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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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Coz,
Go fetch me a beer and then come back and rub my feet, won't you darling?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 30, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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Use all of the supplemental oxygen you want, but I wouldn't be calling Jim "old" ... he might be sensitive to that fact!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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twight's climbing was important. unfortunately, most folks know his writing or promotional stuff or bad taste in music. his work there is a lot less interesting. tony robbins meets skinny puppy.
this article isn't especially strong. the debate over oz is a bit like the debate over chalk. the main difference is that most of us can carry our own chalk rather than hiring 3rd world locals to drag it around for us at risk of life and limb.
i'd be surprised if some of the folks involved in the various unofficial timed events in the alps aren't blood doping. obvious easy thing to do, when one has a good staging area, and comparatively safe.
i really don't care about folks climbing at altitude using the various blood thinners from aspirin on up. that bit of the piece strikes me as really marginal. what about folks using pepto-bismol or rolaids to deal with the gi problems common on expeditions and at altitude? or just getting their shots? at some point it becomes ridiculous.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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Regardless the O2 rule.
The Omnibus and ST approved and adopted Climbers Code Of Conduct Page 1127 Paragraph 13 section 7-A clearly states the use of a supplemental Donini on any climbing ascent is considered out of bounds and disqualifies the validity of said ascent due to the use of way to much BADASS, Please see appendix chart 157a regarding the validity of Descents when using a Donini.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jan 30, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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O2 used to summit Everest is doping. Period. It is absolutely no different than the cyclist who dopes to achieve better performance. Is it cheating? It depends on the rules by which you play your game. The word "rules" might, for want of a better word, be substituted by the word style. I would think it better style to summit without O2. In our culture, style, or at least the appearance of style to the uninitiated, is something one can buy given the desire and requisite long green(especially when it comes to the big "E"). Thus the debate, however,I understand exactly what Twight is digging at.
"I think I know what your problem is......"
TY
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cowpoke
climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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the debate over oz is a bit like the debate over chalk.
That argument evokes an interesting thought experiment. If we awoke tomorrow to a world void of chalk and with no means to carry O2 in a tank, would we see a greater percentage decrease in: (1) the number of ascents on 8000m peaks or (2) the number of jaw-dropping, cutting-edge rock climbs?
I gotta go with door number 1 on that one, but would be interested to know the predictions of those who have, in fact, played in both (or at least one) of those adventure lands.
PS the debate over oz was resolved by Dorothy (unless you are a fan of Wicked).
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:18am PT
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O2 used to summit Everest is doping. Period. It is absolutely no different than the cyclist who dopes to achieve better performance. Is it cheating? It depends on the rules by which you play your game.
You are spot-on reasoned. O2 is doping, though not inherently cheating. It only becomes cheating if you fail to honestly disclose the extent to which you used supplemental oxygen during any period between leaving basecamp for the summit and your return.
I will note here that Twight's team had used O2 during Everest expeditions - something he has previously mentioned though failed to mention in his most recent discussion piece when he wrote: "And if the audience isn't well-informed enough to ask about the means the speaker lets the omission slide, allowing them to think better of him. A decade and more ago I cared deeply about the way we climbed more than whether we were successful."
Wonder if he used the likes of Diamox as well?
Be great if Twight also stated clearly whether he followed in the sweet posthole tracks of others. Comparing with his cycling, wonder what Twight thinks of fellow cyclists in a race breakaway who sit in the draught and don't take turns up the front, only to pull ahead at the sprint and never qualify credit to the others.
Using a ladder any time from the moment you left basecamp for the summit and during the descent is however always to be deemed cheating. With or without supplemental oxygen.
And never blame the weather if you don't get-up. Dynamic mountain conditions are central to the challenge. You're either strong enough, or YOU weren't.
Keep it real, and the 'rules' become easy to live a life by. Project that approach into other parts of life, and nobody worth knowing will ever judge you harshly if you happen to never end up climbing Everest.
Those clients from the Everest "Beyond the Limit" mock-umentary that have since self-promoted themselves as "Mountaineer".
The by-line ought read the simple truth - I use supplemental oxygen to get to and down from the summit. Used fixed ropes that others were paid money to fix up and down the route. I used ladders that others had fixed in place, though only to make it easier to move through the most technical sections along the selected route. I was accompanied by Sherpa Guides much of the way; deep down, I know they were central to what I was able to undertake.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E
WORD
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Can we imagine any relative non-climber whose toted their bad selves using whatever means to the top of Everest, then having any success whatsoever trying to discuss the disclaimers with their complete non-climber workmates over the watercooler? All for the sake of honest reportage? Even with the best of intentions it would fall flat.
This taken in stride with the fact that we can't even decide/agree on it here?
Ha ha.
It's just so out of this world for the regular person to comprehend style and ethical prerogatives in rockclimbing nevermind the big mountains. And to them, they'd be right to tell their would-be work hero who's gotten to the top to forget all that disclaimer stuff because the experience is still so deep compared to walking around on the street, hailing a cab, riding a bike, hiking, drinking in bars, getting laid, changing diapers, or studying for an exam.
Not that that should dissuade us from the idea that aspirants need to be educated about these things. Or that these dialogues don't serve a purpose other than flapping our gums.
Cowpoke: I guess I'd go with oxygen being more critical than chalk, relative to their historical outcomes. Good one!
Climbski2: on the other hand, even a grade schooler would just nod up and down at this brilliant ditty which you laid out for us! They'd comprehend it in a flash! Ha ha.
The Omnibus and ST approved and adopted Climbers Code Of Conduct Page 1127 Paragraph 13 section 7-A clearly states the use of a supplemental Donini on any climbing ascent is considered out of bounds and disqualifies the validity of said ascent due to the use of way to much BADASS, Please see appendix chart 157a regarding the validity of Descents when using a Donini.
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E
I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).
There are other "critics" come advocates for mountain stewardship who would willingly do the same when next in the neighbourhood.
To note, MFT has been back to such areas in later years, and made no noteworthy attempt to redeem himself by retrieving the stuff he dumped. His mate Steve House should give him a kick in the butt, Steve followed-up his promise to attempt to retrieve gear he'd left on Makalu.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:06am PT
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I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).
I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:07am PT
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Can of Worms.
edit:I deemed it unkind. Nosir. I would rather trend the other way.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:17am PT
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Skully: go put your post back on my thread please!
No response too whacked, too short, or too deep. Werd.
[edit] okay dude, yer golden.
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:19am PT
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I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.
U.S. dollars mean much-little these days. So I need to appreciate your motivations - the point you wish to make is....?
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:40am PT
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What about using 02 scuba diving is that cheating?
Or how about using 02 period, perhaps Twight holds his breath?
02 is intrinsic to scuba diving. It would be cheating the truth to use it for Free Diving however. Though, it is unlikely that anyone would ever judge Twight unfairly if he never free dived.
Twight would be cheating the truth however if he proclaimed a standard and wanted recognition for his free diving ethics yet failed to 'in the same proverbial breath' mention the use of scuba air when things got difficult.
Ever told someone you climbed an 8,000 peak Coz? If so, were they impressed? And did you in the same breath tell them about whether you did or didn't use the ladders to bypass technical sections along the selected route?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 03:17am PT
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Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.
What the f*#k is wrong with you guys? You sound like a bunch of 12 year school girls not climbers. Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.
And we all know damn few of you would...being polite and all.
weak.....
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 03:56am PT
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Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.
An offer was made. He declined.
Twight did gnar, no-doubt. But he's fair game when he spiels mightily about how weak others are for not disclosing how they did O2 on Everest while at the same time failing to mention how his crew was sucking O's when things got tough.
I put it to you that your own discourse is, in your own words "weak".
MFT didn't need to climb Everest with oxygen to know if that's not the right style for him. But he ought STFU with the self-promotion if he did use O's himself.
In all, O2 is not a big deal if one is truthful. 'Climving' using ladders though.....f'me. Dumping stuff with no intention to come back for it, well...what say you since you have a penchant for defining 'weak'?
And recall, you and MFT have invited attention to the guy's words and actions here.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 04:59am PT
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Sure it was....must have been the oranges.
Attacking the messenger only means you have lost the argument.
Some how you missed it was a short commentary on a specific subject not Twight's confession on Oprah. Roy got it, Coz got it and even Donini got it.
As I said...weak.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:12am PT
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donini wrote:
It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.
If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.
As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.
Nicely written as well as the entire post.
I am curious as to where you, personally, draw the line?
Twight's article and point of view are interesting, but some parts read a little to much like "my form of purity is the only form of purity".
You mention climbing style once one starts the actual climbing. Twight, however, talks about sherpas and porters. Why not take it a step further? Did he take a plane to the Himalaya/Alaska/etc.? Use some sort of motorized vehicle to reach a starting point?
As I mentioned earlier, take Twight's article to its logical end point, and Goran Kropp is the only person who has a "pure" ascent of Everest. Of course even he benefited from the equipment / infrastructure already available.
We all seem to know what IS and what IS NOT, both far-ends of the spectrum are clear, it's the gray area that everyone argues about, and often times the differences in one's approach are so subtle that the argument amounts to pissing on one another in an attempt to feel superior (not talking about you donini, getting general here) to the other. I find this especially true in Himalayan climbing (for example, what about using oxygen to sleep well, but not while you are actually doing the ascending of Everest?).
On a side note, donini, I have a few friends who take the same approach as you with regard to 7000 meter peaks; the want to climb technical new routes on often unclimbed peaks and not have to deal with the oxygen logistics, etc., that comes with 8000m endeavors.
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Degaine
climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:16am PT
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Tarbuster wrote:
That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.
Those neophytes would not be able to "bag these trophies" if there were not enablers (read guides and guiding outfits). Some of these guides are or have been individuals in the climbing community that many admire for their accomplishments and abilities.
I personally have no problem with guided groups and bringing a non-experienced climber to the summit of whatever peak, even Everest.
What I do have a problem with is the garbage left (feces, O2 bottles or otherwise). Kudos to people like Conrad Anker et al who have made efforts to clean up Everest.
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