help climbers visciously attacked in Peru

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
SuperTopo: where I always go first for crime scene analysis of pictures
on the intardnet.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
It would be wise, if a Blue Ribbon panel (Pabst does not qualify) were formed and sent down there posthaste to get to the bottom of this important matter once and for all.

Dinner and companionship will be provided gratis.



Addendum: Licky may not serve.




Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Hence the phrase "looks like". Although I have seen a few broken windows in my time.. I swear I never broke any of em! ;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
rock: high density fractures near point of impact approximately twice the size of the rock, tightly spaced concentric rings


head: lower fracture density near point of impact gradually becoming less dense away from the point of impact, wider spacing between concentric rings


horse:
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 5, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
Where's the blood if a head was used to open the window ?
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Aah Jim good point. And would there not be airbags gone off too if it was heads?
This is so Wings of Steel.
Maybe the movie will tell the real truth hehe
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Jan: American consulate was uninterested in helping...

Hey, that's patently untrue. When I was in jail in Tokyo they came right over with the latest copy of Newsweek. Unfortunately, I wasn't in it so I never saw or heard from them again.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
I'm guessing it was the dude's head. It all makes sense... a chick was driving (which is why they ended up in the ditch). The dude was sitting in the back,

According to Jenny, the dude (her brother Jed) was driving.


http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=9499

No more than 10 minutes after leaving the village, the group reached a school. They asked the headmaster if they could camp. He denied their request and turned them away.

Villagers had created a small roadblock with boulders, Wolfrom said. Attempts to talk failed and they decided to simply drive over the roadblock.

As they were driving, someone threw a large rock through the passenger side window, striking Jenny Wolfrom in the jaw. Others cracked the windshield.

Down the road, they came to a larger roadblock of boulders about 2 feet tall, Wolfrom said. On one side of the road was a cliff. The other side was an irrigation ditch.

Jed Wolfrom aimed for the canal and gunned it, trying to make it through. The truck flipped on its side.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
The truck flipped on its side.

Down the road, they came to a larger roadblock of boulders about 2 feet tall, Wolfrom said. On one side of the road was a cliff. The other side was an irrigation ditch.

I don't see enough rocks to make a 2" tall roadblock... let alone a 2 foot tall roadblock.

I also don't see cliffs on either side of the road.

Do you?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
In the beginning I was trying to ignore this thread, but then let myself get sucked in. I was surprised that people jumped to the conclusion so quickly that the whole account was a hoax and wouldn't even give them the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know (and still don't know) what happened, but their story did not sound as unlikely as many here claimed.

Then people said they weren't even climbers This is false. They have climbing pics all over their blog.

I don't think some people care about the truth.

The only detailed accounts we have is from the Wolfroms and I wish we had a police report, or newspaper reports by journalists that spent more time interviewing the people in the village. However, according to the Peru papers, the mayor of the village and the authorities believe that they were attacked.

The excuse is that the villagers thought they might have been cattle thieves. But how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru?

Maybe they shouldn't have tried to drive away, and shouldn't have tried to drive around the barricades. I think this was a mistake. But if their instincts were telling them that something bad was going down and they needed to run, maybe it would have been a mistake not to try to escape. A book, "The Gift of Fear" was recommended here on Supertopo and I read it. According to that we should trust our instincts when they tell us to flee, because they are often right. I think that the way they were treated, especially the way the women were treated, points to their instincts being right.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
I don't see enough rocks to make a 2" tall roadblock... let alone a 2 foot tall roadblock.

I also don't see cliffs on either side of the road.

Do you?

Why would the roadblock be behind them? Lol.

DMT
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Maybe there is a cliff ahead, behind the photog?
I also don't see broken glass on the seats from the rock that came through the passenger window, or pieces of glass still stuck in the window caseing?
Or on the ground but it very well could be on the ground on the side of the truck we can't see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Dingus, you know enough about geology to make a reasonable inference there.

Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
In the beginning I was trying to ignore this thread, but then let myself get sucked in. I was surprised that people jumped to the conclusion so quickly that the whole account was a hoax and wouldn't even give them the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know (and still don't know) what happened, but their story did not sound as unlikely as many here claimed.

Then people said they weren't even climbers This is false. They have climbing pics all over their blog.

I don't think some people care about the truth.

The only detailed accounts we have is from the Wolfroms and I wish we had a police report, or newspaper reports by journalists that spent more time interviewing the people in the village. However, according to the Peru papers, the mayor of the village and the authorities believe that they were attacked.

The excuse is that the villagers thought they might have been cattle thieves. But how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru?

Good points. One of the few things we can safely conclude is that they were in fact attacked, even if many people posting here seem to think the attack was justified.
In addition to how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru, I'd like to know how many cattle-thief gangs are composed mostly of women.
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
"Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy..."

haha you make a good point mechrist, i have done donuts on the icey Canadian highways before at night not realizing a cliff existed until I got out of the car; this sleuthing behind a computer is fun.

And I am not totally against their story at all, but unlike the USA, in Peru they are guilty until proven innocent, and this happened in Peru.
Also not to flog this but, how come we never saw the planes being carted away from the Pentagon or that empty farmers field? We have a right to ask. Some of us travel to Peru and have a right to know what happened.
Maybe goggle maps would find us that 'cliff'?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
this sleuthing behind a computer is fun

Just like the movies!

Here's a view looking the other way... I don't see any cliffs, but now I see A SINGLE rock bigger than 4" I would expect AT LEAST one photo to show AT LEAST a small portion of the "roadblock" or at least SOME materials lying around that could be used to build it.



The ditch doesn't seem that hard to avoid by driving on the other side... the one with the big cliff...





Does it really matter what the locals thought they were doing? They didn't speak the language, were drinking, refused to show ID, and were most likely pricks. You are likely to get run out of damn near any small town damn near anywhere for acting like that.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
This big adventure took place just off the main highway to Machu Pichu, which gets millions and millions of tourons, like niagra falls or the grand canyon. A few years ago they were going to build an airport near Cuzco because that's where the tourons go, and they're not interested in Lima.

For whatever reason, these guys didn't look like tourists to the locals who felt threatend by them. Did they think they were cattle rustlers? I doubt it. They were just paranoid after being robbed repeatedly. The gringos didn't look like tourons, who don't rent cars to go to Machu Pichu. And no tourist drives their own car from the US to Peru. That's what's so unique about this and why the Peruvians would think its strange. They didn't know who they were, and didn't like it that the gringos tried to run when asked for ID. Then there was a mob psychology that kicked in once they started using pepper spray to try to escape. Things just escalated as one mistake after another was made. The story seems pretty simple and not a lot of the facts are disputed. It just depends whether you feel sorry for them or not. I don't.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.

Just guessing, but I see a number of reasons why the locals may have attacked them and then beat them:

1. Not showing ID and driving away. The locals might have seen this as being disrespectful and also as evidence that they were guilty of something.
2. Trying to drive through the crowd and around the barricade. The locals could have felt that they were in danger of being hit by the truck and were being "attacked" by it. In the U.S. police have shot and killed people just for trying to run barricades. The police claim that they were being assaulted with a "deadly weapon" (the vehicle) and acted in self-defense.
3. Pepper-spraying the locals.
4. The forming a of a "mob mentality" among the local hotheads. When an event like this goes down, in Peru or anywhere, you can count on it drawing the local hotheads, just like dog poo attracts flies. The less hotheaded people stay away.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
There is a very good possibility that 'cattle thieves' are women- when I have been to Peru/Bolivia many women assume the roll of tending the cattle, building houses, I even hiked 20km into the back country once and found the sheep herders to be young girls that should be in school.
Many Shining Path members were women, so just because that roll is not normal legally tending or illegally stealing cattle in the USA, doesn't mean it doesn't happen down there.

I was shot at with a handgun down there from a car becuase my friend 'fingered' them, weird stuff does happen from the locals you may not expect.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
We'll at least no one is claiming this is a Nigerian scam anymore, at least we have come that far.
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