Donini just quit too!!! Thanks T*R!!!

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jstan

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
Harvard Prof Says Neanderthal Clones Possible but Experts Doubt It
Visitors of the Museum for Prehistory in Eyzies-de-Tayac, France look at a Neanderthal man and child reconstruction

By SYDNEY LUPKIN
Jan. 22, 2013
A Harvard geneticist has raised eyebrows by declaring that scientists could make a Neanderthal clone baby if they had an "extremely adventurous female human" as a surrogate.

When geneticist George Church talked about cloning Neanderthals in his book and subsequent interview with Der Spiegel news weekly, it sounded like something out of Michael Crichton's "Jurassic Park" coming to life. But experts say that safety and ethical hang-ups mean the first Neanderthal birth in 30,000 years is probably fiction, too.

"I understand what George is saying. It's interesting. But I don't think it will ever happen," said Arthur Caplan, a bioethicist at the NYU Center for Bioethics. "It lurches too close to exploitation. It rubs up too closely as starting to turn into bringing somebody into existence just as an object of other people's interest."

Fragments of Neanderthal DNA have been found in fossils throughout in Europe, and Church said they could be put together to create an embryo for implanting into a human surrogate.

Ideally, he said, people would be able to learn from Neanderthals, which are humans' closest extinct predecessors, because their enlarged craniums hint at different thought processes from humans. He said Neanderthals' presence could also create more genetic diversity, but Caplan said it's unclear whether it would be possible for humans to breed with Neanderthals.

Also, Caplan said, creating a human-like being in a lab for study could be exploitative.

The theoretical Neanderthal family (because Church told Der Spiegel he doesn't think a lone Neanderthal would have a good sense of identity without a cohort) would live under extreme scrutiny even if they didn't have to live within the confines of a lab, Caplan said. He compared the re-creation of Neanderthals to Frankenstein, noting that the fictional Victor Frankenstein created his monster to prove that he could do it. But the monster struggled with his own identity and dignity much like a modern-day Neanderthal family would.

Caplan said there's also insufficient knowledge about whether Neanderthals would be too aggressive to flourish in society or whether they would die of an extreme unforeseen allergy. He compared the latter to the way Europeans accidentally killed the Native Americans by giving them small pox.

And, of course, the United Nations banned human cloning in 2005, although the guidance wasn't as binding as a treaty, Caplan said. Some states have banned the practice as well, but a few, including California, allow it for research purposes.

"The reasoning behind that is because human cloning, to many, seems to violate the way in which people are created," Caplan said. "It makes people nervous to make someone from an existing person. There's a repugnance factor about that."

Whether a Neanderthal counts as "human" is also debatable if states or local laws specify a ban on "human cloning."

Ethics aside, cloning a Neanderthal would be a safety issue, said Ron Crystal, a geneticist at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York City.

"Technically, putting together fragments of DNA is feasible," Crystal said. "Are we putting it together correctly? We know that one letter in the wrong place can be fatal."

One-letter deformities, called monogenic disorders, include cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, Fragile X syndrome, Huntington's disease, and thousands of other life-threatening problems, Crystal said.

Single-gene mistakes are possible when scientists are cloning an organism for which they have a model of completed DNA, Crystal said. But a Neanderthal clone would involve much more guesswork because scientists don't have any reference to tell them that they're about to make a fatal mistake.

"It's a problem for whether you're trying to put together a dinosaur or trying to put together a Neanderthal," Crystal said. "There's nothing to compare to. There's no gold standard."

Caplan added that it's possible many Neanderthal stillborns and Neanderthals born with extreme disabilities would precede a healthy Neanderthal baby.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 23, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
Someone quit an internet forum?

Oh, the humanity!!
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 23, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Locker-

I said I would essentially QUIT POSTING, but I can still lurk!

See ya at COR or Voo!

Rodger
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I plan on hanging out at the City with Donini & Rodger, too.
Sometimes coordinating through the Taco has been useful. But it's not necessary. Another in a growing quiver of options.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Apparently some people believe that every passing moment should be dedicated to spiritual, physical and moral betterment, that there is no time to "waste" on frivolities and foolishness - like gazing at fun bags. It reminds of the preposterous term, "gratuitous nudity." If you need to be told why this is the motto of a sad sac and a frumpy, constipated killjoy, there is little hope for you IMO

JL

Help!
Help!
Credit: Largo
. . .


Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Jan 23, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
I see myself hanging out with Doheny at Donini State beach or Donini at Doheny ...or Donini at Dohini...now I'm confused...

http://www.dohenystatebeach.org/

Isn't Donini, I mean Doheny, mentioned in a Beach Boy's song?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
Brokedown, why are you quitting posting? Gezzzz, we are a community....crazy and comprised of real, true individual's but we are campfire. Right?

This begins to take on the aspect of a losing high school football team. Now, we find out who is for real in those stands.

Largo, another good post and pic. :D

lynne
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
Donini is not quitting.
He's just going under cover with his Special Forces Group.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
donini
Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 3, 2009 - 10:08am PT

Does the term "deadhead" have anything to do with the lack of brain function?


donini
Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Aug 3, 2009 - 10:17am PT

I thought that "good head" referred to something else.


Man, what a drag I was just getting Jim back into music scene.

Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Donini is not quitting

It's spelled " Doheny"... Okay
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
I thought it was Donini-mee, DT.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#263979
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
^DT - I think you're getting confused with the little old lady from

Pasadonini.
Donald Thompson

Trad climber
Los Angeles,CA
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Doe -oooooooooo-HE- kneeeeeeeeeeeeeee

^DT - I think you're getting confused with the little old lady from

Nope,that was Jan and Doheny...I mean Jan and Deanohini...I mean Jan and Deany...

Get outta here...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
All those photos on the boob thread said "click to enlarge" I thought it meant the boobs, but after clicking I realized what it meant.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
Oh dawg Cozmicster you have outdone yourself.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Lynnie-

I've just decided to "lay low" for a while, and lurk. There's been just too much self-righteous spewing that attacks others personally for my tastes. And rather than attack friends and alienate people, I choose silence as an option. I still love the website and have too many friends here to abandon ship permenantly. See ya in Yos!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
This forum is a very special place and perhaps the most interesting protracted conversation in which I have had the honor to participate.

The main shared experience base is testing ourselves in the rock solid environment of challenging mountains, which submit to no BS.

However in some important ways it does not feel safe here. I often have to withhold things where I would really like to share and invite comment. When I can anticipate negative bullying that will drive out intelligent commentary, than I just bite my tongue.

I would just like to note again that those who persist here tend to be those who can rise above chronic disrespect, BS, bickering, and bullying.

That fact does not speak well for a number of contributors, both crude bigots and overly intelligent opinionated bullies.

I also think that we have a few people here who are not really much or anything in the way of being climbers, but more like agents controlling the conversation within authority-sanctioned versions of reality.

This is a climbers campfire discussion that should be safe for people to express all sorts of wild stories and speculations without overstimulating disrespectful bullies. At a real campfire we have the spacial dynamic aspect of being able to just walk away from disagreements, crude comments and bullying.

I suggest again that if the level of mutual respect rises and the level of bullying fades, we will entice in or back many of the people who are our climbing heroes and who we would love to hear contributing.

It is wonderful to participate with people like Donini, Largo, Jogill, Jstan, OldGuy, and such. But there are other very thoughtful people such as Royal, Layton, Jello, Croft, etc, who rarely venture into the conversation.

It is also disturbing to me that there are very interesting people here, who I don't have a clue of their real names. Make this place safe for open discussion and they won't have to hide behind weird avatars.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Dirty bunch of greezers Jesus!
What a sorry little lot!
I used to dream
That I would meet a prince
But God Almighty,
Have you seen what's happened since?
`Master of the house?'
Isn't worth me spit!
`Comforter, philosopher'
 and lifelong shit!
Cunning little brain
Regular Voltaire
Thinks he's quite a lover
But there's not much there
What a cruel trick of nature
Landed me with such a louse
God knows how I've lasted
Living with this bastard in the house
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
"You know our love will not fade away . . . no not fade away!"
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Messages 41 - 60 of total 66 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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