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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 18, 2013 - 12:25am PT
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Kinda seems like a bad idea but here is the story.
To prod him on a little several years ago I sorta told him he could have a supertopo account if he climbed Devil's Tower. In March we went over to the tower on a really nice day and he got past the crux second pitch and still wanted to go for it. We had been climbing with a friend of mine and his son up to that point, but they were not continuing to the top and Jack still wantd to continue He knew he had gotten through the most sustained part, but it also just be him and I from that point forward. He stuck with it but almost had a meltdown when pulling over the chockstone choked chimney on the fifth pitch. He then struggled to get past the jump traverse but did it with the help of a nice canadian couple to give him a much better belay past a very exposed traversing move that may be closer to 5.9 than the 5.5 they give the last rated pitch. We then did two more pitches to the top via the 3rd class chimney and finally summited. After we did the four long raps to get off he was Needless to say very tired, but very ecxited at the same time. Nothing had come up about ST since as I had thought that he had forgotten about it.
Since, that is, until last week. Then he hit me up for it.
So I start thinking there are pros and cons:
Pros:
He is a pretty good writer.
He is a voratious reader and has been reading tons of climbing lititure.
It would be an educational benifit to him as he would practice his typing.
He can spell better than me.
He would be more motivated to climb and get involved in the climbing culture.
Through using my account he has had conversations with John Gill.
Cons:
Could be investigated by social services.
He will continue to camp in the yard in January.
There seems to be some interesting dudes on here.
He would be more motivated to climb and get involved in the climbing culture.
He knows who Locker is.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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Does he like boobs? If so sign 'em up.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:32am PT
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He's Gunna Die!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:33am PT
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How old is he?
He will do it anyway if he wants.
Voraciously speaking, I would do the same.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:50am PT
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I can teach him how to make a good martini.
What's the worst that could happen?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:54am PT
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:02am PT
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Is he a Young Republican?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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This place is pretty rowdy, but pretty tame compared to the rest of the Internet...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:43am PT
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WTF, do you consider him a good pal, a comrade, a fellow degenerate like yourself, or is he a lesser being?
I am kind of ranked by your trepidation, but I like it!
At the same time you have the good judgement to seek our advice, and I question that...
It's not the Mickey Mouse Club, nor is it the Running, Jumping, STanding STill Say Hey There Day Care.
What would Sergeant Friday say?ST's a shithole, but at least they let ya protect and serve and post drunk on the Sabbath eve!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:46am PT
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what would Officer Krupke say?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:02am PT
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I'm guessing he already has an account and hasen't told you. Mighta been LEB for all we know.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:05am PT
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I was tending toward "yes" because it was part of the deal...
...until the 'mooseknuckle' thread appeared... now I'm thinking it would be better for him to not to have parental approval...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:11am PT
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Stzzo is right. Unless you stop him from using the computer, he can still read everything here... Why not let him contribute?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:29am PT
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might he be offput by head size?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:35am PT
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We are totally immunized against Big-Headitis. Small-brainitis, not so much.
Big-boobitis has no known cure.
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kc
Trad climber
the cats
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Jan 18, 2013 - 09:07am PT
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A deal's a deal. It's too late to weigh the pros and cons now; you already agreed!
Can't be any worse than what he's exposed to every day at school, in the media, and online.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 18, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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I got an idea... go ahead and let him have his account. Trial by fire I say. If he can take the heat, he can stay.
Armed with this statement alone we have sufficient ammunition to harass him for weeks:
... He stuck with it but almost had a meltdown when pulling over the chockstone choked chimney on the fifth pitch. He then struggled to get past the jump traverse but did it with the help of a nice canadian couple ...
Just those stories coming Dad and provide Locker with a few photos to manipulate and we're gold. Edit to add: (How big can a head really get BTW)?
BTW.. Not sure of his age or how sneaky he is, but if you tell him "no" he'll probably just open up an account under an avatar. Better to know who he's posting as ... mostly so we can mock him about getting rescued by Canadians while having a meltdown ;).
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 18, 2013 - 09:50am PT
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Wasn't the reply?
Dear Officer Krupke
What are we to do?
Gee, Officer Krupke
Krup you!
Isn't it always?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:04am PT
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Mike,
I would stick with the original deal. My father has passed away, but I still remember the time he promised to do something and then didn't follow thru.
Besides, in this time period, your son will be exposed to many things on the web far more controversial than anything on S.T.
He will probably get bored here soon enough, since most posters are old geezers.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:13am PT
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You made a deal and he completed his side of it. Seems black and white to me.
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WyoRockMan
Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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Mike,
I think you should allow it. Even though climbing content is a small fraction of the material, there is plenty of gold to be had within that small portion.
The only cons I see are also applicable to any search engine.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:09am PT
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18 and over only, please . . .
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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You have to kick him out of the nest eventually......but, in this case, give him a parachute.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
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Maybe he's already got one, and is pretending to be one of the older gentlemen hanging out in the boobs thread.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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You don't need an account to lurk on the forum. He's probably already seen all 1295 boob posts!
How old is he?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Just say no.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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Just keep on thinking that you have that much control over what he does...he's got you right where he wants you:-)
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
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Live by your word and congratulate him again on making the climb! Your modeling a man who keeps his word is worth more than any downside you can fathom here on ST. It will earn you a mountain of respect instead of a chasm of distrust.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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I was kinda thinking I should tell him that climbing it meant freeing it on lead. He is only 11, but soon to be 12. I know he can look at what he wants, but he still does listen to me.
I walked in one day and saw him signing off as Rockjox so I am sure everything will be fine.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
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You'd be better off taking your son to a biker bar . . .
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Eleven is old enough.
When I was a kid, eleven years old meant YOU were the one who babysat your nieces, nephews, the kids down the street, and the kids of your parents' friends. Babysitting is a pretty heavy responsibility, and eleven is old enough to handle that, so he should be OK around here.
However remote the possibility, I always assume there are kids reading this already, so you won't see me posting up anything not appropriate for kids.
I can't think of a better resource for learning about the traditions and history of climbing than The Taco. Not enough young climbers understand history today ( hell, the guy I climb with most often probably couldn't tell you who Harding, Robbins, Salathe, etc. are, and he just turned 50 ).
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jan 18, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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It's important to train kids that things on the internet, are not always as they appear.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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"I walked in one day and saw him signing off as Rockjox so I am sure everything will be fine."...
LOL
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 18, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Put him in contact with Rajmit to get lessons on proper behavior on Supertopo.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
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yeah I say go ahead and let him in....
as for the good writer...
we will be the judge of that.
Can't wait to read a 12 year olds TR... it'd be a totally different perspective than say... Lockers....
Just read upthread edit:
Eleven years old?
No.
18+ please.
Is Tami on the prowl?
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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When I was 13 I was able to defeat every electronic attempt my father made to catch me on the computer (granted, back then it was simpler but whatever). But 11 seems a little young for the taco.
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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Would you teach him how to sneak into a brothel? Same thing, kinda.
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John M
climber
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
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When I was 13 I was able to defeat every electronic attempt my father made to catch me on the computer (granted, back then it was simpler but whatever). But 11 seems a little young for the taco.
Jeez.. the things kids learn today. When I was 13 the only thing I knew how to do was to break into my neighbors houses and steal their liquor and watch their porn.
Whats a computer?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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I wouldn't, but I'm a few years behind you in kid age so maybe I'm just projecting an opinion based on a younger kid. That said, I wouldn't recommend the taco to most adults I know.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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No! Too addictive. Shove him out of the house to play Kick the Can until dark. Then dinner. Then homework. Then read a book. Then go to bed.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jan 18, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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My concern would be exposure to bloviating morons prior to solid development of critical thinking skills. I would not want my children forming opinions based on what he and she read here.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 18, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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"middle-aged"? HaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 18, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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Ever type "ctrl + h" after he's been on your computer? That should tell you everything you need to know.
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Jan 18, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
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I always thought this place was at least PG-13, with plenty of R and NC-17 thrown in.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Jan 18, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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he's 11?
not yet. the average poster here sounds like maybe jr. high school age...
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
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He hasn't brought it up again but we did get out and rock climb a little today.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Jan 19, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
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11 yrs old? why would he need a supertopo account?
Be his dad , not his pal. there are plenty of pals, but just one father.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 19, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
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I don't know if it is possible to save kids from the internet, but it seems to me to be worthwhile to try. At 11 years old there are plenty of other things he could be doing with his time.
Much of what I've learned from the internet is what kind of person I don't want to be. That's fine for me, but I don't think an 11 year-old has any context for the absence of civility and common decency that characterizes a lot of internet discourse, and I think very little good can come from putting young people in situations that often make bullying, insulting, trolling, and other fairly base forms of human interaction, things usually suppressed in genuine interpersonal interactions, appear not only to be the norm, but often the subject of appreciation for the onlookers.
People will say this is modern life, but I'd say one of the things a parent ought to do is to carve out a little breathing room for kids to have a decent childhood, a place where wonder and naivete won't be met by sarcasm, a place where purposely trying to upset people up with statements you don't believe isn't a sport, a place where the possibility of human communication based on mutual respect is still pervasive. There's far too little such space on the internet, and children aren't in a position to evaluate dysfunction when they are surrounded by it.
I don't mean to tar Supertopo with a broad a brush, there are many thoughtful and interesting things going on here, and some of them are even related to climbing. But it's still the internet, with plenty of the behavioral extremes that anonymity seems to bring on.
He's got his entire adult life to navigate this terrain, and a very brief moment to be a kid. There's no need to rush the transition, and many reasons to think it unhealthy.
So I'm with Tami. Get yourself out of this. Find an alternate reward...
...and then get out of the rewards business. I think that overcoming adversity is, by itself, one of the rewards of climbing, and layering on external inducements that aren't part of the actual experience might mute that point and make the whole activity about something much less valuable, not at all what you were hoping for.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:21am PT
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hey there say, mike m.... and to rgold...
as to this qoute, and tami's withing that:
He's got his entire adult life to navigate this terrain, and a very brief moment to be a kid. There's no need to rush the transition, and many reasons to think it unhealthy.
So I'm with Tami. Get yourself out of this. Find an alternate reward...
...and then get out of the rewards business. I think that overcoming adversity is, by itself, one of the rewards of climbing, and layering on external inducements that aren't part of the actual experience might mute that point and make the whole activity about something much less valuable, not at all what you were hoping for.
that sounds very wise... kids are the internett toooooo much... :(
mike, perhaps this may help:
*example... my granddaughter was here today, last night, and that afternoon of yesterday... she learned more by me mentoring her as a
whose person whose brain was not connected to a computer of images and writing...
she had all her 'being' to work through, and use, and used this to develope
'realtionship' as to learning WHAT to do with herself as a young
adult....
computers are great study tools, but most studying is done better, after childhood lessons have been tackled well, first... less emotional confusion, as the 'whole person' can face it all better....
hope this helps...
:)
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Jan 20, 2013 - 09:18am PT
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If he's that sharp a kid, just tell him you made a mistake and Supertopo is still too adult for him. Pick out some great TR's and history for him to read and download it.
At this point, if he is lurking, he won't be able to resist telling you. ;->
A few more years, you'll never get those pre-teens back, don't rush it.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:19am PT
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Mike, the answer is obvious.
Look at what you told your son:
"I sorta told him he could have a supertopo account if he climbed Devil's Tower."
Your promise must be kept. My father weaseled on a few of his promises to me and he paid for it dearly in terms of respect and our relationship.
P.S. Why do you weasel with the "sorta told him" characterization of the promise. Is this like the girl who is sorta pregnant? Either you did or you didn't.
PPS. Now that I've tooled you on "loose lips sink ships" there is another option. Honest renegotiation with admission of your parenting error in making a promise that should not be kept and explain of why "not now" for a Supertopo account could easily be another (or even superior) alternative.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:26am PT
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NO.
11 year old boys are too smart for this place. He will embarrass all of us.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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I think yall flatter yourselves way too much.
If this kid is anything like mine? This place is inhabited by OLD F*#KS who listen to ANCIENT SH#T and blah blah blah blah about ANCIENT SH#T that happened BACK IN THE DAY while they lecture about how lazy kids are these days.
In other words?
BORING.
You're probably right. But my comments, for whatever they're worth, were about the internet generally and only tangentially about this site.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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Would it be impossible for me to be his father and give him my OK to have an internet account? Trust me much caution here, but he does not have a facebook account (as far as I know) like many of his friends. No major trouble, straight A's ect. It will be his only chance to meet some of you old farts and strangely he is interested.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jan 20, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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Let him read this thread?
He'll, 1. understand that you want what is best for him and 2. see that everyone here doesn't want him messed up by all the crap around here.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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Is it possible people would act better if they knew there was a 11 year old kid around?
Nah..
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 20, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
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There already is one and probably several others. Don't forget he is soon to be 12.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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hey there, say, mike m... no meaning to be pushing, but just worried
a bit, as to internet stuff for such a young boy...
share you time, mike, you will never regert it then...
say, hope this helps.. a few thins i have seen..
examples:
computers ISOLATE people that are in the same house...
relationships and interaction as face to face, are really needed at this young age...
look around you, what to folks do or say, when on computers:
i am busy, not now...
don't bother me...
wait... later, wait... am busy now...
(the list goes on)...
hours can fly by, and are lost, as to personal contact with folks
at home, etc... or chores, etc... you need tremendous decipline, if
a child... the do not have this yet, and it comes by 'real life interaction' as to other things they do, as to goals, etc..
now, without the computer (or even stuck on tv) people THE
MUST learn to interact, which is very important for kids,
and for mariages, too, etc..
SUCH AS--they have to learn HOW to deal with what is
right there in their house:
when something is wrong, when someone 'thinks' someone is 'in their face' etc, or bothering them, or, if they feel ignored, or have more need, etc or are jealous over others, well, they have to
relate and learn to deal with it, they need to be coached through it, smooth it out, do chores together, etc ,share their feelings, learn to grow, discuss how the day will go tomorrow, etc...
SADLY:
i know a few young kids around me (i have no say so in the matters) welll:
they are too young to be on facebook, etc, but one family the mom watches
the child... the other child is not watchd, as she has her own phone and the mom and uses its on line, whenever, and at friends, house, too, the mom can't constantly keep tabs on her... she is not quite 12!
there is another child!! too, who has an facebook account, and the mom has no clue what she does--she is 11 going on 12, posting things to her friends in very womanlife manners... the mom has no clue and will not listen to us, that would warn her...
she says that the girl is old enough to know better...
now:
IF the mom had an ongoing face to face realationship, this would not be happening, or
going on in such a way--they would be too busy BEING a family and working the
'needs for attention' that ALL CHILDEN have and need to have 'emotional feedings as to'....
so:
you have a wonderful WONDERFUL chance, mike m, to be a dad, mentor and even a friend, to your son, all rolled up in on... do NOT loose it, just for the sake of
'everyone has internet this young'... don't LOSE your son...
be with him everyday and learn who he is ...
work the yard together...
play ball...
if he climbs, more, then climb...
cook together...
laugh togethers...
dont lose him to 'others that he will think LOVE him more'...
a cousin of these young girls that i just mentioned, well:
THAT cousin just got a ticket to go to florida to meet a boy
friend that she met on the internet... her dad never had time for her
the family aunts etc, tried to give her time, but she by then, did not
want it... she is not even 16 yet, either... perhaps 14? i think...
the dad is now trying to keep in touch with her by phone, since
she called him one... they do not know anything about this guy/man,
at all...
kids NEED their parents... :)
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 21, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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rgold,
Thoughtful post.
...and I think very little good can come from putting young people in situations that often make bullying, insulting, trolling, and other fairly base forms of human interaction...
Not sure how the Internet is different than Jr. High WRT that ;-)
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 21, 2013 - 11:26am PT
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Exposure to Ron could stunt his growth.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jan 21, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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Not sure how the Internet is different than Jr. High WRT that ;-)
I know your response was light-hearted, but I'm going to give a serious answer anyway. I think it is different in at least two ways. One, the intensity of the nastiness and the ability of people from far-flung physical locations to gang up on someone magnifies what can occur in the school. But the main and important difference is that you can't tell the seventh-graders from the grownups on the internet when it comes to uncivil behavior, except possibly that the grownups, by virtue of longer experience and better vocabularies, are more accomplished at being seventh-graders.
And that's exactly why I'd want a different environment for my kid, an environment that suggests that humans progress beyond the seventh grade and find ways of relating and disagreeing that are not governed by middle-school outlook. Perhaps this is now hopelessly unrealistic; our national discourse has become almost entirely dysfunctional. But I'd rather go down bucking the abandonment of civility rather than giving up on a vision, however naive, of how a boy can become a good man.
Another approach would be to allow the internet but monitor it closely, and provide a steady level of commentary about what, in your house and your life, is simply not acceptable, no matter what other people do. There is a limited amount of time for this message to get through to a young person, and an 11-year old is nearing the end of that time period.
But really, why should an 11-year old be sitting on their butt in front of a screen? It's so isolating, and the time, time when a young mind is capable of absorbing so much, is so squandered.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 23, 2013 - 02:56am PT
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And that's exactly why I'd want a different environment for my kid, an environment that suggests that humans progress beyond the seventh grade and find ways of relating and disagreeing that are not governed by middle-school outlook. Perhaps this is now hopelessly unrealistic; our national discourse has become almost entirely dysfunctional. But I'd rather go down bucking the abandonment of civility rather than giving up on a vision, however naive, of how a boy can become a good man.
rgold, thanks for the usual thoughtful reply.
I'm mostly in agreement with you. OTOH, this thing called the Internet is pretty new - and I have faith that humans will grok it eventually and come to grips with both the power and the hazards of it. The reality is that the Internet (and all the things that come with it) are now just part of daily life. I don't think any attempts to shield children from it will be any more successful than any of the previous attempts were (radio, TV, etc.)
This is part of their world - even more than ours and I think the trick is teaching them to be discerning consumers of the media.
For every kid that's bullied on the Internet, there's probably 5 that have been able to connect to like-minded peers.
I truly believe that the Internet is the most amazing machine ever invented by humans.
Cheers,
-Steve
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Jan 23, 2013 - 03:14am PT
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^ +1
The internet is here, growing, and seeking ubiquity.
Shielding is not the answer.
As many have said, 12 year olds are smart. Be there when he uses it and explain the benefits and the pitfalls. Radical honesty. The internet is a tool unlike anything we have ever known and your son deserves to know that, and also should know it is also often a pit of lies and dark things. Just like the rest of human life.
He's made it this far as a good kid, and you already got the love of the outdoors in him- he wont stay here long- as dmt said- borrrrrrring
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 23, 2013 - 10:42am PT
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I'd vote no.
This is an adult site, people'd by mainly adults.
I view putting him on this site, as another manifestation of parents pushing their children into adult things.....like children in beauty contests.
You can't keep him off if he wants on. But collaborating to do so gives the wrong message.
He should be spending time with his own age group, not people whose filters as to what they should say are not always working.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
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This is an adult site? I would say the evidence points elsewhere.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 23, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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^^^^ HaHaHaHa! Maybe a developmentally challenged site.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
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^^ Agreed and I think as said above he ignores the rest. Like who would ever read a 40,000 post thread that says no you dint, yes I did. Luckily the climbing threads on here are short.
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