and I bet you thought Twight was dead????


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Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:56am PT
Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

An offer was made. He declined.

Twight did gnar, no-doubt. But he's fair game when he spiels mightily about how weak others are for not disclosing how they did O2 on Everest while at the same time failing to mention how his crew was sucking O's when things got tough.

I put it to you that your own discourse is, in your own words "weak".

MFT didn't need to climb Everest with oxygen to know if that's not the right style for him. But he ought STFU with the self-promotion if he did use O's himself.

In all, O2 is not a big deal if one is truthful. 'Climving' using ladders though.....f'me. Dumping stuff with no intention to come back for it, well...what say you since you have a penchant for defining 'weak'?

And recall, you and MFT have invited attention to the guy's words and actions here.

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 04:59am PT
Sure it was....must have been the oranges.
Attacking the messenger only means you have lost the argument.

Some how you missed it was a short commentary on a specific subject not Twight's confession on Oprah. Roy got it, Coz got it and even Donini got it.

As I said...weak.

Jan 31, 2013 - 05:12am PT
donini wrote:
It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.

If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.

As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.

Nicely written as well as the entire post.

I am curious as to where you, personally, draw the line?

Twight's article and point of view are interesting, but some parts read a little to much like "my form of purity is the only form of purity".

You mention climbing style once one starts the actual climbing. Twight, however, talks about sherpas and porters. Why not take it a step further? Did he take a plane to the Himalaya/Alaska/etc.? Use some sort of motorized vehicle to reach a starting point?

As I mentioned earlier, take Twight's article to its logical end point, and Goran Kropp is the only person who has a "pure" ascent of Everest. Of course even he benefited from the equipment / infrastructure already available.

We all seem to know what IS and what IS NOT, both far-ends of the spectrum are clear, it's the gray area that everyone argues about, and often times the differences in one's approach are so subtle that the argument amounts to pissing on one another in an attempt to feel superior (not talking about you donini, getting general here) to the other. I find this especially true in Himalayan climbing (for example, what about using oxygen to sleep well, but not while you are actually doing the ascending of Everest?).

On a side note, donini, I have a few friends who take the same approach as you with regard to 7000 meter peaks; the want to climb technical new routes on often unclimbed peaks and not have to deal with the oxygen logistics, etc., that comes with 8000m endeavors.

Jan 31, 2013 - 05:16am PT
Tarbuster wrote:
That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Those neophytes would not be able to "bag these trophies" if there were not enablers (read guides and guiding outfits). Some of these guides are or have been individuals in the climbing community that many admire for their accomplishments and abilities.

I personally have no problem with guided groups and bringing a non-experienced climber to the summit of whatever peak, even Everest.

What I do have a problem with is the garbage left (feces, O2 bottles or otherwise). Kudos to people like Conrad Anker et al who have made efforts to clean up Everest.

Jan 31, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

Anyway I like tw#t not Twight.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

That is true, I guess I'll go sit on the other side of the room with all my new, guided up Everest, buddies!

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Freakin lol.. see what I mean..

Not only are there almost no real rules.. most of the "rules" folks like to make up and impose on others are not about "purity" they are about making themselves sound better than someone else...

at least to themselves.

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Interesting to read what the Crossfit community has to say about MT.


Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Is mary jane, coffee, and donuts a performance enhancing substance?

Dunno, I just call that "breakfast".


Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

Like Twight ever learned to hold his tongue? Riiiiiiight.....

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Nice post man.

I would defend him to anyone that said he didn't knock down some bad ass stuff. So true.

It's just that my dad was bad ass too, and he never looked down or talked down on anyone in his life. He carried a quiet power. I've never been able to live up to it my-own-self.

So I just have never had much patience for those who talk high and mighty, even if they can knock it down with the best of them. Maybe I just read him wrong. If so, my apologies to everyone involved.

My opinion has nothing at all to do with O2 or style by the way.

Social climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
People and personalities are just different. Doesn't make it bad or good imo just different. Twight is hard to seperate from his writing if you don't know him well. And I don't. Likely impossible if you haven't met him.

I'm good with that.

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Well said survival.

I still say it's interesting to contrast folks impression of Twight versus Alex Lowe.

Hard to get down on a guy who was so clearly badass but who's most famous quote is "the best climber is the one having the most fun".

Disingenous?.. in a way perhaps but .. in another I'm sure he meant it.

I suppose that's why people never seem to have anything bad to say about Alex Lowe. Even when he was alive.

Kinda dumb getting all serious about this stuff and Twight and whatever.. But it's fun BSing here on the Taco when I can't get out and climb today.

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
But it's fun BSing here on the Taco when I can't get out and climb today.

heh heh, ME TOO!

That's about all it amounts to, or is good for, in my case....
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Well, a certain amount of dicksizing is inevitable in any group like this ...

Mountain climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
RDB: interesting post.

i can only speak for myself, but what follows is in response to your question: "...WTF are people giving Twight sh#t for?"

in general the issue is not his actual climbing nor his actual persona. not knowing him, itís completely irrelevant what i think regarding those, but just so that what follows is clear, imo, he was obviously a badass climber, and heís very likely an honorable person irl.

my issue is simple: it's the hyperbolic representation he makes of his climbing and the self-righteous judgement that he spews from that position.

if you read what he's written about himself (go ahead and click his wiki links before and after his first edit as one very representative example) you'd think he made a giant leap for climbing kind. sorry, just because he's a badass doesn't make him a climbing jesus. from my perspective, the climbing contribution that he made was not really that unprecedented. he helped consolidate and publicize an evolution within alpinism and yes some of it was relatively unprecedented for a north american climber. but on a world wide stage Ö i'm not convinced that it was as revolutionary as some of his writing makes it sound. maybe reality bath, but that is only due to a dead end willingness to expose himself to completely random risk.

now when a person couples a seemingly overinflated view of their historical position with a willingness to diss other climbers by applying their own personal tastes to publicly judge... well... let's put it this way: they're going to reap what they sow.

so that's the main issue for me. if he wants to imply a place for himself in the climbing pantheon, that's fine. who knows, maybe history will prove my current opinion wrong. but, if he wants to then use that position to diss other climbers: well his logic better be real f*#king good, and his actions better be real f*#king consistent with his message. for the reasons, i and others have mentioned, imo, twight fails often on both counts.

the piece that you originally linked to for example. there are very important issues surrounding using o's and sherpas. here's a list of a few off the top of my head:
1. crowding due to increased accessability is an issue (this is becoming an issue the world over, regardless of whether o's are used. for ex. even this climbing season on cerro torre).
2. if discarded bottles and trash aren't cleaned up, thatís an issue.
3. guides placing fixed protection in order to make the life of client escorting easier and therefore changing the experience for everyone else (currently, a significant issue in the canadian rockies).
4. hell, even the fact that most of the world has no clue what real climbing is and so they fall into thinking that someone who has climbed everest with o's and sherpas has somehow done something important, noteworthy or worthy of respect.

all of the above, yeah, let's debate any of those.

but equating someone using o's with lance armstrong, or someone lieing on a resume?


the logic is a. transparently weak/hyperbolic and b. smacks of bringing non-localized rules to climbing (the irony of who the proponent for this is, just kills me).

i may have no personal interest in ever breathing out of a bottle of oxygen in order to climb. i may think queuing up on everest is the most moronic thing i've ever seen. i may even think that there is a place for limiting the use of o's to certain mountains or routes due to crowding. but a carte blanche equation between the use of o's and cheating?

nah, man, that equation is an insult to real cheaters everywhere.

but i'll give him this: he's one hell of a marketer and provocateur. look we're already 150 posts into a climbing topic and we're actually still discussing the original topic. in that regard kudos, mft, kudos.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:36pm PT

Point # 3 is old hat. Canadian climbers on both sides of the mountains as money fence have always had a good back and forth with their 9 to 5 BFF's about what's appropriate behavior in public...

Mountain climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:57pm PT

fair enough. all four of those are relatively perennial issues. but you're right with regards to fixed protection in the canadian rockies, and by guides especially, i should have prefaced it with "as always" rather than "currently". haha.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
No one knows Bruce but the reflex of going home on time from a person's job is always open to expedience.

Mountain climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:53pm PT

here's a thread from gravsports-ice discussing parks canada's recentish retrobolting on the east ridge of mt. temple.

my comment probably has as much to do with the statement "all politics are local" as anything. ie. i was probably just thinking about it because i've run into it a few times of late. i climbed the east ridge ten or so years ago and while i sympathize with the parks rationale, i'm also saddened that others won't get to experience the wonderful joys of being lost in the black towers for themselves. haha.

and while it was probably retrobolted quite a while ago, i was just on the kain route on mt. louis this summer. here again i understand the rationale: that thing is climbed almost continuosly in good weather in the summer. still there is something sad about climbing a route that was put up in 1916 and having bolted belay anchors the whole way (or more correctly once it meets up with the gmoser route) and a perren crack sprouting a large number of bolts.

again, i don't know what the solutions are, and maybe there are none. it just seems like these are the questions that are worth discussing. ultimately they are questions of history, of climbing culture, and of climbing's future.

and as with all questions of culture there are nuances and multiple valid viewpoints. a black and white fundamentalist approach just seems, to me, so ... juvenile.
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