, Steve followed-up his promise to attempt to retrieve gear he'd left on Makalu.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:06am PT
I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).

I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:07am PT
Can of Worms.

edit:I deemed it unkind. Nosir. I would rather trend the other way.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Skully: go put your post back on my thread please!
No response too whacked, too short, or too deep. Werd.

[edit] okay dude, yer golden.
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:19am PT
I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.

U.S. dollars mean much-little these days. So I need to appreciate your motivations - the point you wish to make is....?
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:40am PT
What about using 02 scuba diving is that cheating?

Or how about using 02 period, perhaps Twight holds his breath?

02 is intrinsic to scuba diving. It would be cheating the truth to use it for Free Diving however. Though, it is unlikely that anyone would ever judge Twight unfairly if he never free dived.

Twight would be cheating the truth however if he proclaimed a standard and wanted recognition for his free diving ethics yet failed to 'in the same proverbial breath' mention the use of scuba air when things got difficult.

Ever told someone you climbed an 8,000 peak Coz? If so, were they impressed? And did you in the same breath tell them about whether you did or didn't use the ladders to bypass technical sections along the selected route?
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 03:17am PT
Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

What the f*#k is wrong with you guys? You sound like a bunch of 12 year school girls not climbers. Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

And we all know damn few of you would...being polite and all.

weak.....
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:56am PT
Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

An offer was made. He declined.

Twight did gnar, no-doubt. But he's fair game when he spiels mightily about how weak others are for not disclosing how they did O2 on Everest while at the same time failing to mention how his crew was sucking O's when things got tough.

I put it to you that your own discourse is, in your own words "weak".

MFT didn't need to climb Everest with oxygen to know if that's not the right style for him. But he ought STFU with the self-promotion if he did use O's himself.

In all, O2 is not a big deal if one is truthful. 'Climving' using ladders though.....f'me. Dumping stuff with no intention to come back for it, well...what say you since you have a penchant for defining 'weak'?

And recall, you and MFT have invited attention to the guy's words and actions here.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 04:59am PT
Sure it was....must have been the oranges.
Attacking the messenger only means you have lost the argument.

Some how you missed it was a short commentary on a specific subject not Twight's confession on Oprah. Roy got it, Coz got it and even Donini got it.

As I said...weak.
Degaine

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:12am PT
donini wrote:
It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.

If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.

As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.

Nicely written as well as the entire post.

I am curious as to where you, personally, draw the line?

Twight's article and point of view are interesting, but some parts read a little to much like "my form of purity is the only form of purity".

You mention climbing style once one starts the actual climbing. Twight, however, talks about sherpas and porters. Why not take it a step further? Did he take a plane to the Himalaya/Alaska/etc.? Use some sort of motorized vehicle to reach a starting point?

As I mentioned earlier, take Twight's article to its logical end point, and Goran Kropp is the only person who has a "pure" ascent of Everest. Of course even he benefited from the equipment / infrastructure already available.

We all seem to know what IS and what IS NOT, both far-ends of the spectrum are clear, it's the gray area that everyone argues about, and often times the differences in one's approach are so subtle that the argument amounts to pissing on one another in an attempt to feel superior (not talking about you donini, getting general here) to the other. I find this especially true in Himalayan climbing (for example, what about using oxygen to sleep well, but not while you are actually doing the ascending of Everest?).

On a side note, donini, I have a few friends who take the same approach as you with regard to 7000 meter peaks; the want to climb technical new routes on often unclimbed peaks and not have to deal with the oxygen logistics, etc., that comes with 8000m endeavors.
Degaine

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:16am PT
Tarbuster wrote:
That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Those neophytes would not be able to "bag these trophies" if there were not enablers (read guides and guiding outfits). Some of these guides are or have been individuals in the climbing community that many admire for their accomplishments and abilities.

I personally have no problem with guided groups and bringing a non-experienced climber to the summit of whatever peak, even Everest.

What I do have a problem with is the garbage left (feces, O2 bottles or otherwise). Kudos to people like Conrad Anker et al who have made efforts to clean up Everest.
WTF

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

Anyway I like tw#t not Twight.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Dane - I think you 're being a bit diss-ingenuous with your criticism. It seems to me that MT is pretty much guilty of the same. I don't recall him ever calling me a homo lame ass to my face, only in print..... kind of like his critics here. One of the things that always puzzled me about him was how his friends and acquaintances always said "he's really a great guy - not at all like his writing!"

WTF? I'm sure he is but if so why present yourself otherwise in print? Fact is, he presents his ideas completely (presumably?) truthfully and I'm sure he is not such a shrinking violet that he dosn't expect some scathing (and well reasoned ) criticism in return.

So you know him obviously. Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick completely lacking in empathy, nuance and a reasonable grasp of ambiguity? We all get his drift with high ideals but you could pretty much say the same for the Taliban suicide bombers. We admire their commitment, but doubt their humanity.

I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing. I like to think its all just a big marketing ruse and like his friends say he actually is a swell guy that lies in his own barf occasionally.

What say you? (2500 words minimum please. After all you started it and I think it deserves more than a few two sentence statements to get to the bottom of it)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

That is true, I guess I'll go sit on the other side of the room with all my new, guided up Everest, buddies!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Freakin lol.. see what I mean..

Not only are there almost no real rules.. most of the "rules" folks like to make up and impose on others are not about "purity" they are about making themselves sound better than someone else...

at least to themselves.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Interesting to read what the Crossfit community has to say about MT.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=42463

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Is mary jane, coffee, and donuts a performance enhancing substance?

Dunno, I just call that "breakfast".

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

Like Twight ever learned to hold his tongue? Riiiiiiight.....
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Bruce fair enough.

"So you know him obviously. Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick completely lacking in empathy, nuance and a reasonable grasp of ambiguity? We all get his drift with high ideals but you could pretty much say the same for the Taliban suicide bombers. We admire their commitment, but doubt their humanity.

I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing. I like to think its all just a big marketing ruse and like his friends say he actually is a swell guy that lies in his own barf occasionally."

I don't know Mark well. And I hestitate to speak for him let alone about him. BWTF. Couple of observations. I knew of Mark long before I met him. Though he was an arrogant prick who had no f*#king clue what he was talking about most of the time and didn't care he was eating rats in some wet basement apartment in Seattle. We are both from the NW but there was little cross cultral exchange then or now between the east and west sides of the state.

But the kid could write...still can. I was even more annoyed when he started playing in my old stomping grounds and claiming big deeds. But had to tip my hat. They actually were pretty good deeds. May be not as good as he claimed IMO. But he was so annoying it was hard to see the real climbing. In retrospect they were really good climbs. And no way for me to see the real person even back not knowing him, between the reality and the writing. Hard enough now.

I actually met Mark later when I was out of climbing trying to make my business grow. He wrote about it several times in national publications and my business grew. I owe him for that. I also got to see him as a student and as a competitor in a very competitive environment. I didn't think he would flourish there. Grass eaters are quickly gone in that arena. And I really didn't think Mark fit in. Obviously he has. May be more than I. And I could hold my own there.

My take on his writing? Because it is so far from what any normal human being could actually be in person, is why it is so good.

"I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing."

I'm generally on the puke side. But some of his stuff is really good, I think. His fast and light climbing book for one. This commentary for another.

Climbing? Hard to ignore his climbs in the Alps. I tend to dismiss things like that, the climbs. But soloing and soloing big alpine faces is another game entirely. Those that have done it know that. No BS tolerated there. I have done a couple. Mark has done a BIG bunch. What ever else he has done, Twight can actually climb.

Donini never hesitates to dig Mark about his rock climbing ability here. When Donini was climbing the first Valley 5.12s back in the early '70s, Twight was in still in grade school. When I did the second ascent and the first "speed" ascent of Slipstream in a short day Mark had yet to start climbing. Point is who gives a sh#t...we all can climb or could at one time. That either of them is still alive is their best accomplishment imo.

Point to all that is WTF are people giving Twight sh#t for? His style? Sure as hell shouldn't be his climbing. Ditching gear on the CZD? How many others have gone that deep in the mountains and pulled it off? (as in lived) Jello and Donini for sure. Grown ups and the kid would be my observation off hand. Both had years of serious alpinism behind them before Twight ever uncoiled a rope. That he was able to tag along at all early on with punk rock blaring from the head phones is pretty amazing if you think back on Jello's and Mark's comments of their own seperate realities. Different perspectives obviously and rightfully so. But not that many others from the US for sure that had played the game at that standard. Few even now.

We are talking 13 years since Twight has climbed anything. Put that into perspective.

Things have changed and much of my observations are from BITD on all of this, climbs, climbers and their accomplishmets. But hard to put it all into perspective until some time and distance has passed. It has been 13 years since the triplettes were on the CZD. Depends on how you define style but no one has done it faster or lighter to date afaik. Not a bad legacy to leave behind as to what might be possible.

I've always thought Mark intentionally painted an incredibly austere picture of himself in public compared to the reality. I'd hate to have to actually live up to that picture. I suspect Mark aint all that happy about it either. But my impression from talking with his partners over the years is Twight is fully capable of living up to his hype in the mountains. But isn't that the brilliance of Mark's writing? He is bigger than life in his writing. From what I have seen as a person he is no better or worse than any of the rest of us. A total d#@&%e bag some days and a great guy on others. Sound familiar?

But I have always found him to be honorable. Which means a lot more to me than how hard anyone climbs. Not a lot of climbers I would actually call honorable. When I wasn't climbing he gently encouraged me to get back out. It was nice and good timing on his part. I'm better for it. And I have never climbed with the guy. I can tell you for sure I have seen few if any that have stayed in the physical shape he has. That aint by accident. Cross fit? Can't do a pull up? Unless Twight was injured..any one that tells you Twight couldn't do a pull up, I guarantee you is full of sh#t. Bank it.

Training/the book/ and other "stolen" endurance and gear shit/rumors suggestions/accusations. Twight was just smart enough to adapt it to his own needs and put a label on it. Sucks to be you if you came up with it and didn't know how to use it. And I'd be pissed if they were my ideas. But then I haven't seen anything that wasn't credited to the original authors where appropriate. You can certainly decide what's appropriate and if you think some thing was missed.

Gym Jones? Elitist sure. Same reason you don't climb with gummbies if you are serious about leading 5.12. You climb with SERIOUS people with the same goals. No brainier. My guess is Gym Jones was started to better Mark's personal goals, not the paying public. If it survives, great idea. Marketing? We all have to make a living. Twight is good at it but from what I have seen personally in the past 2 decades he is way more into the doing than he ever was into the marketing hype. Take a look at the kids he sponsors and employees at the Gym. Take a look at the climbers he sponsored or just supported at Grivel NA. Twight has given back his share and more to the community. More than chump change and directly out of his pocket. Few here can say that. Damn few. I sure can't and I try.

"Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick"

Oh, that I think he believes...but then, so do/am I!
No apologies there, fook'um ;)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Nice post man.


I would defend him to anyone that said he didn't knock down some bad ass stuff. So true.

It's just that my dad was bad ass too, and he never looked down or talked down on anyone in his life. He carried a quiet power. I've never been able to live up to it my-own-self.

So I just have never had much patience for those who talk high and mighty, even if they can knock it down with the best of them. Maybe I just read him wrong. If so, my apologies to everyone involved.

My opinion has nothing at all to do with O2 or style by the way.
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