help climbers visciously attacked in Peru


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Jebus H Bomz

Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Jebus, I am beginning to wonder about you...

About my facetious comments...?

Mostly, I had fun torquing a tool. I don't really care what the upshot was, although I do feel badly for those suffering from an episode of Punk'd: South America.

Patrick Sawyer

Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Jebus, if you come to Ireland, come around for a cup of tea, or coffee or a hot whiskey. It would do us both a lot of good. Langdale, 7 Burmah Close, Dalkey. And the rock in Dalkey Quarry (good granite) is a five-minute walk from my front door.

And I promise that the locals will not stone you and chase you for 10 or so minutes. I'll do that. ;-)

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
Jebus, you from NuhVAAAAAAduh? I wonder how these "climbers" pronounced Peru... and other words. If ever in Prescott Aridzona... it is Presskit, not Prescott.

Jebus H Bomz

Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Jebus, you from NuhVAAAAAAduh? I wonder how these "climbers" pronounced Peru... and other words. If ever in Prescott Aridzona... it is Presskit, not Prescott.

Heh. Yeah, that's sort of my ode to the idiocy of anglicizing a Spanish word and then getting bent out of shape when people honor the roots. You're right though, people may just mistake me for another ornery Nervaaaduhn.

I didn't know the Prescott pronunciation. I only rolled through there, unfortunately, never got my Granite Mountain on, etc..

Yes, Patrick, I probably deserve a good stoning ;).
Patrick Sawyer

Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Jebus, a good stoning eh?

Though I haven't partaken recently, there is some decent green or hash around. If you are telling me you are coming over I can score. And don't even think of bringing your own stash, the risks are too HIGH.

That said, I could use a good toke now after Jennie's tantrum in the village (which she has forgotten, that's dementia). I just have to settle for a glass of wine.

Cheers dude.

Jebus H Bomz

Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 11, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
I have an Irish connection! Nah, no travelling there in the near term, unfortunately. I'd love to get over there and sample the stone. Maybe just climbing it though.
Patrick Sawyer

Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Jebus, the stone in Dalkey Quarry is sound granite (and some choss but not much, however you are looking at 10-40 meter climbs, but some two-pitch climbs (albeit short) for the most part, but great granite, slab, face, cracks.

And then there is Glendalough, multi-pitch (yeah, like three rope lengths at best) on decent granite. Fairhead in Northern Ireland, 1-4 pitches and you have to be a solid 5.9/HVS climber to lead. There are other places in Ireland. But the west (Cali, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, Washington), gosh aren't we so blessed. And of course other places (Chamonix, Patagonia, Alaska, Andes, Himalaya, etc).

Forgive me if I am crying. I miss home and the stone that is there. There is nothing like Tuolumne Meadows in the summer. Sigh...

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
. . . caught boulder poaching once, on Hunter Ligget army base, by some staff Sargent M.P.

What's a "Sargent"?

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Patrick Sawyer"
This thread seems to be turning into a "what if" thread.

The means you are about to do add your own "what if":

Common sene. My mom taught me that. I wonder if the three so-called heroes (a term used on a couple of websites now) used their common sense. Two beers among three people to celebrate a birthday? Come on, let's be real. Only two beers. Poor souls must have been broke to only afford two beers.

Common sense should tell you that not all of us are Irish drunks! I know if must be foreign concept to you (no pun intended on your being in Ireland) but some people are able to drink in moderation, and drink less beer than they can afford to drink. Even on their birthday.

Just because you like to get tanked on your birthday and drink till the money runs out doesn't mean that everyone does that.

Me, one my birthday I only had one beer. Most other people there had only one beer or none. It wasn't that we couldn't afford any more--there was plenty left over in the cooler.

So what may be "common" sense in Ireland or anywhere with a group of drunks might not be as common as you suppose elsewhere.
Big Mike

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Heh. Yeah, that's sort of my ode to the idiocy of anglicizing a Spanish word and then getting bent out of shape when people honor the roots.

funny how people get bent over pronunciation... When I was in the valley I couldn't get over other climbers saying "RAAAUWWWWT". Finally I asked someone about it in the hotsprings one night. I said "It's a Route!" (rou-te) and the guy says, "What are you, French?"

it is a french word....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
blahblah go hump someone else's leg, mkay?


Social climber
Golden, CO
Jan 11, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
And yes, this story will roll, there will be a book deal and movie/TV movie deal. You can bet on it.

No matter how tweaked and fluorished, this story would make the dumbest crap movie or book ever. Seriously. Did you see the Aaron Ralston movie, me neither and that was actually an insane true story. The movie was a massive tanker. This story has no legs at all Patrick, you're just obsessing on these 3 for some reason.

edit- FULLY not trying to be douchey Patrick, this would just be an awful TV flick even, I think.

Jan 11, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck... then it is probably a duck.

I can't believe I'm responding to this....
But you forget that there are many kinds of ducks whose behaviors may be very different. Thirty year old Nano puff wearers from Idaho who drink beer might not all have the same attitude and behavior. That's why the duck theory doesn't work. It is simple prejudice. Don't fall for it.

I've even heard that there are some Irishmen who talk like Irishmen, dress like Irishmen and walk like Irishmen but ARE NOT drunks. Is that true?

I tried to explain this to Riley.

Jan 11, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
You people are fuking crazy and obsessively out of control with this bullsh!t .....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 11, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
What else would you expect from fuking stupid Americans?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
I thuoght you stupid fukin americans might find this interesting:

The Science of Why Comment Trolls Suck
The online peanut gallery can get you so riled up that your ability to reason goes out the window, a new study finds.
—By Chris Mooney | Thu Jan. 10, 2013 3:06 AM PST

Everybody who's written or blogged about climate change on a prominent website (or, even worse, spoken about it on YouTube) knows the drill. Shortly after you post, the menagerie of trolls arrives. They're predominantly climate deniers, and they start in immediately arguing over the content and attacking the science—sometimes by slinging insults and even occasional obscenities. To cite a recent example:

What part of "we haven't warmed any in 16 years" don't you understand? Heh. "Cherry-picking" as defined by you alarmists: any time period selected containing data that refutes your hysterical hypothesis. Can be any length of time from 4 billion years to one hour. F*#k off, little man!

It was reasonably obvious already that these folks were doing nothing good for the public's understanding of the science of climate change (to say nothing of their own comprehension). But now there's actual evidence to back this idea up.

In a recent study, a team of researchers from the George Mason University Center for Climate Change Communication and several other institutions employed a survey of 1,183 Americans to get at the negative consequences of vituperative online comments for the public understanding of science. Participants were asked to read a blog post containing a balanced discussion of the risks and benefits of nanotechnology (which is already all around us and supports a $91 billion US industry). The text of the post was the same for all participants, but the tone of the comments varied. Sometimes, they were "civil"—e.g., no name calling or flaming. But sometimes they were more like this: "If you don’t see the benefits of using nanotechnology in these products, you're an idiot."

The researchers were trying to find out what effect exposure to such rudeness had on public perceptions of nanotech risks. They found that it wasn't a good one. Rather, it polarized the audience: Those who already thought nanorisks were low tended to become more sure of themselves when exposed to name-calling, while those who thought nanorisks are high were more likely to move in their own favored direction. In other words, it appeared that pushing people's emotional buttons, through derogatory comments, made them double down on their preexisting beliefs.

Why are people so quick to buy junk theories on climate, creationism, and vaccines? Chris Mooney explains in "The Science of Why We Don't Believe in Science."
In the context of the psychological theory of motivated reasoning, this makes a great deal of sense. Based on pretty indisputable observations about how the brain works, the theory notes that people feel first, and think second. The emotions come faster than the "rational" thoughts—and also shape the retrieval of those thoughts from memory. Therefore, if reading insults activates one's emotions, the "thinking" process may be more likely to be defensive in nature, and focused on preserving one's identity and preexisting beliefs.

The study did not examine online climate change trolls directly—but there is good reason to think that the effects of their obnoxious behavior will, if anything, be worse. As the researchers note in the paper, compared with climate change, relatively few people know much about or have strong feelings about nanotechnology. When it comes to climate change, in contrast, "the controversy that you see in comments falls on more fertile ground, and resonates more with an established set of values that the reader may bring to the table," explains study coauthor Dietram Scheufele, a professor of science communication at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. If commenters have stronger emotions and more of a stake, it stands to reason that the polarizing effect of their insults may be even stronger—although, to be sure, this needs to be studied.

The upshot of this research? This is not your father's media environment any longer. In the golden oldie days of media, newspaper articles were consumed in the context of…other newspaper articles. But now, adds Scheufele, it's like "reading the news article in the middle of the town square, with people screaming in my ear what I should believe about it."

To be sure, we all retain the option of not reading the comments. Which, in light of the latest research, is looking smarter than ever.

from mother jones.

Heh, just kidding about the fukin stupid part eh? I mean wuzamatter can't take a freakin joke?!?
Tools living in yer mammas basement.....etc ad infinitum

Gym climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
blahblah go hump someone else's leg, mkay?


how about save your endless circle jerk for your buddies or your own BS threads--you've got plenty, mkay?
Ian Westmoreland

Jan 11, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
I came here to post in this thread. I didn't join this forum to talk about climbing or any of that.

I been living in Jackson Hole for nearly 20yrs. Things have changed a lot here in the last decade, before the word was out about JH it really was mostly nothing but dirt bags here but those days are long gone along with many of the real dirt bags. I traveled by my own vehicle from JH to Panama and back, twice, with my dog. The first trip I spent living out of my truck on the road, did 15k miles in 4 months on the trip. On my second trip I bee-lined it for Panama and spent the next three months living in a small village of about 300 people. So just making it clear I do speak from a perspective that is based on experience.

When I first read the Wolfrom's story I thought it was a scam or just some other crazy BS, just couldn't wrap my head around it. Now, a week later and a few dozen hours of my own research and I believe their story to be true. However, I feel it is so very one sided and much is left out of the tale. Their story is full of holes, without a doubt. The money thing is lame and shows character of all those involved or who donated to them. I don't really care about the money side of it but I do think it speak volumes about many things, the credit of the people telling the tale only being one of these things.

I hate to come right out and say it but I feel it needs to be said. These three folks were extremely ignorant. I feel in at least a small way they do reflect upon me not just because they are from JH but because I take trips myself in my own vehicle deep into Latin America. As such, I do feel the need to comment on various discussions (on the internet) on the topic of the Wolfrom's tale. Getting your teeth kicked in and losing all your sweet gear is a hefty price to pay for ignorance but when you go to somebody else's country you are playing by their rules not your own. If you don't know the rules than really you have no right to say if you were dealt with in any way that is not acceptable in the said country.

There is a whole lot of factors that come into play from the incident. Fact of the matter is, the Wolfrom's account is full of so many holes it is hard to believe it took place as they describe. I won't go and point out a bunch of the details which have already been pointed out a number of times in this thread. However, the Wolfrom's posted their story for the world to see, themselves along with family and friends solicited the story to be spread as much as possible and as fast as possible. They (I don't care if it was friends/family) also solicited for money which they got to the sum of over 20grand. They did all this within 5 days after the were attacked, yes I suppose we can thank modern technology for that. I am just stating facts here. My issue with them doing that is that it shows them (because they are) irresponsible people and travelers. No insurance, no back up plan, no emergency fund, ect ect is irresponsible any way you look at it. And hey we have all been guilty of being irresponsible but most people admit this and then are willing to deal with the consequences of it. If I got a beat down like they did and then robbed I sure wouldn't be posting it on the internet asap for the world to see unless I had ulterior motives. A simple paragraph would have been enough for the world to see without pasting their police report or whatever it was on their blog along with an itemized listing of their lost gear. By doing that they have opened themselves up to scrutiny and rightly so.

I feel it is good that not everyone is buying their story. I think it is good there are ongoing discussions about the incident on the web. Why? Because it helps to shine a lot of light on the one sided story we have been given. It may also (if the Wolfrom's read these things being discussed about them) make them think about going on TV as well as to think back on the event and reflect. By reflecting perhaps they can realize they are mostly to blame for what happened to them. Perhaps they will realize all the mistakes they made to cause this to happen to them and perhaps they will understand why they are being scrutinized so much. If not, well then they have a long hard road ahead of them in life.

I read some 400 comments in this thread so have not read them all. Having been into overland (travel by vehicle) travel for some time now and also an active person within that community. Well, I got to say I am not to stoked on the kinds of things I read in blogs by travelers doing these kinds of trips the last few years. A big lack of respect is shown in travelers blogs across the web reporting on these types of trips, not just the Wolfrom's. And it disgusted me.....

I have not seen this link provided yet in the 400 or so comments I read so here ya go, another perspective.

You can clearly see by some of the well informed comments posted in that blog that there is much the Wolfrom's didn't know about the country they were traveling in. That is foolish on their part, especially if you are just planning to camp where ever you like in a country you know little about.

There is also an ongoing discussion in the overland community, however, not many people are offering up much besides a few people. most are content to just wish them well and be silent. Which I got to say bothers me too since the Wolfrom's are a reflection on this community.

Bottom line, your trip of a lifetime can be ruined if you are foolish and ignorant. On top of that you have a responsibility as a traveler and should not be so hasty to tell tales like the Wolfrom's since you are part of a much larger community. I do not fault them for seeking help, I do however question the way and method they went about seeking help. I know that if I got a beat down and lost my stuff I sure wouldn't be in a hurry to tell the world about it. Perhaps because in every part of my life I look to what I do/did to cause something to happen to me. And as a result I would feel embarrassed if I was the Wolfrom's. I mean really what do they expect from the public after telling their tale and so on and so forth?

Big Mike

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
There is also an ongoing discussion in the overland community, however, not many people are offering up much besides a few people. most are content to just wish them well and be silent. Which I got to say bothers me too since the Wolfrom's are a reflection on this community.

This is what a lot of people here seem to wish would happen also.

I know that if I got a beat down and lost my stuff I sure wouldn't be in a hurry tot ellt he world about it.

Yet it was their first priority!

Something happened for sure. What? I don't know, but their story is missing something...

They didn't press charges, and they haven't updated since they got the money, and no other media seems interested in the story.. Fishy.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
Another cultural element that has not been considered is the "Pishtaco" myth. It's a very common story among rural communities in the high Andes across Peru. The "Pishtaco" is a man, usually white and blonde or a foreigner, that kills woman in the Andes. Besides, as you point out in the article, don't forget the long history of violence in the rural areas of Peru, all the time against these persons. So, a group of strangers, foreigners! out of nowhere, in their land without permission, is very bad news.

holy sh#t - never heard of The Pishtaco man - I would be in big

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