and I bet you thought Twight was dead????

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Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Couldn't agree more, if you read my story in Largo's last book, Yosemite Climbers or some such, I express the madness behind this mind set.

Basically that's what every thread about oxygen, Everest, people on Half Dome etc etc comes down to.

'Climbing is anarchy.' :)




....but we still can talk sh#t on the internetz!


*exits room, time to work*

PS: Would love to read about what you wrote in that book. Sounds interesting. There are some climbs that are very impressive for the era, and that was one of them IMO.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
If a couple dozen people can free climb the nose, out of tens of thousands that aided it, does this make the Nose a free route now? We're all supposed to go up there and spend months hangdoging the 5.13 pitches? This is what the Nose is all about now?

At the other end of the spectrum, should Everest have thousands of meters of fixed lines, fixed ladders, with huge crowds of gumbies getting guided up? If we make the routes accessible to everyone, then what you get is the half dome cables route.

I guess my perspective would be selfish - keep the gumbies from overcrowding the route, but don't make me risk my life to do it in your style, that's too extreme for me. That's not really a middle ground though, is it.

Could clarify all this by making hard and fast rules. No O2. No haulbags - climb it in a day or get the hell off the Nose. Seems like a bad idea to me. I'd say, whatever most *climbers* can do (not guided tourists), or are trying to do, is the accepted way to do the route. Plus the ethic of minimizing fixed gear whenever possible is something that will keep the sport from drifting into mediocrity.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
Patrick Sawyer...Exactly! But the use of Jet Ski's ironically has led to more and more big wave riders going back to trying to paddle into bigger waves. Much like hang dogging allowed people to experience and gain more knowledge of what is physically possible, the Jet Ski has allowed surfers to experience what it's like to ride monsters and now they have the experience to go back and try to paddle in, knowing what to expect.

I think, to go back to the OP, is to ask "What is Cheating"? Climbing (surfing, diving, flying etc.) are NOT innately human. We are not lizards. We use technology to allow ourselves to experience what we otherwise are not capable of. Hopefully, we use technology (a la Honnold, Messner) to get us closer to what we are naturally capable of but if we use any form of technology to go where we couldn't otherwise are we not "cheating" and therefore are not ALL of us cheating? And if not, does being "honest" preclude us from being cheaters? Did Twight's example of the man climbing Everest using siege tactics and O2 think he was a cheater? Would Coz think so if he climbed Everest using O2?

When game changers like Honnold and Messner change the game and that change is accepted by the players at large, is not anything short of that style, under Twight's argument, "cheating? Honnold said in his interview that climbing that route on the Sentinel wasn't hard and that he could down climb it if he had to. So now if I climb the same route using equipment and techniques used by 99.9 percent of the community, am I cheating? What is cheating/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
So now if I climb the same route using equipment and techniques used by 99.9 percent of the community, am I cheating? What is cheating?


Cheating is breaking rules you agreed to compete by. Or lying about how you did something.

The rules themselves are arbitrary and up to the participants.

In climbing we compete mainly or usually with ourselves. Although this thread does show there is certainly a competitive group nature to the sport in various degree's and individuals. Thus why being honest about what you did helps each person define where they measure up .. to whatever degree that matters to them or others.

Some folks do cheat themselves. I have and I suppose most of us have at times. Living up to your own dreams and expectations is serious business.

What cheating yourself is?? well that's up to you to figure out.

I'm pretty damn sure it isn't about letting other folks force their own rules for you.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
I have cheated. On school exams (not much though), my CV/resume has one or two embellishments (truths, but still embellishments), and I have pulled on gear.

"Did you lead that free?"

"Sort of, but I pulled on some gear. But hey, I am not French, I just lived and climbed there."

wstmrnclmr

The only surfer I have met that was in the water as the same time as a great white (he presumes, but he is definite it was a shark of some sort, and big), was when he was in Bodega Bay. He said the he was scared shitless and added that he tried his best to paddle as fast and quietly to shore. He lived to tell the tale.

And I get your point about the big wave guys using ski jets to tow them.

What is cheating? Is it truth? Semantics? Bullsh#t?
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Roy,

Sorry to hear about ur pain! I'm facing a artificial ankle.

I quit everything, booze, smoke etc. eat right and try to train through the pain. I could hardly walk up stairs but after a month of power hikes I'm climbing again.

Anyway, hope u feel better your voice on this thread is always refreshing and comes with real street creds, hopefully u can find a way to stay.


Sent from my I Phone.


wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
climbski2...dead on! You nailed it out of the box way back when you said "honesty is the only real rule" and now refined it to only being honest to one's self. Yep. Best I can do anyway.

And Patrick...Ya man! I have been on the seen for two shark attacks to friends. Same area. Objective danger keeps us all honest and certainly trivializes these debates....
bjj

climber
beyond the sun
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
I don't know much about Mark the person, only that his Gym Jones training center is one of the most sought after "private" gyms around. When I lived in SLC, a number of the top guys I did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with got the invite to go there for their strength and conditioning needs. I know several of the faces in his gallery very well, and they all went on to new levels of greatness in that sport as a result.

I have trained with his wife several times, and even taught her a thing or two when she came to the class I was instructing once long ago (I was an assistant instructor).

If I was still living there, I would for sure seek out an invite to train there (to help my climbing, not my BJJ as I had to retire from that sport due to injury).

I met him a couple of times, but never let on that I was a climber who was pretty familiar with his resume. Always seemed decent enough. But, there's the public persona people present to strangers, and the "real" person beneath. Still, I tend to withold judgment without any personal, first hand experience.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Coz,

This is almost an off-line discussion between you and me at this point. I will say that the way you enter these conversations is sometimes a bit like a bull in a china shop and I'm not always all that clear where you're coming from with the stuff you bring. This can make it difficult for me to respond, sorry.

For the sake of communication, clarity, and fun, I'll try to address or clarify what I think you were responding to in what Jim, others, and I have said.

I don't get my panties all in a bunch over bottled oxygen per se. You are correct; I've never been even close to needing it. I donít play the big mountain game. One of the broader issues which we are discussing as I see it, besides what Mark Twight's ego incites in people (ie. how he gets their hackles up in general, which is a separate or sub topic really), is the concept of the masses losing sight, or perhaps never understanding to begin with, what a minimalist approach is all about and why seasoned alpinist's adhere to it. And why everyone who plays should at least understand it and try to incorporate some of it in their approach to their pursuits: to even go so far as to limit or augment their goals accordingly.

That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Chest beating over style in the matter involves a very broad spectrum. Exactly where O2 should come into play in that spectrum is something I wouldn't try to pin down, to champion or defend. Not enough/any experience with it.

Be well!
Thanks,
Roy
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Off topic

And Patrick...Ya man! I have been on the seen for two shark attacks to friends. Same area. Objective danger keeps us all honest and certainly trivializes these debates....

When you say same area, do you mean Bodega Bay?

Doesn't matter if it is Bodega Bay, Bolinas Bay, Monterey Bay whatever, that stretch all the way up to the Eel River and down to San Luis Obispo is only 60-100 miles or so from the Farallones, one of the largest great white breeding grounds in the north Pacific.

And yet, not that many attacks over the years. People cheating death?

If so, that kind of cheating I can take.

I was always freaked surfing in Monterey Bay when even some seaweed would brush up against me. "What was that?"

EDIT

the word I always got was, do not surf near the mouths of rivers. They attract seals and sea lions looking for food/fish coming down the river, and of course these pinipeds are yummy for great whites. But, apparently, research (and I saw a video) shows that the orcas/killer whales love hanging around the Farallones because they have a taste for shark liver.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/shark-attack-experiment-live/videos/killer-whale-vs-jaws/

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/shark-attack-experiment-live/videos/how-whales-eat-sharks1/

And an adult orca can easily dispatch an adult great white.

Now back to cheating in climbing.

Sorry for the thread drift folks.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Thread drift cleanses the palate!
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Patrick...Could be thread drift and yet could be parallel discussion. The attacks were in the same area i.e. the so called "Red Triangle" which may also be much like the so called "death zone" at high altitude which one of the details (0two)in regards to cheating has centered on. One of the attacks was off Stinson Beach and the other at the mouth of Drakes Estero. Both men lived. It is analogues to the discussion in that a surfer difinitely is performing a very risky adventure in a very honest/good style way when entering the Red Triangle. Minimal gear and as dangerous these days as any objective danger in Mountaineering. Note that Scott Anderson, THE number 1 authority in IMO has tagged OVER 70!!! Great White's off the tip of Point Reyes (Pierce Point)alone! I always thought there might be like 10.....

Tar and Coz...Much like the counterpoint in great classical music, both your insights, though delivered differently, are of immense value to any discussion.
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
coz, your hardcore alphadog style of communicating is hysterical!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
coz, your hardcore alphadog style of communicating is hysterical!

I bet he actually types
Sent from my I Phone.
!! lol



Sent from my I Phone typed by my slave.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Well,

All I can say is I'm better than I use to be... I'm trying to be nice : }

I just can't stand guys going on about stuff they know nothing about. IE talking smack about O2 on 8000 meter peaks when they have never climb an 8000 meter peak.

Or soloing the Steck/Salathe when they have never soloed the S/S

Or going on about bolted 13 aretes in Moab when they can't climb 13 aretes in Moab.

Or going on about state of the art run out face climbs, when they can't climb state of the art run out face climbs.

But, I loved being called a moron when I question them about their lack of experience or ability.

Yes Hank, I'm mostly being funny, but don't tell that to some of the ego's around here, because I roll in my recliner every-time they get all flustered.

EDIT, Its fine to have an opinion about things you know nothing about, but just point out the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.



Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Okay, more thread drift, but then, the inherent dangers of messing with nature, be it mountains or sea.

We used to play with the (young adults and adolescents) sea lions at the Point Reyes (main) beach, just be careful of their teeth, sharper than a dogs, but they could be playful and friendly, just beware of a change in attitude. So no wonder the white pointers like cruising those waters. Yummy, a fat seal/sea lion, yeck a skinny human being (though in my case at present, I could be seen as a walrus).

Some years back, wasn't there a gal off the marina at Santa Barbara/San Luis Obispo ??? who was swiming with seals and suddenly they all then split the scene and she was nailed by a white pointer (as the Aussies call them).

Poor woman, but sort of a Darwin's award sort of thing, swimming in a black wet suit with seals in shark territory, perhaps not the best idea. She did not cheat death, apparently.

Again, I have to ask, what is cheating? If I lead a climb but for whatever reason pulled on some gear, which I have before, I'd admit to it. And hope that I can go back and lead the climb free. I am not ashamed to admit I pulled on gear at times. Cheating? Again, what is the definition?

Now if I said I led those climbs totally fee, I'd be lying to myself. (Wouldn't be the first time. I lie to myself all the time, mostly about winning the lottery)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Coz, as one of the members here I appreciate your opinions/humor. And I hope you (and others) continue stating your opinions, even if they make you appear like a dick to some. One has opinions and there is nothing wrong with honesty. It would be a lame forum if you had a bunch of people who did not want to express what they believe in.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Well Coz,
Nice to have a heart so pure. Your treatise, however, is open to debate. So you can't comment on climbing an 8000 meter peak without oxygen unless you have done it. Does that then mean you can't comment on Armstrong doping during the Tour de France unless you have done it?
Concerning comments on using O2 on 8000 meter peaks or soloing the SS. I have commented on both, as you well know, because you have called me out on both. While i don't think you need to have done those things to comment intelligently on them, i will point out that i have bonafides in both areas.
No Coz, i haven't done an 8000 meter peak w/o oxygen....in fact, i haven't done an 8000 meter peak period.....and by design. I much prefer the physical and mental challenges of peaks 7000 meters and below that pose extreme technical challenges. Trust me Coz, climbing difficult terrain at 7000 meters is every bit as hard as negotiating moderate snow slopes a thousand meters higher. I think that my alpine record speaks for itself, and, given that, i believe my comments regarding climbing in the mountains are as valid as any.
Additionally, i have many friends and aquaintances who have kicked steps to the top of 8000
meter peaks sans oxygen and the literature on such endeavors is voluminous.
Now to free soling the SS. I commented on it and you, predictably, called me out on it when i said it had become almost routine. My comment was based on my knowledge of events....the fact that i hadn't done it personally is in no way germaine to the validity of my comments. I climbed the SS in the Fall of 2011 with longtime friend Greg Crouch. During that ascent we were passed by TWO other climbers who were free soloing, one of them Dean Potter. Perhaps that experience had something to do with my comments. Also, i have free soloed throughout my climbing career and feel that i know something about the subject.
I don't shoot from the hip when i comment about climbing matters. My opinions are mine, and mine alone, and many may not agree with them. But Coz, to constantly shoot down my opinions by questioning my bonafides has me puzzled. I hardly know you and can't think of anything i have done to you. I respect your climbing ability and record but am not enamored by your name calling. How about a truce old boy
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
I will say that the way you enter these conversations is sometimes a bit like a bull in a china shop and I'm not always all that clear where you're coming from with the stuff you bring.


Watch out Tar, next thing you know he'll be calling you "tough guy" and "buddy." That's when you know you've stepped over the line.

HA HA!!! You guys are all awesome. My opinion swings back and forth like a pendulum, but then I always liked swings....WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
I never mention you did I Jim, many people on this forum act the expert.

Glad you assumed so, I've been very complementary of your climbing and Military service, and have always tempered my words with respect and humor.

Maybe just maybe, you should take it down a notch, at the very lest you stopped the name calling, that's a start.

I have never heard of your accomplishments, probably owing to your modesty, I have no idea of anything you have climbed, besides the Latok attempt.

So, if your climbing speaks for itself, I'm not aware of it, perhaps a Jim D appreciation thread is in order.

EDIT, I'd love to hear your stories about your climbs.

Truce sure, I'm not much for hating.




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