help climbers visciously attacked in Peru

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
I don't see enough rocks to make a 2" tall roadblock... let alone a 2 foot tall roadblock.

I also don't see cliffs on either side of the road.

Do you?

Why would the roadblock be behind them? Lol.

DMT
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Maybe there is a cliff ahead, behind the photog?
I also don't see broken glass on the seats from the rock that came through the passenger window, or pieces of glass still stuck in the window caseing?
Or on the ground but it very well could be on the ground on the side of the truck we can't see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Dingus, you know enough about geology to make a reasonable inference there.

Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
In the beginning I was trying to ignore this thread, but then let myself get sucked in. I was surprised that people jumped to the conclusion so quickly that the whole account was a hoax and wouldn't even give them the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know (and still don't know) what happened, but their story did not sound as unlikely as many here claimed.

Then people said they weren't even climbers This is false. They have climbing pics all over their blog.

I don't think some people care about the truth.

The only detailed accounts we have is from the Wolfroms and I wish we had a police report, or newspaper reports by journalists that spent more time interviewing the people in the village. However, according to the Peru papers, the mayor of the village and the authorities believe that they were attacked.

The excuse is that the villagers thought they might have been cattle thieves. But how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru?

Good points. One of the few things we can safely conclude is that they were in fact attacked, even if many people posting here seem to think the attack was justified.
In addition to how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru, I'd like to know how many cattle-thief gangs are composed mostly of women.
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
"Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy..."

haha you make a good point mechrist, i have done donuts on the icey Canadian highways before at night not realizing a cliff existed until I got out of the car; this sleuthing behind a computer is fun.

And I am not totally against their story at all, but unlike the USA, in Peru they are guilty until proven innocent, and this happened in Peru.
Also not to flog this but, how come we never saw the planes being carted away from the Pentagon or that empty farmers field? We have a right to ask. Some of us travel to Peru and have a right to know what happened.
Maybe goggle maps would find us that 'cliff'?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
this sleuthing behind a computer is fun

Just like the movies!

Here's a view looking the other way... I don't see any cliffs, but now I see A SINGLE rock bigger than 4" I would expect AT LEAST one photo to show AT LEAST a small portion of the "roadblock" or at least SOME materials lying around that could be used to build it.



The ditch doesn't seem that hard to avoid by driving on the other side... the one with the big cliff...





Does it really matter what the locals thought they were doing? They didn't speak the language, were drinking, refused to show ID, and were most likely pricks. You are likely to get run out of damn near any small town damn near anywhere for acting like that.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
This big adventure took place just off the main highway to Machu Pichu, which gets millions and millions of tourons, like niagra falls or the grand canyon. A few years ago they were going to build an airport near Cuzco because that's where the tourons go, and they're not interested in Lima.

For whatever reason, these guys didn't look like tourists to the locals who felt threatend by them. Did they think they were cattle rustlers? I doubt it. They were just paranoid after being robbed repeatedly. The gringos didn't look like tourons, who don't rent cars to go to Machu Pichu. And no tourist drives their own car from the US to Peru. That's what's so unique about this and why the Peruvians would think its strange. They didn't know who they were, and didn't like it that the gringos tried to run when asked for ID. Then there was a mob psychology that kicked in once they started using pepper spray to try to escape. Things just escalated as one mistake after another was made. The story seems pretty simple and not a lot of the facts are disputed. It just depends whether you feel sorry for them or not. I don't.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.

Just guessing, but I see a number of reasons why the locals may have attacked them and then beat them:

1. Not showing ID and driving away. The locals might have seen this as being disrespectful and also as evidence that they were guilty of something.
2. Trying to drive through the crowd and around the barricade. The locals could have felt that they were in danger of being hit by the truck and were being "attacked" by it. In the U.S. police have shot and killed people just for trying to run barricades. The police claim that they were being assaulted with a "deadly weapon" (the vehicle) and acted in self-defense.
3. Pepper-spraying the locals.
4. The forming a of a "mob mentality" among the local hotheads. When an event like this goes down, in Peru or anywhere, you can count on it drawing the local hotheads, just like dog poo attracts flies. The less hotheaded people stay away.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
There is a very good possibility that 'cattle thieves' are women- when I have been to Peru/Bolivia many women assume the roll of tending the cattle, building houses, I even hiked 20km into the back country once and found the sheep herders to be young girls that should be in school.
Many Shining Path members were women, so just because that roll is not normal legally tending or illegally stealing cattle in the USA, doesn't mean it doesn't happen down there.

I was shot at with a handgun down there from a car becuase my friend 'fingered' them, weird stuff does happen from the locals you may not expect.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
We'll at least no one is claiming this is a Nigerian scam anymore, at least we have come that far.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Incredible. Just...incredible.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Not that I have an opinion on any of the who did what, but when I had first read the quote where the local constable(or whomever it was) said they thought they were (a word which translated to cattle rustlers), I wondered if that same word might be used to describe people who come to kidnap children to then sell for adoption. Or worse(I just discovered, which you will, to below).


From: The 10 Reasons Children Go Missing, on MissingChildrenInternational
Link: http://missingchildreninternational.org/articles/ten_reasons_why_children_disappear.html

4. The world we live in is no stranger to one of the biggest reasons many of our children disappear without a trace. Many children are abducted and sold for body parts throughout the United States, Central America, South America and Europe. The Internet has become one of the greatest sources of business and the organized underground business is one of the most successful businesses anywhere in the world.

Can you imagine having the need of life and searching the Internet and finding a broker who can find you the organ of your choice? Here in the U.S.A., in Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica, anywhere in Central, North and South America, anywhere for a price you can pay for and get the organ of your choice. If you don't believe it, search the net right here right now in Orange County, New York or anyplace in the world.

Many missing children are abducted and sold for these body parts. This is a multi-million dollar a year business. Be careful when your child is talking to a friendly little girl in a chat room. The Internet is worldwide and sometimes deceptive. The chat room your child uses could be somewhere in Mexico or New York, India, The Middle east or Korea . Your child could be talking to anyone, anywhere with the touch of a button, so close.


I can EASILY see a village kicking ass and kicking it HARD if they feared those people were there to steal their precious sons and daughters.

Those people don't look like cattle thieves but "two nice young ladies" to lure an innocent child and a stronger male for making the grab....


I really had no idea about the body parts thing.



OFF - TOPIC
And while we're at it, take a read on the #5 reason children disappear, according to that link.

Next time you see that pretty young blond at the local tittie bar, or in the whorehouse, for those who use them - look into the eyes of that young lady and see if you can any longer tell yourself they are choosing to be there.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Happie, that could be a variation on the Pishtaco myth.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2033922&msg=2041850#msg2041850
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
I was shot at with a handgun down there from a car becuase my friend 'fingered' them, weird stuff does happen from the locals you may not expect.

"fingered them"? Does this mean giving them the middle-finger? That could get you shot in parts of the U.S also.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
GraniteClimber - Can you clarify what you meant by a "variation?" I read about the Pistacho, but my link refers to modern criminal activity, and the link is coming from an international aid organization. Stealing children is no myth.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

U.S.: 4.8 intentional homicides per 100,000.
Peru: 10.3 intentional homicides per 100,000.

So there are more than twice as many intentional homicides in Peru then in the U.S. per capita. So much for Peru being as safe as the U.S.

If you're reading the thread about the murders in Mexico, you'll see posts claiming that Mexico is also just as safe as the U.S. That's not true because Mexico had 22.7 intentional homicides per 100,000, making it more dangerous than both the U.S and Peru.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
The world we live in is no stranger to one of the biggest reasons many of our children disappear without a trace. Many children are abducted and sold for body parts throughout the United States, Central America, South America and Europe.


Happie, I don't believe it. Without any evidence, this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. Also, that's not the web site of any reputable "international international aid organization." To me it just looks like advertisement for a private investigator. http://missingchildreninternational.org/about_us.html

Can you give me an example of a SINGLE child that was abducted in the United States (or any of the other countries listed) and sold for "body parts."

Most of us don't even think of children used as pawns for a big price. Young blonde girls are kidnapped and sold for prostitution. This happens mostly in Middle Eastern Countries. Many of them have been know throughout history to love and enjoy young white blonde girls. Korea and Japan are also part of this corruption, or perversion. There are men and women who love and enjoy being around these young children. It is possible that some young boys and girls are kidnapped for a bigger purpose, breeding.

Can you give me a a single example of a white blonde child kidnapped in the United States for the purpose of being used as a prostitute in a brothel in the Middle East or Korea or Japan?

This is our version of the Pishtaco myth.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Next time you see that pretty young blond at the local tittie bar... look into the eyes of that young lady...

That would be missing the point. Besides, I prefer brunettes.

... and see if you can any longer tell yourself they are choosing to be there.

You could play the same game with 99% of the young ladies that work at fast food joints, only it wouldn't be nearly as fun.
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:05pm PT


This fuking thread has been beaten to death and BACK...

WTF???...

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
^^^^^^

And you're still here reading it and posting on it.
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