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Messages 1 - 128 of total 128 in this topic
brook_alongi

Big Wall climber
Everett, WA
Jun 6, 2006 - 10:19am PT
I thought that Pipeline was free soloed for the first ascent?

Maybe I'm remembering my facts incorrectly, but I do recall that detail. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's burly, period.
Grug

Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
Jun 6, 2006 - 11:12am PT
Pipeline was free-soloed on the first free ascent. Many of the sawed-off tubes were still in place in 1979.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jun 6, 2006 - 11:31am PT
As an aside, there was this German guy in the Valley around '81 or '82.

His name was Sonny. He was the Proto-Uber-Man. Stark blue eyes, a massive frame and a tight cropped mustache; the guy was unstoppable on walls.

If Clancey were to read this he'd post up some stories for sure.

Perhaps it was for the Zodiac: the wide pitch or whatever, but Sonny had fabricated his own tube chocks by cutting cross sections out of a helicopter skid!

He called protection in general, "Materiel" and would say "Vee Need More Materiel"...
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 6, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
Read and see more about Pipeline on Mike Hengeveld's website (careful, you may get psyched to do it!):

http://home.primus.ca/~dooley/climbing/offwidths/episode5.html
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 7, 2006 - 02:06am PT
Thanks for the reference to Mike Hengeveld's stories of Pipeline. In fact, he's done the climb twice - some people never learn. But he's still my friend, although he's temporarily abandoned offwidthing for parenthood. And his website is pretty good, though not lately updated.

I suppose we could re-direct this thread, and everyone could tell "the most horrible off-width/chimney I've ever done" stories, which might be lots of fun. I still hope to learn more about the origins and evolution of tube chocks.

Anders
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 7, 2006 - 11:07am PT
thanks Clint, that is a wonderful site!



I loved Episode III
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Jun 7, 2006 - 11:36am PT
Hi Anders,

I have been trying to think of what was going on with tube chocks when Chouinard and Frost came out with their design.
It seems like such a simple idea I would guess that there were homemade versions of similar designs that preceded Chouinard's and Frost's design.

However, I don't remember any thing before, at least not in the Valley.

I still have two or three of the original designs. They are in great shape because they didn't get used much--they were hard to use. Somehow, aluminum bongs seemed to be more versatile.

Best, Roger

Great cartoon.


chiranjeeb

climber
Jun 7, 2006 - 11:42am PT
Hi Grug,

Aren't you the person who free-soloed Pipeline for the FFA? It will be nice if you could tell us about your experience.
Grug

Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
Jun 7, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
chiranjeeb. There's not a whole lot to this story. In 1979 I was in Squamish with Tom Gibson, George Manson, Rob Rohn, and Mike Tschipper. We had been coming to Squamish annually for the last 2-3 years. We met up with Squamish locals Perry Beckham and perhaps Scott Flavelle. On that trip, Tom and Rob put up Freeway, one of the great Squamish long free climbs.

Perry was the one who talked up Pipeline. He had known about my Lost Arrow Chimney solo. I remember him showing us the climb from still some distance away the evening before I climbed it. I can't remember much else but setting out the next morning by myself and doing it. Those sawed-off pipes were plentiful (at least 4 of them), and I vaguely remember having a hard time getting around at least one of them.

Perry had suggested the FFA name be called Pipeloads. I sort of agreed, but apparently nothing came of it. I had no idea that this climb would become a classic.

BTW, Hengeveld's article is pretty darn amusing.
SueV PHD

climber
San Diego
Jun 7, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
"get DOWN from there, Greg!"

zardoz

Trad climber
Austin, TX
Jun 7, 2006 - 01:20pm PT
Hey Sue, are you the same Sue from rec.climbing? I recall there was a Sue there who did altitude studies. With you being a PhD, I figured you were the one.

If so, this is timstich. For some reason I went to the alias here, thinking I wanted to hide my internetblabla from prying future employers. Fecking waste of time. I haven't been to the wreck in quite a while. Hope everyone is good over there.
PDHMAN

Ice climber
Eastside of ....
Jun 7, 2006 - 01:21pm PT
Batso's "Crack Jack" for ASTROMAN IN 59' may just be the original Tube Chock!

Check out this site...great info!
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 7, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
Thanks for that post Clint. What a cool looking line. Now I want to do it.
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 7, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
Yes, important to remember that Greg Cameron free-soloed Pipeline in 1979 - probably the second ascent, and the first free ascent. Pretty bold stuff!

There are also the Tetons (Teetons? Titons?), on much the same principles. Long pieces of t-bar stock, ends tapered in. Usually used end-ways, sometimes side-ways.

The nut museum website is really good - I'd read about it before. As a trip to Corsica doesn't seem likely any time soon, the site will have to do.

Anders
Chief

climber
Jun 28, 2010 - 11:25am PT
Bump for Grug's on sight, free solo first free ascent of Pipeloads.
A memorable day indeed!
And Greg did throw my tube chocks off the Pillar on purpose.
That was the genesis of the now infamous bolted lieback into the Flats.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 28, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
Perhaps Tricouni (Glenn) can add stories and photos about the FA of Pipeline, in 1966. He did it with Leif-Norman Patterson and Barry Hagen. I also forgot to mention that they obtained at least some of the aluminum pipe from my father, who was an engineer with Alcan - I remember one of them coming to our house to get it.

I wonder what became of those pipes? Buried in the loam under the cliff, or?
MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Jun 28, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
Great bump, Perry - the old links are broken, here's the main OW page:

http://www3.telus.net/public/7394243/climbing/offwidths/offwidths.html

and the Pipeline...err...Pipeloads page:

http://www3.telus.net/public/7394243/climbing/offwidths/episode5.html
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 28, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
I thought it was either Bacher or Werner who invented the tube socks?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 28, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
Dan Smith and I made some crude tube chocks, using aluminum pipe about 1 1/2 inches in diameter, in 1971. We weren't aware of anyone else having them then, but I rather doubt that we did it first. If you're interested, I'll post a picture when I get home.

John
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Jun 28, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
I could have sworn I had one on my rack in '72 or '73. Between those and the big Chouinard hexes, the crag often sounded like there were wind chimes hung all over the place.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jun 28, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
Here's a story I told about Yvon talking about why he made tube chocks;

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=192446&msg=192503#msg192503
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Jun 28, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
Very funny story Piton, I have to say, "been there, done that".
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 30, 2010 - 12:25am PT
As I recall, the evolution started with extralong sections of #10 Hex stock. They weighed a ton and never hit the market. Thin walled tubing was readily available without setting up yet another extrusion. The fillets lessened the twist rocking making the tubular bells easier to place securely.





CMI offered their I beams at about the same time. I don't have any their units.

I never fiddled with the Forrest T beams beyond the biggest Titon. That mass of aluminum would have made a dandy mace! I did place it quite a bit as a 4" nut just a tad larger than a #11 Hex.
ScottW

Trad climber
CA
Jun 30, 2010 - 01:03am PT
If my memory serves me right, I thought DR was involved in their original design. Correct me if I'm off base on this.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 30, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
DR himself would have to weigh in here. If he had a hand in all things tubular, I'm sure he will enter and sign in please!
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Jun 30, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
Steve, I have 5 sizes, how many were there?

Credit: Thorgon


Thor
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 30, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
The range was 4" - 6" in 1/2" increments for a total of five tubes.
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Jun 30, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
Great, thanks, now I need the #3 & #4 original Chouinard Camalots!



Thor

MisterE

Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
Jun 30, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
Dude! Put down the bongs!

;)
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Jun 30, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
There is some text in DR's book that suggests he was involved in the design.
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
Here's a photo of the rack we used on the 1st ascent of Pipeline at Squamish (early 1966).
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162223
I'll try and hunt up a photo of the route with the tubes in use.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Awesome shot, Glenn! Thanks for posting it.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
Nice rack.

You guys were shaving your heads back then?? LOL
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
That's a helmet, Ron, on Leif Patterson's head.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 1, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
LOL



(bagged one!)
local

Social climber
eldorado springs
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
We drilled and countersunk about anything that would take a sling.
tube and bar stock from around '70
tube and bar stock from around '70
Credit: local
The scrap pile in '09
The scrap pile in '09
Credit: local
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
And here's the darned things in use....
Offwidth with tube chocks, 1965 (Squamish)
Offwidth with tube chocks, 1965 (Squamish)
Credit: Glenn Woodsworth
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
Nice looking fatcrack! I can see why Greg jumped on in! LOL
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:07am PT
This thread has gone all tubular - fantastic!

Glenn, your photo is amazing. Photo of the month, I'd say Was it from 1965 or 1966? The caption says 1966, the photo of Leif says "early 1966".

Here's a photo of Slhanay (formerly called the Squaw), on which is Pipeline:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162245
The route for Pipeline is much the same as or a bit to the right of what is now the first half of Birds of Prey, to the 'jog', then up the arching left-facing corner to the right. (Grey strip, between white areas.)

The big right-facing corner is Right Wing.

A photo from the site that dares not speak its name, from the same spot as Glenn's was taken from, but of a modern free climber.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162247

Now where are all those wyde people, anyway? They should be lapping this stuff up.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:09am PT
Oh, they're lapping.
Anticipation to bleeding is exquisite.
Or some such.
Mimi

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:09am PT
Jeeze, Greg! That was a proud send!
Wack

climber
Dazevue
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:21am PT
For those that missed tube chock era the proper way to rack tube chocks was to pull the perlon out one end of the tube so you could rack them in a vertical orientation minimizing the clutter.
Credit: Wack
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:22am PT
Tubes came in pretty early; there were too many hard climbs that needed pro bigger than an #11 hex. CMI made I-beams, forest made Titons, those utah bros had cams without springs; what was a 'nard to do?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:50am PT
Speaking of which:
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162257
A classic wooden wedge, possibly also in the photo from 1966 that Glenn posted. Donated by the Patterson family to the YCA museum.

There were all sorts of variants, but this one may have been commercially made, in Europe, in the early 1960s. Wooden blocks were also used on the first ascent of Tantalus Wall (Yosemite Pinnacle), possibly homemade. The crack was too wide for even the biggest bongs.
Chief

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:35am PT
After his rad solo, Greg explained that "I could see I could get my knee in, so knew it wouldn't be too bad." Really?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:52am PT
Use your knee,
and you,
Can use your mind....
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 2, 2010 - 09:46am PT
Chief- Most people need to get their foot in the door but fat crackers just need to get that knee in there!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
A few of Leif's bongs, as shown in Glenn's photo upthread.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162288
The largest bongs ever commercially made, by LongWare. The largest is just under 6", but it still wasn't big enough for Pipeline.

Two now donated to the YCA museum, one I use for a memento and paperweight.
The Wedge

Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
John Markwell, of Seneca Rocks Climbing School, Seneca WV. Designed some chocks, Not Tube chocks...but maybe that too. Story goes he sent a set to Yvon Chouinard, and heard no word back from him. Then all of a sudden there was a photo in his mag selling chocks. Lots of cool shiZ on the wall in the Gendarme too. Just like Neptune Mnteering.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
So how many fixed tubes are still in situ on this route?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
More on Pipeline, with various links, including one to Grug's story of the FFA in 1979.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=849555
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 5, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#162418
A few more LongWare bongbongs, as may have been used on Pipeline. For the wyde folk.

These ones are steel, with the largest being about 4". I believe that Leif went to graduate school in the Bay area in about 1962 or 1963, did some climbing in the Valley then, and probably bought all the bongs then.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 5, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
Where the heck is DR on this tubular business?
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 25, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
Still waiting for DR to shoot the Tube, historically speaking! Maybe the next set...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 26, 2010 - 01:52am PT
Bump, so that folk need not wade for the wyde on Monday!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 26, 2010 - 04:27am PT
hey call it wyde monday
but tuesday is just as thick....
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 31, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
Calling DR! Tubular Bump right back at ya, Anders^%
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 2, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
Steve had to email to get my attention; all summer life has trumped Taco.

I developed the tube chocks that Chouinard eventually marketed. In the past I've claimed "inventing" them, but now it seems the Squamish boys beat me to it. I started hand-making prototypes in Chouinard's tin shed in '69 or '70, and testing them in the Palisades and the Valley. That quickly led to production models in the catalog. I dreamed up the idea almost* completely on my own. Didn't know about Pipeline until right now, though that's clearly earlier tube use than mine. And I don't recall seeing John Markwell's tubes come in to Chouinard Equipment. I bet that happened after we were underway on my design.

Here's the almost* part: My Dad was an aeronautical engineer. He did some of the earliest work on making airplane fuselages out of giant aluminum tubes. So in a way I was spinning off of his idea when I came up with the Tube Chock.

Stanford Aeronautical Engineering Lab, 1930
Stanford Aeronautical Engineering Lab, 1930
Credit: DR

Maybe this won't make much sense here, but this photo is from my Dad's Engineering Masters Thesis at Stanford in 1930. It's a big aluminum tube rigged up to test its shear strength, to see how much force it takes to buckle the tube. It's an early step toward making tubular fuselages for airplanes, back in the days of balsa wood structures with fabric skins stretched over them.

By the time I was a kid in the 50s, my dad was the Director of Research at the NASA lab at Moffett Field in Silicon Valley. He would take me to wander through the labs and wind tunnels. One day I picked up a scale model of the X-15 off a lab bench. He cooly moved me along. Years later I realized I had seen a still-secret design.

Anyway, the strength of aluminum tubes stuck with me, and when clean climbing was blossoming at Chouinard's tin shed it turned into my Tube Chock design.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Thanks, Doug! That helps clear things up. I'll check with Glenn (Tricouni), but suspect that they used the tubes in a more 'active' sense, whereas the Chouinard tube chocks were intended for passive use. Otherwise, the idea seems quite similar. Parallel evolution or something...
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 2, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
Yeah, "active" as in with a hammer.

We never even tapped on Chouinard tubes, cuz that's the game we played, though I scared myself many, many times by not going there. I did carry a file in my pocket sometimes, to custom-fit a tube to the crack. It never worked very well. In fact they weren't the best of pro. They just didn't adapt that well to the flaring vagaries of wide cracks.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 2, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
Thanks for joining in, Doug.

Did extra long sections of Hexentric extrusion predate your Tube Chock design? I remember hearing rumors of custom cut long Hexes but I never saw one.
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 2, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
I've seen one of those super long hexes.
Can probably get a pic of it...
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 2, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Somewhere I have photo of one, extendo, extrudo hex that lives in the Fish shop when it's not out climbing, maybe Russ will post a shot (like that's likely....)
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Sep 2, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
Thanks again Doug, great background! It is all in the details and I enjoy hearing of the history of gear I have used to keep my rear-end out of harms way! LOL

Original Tube Chocks.
Original Tube Chocks.
Credit: Thorgon


This is the set I used regularly in the 80's!


Thor
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 2, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
Fresh from the source... the legendary Fish hex...looks like a #8

Having a beer...


And a shot of it in action...

Credit: Russ W Photos
Thorgon

Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
Sep 2, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
Steel Monkey, You are awesome! That is the Baddest Hex ever!!!




Thor
P.P.S. Someone needs to "pop the top" on that Natural Light!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 2, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
Very cool long hex! Definitely the modern thin wall extruded stock. Any shots of the heavier symetrical stock that would have predated the Tube Chock? The offset Hexentric and Tube Chock came out in the same year, 1973.

I bet the Fish swam away with a whole length of that stock and has a selection stashed in the armory. 8" sweet!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Sep 3, 2010 - 02:33am PT
I shoulda know you'd get that image out before I got home and have to mine my harddrive...
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 3, 2010 - 10:14am PT
No sweat JB - I had help. :-)
richross

Trad climber
Sep 3, 2010 - 11:51am PT
Big pro's the way to go!

steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 3, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
A little follow up to the big hex pics... Russ says this is the biggest chock in his arsenal and the biggest one he's ever seen. Around 37"



Sorta looks like a pipe, don't it?
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:17am PT
I dug out a couple of the original tube chocks Leif Patterson and I made for the Pipeline route at Squamish in 1966. There are two variants, one of each shown in the two photos below.

Original tubes used on Pipeline (1966)
Original tubes used on Pipeline (1966)
Credit: Tricouni
Original tube chocks used on Pipeline (1966)
Original tube chocks used on Pipeline (1966)
Credit: Tricouni

The smaller one (with the oval carabiner) was cut from an old television antenna. This stock is less than 1/8" thick, and the tubes are about 1-1/4" in outside diameter. The first time we used them we found they had a tendency to deform and bend too much for our liking, so we developed the Mark II model. These were made of heavier stock, obtained from MH's father, I think, about 1/8" thick with an outside diameter of about 1-5/8". They were much better, but weight 7-8 oz. each, compared with about 3 oz. for the lightweight model.

We cut the pipe into sundry lengths, from about 6", I believe, to about 9". What's shown are a 7-1'2" and 8" model. We cut the stock on an angle, so we could use them cam-fashion. And we cut a hole right through the pipe fairly close to one end, again to help with the camming action.

In use, we found we wanted to pound on them so they were well and truly in place. You can see the hammer marks particularly well on the big tube. Indeed, we couldn't get some of them out - they stayed there for some years, might still be there for all I know. In an earlier post I showed the tubes in use on the FA of the route.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:33am PT
whats the breaking strength on those silk curtain tassels used to sling them with Tricouni ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 4, 2010 - 12:38am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#168969
Tricouni's photo of the FA of Pipeline, in 1966. (Posted upthread.)

Looks kind of wintry - although it's a spot that doesn't get a lot of sun.
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:34am PT
whats the breaking strength on those silk curtain tassels used to sling them with Tricouni ?
bmacd, I'm not sure. The light grey stuff is braided nylon, 1/4". It's not climbing grade, I probably got it from a marine-supply place, as many of us got similar stuff for prussik slings and such. Breaking strength is probably 1000 lbs. or so. The reddish brown stuff is weird, very stiff, laid synthetic, about 1/8" to 3/16" in diameter. I had 100 feet of this around for years. It might have been bought by my parents at a garden-supply shop. It was too stiff for most climbing use. Breaking strength? At a guess, 600 lbs.

But we used the pipes for aid; we weren't good enough to free the thing; we didn't know how long the pitch was; and we were kind of spooked by the whole thing.

Mighty: it was a bit wintry. More on that later.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 4, 2010 - 01:49am PT
we were kind of spooked by the whole thing.
No doubt good sir ...

Some classic accounts can be found on the net regarding the Pipeline spook factor.

here is one sample:

http://www3.telus.net/public/7394243/climbing/offwidths/episode5.html
I decided to do some reconnaissance by rappelling down a neighbouring route. I had intended to measure the true width of the crack; unfortunately I dropped my tape measure from the last pitch of another route. I swung over the dramatic edge of the first rappel and, to my utter disbelief, I found somebody on the crux of the route! At the stage that I found him, our brave soul had resorted to aid, and I watched with horror as he weighted a completely tipped out Camelot #5 whilst placing a #3 Big Bro. This lasted until his Camelot no longer fit. Then he swapped his two Big Bros. I decided that his heavy titanium balls were almost certainly offset by his Styrofoam cerebrum, but he made it up, making him more of a man than you, or me, or any of our friends.

Climbing has always been about getting to places where others are not. Pipeline has become the ultimate expression of this desire. In many ways I am fueled by a desire to refute--disprove even--the overwhelming belief that Pipeline is "another man's route". I have spent so long trying to find a person who has done the route specifically because I yearn for some encouragement; I need to believe that I can do it. It is 5 parts horrifying, 5 parts inspiring that I could become that person for others. If I can get my ass up, perhaps I can convince my friends that they could do the same.

Here's to hoping. I'll keep you posted.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Sep 4, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
bump for this thread, wide cracks, big cams and having big enough nuts for the job.
Also bump for Greg's on sight first free ascent of Pipeloads, sans cord back in 82?
I'll never forget his rationale, "I could see the crack was big enough to get my knee in so I knew I'd be fine".
Talk about having sufficient "natural wide gear" that day!
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 4, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
"Let's go throw a little meat at the crack," as Scott Baxter used to say.
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Sep 6, 2010 - 01:21am PT
Here's the rest of the Pipeline FA story.... if anyone cares...

Leif Patterson and I left Vancouver one late winter morning with an eye to doing the big, obvious, slibhtly overhanging crack on the Squaw at Squamish. It was a truly beautiful morning: blue sky, crisp and cool. By the time we got to Squamish it was still clear and blue, but it was obvious that it had snowed overnight and a couple of inches of fresh, wet snow covered the ledges and much of the Apron. I wasn't totally enthusiastic about the conditions, but Leif said, "well, let's just walk up to the base and have a look."

So we put on boots, rain pants and anoraks (the bush was soaking). We got to the base of what looked like a reasonable line and saw that the snow was melting from the big slab a few pitches below the offwidth. So we peeled off the raingear, roped up, and swapped leads up the bottom two or three pitches. Climbing was pretty easy -- it had to be, with everything covered with wet snow or else soaking wet. We were getting close to the serious stuff, and it looked as if the sun was going to hit the slabs soon and warm us up. Keep going! From a good tree platform, we scrambled right to a bombproof, and dry, tree belay. The corner above was really wet and dripping, so I put the yellow rainpants and anorak back on for this lead (see photo).
photo not found
Missing photo ID#169115
I did this about 50% aid, 50% free (yes, I know, I know: it's all free, but you do it with full rainsuit and mountain boots!). In the photo, I'm standing on a snag in the crack. The white stuff on the "horn" of the snag is snow, and you can see more snow shining in the sun just poking over the top of the wall. So yes, Anders, it was wintry.

Anyways, I thrashed up the corner and over the lip onto a narrow, sloping ramp that gradually curled up into the offwidth. I'd been wearing army surplus wool gloves, but even so my fingers were really, really cold. I realized we weren't going any farther that day, but Leif wanted to see. So up he came and we both sort of huddled in the basal part of the offwith and looked up. That's where the pipe idea came from: it was way too wide for any wooden wedges or bongs. We couldn't get any trustworthy pro in. So we pounded in a bolt and rapped off.

After a few weeks we had the first batch of pipes/tubes made - the thin ones. We sucked Barry Hagen into the project, and on a warm, sunny spring day up we went. Unfortunately, we soon realized that we'd underestimated the width of the crack. Most of the pipes were too short and probably too weak to do the job. So off we went, leaving a fixed rope. Over the next few weeks, Leif and I made the Mark II pipes from tube scrounged from Anders' father.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#169116
The day of the final ascent was sunny. Up the fixed rope the three of us went (see photo). We all had a go at leading the crack, placing the pipes and worrying about the top one pulling and all of them zippering out - most of them weren't that stable. That's why we placed a protection bolt about half way up; I don't know if it's still there or not. Leif led the upper half, from the bolt to the top. Our 150-foot rope was a bit too short, so the second person had to start simul-climbing while Leif was finishing off the last 10 feet or so.

Then we packed up the gear and walked down to the car.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 6, 2010 - 02:03am PT
Thanks for sharing the sporting tale, Triconi!

Sometimes too thin just won't cut it!



Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 6, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
It was graded 5.5, A2 in Glenn's 1967 guide to climbing at Squamish. The description:
Start about 100 feet left of a huge, left-facing corner about 100 yards south of Kiddie Corner. Climb an obvious and crack line for 2 leads to a good tree platform (free, only a few moves are 5.5). Traverse right on a slabby ramp, then climb 50 feet of more broken rock to a very solid, gnarled tree. Nail a 40 foot overhanging corner past a roof and climb (5.5) the jam crack beyond to 2 belay bolts.

The last lead is 170 feet long and requires hardware to fit the 6 1/2 inch to 8 inch crack. The first ascent party used 1 1/4 inch diameter aluminum pipe sawed into assorted lengths; about 30 pipes are needed. There is one bolt in place just beneath the overhang and good belay trees at the end of the route.

In addition to the pipes. take a selection of 15 angles up to 2 inches, a few horizontals, a couple of large bongs, and a 200 foot rope. The route will take one day. From the 2 belay bolts it is possible to rappel directly down, using 2 ropes.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
In Gordie Smaill's (edit) 1975 guide, Pipeline was graded 5.5 A2 or 5.10 incomplete.
Start 100 feet left of a huge left facing corner about 100 yards south of Kiddie Corner. Free obvious bush and cracks for two leads to a tree ledge. Traverse right on a ramp then up 50 feet past broken rock to a twisted tree. Free an overhanging corner and jam to belay bolts. The original ascent used pipes to aid this next long lead to top. A cloud of 5.10 or 5.11 surrounds this last bit. 25 inch arms appear to be mandatory here. Protection in this offsize crack is good since some pipes have been left in along with a bolt.
This strongly suggests that someone had either made a second ascent, using less aid, or had tried to do it free, and got at least to the base of the big crack. There were several good offwidths climbers around then, including Gordie himself, Al Givler, Steve Sutton, and Hugh Burton.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Sep 7, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
Alan Kearney, in his North Cascades Select guidebook, alleges that Washington climbers in the 50s or 60s used "plumber's helpers" (adjustable lengths of pipe) to protect wide cracks and that these were the true forerunners of modern tube chocks.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
Interesting. Leif at least had considerable contact with Seattle climbers in the early to mid 1960s, and might have heard something. But then, the history of climbers cramming all sorts of odd objects into cracks goes much further back. The bicycle crank in Llanberis Pass in the 1930s, probably stuff in the Dolomites even earlier.

When Pipeline was done in 1966, the cliff it's on was informally known as the Squaw. The other subsidiary crags at Squamish are the Papoose and the Malemute, a bit of a theme. Anyway, the cliff was renamed Slhanay a few years ago, that being considered a more acceptable term by Squamish's First People. I don't know if it's an official name with the CPCGN.
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Sep 7, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
Anyway, the cliff was renamed Slhanay a few years ago, that being considered a more acceptable term by Squamish's First People. I don't know if it's an official name with the CPCGN.
It's not official.
gf

climber
Sep 7, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
Nails -we will know it is official when the billboard at the casino by hwy 99 tells us so.
Hey are we still on when Indian summer shows up?

gf
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Sep 7, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
The new name for the Squaw is bogus, I wonder who the hell came up with it?
We are definitely going to die of political correctness.

Reminds me of a quote attributed to the late Sam Kinnison; "The only reason she (a prominent African American actress who starred in the Color Purple) became famous was because the whole world decided not to hurt her feelings.

Back to wide cracks.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
Are we supposed to call it "First Peoples' Summer" now?
Tricouni

Mountain climber
Vancouver
Sep 7, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
Chief wrote: The new name for the Squaw is bogus, I wonder who the hell came up with it?
"The Chief" newspaper for June 6, 2008, quotes Kevin McLane aqs saying, "I suggested to Donna [Billy, of the Squamish Nation] about a year ago that if Squamish Nation wanted to choose a new name, I could get it established with BC Parks and the district and make sure it appeared in future climbing guide." They chose Slhanay. The paper also says, "The Squaw word has rankled with Squamish Nation for many years, and as a result it dropped off the map as far as government was concerned."

Neither Slhanay nor the Squaw is an official name. Nor, for that matter, are the Malemute or Papoose.

I have no idea how widely, if at all, Kevin consulted within the climbing community.

Back to wide chocks....
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 7, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
Anders I think that's a great idea. FIRST PEEEPLES SUMMER 'cept here on the wet left coast we can call it the damn end of the damn summer and the damn pause before the GODDAAAAAAMN rains !!!!

Huge fabulousness to Glenn for that story & pix. Nice to see all the posters since it were Squamish folks jumping for joy.......not that Tricouni ever did that...... ( Glenn -PUN INTENDED ....... )

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 7, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
Tricouni has rather more knowledge of these matters than me, but I'll try.

The B.C. government, then the NDP, decided in 2000 to change offical place names in the province with the word "squaw", as it was considered by some to be insulting. The First Nations Summit and Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs asked that such names be changed. ("Squaw" is in any case probably an Algonquian word, not found in Coast Salish or any other local language here.) There were then 11 official names in the province with the word "squaw". Other provinces, and states in the US, had previously made similar changes. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/12/09/bc_squaw001209.html

The Access Society (www.access-society.ca) suggested in its newsletter in 2004 that the Squamish Nation be asked what they'd like the cliff to be named, even if unofficially. A newsletter which went to many addresses in Squamish. It just took a while to happen.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hpT5SREfa6cJ:old.access-society.ca/archives/accessnews/accessnews_38.doc+squamish+chief+anders+ourom+squaw&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Sep 7, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
I have no idea how widely, if at all, Kevin consulted within the climbing community.

As much as usual.

If were going to quit using the term squaw, then let's sh#t can the term Indian (as in Indian Summer or Cowboys and Indians) cause we're no where near India and my Cokum ate beavertails not chapattis.

Back to Pipeloads
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Sep 7, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
Squaw" is in any case probably an Algonquian word, not found in Coast Salish or any other local language here.

It's also the word for woman in the Chinook jargon, which WAS used here extensively locally for something like 200 years. It was taken from Algonquian for Chinook, true, but every other word in that made-up language was also taken from other languages - Cree, Salish, English, French, you name it. Chinook had an extremely successful run of things but is almost vanished now.

Klahowya tillikum!
skykilo

Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
Sep 8, 2010 - 12:02am PT
Thanks for the story Tricouni, I loved it.

And nice work on the FFSA, Grug.

I could barely haul myself up that thing with a VG9 and I was feeling it for days after that. I need to jump on it again; my scabs are gone now anyway. Long sleeves next time for sure.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 8, 2010 - 12:14am PT
I had no idea that Drew was also a philologist, but shouldn't be surprised. :-)

Use of the loan-word "squaw" in an introduced trade jargon didn't make it a word that was part of the local languages.

What's a "VG9", and who is our new friend skykilo?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 8, 2010 - 12:53am PT
It's also the word for woman in the Chinook jargon,


A Voice Great Within Us, the story of Chinook ( Charles Lillard with Terry Glavin , Transmontanus ) says the word kloochman is woman or female in Chinook jargon. Wiki ( yeah , yeah ) cites Algonquin language as the source for "squaw" and I suggest it's possible distribution external to the area of influence of Algonquin languages have happened by literature as well as by traders who thought of First Nations women as inferior.

As for the crag, I dunno. The new name may work for local FN & I suppose climbers could get used to it. It doesn't matter really... the lines of ascent on the cliff remain the same - named by the first ascentionists.

Perhaps it will be like that mountain near Canmore which is the mountain-formerly-known-as-Chinaman's-peak.

The-crag-once-known-as-Squaw-then-as-Slahaynay-now-as-the-crag-with-no-name-north-of-the-Stawamus-Chief.

Revisionists!
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Sep 8, 2010 - 01:04am PT
Revisionists!

Exactly!
gf

climber
Sep 8, 2010 - 01:45am PT
yeah!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 8, 2010 - 01:46am PT
For real ! ! !
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 8, 2010 - 01:52am PT
Antidisestablishmentarianists!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Sep 8, 2010 - 02:31am PT
I see the old link to Mike Hengeveld's website and Pipeline story is broken. Here is the current link:
http://www3.telus.net/public/7394243/climbing/offwidths/episode5.html

Thanks for sharing the cool photos, Glenn.
scuffy b

climber
Eastern Salinia
Sep 8, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
VG9 would be the Valley Giant cam, Anders.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 03:14am PT
"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

 Humpty Dumpty

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

 Red Queen

From "Through the Looking Glass", by Lewis Carroll.

Bump, for the wyde.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Sep 9, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
I guess I'm wrong about squaw being in Chinook jargon, I always figured it was part of the family grouping

Chief, squaw, papoose, malemute = dad, mom, baby and dog

So are they gonna change the names of the Malemute and the Papoose too? Cause those aren't Salish either.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
The toponymy being what it is, it may depend on whether anyone gets a bee in his/her/its bonnet. Presumably if the Squamish First People suggested that the Papoose and Malemute be informally renamed with Coast Salish words equivalent to "child" and "dog", no one would mind. Somehow I doubt that the CPCGN would bother making them official, and whether the names would catch on with climbers is an open question.

It is kind of fun watching climbers, especially the PC variety, wrestling with whether they should say "Slhanay" or "Squaw" - you can almost see the gears turning.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Sep 9, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
It all amounts to lot of careful posturing around the "R" word.
Racism is alive and well in Canada. Our society attempts to assuage guilt for past injustice with mismanaged federal funding for aboriginals while big business and unscrupulous band leaders profit from self serving collusion disguised as "First Nation Partnerships". Somehow when aboriginals kill otter, fall old growth trees and sell salmon from the back of pick up trucks it's OK. The renaming of The Squaw is more "whitewash" and aboriginals have proven they're no better at taking care of the land then the honkies.

Take a drive down East Hastings for a clear perspective.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 9, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
I withdrew a post regarding the hypocrisy of first nations behavior earlier today. Chief you can add poaching of Bald Eagles for "ceremonial" uses to that list. I made a trip from Hartley Bay to Bella Bella in 2005 and learned much about the self imposed first nations condition, and in particular how the youth in these communities suffer the most from the questionable wisdom of the elders futile efforts to preserve their culture.

Give up the whinning first nations and integrate yourselves into society like the rest of the immigrants whom are lining up to enter this country.

yes i'm in a bitchy mood this week.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
OK,

Who's Ox is being gored ? Some things are just a no brainer. Like; "hey Jim, I hear you're from a large family. That Irish name and all, must make you a Catholic. You people breed like rabbits" ! This has been spoken to my face many times in my life. I can't see an issue, can you ?

Why don't we name a cliff "Knocked up Christian robot"?

Yes, the politics of indigenous people in Canada is brutal but once in a while something comes up that resonates. "Squaw" has always been derogatory. It certainly wasn't a term of respect uttered in the Cheiftain hotel bar in the 70's/80's.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
hey Bruce,

Assimilate like all the other immigrants ? Huh?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
A MacDonald? One of those whiskey-guzzling, sheep-shagging, Gaelic-speaking barbarians? One of the many who made it to Canada, one step ahead of the sheriff?

And don't get me started on them Norskies.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Jim there are many weaknesses in all my arguments, never the less I do love to argue

Anders I am the abandonded at birth son of a Hungarian geologist refugee, left on a scottish doorstep
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
How's the lack of titanium treating you ?

Better than before I hope.
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 9, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Jim I have 2 days worth of pain killers left, but am hooked up to a really nifty unit circulating cool water around the knee that is doing wonders for the swelling. 20 staples to be removed on the 20th. I can post up some hideous pictures if you like ?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
Well, you could circulate the photos, if you like. So to speak. Hope it's not too painful and awkward, that the T3s and lack of motion aren't causing intestinal dysfunctioning, and that you have enough.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
Bruce please don't.
Post the gnarly pix I mean.
Bitch away ; it's great to see even Perry tell us to drive Hastings ( better then walkin' it I daresay .... I prefer to view the ambulatory humanoid zone from the comfort and security of my automobile )

Butwuzzin't this a thread about TUBE CHOCKS?

Back on track boys, back on track.

:-)

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
With love,

Den Mother Tami.........
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
There doesn't seem a lot more to be said about tube chocks, given the history provided by Glenn and Doug. It does suggest that standards and innovation weren't so very different around North America then, despite the distance, and that some impressive although perhaps little-noticed climbs were being done here. It's not like Squamish was the centre of the climbing universe, but still...

It would be nice if, having shown that tube chocks (of a sort) were used in Squamish in 1966, we could go on to show that hexes, stoppers, penicillin, smarties, slacklining, and the single transferable ballot were also invented in Squamish. But it seems a stretch, even for the most parochial.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 9, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
So for Wide,

Were you lured [no trout intended Perry]into your first Squamillian whyde by Smaill's rating of 5.9 for The Right Side of Yosemite Pinnacle ?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 10, 2010 - 12:48am PT
I first put something more then my hands into a crack with ...............yeahhhhhhhhh..............Split Beaver. in the Bluffs.







Thrashed.










Bled.








Snivelled.









Not much else.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Sep 10, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
I recall walking into a campsite in J Tree with a #3 big bro stuck down the left leg of my Prana pants
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 15, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
Hey, for some reason I hadn't seen this thread since Tricouni (or Chief, for that matter) posted to it. Nice to hear from the first ascensionist and creator of those tube chocks. Seeing them brought on an instant recognition and flashback (I treasure those moments, because I don't always remember the past so well).

I gotta say, I just read Mike Hengeveld's Offwidth 8 part series from start to finish. Sheesh, that's writing I could only aspire to. My wife and I were in tears from Part III on.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
Get a little jiggy with the button on the #3 and it could have given new meaning to the word "sprung!"
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
There is still the interesting question as to when Pipeline had its second ascent, unless Greg's was the second ascent.
Allen Hill

Social climber
CO.
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:04am PT
Credit: Allen Hill
Patrick Oliver

Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:10am PT
Whenever I get around to finally noticing a thread like this,
well, I don't have energy to read the whole thing, and I wish I could
be clear in the details that, yes we were using tube chocks of a sort
as far back as about '65... nothing refined, rather crude... I don't
think I liked them and hardly did use any, but people had them. I think
I recall thinking it was a way to get around leading a scary pitch, and
a part of me liked the idea but another part thought we were trying to
keep from rising to the level of the climb... or something... Then a few
years later I saw some version that had a telescopic effect and could be
greatly enlarged almost to full chimney size.... well, not quite...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 4, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
So Tricouni and I were talking about obscure climbs and their history tonight, as we sometimes do. He referred to a photo and description of a climb in Culbert's "Alpine Guide to Southwest B.C." (1974). I got looking at other climbs on the cliff, and saw Dick's comment about Pipeline:

"..winds up in a rather serious crack which was aided originally with 6 1/2 - 8 inch sections of aluminum pipe. The route has not been repeated ATP, but the Pipeline crack has been climbed free to its final overhanging nose, and is very demanding."

The photo shows the crack as being graded 5.6, 5.9 and then near the top at 5.10, followed by an A4 bit.

So, who in the world was freeing most of Pipeline pre-1974, not to mention pre-1979, when Greg soloed it? Al Givler? Gordie Smaill? Hugh Burton or Steve Sutton?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Mar 5, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Dunno but eeeeeeyonnnkkeeeeee freesoloed it in , what ? '79 ? :-) Still the sickest freesolo ever at Squish. Or so I think.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 7, 2012 - 04:31am PT
wide bump

tricouni- the bolts still there or has been replaced and people thank god for it whenever they lead pipeline!
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