I am not trolling here. We call her stupid, irresponsible, imperialistic, etc, but the truth is we all love America.
If we can’t solve our problems, next generations will. Why? Because we are getting smarter. At least according to R. Flynn, a researcher at the University of Otago in New Zealand:
IQ scores have been increasing steadily since the beginning of the 20th century. Flynn went on to examine intelligence-test data from more than two dozen countries and found that scores were rising by 0.3 point a year—three full points per decade. Nearly 30 years of follow-up studies have confirmed the statistical reality of the global uptick, now known as the Flynn effect. And scores are still climbing.
And she is being slowed to a virtual standstill by Tea Party Congressmen who reject science, foment racisim and govern with absolutely no grasp of the real problems confronting a "modern" America.
I love an America that is a beacon of freedom, hope and tolerance.....an America that is a leader in innovation and scientific research. The America that drew OUR ancestors to it's shores when they "immigrated" in order to find a better life for themselves and their progeny.
LOL Kenny. It is not the pills. I just woke up with a smile on my face for some reason :)
Donini:
And she is being slowed to a virtual standstill by Tea Party Congressmen who reject science, foment racisim and govern with absolutely no grasp of the real problems confronting a "modern" America.
True, but we also elected the first black president. What’s more, we re-elected him. The ignorant will eventually lose.
Loving America -- or any country -- in the sense that Donini described above is one thing. Loving America -- or any country -- blindly, is quite another.
Blind patriotism is a what allows warmongers to have their way. It has been the death warrant for hundreds of millions of humans.
I reject the blind religion of patriotism. Ask not what good you can do for your country... no.
Ask... what GOOD is your country.
Hold her feet to the fire. She is only as good as today, yesterday's whine has nothing to do with tomorrow's promise.
Nada.
Mellenials... hold the answers, not the graybeards.
Reject the Religion of Apple Pie. No blind allegiance.
Hah!
I once swore an oath to protect yall with my life, if necessary. I meant it, eyes wide open. When I took that oath I felt the same way about America as I do now, in fact I wrote a college paper based on the Kennedy bastardization I wrote above.
Mrs Trautman gave me an A and I read that paper in a class of military professionals. :-)
I'd swear that oath again, and fight for US. Not for "America" though. For US.
But.....
*The government always bears close watching.
*Only half of my countrymen agree with my basic vision of America.
(Actually, most of us agree on most things, but there are a few issues that basically stop us dead in our tracks!)
*Speak loudly about the things you disagree with. That's one of the things I like about Ron, even though he's frequently wrong...HA!!
*Steve Earle said: "Yes, I'm a patriot, it's just that I've never worn red, white and blue very well." Can I get an AMEN?!?!!!!!!
Ghost, DMT, Donini, I completely agree. Patriotism is exploited by the politicians all the time. Being rational is the best way to serve your country. But I noticed that we (yours truly including) complain all the time about everything. It is healthy to balance the bad with the good. I think we are moving in the right direction, we are just slow.
Americans Optimistic About Life in 2013
PRINCETON, NJ -- Although Americans are generally pessimistic about the prospects for the nation's economy and international peace in the year ahead, the large majority (69%) say they are optimistic about how they and their family will do in 2013, while 27% are pessimistic.
Since when is toting a rifle a requirement of being a patriot?
Definition of PATRIOT
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
1.
a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially ofindividual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
I think Mr Earle might be down with that second definition in particular.
Toting a combat rifle in combat to defend your country at the risk of your own life is patriotism. Toting one into a school room or movie theater is not.
so when the US fights another "unjust war" or another "oil war"...and US soldiers slaughter ill-equipped peasant fighters in these "unjust wars" of US imperialism, or yet another "oil war" on behalf of US corporations...
those US soldiers are the only true "patriots" ?????
I thought the true "patriots" in these enlightened times were the activists trying to keep us out of all those imperalist wars and wars for oil
"Tell me who's the real patriots
The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags
Or the people with the guts to work
For some real change?"
-the Dead Kennedy's,
- Stars and Stripes of Corruption
I used to listen to the radio
And I don’t guess they’re listenin’ to me no more
They talk too much but that’s okay
I don’t understand a single word they say
Piss and moan about the immigrants
But don’t say nothin’ about the president
A democracy don’t work that way
I can say anything I wanna say
So f*#k the FCC
F*#k the FBI
F*#k the CIA
Livin’ in the motherf*#kin’ USA
People tell me that I’m paranoid
And I admit I’m gettin’ pretty nervous, boy
It just gets tougher everyday
To sit around and watch it while it slips away
Been called a traitor and a patriot
Call me anything you want to but
Just don’t forget your history
Dirty Lenny died so we could all be free
*Steve Earle
Questioning your country is more patriotic than blindly leaping off a cliff for it.
This is the best time of the day the dawn The final cleansing breath unsullied yet By acrid fume or death's cacophony The rank refuse of unchained ambition
And pray, deny me not but know me now Your faithful retainer stands resolute To serve his liege Lord without recompense Perchance to fall and perish namelessly
No flag draped bier or muffled drum to set The cadence for a final dress parade But it was not always thus remember Once you worshipped me and named me a God In many tongues and made offering lest I exact too terrible a tribute
Take heed for I am weary, ancient And decrepit now and my time grows short There are no honorable frays to join Only mean death dealt out in dibs and dabs Or horror unleashed from across oceans
Assail me not with noble policy For I care not at all for platitude And surrender such tedious detail To greater minds than mine and nimbler tongues Singular in their purpose and resolve And presuming to speak for everyman (Oh)
Oh, for another time, a distant field And there a mortal warrior's lonely grave But duty charges me remain until The end the last battle of the last war
Until that tomorrow render unto me That which is mine my stipend well deserved The fairest flower of your progeny Your sons, your daughters your hopes and your dreams The cruel consequence of your conceit
Yes, it is most valuable to question your country.
“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.”
Thomas Jefferson
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" I used to attribute to T. Jefferson, apparently incorrectly.
The earliest usage of the phrase we have found is in a 1961 publication, The Use of Force in International Affairs: "If what your country is doing seems to you practically and morally wrong, is dissent the highest form of patriotism?"
Steve Earle took a lot of heat for this one. But he recognized that John Walker certainly had his own point of view, and wrote the song from that perspective.
I'm just an American boy raised on MTV And I've seen all those kids in the soda pop ads But none of 'em looked like me So I started lookin' around for a light out of the dim And the first thing I heard that made sense was the word Of Mohammed, peace be upon him
A shadu la ilaha illa Allah There is no God but God
If my daddy could see me now chains around my feet He don't understand that sometimes A man has got to fight for what he believes And I believe God is great, all praise due to him And if I should die, I'll rise up to the sky Just like Jesus, peace be upon him
A shadu la ilaha illa Allah There is no God but God
We came to fight the jihad and our hearts were pure and strong As death filled the air, we all offered up prayers And prepared for our martyrdom But Allah had some other plan, some secret not revealed Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack To the land of the infidel
A shadu la ilaha illa Allah A shadu la ilaha illa Allah
Read more: STEVE EARLE - JOHN WALKER'S BLUES LYRICS
exploited by fellow citizens all the time too. If you ain't served your nation in combat you ain't no patriot.
Donini is a patriot. Survival is a patriot. There are millions more just like em.
Some loudmouth in line to buy a pistol at Cabelas, draping the flag over her shoulders?
NOT A PATRIOT.
May I point out that 14% of our military members are now women and despite rules against having them in combat they have been in the last two wars. Wounded, killed, taken as POW's and now suffering PTSD the same as the men.
this is as good a place as any to repost this, which was part of the short-lived norman schwarzkopf memorial thread started by cragman and then rather promptly done away with.
patriotism? fascist states have their share of outstanding patriots. a patriot in a democracy looks full face at what's wrong with his country and tries to do something about it. i wrote this originally for a former high school classmate named howard, who had served in the marines, and apparently had a rather positive military experience. he keeps peppering our high school class reunion page with superficial sentiments such as seem to affect moosedrool. the military isn't a football team. the role of the citizen extends beyond following cheerleaders.
howard, you always look at the bright side. here's a look at the other side.
i was sitting in a local coffeeshop about a month ago with an elderly friend of mine named zan. this guy is pushing 90 years of age, but he's still got a lot of passion going. like you, he's a veteran of the military, and maybe that's what keeps him soldiering on. he will stand out on the sidewalk during the oscar show in hollywood with signs protesting israel's role in world events. a frail-looking octogenarian, he has been physically attacked. can you imagine? but there's nothing frail about his spirit.
on this particular morning at this particular coffeeshop, ironically a couple days after veteran's day, zan and i were discussing the controversial subject of chemtrails, a subject which i've found very difficult to get a handle on. a man at a nearby table overheard our conversation for a time and then introduced himself and joined us. he was curious about chemtrails too, but after a bit, it became apparent he wanted to talk about his experience in the military. he looked to be around 50 years old.
he had served, from what i gathered, in the first war against iraq. i can give you a direct quote here, because i don't think i'll ever forget what he said.
"i'm ashamed of what i did. there was a village of 1,200 people, and they told us to go in and kill everyone, and we did."
when that sort of thing happened in vietnam, it eventually got on the evening news. walter cronkite made a career for himself reporting it, but he retired to his yachting and stopped paying close attention. poor lieutenant calley had to take all the blame for the my lai massacre.
nowadays, folks back home never hear all the details about all the "good" america does, and, because our military has so cleverly become an all-volunteer affair, no one pays attention to the "reasons" for the fighting, since johnny is likely to be in junior college and the guys in uniform are often named manuel or ernesto. as an aside, you may be interested to know that the first marine fatality from los angeles in the last iraq war had been an illegal alien from guatemala two years prior to joining up.
our friend at the coffeeshop had a bit more to say. several years after his stint in the military, he was approached to serve in iraq in a civilian capacity. the pay offering was extraordinary: $35,000 a month. he asked why they just didn't have the regular military do the work, which involved basic logistical support. came a two-word reply: depleted uranium.
do you know about that? you should. they say the cancer rates in the basra area, for those who still dare live there, are off the chart. there are also reports that american tank personnel developed rectal cancer by sitting on armor which uses the stuff. when you join the military, you may find yourself giving your life for your country in unexpected ways.
if you want to know more about the "good" america does, this is just the tip of an iceberg i could be putting up here. i've refrained from putting my personal politics on this page because i think it's important to use it for establishing and re-establishing friendships. i suggest you consider that as well.
i found riley to be an unexpected ally in this. he posted this link, which was also part of what cragman zapped:
If you ain't served your nation in combat you ain't no patriot.
I haven't carried a weapon in combat. I haven't even been in the military. But I have served my country. I have worked hard to better myself and to better my country. I have worked in soup kitchens serving the poor. I have worked with gang kids to try and teach them a better way. I risked my life working with gang kids. So don't tell me I'm not a Patriot just because I haven't served in the military.
I have also done work to improve the relations that we have with our neighbors. I went to Mexico and spent a year building an orphanage. They knew I was from America and they appreciated me coming to help.
There are other things that I have done. I have marched against oppression. Marched against illegal wars. I have stood up for our military and done the best that I could to try and protect them from the war mongers.
I didn't carry a gun to try and stop the war. Was I wrong?
You say I'm not a patriot. I respect your right to say that. I respectfully submit that I am very much a Patriot and you can kiss my ass Dingus if you ever try to lord that over me.
Sincerely,
John Musgrove
P.S.. I have done a lot to help our returning Veterans readjust to life as a civilian. I have given away the last nickel in my pocket more then once to help a veteran. A veteran our country turned its back on.
John Musgrove I applaud your service to your communities and your fellow citizens. But you're no patriot. It seems you don't understand the origins of the word - but I'll sum it up for you: if you're a patriot so is Rush Limbaugh.
DMT
ps. I mean you no disrespect. But patriots are born in combat.
pa·tri·ot [pey-tree-uh t, -ot or, esp. British, pa-tree-uh t] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2.
a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3.
( initial capital letter ) Military . a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 miles (60 km) and a 200-pound (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.
Decency doesn't equal patriot. Doing good deeds, selflessly serving your community, doesn't equal patriot. There are other words, good words, that apply; patriot isn't it. I think our modern world has cheapened the word beyond any real meaning and I don't buy it.
Again I mean you no disrespect nor do I in any way think less of your accomplishments. Btw, I am no patriot either and I place your deeds and community service far above my own. You DO have my respect.
Toting a combat rifle in combat to defend your country at the risk of your own life is patriotism
the phrase "to defend your own country" is the key here
so if someone believes that North Korea circa 1950, and Vietnam, and Iraq circa 2003 were NOT a threat to American soil, were the soldiers who fought there truly being "patriotic"
and if US soldiers fighting "imperialist wars" and "oil wars" at the behest of the out-of-control military industrial complex and US multi-national corporations are patriotic...are they (we) just as misguided as German soldiers/citizens were during the Nazi regime???
"to protect and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
A person can't do everything. Some defend against foreign enemies, others defend against domestic enemies.
Poverty is a domestic enemy.
Not supporting our Veterans is a domestic enemy that undermines the strength of our country.
I have fought against both of those.
Maybe we need a Dingus Dictionary. That way we all can be on the same page. Words are how we communicate. If one can change the definition of a word to suit themselves, then communication becomes nearly impossible.
If you ain't served your nation in combat you ain't no patriot.
I'd be interested, DMT, to know why you limit patriotism to someone who hase not only served in the military, but seen combat.
According to Dictionary.com, the term "patriot" is defines as such:
pa·tri·ot
[pey-tree-uh t, -ot or, esp. British, pa-tree-uh t] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2.
a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3.
( initial capital letter ) Military . a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 miles (60 km) and a 200-pound (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.
I don't accept those emasculated, watered-downed and co-opted terms. patriotism was born of blood and revolution. Librarians, politicians (no matter how many they ordered to their deaths) are not patriots. Declaring love for one's country makes one a patriot? Lah dee dah.
By his definition, only George Washington is the ONLY patriotic American President.
And also, almost every member of congress is NOT a patriot.
Correct you are.
I am trolling you. Every post is s troll. I am also smart, AND a peacenik. I hate war.
I am also perfectly serious. I don't care if you neverserveds get your doilies deranged by it either. A partiot FIGHTS for her country, accept no substitutes.
Watching Patton does not make one a patriot. Posting left wing sh#t on the internet... not patriot. Giving away some dental care or dropping a buck in the salvation army bucket? Compassionate and kind to be sure, but not a patriot.
Many patriots were killers, out and out. The may have done far more harm to their country than good, over all. But they were still patriots.
Sorry of your lack of service causes you discomfort but if it does bother you its your load to bear, not mine.
I fear, DMT, that you took for gospel something you were told by those who held authority over you in the military; something that was told to you by design - to instill a seed in your mind that, because you went out to kill or be killed, that made you a higher caliber of citizen than others.
If so - then you fell for just another brand of religion yourself.
I don't consider myself a patriot. I will fight for my life pretty much only so long as I still have Teddy to defend and care for. Once he passes, I have no obligation to another being. So I guess I am a Tediot!
Patriot... I guess it is born of an allegience to the patriachy. Hmmm...my country, my land, is Mother Nature. Not some group of old men..
Its born of combat, period. Ain't gonna let no neverserveds claim it without a rassling match. The majority of those wankers posting to Dr Fs Bullshit Show are not patriots they're the opposite - carpetbaggers on the backs of real patriots, all the while ignoring the blood upon which their beds are made -liberal and conservative alike.
If you ain't served in combat, don't disrespect them that did by claiming to be a patriot. That's like accepting a purple heart because the General's bookcase fell on you while moving from West Point to Ft Benning during the time of war. Charlatans.
I love America for a lot of things, mostly for opportunity
I hate America for a lot of things, mostly its ignorant, selfish people
But I hate blind nationalism most of all
I've literally travelled "around the world in 180 days," and have been to 35 countries. I've seen a lot of good and lot of really bad. A lot of good people stuck in really bad circumstances with no opportunity.
That's a nice sweater I have one the same color, in my suitcase goes with my eyes ;-). I received many comments about it in NYC from women and men alike.
Wanna walk in my shoes? Talk a walk on the wild side. All the colored girls sang do, do do di do, do do di doo. (do do di do, do do di do)
Bored today, Dingus?
Phukkin' Ghost cracks me up! Free bag of green chile for you bro.
And breasts!
( * )( * )
:-) I have anxiety issues on flights home after long weeks. F*#king with outraged neverserveds about their unfulfilled desire to be patriots is therapeutic. Being absolutely 100% correct makes it even more fun.
Patriotism is a smoke show. Seems that on this forum, a patriot is someone that agrees with a posters political beliefs, conservative or liberal. I think our govt is a corrupt entity that is populated with politicians that are largely in it for their own narcissistic satisfaction. I do pay my taxes with out complaint so I must be a patriot.
I do pay my taxes with out complaint so I must be a patriot.
That's what Bluering used to say, and it never failed to rile Dingus. And it somewhat confused me, because if the qualification for being a patriotic American is paying taxes to the US government, then that makes me a patriotic American, too. But how can that be, when I'm not American at all? If foreigners who come to your country and take your jobs and steal your women (or men) are just as patriotic as Bluering, what does that say about Bluering. Or you?
Man, am I lucky I haven’t started “I am a Patriot” thread!
You almost got me confused :)
I love America because… Forget it! Love does not need justification.
BUT:
I came to the USA with my wife, two kids and about $3,000. I started working painting houses while my wife was looking for a job. After a few months she found a temporary job as a lab technician. After another few months she was hired as a scientist. Then I found a job in a lab. I started from washing dishes. Soon I found a job as a chemist, and after three years got promoted to a manager. All of that happened because other people helped us. There were Americans and there were complete strangers.
Here, on ST people show their sympathy and kindness to others all the time, including me.
So, forgive my affection, STFUAGC!
My combat ribbon was sold to pay for my next climbing trip. Instead being barked at by some a**hole military dude, I was plotting how to finance my next trip to ( fill in cool climbing destination). At the peak of my dirtbaggery, I moved to Chamonix! GASP
I totally am not a patriot. I also enjoy playing and watching soccer/futbol. I should probably move to Canada or something.
Hey Ghost, what hockey team does your wife play for?
Well Bruce, if you think I get confused about things patriotic, her situation is even crazier. The one country that doesn't play a part in it though, is Canada.
Hmmmm, I can think of a few million Korea, Nam, Gulf 1, Gulf 2 and Afghanistan vets who would disagree.............
Well Bruce, if you think I get confused about things patriotic, her situation is even crazier. The one country that doesn't play a part in it though, is Canada.
Ok, well PM me so I can understand! You still get free chile though.
I did a few years in AK, during the time when Caribou Barbie ran and won the Governorship. People think she was an inept clown (and they are right), but they should get to know the guy she beat in the primary, John Binkley, a local Fairbanks family-money guy who was an even bigger as#@&%e and moron. I had to deal with that goober and his dipshit brother in the course of my job. Sarah looked like Rhodes Scholar material next to these entitled buffoons.
A person can't do everything. Some defend against foreign enemies, others defend against domestic enemies.
Poverty is a domestic enemy.
Not supporting our Veterans is a domestic enemy that undermines the strength of our country.
I have fought against both of those.
i guess you assume our country is strong, moose. i think it's weak. oh, it's become the bully of the world, but its people are cowering, self-absorbed, ignorant, and quite happy about it. except, of course, when chickens come home to roost.
your fighting seems to be in the past tense. a patriot would look around and find lots to keep fighting about. freedom isn't free, and it's being strangled every day while you "patriots" pose and posture.
the fallacy of the militarism i hear being voiced here is that one must have a war. without a war, there can be no patriotism, no heroism, might as well not have a country. from my point of view, the vietnam era saw the real patriots coming to the fore, using our national media, our democratic processes and our cultural debate to end a war that was a piece of sh#t being shoved down our throats for reasons no one could make sense of. america won the vietnam war, but it wasn't the unthinking soldiers who enlisted and took the orders to kill for no good reason. the american people ended that war, the first war and only war ever ended by a people in the history of the world. frankly, i think it's something to be very, very proud of.
but then the spin doctors got ahold of it and no one cares to remember it that way at all. the mandatory draft was abolished, the military turned into the province of wannabe rambos (we certainly have our share of them on supertopo), dummies who can't make it into junior college, and illegal aliens. yes, illegal aliens, as i noted above. while the tea party people are grousing about losing their w.a.s.p. culture, the army fills up with second-, first- and sometimes wetback-generation latinos who think it's a great inside track to the american mainstream. you can bet they leave their critical thinking and their sense of duty to anything as abstract as the constitution way back at the port of entry. what el padron asks, el padron gets.
i put you in that category, andrzej. i will tell you point blank that i think that foreigners coming over here looking at a corrupt system through rosy-colored glasses, thinking they're in a big candy store, is the last thing america needs. this country is sick and it needs to cure itself. if you like it better than the communist system which used to infect poland, take those glasses off and it will become more and more familiar.
Patriots? Yes, some of the best. What would we do without them.
Credit: lostinshanghai
“From January 1997 until being sworn in as the 21st Secretary of Defense in January 2001, Rumsfeld served as Chairman of Gilead Sciences, Inc. Gilead Sciences is the developer of Tamiflu (Oseltamivir), which is used in the treatment of bird flu.[36] As a result, Rumsfeld's holdings in the company grew significantly when avian flu became a subject of popular anxiety during his later term as Secretary of Defense. Following standard practice, Rumsfeld recused himself from any decisions involving Gilead, and he directed the Pentagon's General Counsel to issue instructions outlining what he could and could not be involved in if there were an avian flu pandemic and the Pentagon had to respond.[37][38][39]”
Remember all those $$$$$$$$ added to the debt for profit or is it death for profit? A Patriot to heart.
Credit: lostinshanghai
Oliver “Goofy” North? He is currently on the board of NRA.
Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, was a secretive "scenario and drill" developed by the United States federal government to suspend the United States Constitution, declare martial law, place military commanders in charge of state and local governments, and detain large numbers of American citizens who are deemed to be "national security threats", in the event that the President declares a "State of National Emergency". The plan states events causing such a declaration would be widespread U.S. opposition to a U.S. military invasion abroad, such as if the United States were to directly invade Central America.[1][2][3][4][5] To combat what the government perceived as "subversive activities", the plan also authorized the military to direct ordered movements of civilian populations at state and regional levels.[6]
Was written by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North. True Patriot for sure. All those US weapons left in Iragi hands to kill our own and will continue. Wait you are thinking that was Latin America what has he do with Irag? He is a Patriot, his kind of patriotism always in secrets and lies.
Credit: lostinshanghai
How about Pat Robertson? who gave funds to North and some comrades many years back and still does: Dictates for THEOCRACY; by all means the greatest Patriot. He tried once as Presidential candidate. Wonder why God did not warn him of the disaster? He has not admitted it but sure he agrees with “Sandy Hook truthers.” Much like the “9/11 truthers,” who cast doubt on the veracity of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, these people say the school shootings were a massive hoax or conspiracy perpetrated by the government [Obama] or others [Muslims].
Credit: lostinshanghai
And his dead buddy, well actually they never got along but wanted an agenda for a NEW AMERICA.
"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The Churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them." - "America Can be Saved," January 1, 1979
Credit: lostinshanghai
President Cheney, for sure, He has to be one, as soon as he dies everyone will rejoice in saying the most dedicated and devoted man to this Country.
Another Patriot:
Credit: lostinshanghai
And another:
Credit: lostinshanghai
One that needed his wife Nancy to have cards read from the dead to make decisions, some too late.
AH! Yes there must be more: Coors as in the beer,
Yes! true Patriots, where would we be without them?
I'm glad you're living out the American dream but the first thing that strikes me about your story is that you have done well because you received a good education before you got here. One does not become a lab technician or a chemist overnight. In fact, of all the U.S. military students I've had during a 37 year teaching career for a university that gives classes to the military overseas, the best prepared were those from the former Soviet bloc. Whatever else they did over there, they provided excellent education.
I think you sound very racist, intimating that only unqualified minorities join the military. In my experience, the minority students are motivated and hard working, and appreciate the military because they know it's about the only American institution that gives them a truly equal chance. In my experience, it's mostly lower class white guys who joined because they couldn't do anything else. Most important, there are plenty of self sacrificing and idealistic men and women in our military (true patriots I would say) and they come from all races, religions, and ethnic groups.
If you want to insult your fellow Americans, go after all the ignorant, apathetic and spoiled folks back home who party on while others sacrifice. Whether those sacrifices are based on correct principles or not, depends on the politicians that the ignorant elect. The average military person is well aware that they are often called upon to defend useless and corrupt policies in the interests of the rich and powerful. They deal with it by trying to maintain their personal honor and their unit's survival in spite of all that.
There are of course potential problems with an all volunteer military, especially in a democracy. We may or may not beat the historic trend to end up with a military dictatorship as a result. If we do, it will be because the civilians abdicated all responsibility for maintaining a civilized society and sank in their own corruption, not because our military wanted power.
More immediately, military technology is so sophisticated these days, it takes way more training to master than a two year draftee has time and motivation for. Even the Marine Corps is demanding that all of its members take college courses to try to stay on top of it. The average military person of whatever ethnic group and background is far more technologically adept than the average American.
i didn't say minorities, jan. i said NON-CITIZENS.
military service is a burden which, in all fairness, ought to be borne equally by all strata of society. i think your sentiments, to the contrary, belie a more sinister racism, to the tune of let the minorities risk their lives while the white kids stay in college.
i speak from what i've seen. when mariko became a citizen, we went down to the swearing-in ceremony, a room full of many kinds of people at the courthouse in downtown los angeles. they "honored" those in uniform by letting them come up first.
wait a minute--in uniform? not yet a citizen? some of them had rank as high as sergeant.
the first marine body bag to come back to los angeles from the last gulf war got a write-up in the los angeles times. the fellow had been an illegal from guatemala two years before, sneaked in here to live with his sister, then figured the military would be a good deal.
want more? there are a whole bunch in this city that are fairly outraged by many aspects of recruiting. and one report--i have no way of confirming it, but it's just as outrageous as the other stuff--says that recruiters go down to tijuana high school and address the student body thus: "if you've got a green card, i've got a deal for you."
oh, it's quite a tea party, but they aren't just anchor babies, they're anchor soldiers.
but i'll give you one more statistic i remember quite well, from the first gulf war, under king george bush the first. congress anguished over that one, but like the batch of lackeys that they all are, voted yes, lest they be perceived as "unpatriotic". that's what this thread is about, no?--the "patriotism" of a polish immigrant who thinks this is the peachiest country in the world.
how many people are there in congress? a hundred senators and four hundred or so in the house of reps? of this grand group voting to send american young people to risk their lives, only two had sons or daughters in the military.
What can I say? That I am in pain when I see ignorance, negligence, selfishness, pride, prejudice, fanaticism, and myriad other flaws? Yes I am. Should I hate America for that? Of course not. In my life I found more good than bad, even in Poland under Soviet occupation. Sure, I've been cheated and fooled. I am old and I've seen it all. Am I naive still believing in people? Well, so far my philosophy served me well. I would rather take a chance and trust a stranger then trust nobody. Sounds bitter and lonely to me.
One more thing, the government does not define the country.
Edit: I have no opinion on patriotism other than that the word is overused.
I already wrote twice I am no patriot. So either you have adhd or you simply don't understand the written word. I suspect neither, rather it seems you are very emo, quick to judge and even quicker to take offense. Oh well, that's certainly your perogitive.
And you are correct I am not a patriot despite direct service to my country. Neither are you. Now I fully expect you to continue to make this personal, again in keeping with your posting history.
Sean hannity claims the title patriot. He dodged service too. Hey! Maybe you can join fox news!
you read what you want, brennan, and ignore the rest.
sen. eugene mccarthy of minnesota, known for his liberal sentiments, surprised a few people by fighting the all-volunteer military as best he could during the 1970s, a losing battle. he knew what it would do to the country. it has made the military into an elite, not a citizen's military, and now we have people, as he predicted, right here on this thread claiming to be more citizen than the rest of us. that's about the most un-american thing i can imagine. that cheapens this country, a country that had a great governmental heritage and a spirit of common decency. might have been a light to the world. maybe we blew it, but i guess i think we still ought to try to pull it together.
moosedrool, you were just grandstanding to your audience here, expecting a love fest. you just don't know america very well yet. i hope you stick around and learn to roll up your sleeves.
Most things in life are personal Dingus. Its too bad you don't understand that. Its how men can sit back and send others to war. They don't make it personal enough.
You and I disagree with the definition of Patriot. It appears we wont ever agree. but I wont have you insult me just because I didn't serve in the military. I served my country. I did it whole heartedly. I did good.
You want an easy definition of Patriot so that people like Rush limbaugh can't co opt the word to describe themselves. I believe it has a much more profound and less black and white definition. That makes it easier for people to call themselves Patriots, but that doesn't make them a Patriot.
I do love America but I think anything worth much can stand up to a critique.
Regardless -
America presents the best example and template of law through the American Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Canada repatriated our constitution from Britain in 1982.
1982 !
We finally had some local, legal traction against the federal police henchmen that are the RCMP.
Canada is known for civil responsibility and government. That only works if there is federal honesty. There is an incredible amount of judicial stupidity that cost some innocent people years of their lives by being wrongfully convicted in order to save some socially presumptuous reputations.
The accused were simply not quite on if they had to be scrutinized at a nice dinner party. How one holds a fork and the state of their shoes became a non issue when our constitution was federally ratified.
It made the comfortable itch and the judicial branch squirm but the result is people are willing to say GFYS here and make the state explain themselves.
The American Constitution and Bill of Rights did set the worm turning up north in the face of the weight of state offering caution...
I don't know why you are so surprised or offended that we have non citizens in our military. As two Nigerians in the Marine Corps told me, "we too want the good life, and this was the way to get it". How is that different than the people who stowed away on ships in the past to get here, who swim the Rio Grande, float from Cuba or Haiti, or came on 7 year indentures to build things like the transcontinental railroad? They want to come, and they are willing to risk something for it.
As for white kids being in college while the military is turned over to the non citizens and ethnic minorities, you've obviously not been exposed to some of the trailer trash in our military or you wouldn't think they're all in college. We give them the opportunity for a free college education while in the service and with the exception of the the Air Force, a basically middle class institution, most every classroom is filled with minorities looking to get ahead while the white guys drink beer and complain. Likewise, white women outnumber white men in college nationwide. Whose fault is that? The government's?
I'm a big fan of Chris Hedges by the way, and am no supporter of the American empire. However, things are never simple dichotomies.
So dingus, I'm fuzzy on this patriot thing. Likewise I don't really know what "battle born" means.
Example;
My dad flew in the nose turret of a B-24 over Japan during World War II. He was a weather officer. He never shot at anyone. As far as I know he was never shot at. He did fly over major cities (like Nagasaki) and report back to the powers that be about the weather conditions, info they used to decide when and where to send bomber missions.later he taught me to drive a clutch on a '72 Toyota Corona mark II Was he a patriot, was that battle born?
His older brother, my uncle, that I'm named after, joined the army to ride horses around Hyde Park in Chicago, in the cavalary. When the war started they mechanized the cavalry. Oops, no more tall boots and riding crops. They put him in a tank and sent him to the battle of the bulge. When his higher ups were obliterated he got a field promotion to Colonel. He shot at people and was shot at in turn.
Now if I'm following this, he Was a patriot because of the shooting part, right?
In the US Army, soldiers wear the insignia of their current unit on the left shoulder of the uniform.
There is no unit insignia on the right shoulder -- unless a soldier has seen combat. Combat veterans wear the insignia of that unit where they first saw combat on the right side, and this never changes.
The "patch on the right shoulder" is considered to be a badge of honor. It is a way to easily identify what soldiers are combat veterans.
When I served in the late 1980s, a patch on the right soldier was uncommon. Only Vietnam vets had them, and younger soldiers generally had a lot of respect for these guys.
Soldiers who participated in the Grenada "invasion" and the Panama thing were authorized to wear the patch on the right shoulder. Since these were small operations, there were relatively few soldiers that wore them. One could easily tell who went to Grenada because they has a right patch and they were under 30. It was a strange contrast - the young soldiers who saw perhaps a day of very light combat wearing the same badge as Vietnam vets who had experienced the worst of war.
These days the right patch is pretty common - I see it all the time in the airports when I travel. I've heard that the army has lowered the standard for who can wear it -- they've loosened the definition of "combat" veteran. Now I believe all you have to do is be in a unit deployed in a combat theater, even if you are nowhere near any fighting.
The same is true for the Combat Infantryman's Badge - an award that used to mean one has seen serious infantry combat for an extended length of time. Recently, an Army captain I was sitting next to on the plane told me that today "all you have to do is get shot at once" to wear the CIB.
Does the "right shoulder patch" indicate that a soldier is a patriot? I guess it depends on the war and the time and the place.
If you ain't served your nation in combat you ain't no patriot.
Hardly, of course this excludes all women.
and since the United States hasn't fought an enemy that was actually any real threat to our freedom for a long time, I don't much believe that volunteering to fight for oil or strategic power conveys much love for country. Some people just want to fight or don't have a better means of employment. (some may be patriots)
I think somebody like Daniel Ellsberg or even Aron Swartz qualify more as patriots. Those who woud risk their welfare fighting the corruption of the system so that our government doesn't become the enemy of the country are heros
i apologize, brennan. i didn't realize you were looking at america through canadian-colored glasses.
jan, we've tangled on this before. i think your "reasoning" proves my very point.
the military shouldn't be a free-for-all for foreigners to get on the inside track in america. likewise, no citizen should be exempt from military service. no one. many european countries operate this way.
i'm raising this issue because we see the other foot falling right here. if you don't serve, you're not a "patriot". the next step is: you have no right to criticize. but i guess guys from nigeria and kids from tijuana high school do. and i guarantee you, they never will.
Look I understand yall want your particular heros to be thought of patriots. Well you just can't have everything, sorry.
Patriots fight. There are many ways to fight. Lemme ask yall... are the drone pilots at Beal AFB who remote control target and kill carloads and houses full of people a half a world away.... patriots?
General's clerk who had a bookcase fall on him, 2000 miles from the nearest conflict... patriot?
Public-fund teat sucking congressperson who never risked so much as a hangnail, much less her life and liberty, for her country... but she helped pass a giant weapons platform bill... patriot?
How about a president who once wrote that he loathed the military but saw fit to start a couple of wars himself (without any personal risk whatsoever).... patriot?
How about all the silly chicken littles who ran around after 911 passing f*#ktard laws and posting guards at wilderness dams and sh#t... patriots?
How about that weather officer? I dunno, was he in combat, in harms way? Did he risk everything, for his country?
Yes, thinking back on minutepersons and such.... say, was Betsy Ross a patriot by virtue of her sewing?
Was Patrick Henry a patriot by virtue of his big mouth? Did HE fight? Did He actually risk everything or did he merely cajole others to do the fighting? Was he a Rush Limbaugh of his day? (I dunno, actually, that's why I'm asking)
I'm sick of some fat f*#k never served sonofabitch declaring himself 'patriot' because he tears up whenever he hears the national anthem, votes a certain way (whatever way, this is cross aisle), maybe has a closet full of assault rifles, and likes to talk tough, but never put in a day of service for his country (other than self-serve that is), never risked his life for his fellow citizens? Charlatans!
Our country has been at war? No. It has NOT. Our military has been at war, most everyone else has been at the grocery and Starbucks and TOTALLY IGNORING the day to day goings on of that war. Those people back home, ignoring their 'professional army' - ARE NOT PATRIOTS. If that includes you... TOUGH SH#T. I hope you take the words seriously. If you are insulted by them... GOOD.
By DMT's very narrow definition of a patriot, Betsy Ross is a mere seamstress yet Timothy McVeigh qualifies.
Today is that neverserved's birthday, Ben Franklin.
Patriot....liberal....socialist, the right wing knows that a lot of the American electorate only has the intellectual capacity to deal with slogans and sound bites. Over time they have cleverly either co opted (patriotism) or denigrated (liberal) terms to help foist their agenda on an un sophisticted public.
Randisi,, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL.. And since youve no need for america,, that includes this site.. Buh-bye.. Let the chinese climbing forums have your presence.
Randisi,, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL.. And since youve no need for america,, that includes this site.. Buh-bye.. Let the chinese climbing forums have your presence.
Since we've now established that we'll never establish just what "Patriot" means, we can move on to the next burning question: Has Ron Anderson ever been outside the United States of America?
His latest outburst seems to imply a fairly limited understanding of the world...
Randisi,, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL.. And since youve no need for america,, that includes this site.. Buh-bye.. Let the chinese climbing forums have your presence.
Randisi,, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL.. And since youve no need for america,, that includes this site.. Buh-bye.. Let the chinese climbing forums have your presence.
Bwahahahahaah he trolled the sh#t out of you!
Not trolling. It's true.
China in the year and a half I've been here has been way better to me than the US was for the last 20 years.
Sorry if you can't handle the truth. China is the new land of opportunity.
Was in Guangdong for ten days in 2001 working on product development at a footwear factory. Never saw a single living thing besides humans- not even cats, dogs or birds....way depressing.
Stupid Americans think their country is the only country on the planet that's any good ......
True, but then stupid people in a lot of countries think their country is the only country on the planet that's any good. Americans don't have a monopoly on stupid, despite the evidence to the contrary often visible on this forum.
Randisi, those cats and dogs must be frightened. The chinese have a saying- they will eat anything with four legs except the table, and anything on two legs except grandmom.
Was in the Alps above Interlaken for a week in summer 2003 for rehab (for lack of a better word). Never saw a single human being, only the most intense presentation of flora and fauna that I had ever seen... way enspiriting.
On one hand, patriotism is a good thing, mainly because IT'S ROOTED IN YOUR FAMILY, the most important aspect of culture in virtually any land.
If you can't support your family, even though you disagree with "their" attitude in general, try to ignore that as much as possible and concentrate on the relationship you have with EACH ONE on an individual basis. It's practice for the world outside, and it's something many kids don't get to learn because of faulty or non-existent parenting, IMO.
On the other hand, some symbolism is involved here, because the nation as a whole is NOT A FAMILY. It's a massive tribal conflagration, where we try to get along, but PATRIOTISM makes us blind to the needs of others. It's a manufacured word the gov'ts need. I have little use for it, myself.
Don't confuse the issue, Jim. The Crusades also brought us the Knights Templar
and the start of the modern banking system. And we all know what a boon
that has been, right?
I'm sick of some fat f*#k never served sonofabitch declaring himself 'patriot' because he tears up whenever he hears the national anthem, votes a certain way (whatever way, this is cross aisle), maybe has a closet full of assault rifles, and likes to talk tough, but never put in a day of service for his country (other than self-serve that is), never risked his life for his fellow citizens? Charlatans!
Me too.. but thats still no reason to oversimplify a complex word.
Look I understand yall want your particular heros to be thought of patriots. Well you just can't have everything, sorry.
You understand nothing, but you can certainly pretend that you do.
What sets me off about you and set me off on this subject is how you make pronouncements about what the rest of us believe. I don't like that kind of conversaiton and thats why I went on the prod. I went on the prod and when Terri asked you a simple question, you belittled her. So maybe Norton is right. You are just a simple minded troll.
Now you can say in your imperious tone.. "I told you so" since I "won't let it go".
Meh.. thought you were bigger then this. Your definition is the cowards way out. You don't want to have to stand in judgment of someone so you come up with a simple definition so that you don't have to, then you declare your definition to be the brave one. Too funny..
Good luck with that Dingus.. I appreciate a lot of what you do, but not when you get on your imperial throne.
Your proclamation is no different then the Christians who say you just have to declare Jesus as your lord and savior and you are saved. They don't change a thing about their behavior or attitude, but just declare themselves saved. Its the easy way out and it doesn't cut it.
All this bickering with zero chance for clarity or resolution. A well meaning thread has gone down the drain. You must all be Stupid Americans and likely are commie terrorist bast*@!s. Personally, I prefer the expression Stupid Humans. I regularly come across stupid people from a variety of countries. My inner Braun let's me make this determination on a case by case basis.
Too funny.. you complain about my reading comprehension. You don't even know who you attack. Just blind attacks. Try rereading my posts. You might learn something.
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all the rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Cesar."
I love America but let's improve it geographically.
Trade Texas to Mexico for Baja California.
Allow Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and West Virginia to secede and and form a Southern Theocracy.....we tried folks but they don't want to join the 21st century. Come to think of it they rejected the 20th too.
Make a grand National Park out of Utah, Wyoming and Idaho. Deport most of the inhabitants of those States to the Southern Theocracy (they'll love it) and keep some of the more enlightened ones to administer the Park.
Annex British Columbia.....sure there will be some whining but it will settle down over time.
Thanks....you're on to something. The Yukon is a natural treasure and Alberta has a bit of the Rockies and a lot of oil shale. A number of Alberta residents, however, will be required to move to the Southern Theocracy.
Personally, i think NV should TAKE the east side all the way to lone pine- and give VEGAS to Cali since it is anyway. We will take alpine, mono, inyo counites and cali gets clark..
when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life
But then in 1777, there wasn't much else in England but London.
However, Dr Sam, seven years there and I would never ever live in London again.
Now, where we were, oh yes patriotism.
In 1974, a 17-year-old going on 18, looking to avoid the draft (veterinary school at University of Saskatoon, as I had studied two summer schools as a vet aide and worked for vets), but my family have been Americans since 1640, I couldn't do it.
So a long-haired anti-war teenager approaches the Marine recruiting sergeant in Concord (CA), looking to become a medic. They said that if you volunteer you had a better chance of choosing a specialty, than if you were drafted.
"We don't have medics, we use Navy corpsmen".
Oh, the Navy did not appeal to me. No offense to those that served in the Navy.
Also the comment about devaluing medals. One of my nephews received a Gulf War medal and the only thing he did was sit on a ship in the Gulf. A medal for sitting on a ship out of harm's way? He left the Navy as they were downsizing and he had a 'past' with crack.
Whereas my godson/nephew, who left the Marines a short while ago, two (seven-month) tours of duty in Afghanistan, a point man on patrol in 'regular' firefights...
So, though I believe Dingus is winding us up, is my nephew a patriot? And which nephew? The one sitting on his can in a can, or the one under fire?
Just cause a person served or didn't serve doesn't make you a patriot or a USA lover. Plenty of instances of immigrants from all kinds of places seem to love it more than a lot of native born folks. I knew a guy that went in to avoid jail (Train Robbery was the charge, but they were jacking stereos out of new cars being transported on trains back before they had them locked up well). The guys name was...wait for it, ....
....Jesse...heheh (AKA Jesse who was an actual relative of the outlaw Jesse James).
Preempting Piton Ron: Me below with incorrect fingering. (haha, I said it first!) It was only recently I learned that you shouldn't keep yer finger wrapped on the trigger all the time. I always figured you'd want it ready to spray and pray. Y else load all dem bullets in there.
Was he a patriot, was that battle born?
Let us know!