help climbers visciously attacked in Peru

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patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 4, 2013 - 10:23am PT
http://https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed

click through to the narrative
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:03am PT
http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/nightmare-in-peru/

Holy Crap....

Scratching Pallcca off the list.

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:18am PT
What a nightmare!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Things like this are always a risk, anywhere, anytime, but especially in 3rd world countries. I have been around the world (literally) and have visited over 35 countries. I have limited my travels to central and south America for this very reason.

But I should say the the worst and most violent crime I have ever suffered was in my own neighborhood, in my own town, in my own state, and in my own country, the USA.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Paranoia meets mob mentality with a dose of local henchman.
Probably no little degree of inbreeding also.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:22am PT
Scratch Peru off my list
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:28am PT
I guess my question is: Why didn't the US Consulate get them to the US Embassy ASAP? It would seem that their citizenship could be quickly ascertained in this day and age, even in 3rd tier towns in Peru. Once that's done, the US Embassy should have stepped in and provided assistance.

It's an unfortunate incident that always has the potential to occur when traveling to the edges. I hope everyone involved heals and recovers as fully as possible.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:31am PT
But I should say the the worst and most violent crime I have ever suffered was in my own neighborhood, in my own town, in my own state, and in my own country, the USA.


k.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:37am PT
How can help them?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Look,, in this day and age,, traveling abroad may very well get you GRIEF.

I know of two taxidermists that went to South America- on some islands to photograph birds for a reference album. Never been seen or heard from since. There are MANY more missing or dead from Peru and many other countries, including Argentina. travel,, at your OWN RISK.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Insane! May they heal quickly and return home safe.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Indians all over the world seem to be pissed at whitey, I wonder why?

Too bad for these poor travelers.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Wow. What a nightmare.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
crowdtilt link is broken for me


and does 5 gallons of gas really cost 120 dollars in Peru?


"5 gallon gas can and 5 gallons of gas = $120"
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Paranoia meets mob mentality with a dose of local henchman.
Probably no little degree of inbreeding also.
Reilly nails it.

Add in a little showing off something locals couldn't afford in 8 lifetimes:

http://adventureamericas.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/dsc02651.jpg

Anyone recall what is unique about the New Year? This is a time when you see a LOT of poor people along the side of the road, and tons of these road block / gringo tax collection booths.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
That's horrible. If you or your friends are reading this, best wishes for speedy recovery.

When I was in Ecuador, Peru wasn't particularly dangerous. Always, there's some risk of banditos wherever you go, and even more so in outlying areas.

I'd still go to Peru. I usually hire a local guide who knows the lay of the land and can keep their ear to the ground if I go off the beaten path.

JLP is right -- traveling with fancy gear is a sure way to lose it. Had a bus driver steal the perlon cord that I used to tie my kayak to the roof, right in front of me -- he was on top, lowered the boat to me, and refused to throw down the cord. I always lied to the locals about the cost of the boats and the plane ticket to get there to (probably, futilely) minimize the perception of wealth as much as possible.
sharperblue

Mountain climber
oakland, california
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
This is obviously really bad, but also an incredibly isolated, unique incident, however dangerous and brutal. I've spent four seasons climbing in Peru and - aside from the occasional squabbles with dishonest arrieros or petty thefts - have nothing but magnificent memories of the people of that marvelous place.

To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism, and at the very least you're doing yourself an enormous dis-service by missing this place. How many tourists visit Peru each year and how many incidents of violence? Compared to the United states? to Italy?

The points made about 3rd world (in this case 2.5 world) travel are completely valid though; to think that you can just casually drive through a place as vast as South America and expect no trouble is mind-bogglingly naive; it's still the wild west out there - very, very much so. Add in miner's communities (mostly Japanese and Canadian owned companies, btw) who literally kill trouble makers or survivor's of Pinochet's massive massacres escaping north, and you bet you have some pissed off people. Doesn't absolve the violence of course, but it makes it understandable.

The current government of Paraguay isn't even recognized by ANY other South American state due to its being an obvious US patsy set-up (this comment coming from a self-professed patriot) Blow-back to American policies in South America? Who would have ever guessed?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Wild story and a very traumatic experience in every sense of the word. Rural folk the world over can get scary fast. Those hills have eyes, right?

I had my own experience in a very "safe" part of Mexico (at the time).

I've known others to run into their own log in the road.

I wouldn't think Peru is going to reimburse them, I'd focus on getting out of there fast and recovering with family.
MisterE

Social climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Heart-wrenching.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Very scary. To think you were about to be stoned to death . . .
Holy crap, I don't know what I'd do.

I wonder what the prospects of getting any help from our embassy or the Peruvian government are?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
this is horrible I feel very badly for them. I have traveled to Peru many, many times to climb and explore. I have never experienced anything like this, nor have any of my friends, thankfully. My heart goes put to these folks. You're much safer in the mountains ,climbing. TY
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The U.S. Department of State rates Peru CRITICAL for crime due in part to the country having one of the highest reported crime rates in Latin America. Crime is a constant problem in Lima and most other parts of Peru. Pickpocketing, purse snatching, “smash and grab” robberies, the theft of items from unoccupied vehicles, and the theft of vehicle parts (mirrors, lights, etc.) are common crimes. Electronics (especially cameras, laptops, GPSs, smart phones, I-Pods, etc) rank high on the list of items that criminals target. Armed robberies, assaults, express kidnappings, carjackings, burglaries, and petty theft are a daily fact of life. Street crime is prevalent in most urban areas, especially in Lima. While gratuitous violence committed against foreigners is infrequent, according to Peruvian National Police (PNP) statistics, assaults and robberies involving violence have been on the rise over the last four years.

https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12225

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Anybody who expects more than a modicum of help from a US embassy is seriously
deluded, unless you are somebody. And if you're in the hinterlands - fuggetaboutit.
Of course, if you become a news item then you can expect more but by then it
will do you precious little good, more than likely.
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous ...
Dumbasses
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I wonder what it was about this particular village. You can opine all you want about how they were dumbasses, but the fact remains that they spent hundreds of nights out there and this incident happened in one specific place. So why the Village of the Pitchfork People?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
So why the Village of the Pitchfork People?


Yes, if totally believable, their story paints a picture of a strange, organized vendetta.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
I guess. It sounds like the main mistake was driving 'away' in the wrong direction.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
very sad story; and I'm within weeks of starting a bike ride across South America. Wake up notice. (by the way, I've been climbing in that exact region some decades ago)

But as to the why, I'm no Peruvian expert, but for 30 years the Shinning Path and the (US supported) central government have been at war in those parts. If the shinning path comes into a village and you don't feed them, they shoot all the men in the village. If you do feed them the gov forces come into town and shoot all the men. Neutrals can't win.

In addition, many villages were instructed by government forces to create "self defense" leagues, to keep the Shinning Path out of their towns. Clearly the victims are neither in this case, but I can sort of understand the paranoia infecting the villagers. In retrospect, accepting the absolute authority of the gang and the presidente may have led to less horrible outcome. Yes they are ignorant villagers, they've been harassed by outsiders for decades, there no doubt was a touch of mob madness involved. But these people have to dig in the mud for 1" diameter potatoes to feed their children. I wouldn't demonize them.

again, very sad.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Good luck on the bike trip mike. Can't wait to see/hear about it.

I was under the impression that the Shining Path hadn't been much of an issue for the last 10 years or so.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:01pm PT

I would have zero fears of visiting this village.

We should start a fund, ahahahaa....

I dunno, it sounds like they wandered into some form of community-based strong armed robbery to me. I got into my own situation in a rural part of Mexico once and lived. I don't care what jibes you want to throw my way to prove you're the experienced traveler of distinction loved by all oppressed people everywhere, I avoided an attempted murder.

A former friend of mine tried to throw the same jibes you are attempting, Riley, instinctively assuming the ugly American waded into the situation. I could only laugh later when he was held up at machete point. Karma's a bitch, so go to Peru, super dooooooddd!!! Jajajajajaasokg,bjifadlkf!!!!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous ...
Dumbasses

Some truth in this. If driving is "dangerous", surely stopping is worse?

And, once the locals began behaving suspiciously, why did they decide to drive farther UP the side road they were on, instead of hightailing it back to the main road?

But, they could hardly have expected what was in store, sounds horrific, Deliverance done for real. Hope the victims recover okay from their injuries.

Have to wonder what the villagers' story would be. Sounds awful organized for a simple car-jacking robbery. Maybe the village had experienced violence and crime from out-of-towners, were expecting more trouble, and were alert and ready to fight back? Their response sounds like some kind of third-world Neighborhood Watch scenario.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
A village just doesn't attack you and go crazy like that for no reason..

Yes and no.. I could believe that these people didn't do anything to warrant this attack. There are plenty of stories of crazy people becoming the bully leaders of communities. Bullies don't need a reason, other then you happened by. The leader of this community sounds like a bully.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Some truth in this. If driving is "dangerous", surely stopping is worse?

Climbing is dangerous, stopping is worse. heh heh..
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
They had already been physically attacked when the pepper spray was sprayed.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
That kind of corruption and hold up scheme has a lot to do with the third world, Riley. A lot of us have been in bad parts of America, it has nothing to do with getting stoned by a community.

I'd say there was something very strange going on and it is probably hard to say what went really went down, although it certainly escalated, no doubt aided by the language/customs barrier.

i didnt say anything like this - and you're an idiot for assuming so..

I don't expect much better than these knee jark barbs from you. It's your trademark here to get overblown really quickly.

edit: Jajajajajajaja!!!RE111
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
these people have to dig in the mud for 1" diameter potatoes to feed their children.
This might be true, but I do like how they get to run around with our cell phones.

I wonder who got the nano-puffs?

This whole incident really comes down to that fancy truck, their cloths and the villagers wanting a piece of it.

Latin America = giant sh#t hole.

In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old.

No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
They made several mistakes in my reading of their story. However, my guess is my Peruvian friends are not proud of their countrymen. TY
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
The people were trying to f*#k with them. Why else would they say it's OK to park, and then start blowing the whistles etc.? Clearly it was a case of mass robbery.

I guess their radar wasn't quite sharp enough for that situation.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I would like to hear what you think their mistakes were.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
Yeah, JLP, money grab. That pretty much explains the whole thing: a money grab masquerading as neighborhood watch.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Maybe the village had experienced violence and crime from out-of-towners, were expecting more trouble, and were alert and ready to fight back? Their response sounds like some kind of third-world Neighborhood Watch scenario.
Yeah, that sounds plausible--you really have to watch it when you see a group consisting of 1 guy and two girls masquerading as being on a long camping trip roll into your town--who knows what havoc they could wreak? Sending in the two girls would be a good "advance scouting team" for the invaders waiting in the wings.

Always interesting (if fairly predictable) to see people's reactions to these types of things. Everything from the "the ugly Americans started it" (seemingly implausible if you believe the account, and if you don't believe it, how could you have any opinion at all?) to the "this is from centuries of gringo oppression."
I'm of the I'm-surprised-this-doesn't-happen-more-often school, but I freely admit that is pure conjecture.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas. Not all Peruvian guides are women, but these are.




JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas.
Have fun negotiating costs on that one, and see what path you take and who you meet along the way and what the police think when they find out your "tour guide" from two villages away isn't officially registered locally in some weird way.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
"I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas."

Yeah, that's a tough one when you're driving. Walking, maybe.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
It's interesting that the majority (by far) of anthropologists never get attacked and/or robbed. An acquaintance of mine lived with modern day (automatic weapons equipped) headhunters in the Phillipines, never got held up once.

See for example


Cultural Anthropology: An Applied Perspective
Gary Ferraro

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
When I was in Argentina two years ago we met a bunch of people who had driven
all the way down there with no problems other than bad roads, etc. The
people in this story had too much Kumbaya in the gas tank and, at that,
were running on fumes.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
I would have zero fears of visiting this village.

Me neither. In a gun truck.
dave729

Sport climber
Placer
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
our government is good at gifting attitude adjustment to places like that

photo not found
Missing photo ID#282209

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
So why the Village of the Pitchfork People?

Who knows what the history of that village is.

A fellow worker of mine grew up in a small village in Yugoslavia. The Germans had not exactly been the most behaved guests during their stay in that village. He told me that shortly after the war some poor schmuck drove into the village in a Mercedes. He was pulled from his German car by a mob and beaten to death. His crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time in a German car.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Latin America = giant sh#t hole. In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old. No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back

exactly.
BJ

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
I would donate to help with medical expenses, but they're SOL for the iPods.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
they should be glad they did not pull over in Reno - chances are pretty good they would have been lit up with automatic weapons

I spent years hanging out in Reno and never felt threatened.

Where'd that thought come from?



Glad that they made it out OK, cultural faux pas or not.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism,

don't know if that remark is directed at me, but you don't know me.

there is still to much to see and do in this country for me to leave the country for adventure
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
I spent years hanging out in Reno and never felt threatened.

Where'd that thought come from?

Because Riley believes everything he thinks? I'll leave him to his "witty" ad nauseum wind storm. Batten down the hatches! Jajajajajajaja!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
The story makes no sense. I assume they were trespassing and when told to leave, the people of the village didn't think they were leaving. Peru is one of the safest countries there is for tourists. They're lucky they got through Colombia without getting into even worse trouble.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Riley backed down like a Peruvian tourist. Wow.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Man, wouldn't ol' Rokjox be preaching up a storm right now?

All about how to travel and be tough and back down the bad guy.
We had some epic pose downs from that guy.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Can anyone verify this whole story? Just askin.... There would have to be plenty of relatives/friends back here who could easily do that...

It seems odd to me that she includes a laundry list (with retail/new prices) of everything that was stolen for her story.

If I, and my friends were attacked that savagely for no reason and injured to such an extent my main goal would become to get the Hell out of there, not to recoup $$ for my lost iThingy.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
It seems odd to me that she includes a laundry list (with retail/new prices) of everything that was stolen for her story.

You obviously have never lived with a 'Type A' woman.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Wow, you really are whack, Riley. I have several TRs that are not labelled in the trip reports section (climb a lot of the same stuff you mention, actually), I'm in somebody else's TR of Darkstar, I post climbing photos fairly frequently (a lot more than a dozen photos, learn how to scroll dumb ass), and I don't even OWN a gun genius. I also notice you have at least one picture of a gun in your photos, you are clearly a gun nut by your typical logic. If you looked up the context of my "extensive collection" of gun photos you would see that I'm not a gun nut. But you're a prejudiced wind bag too busy to bother with the truth.

Take your meds, I know you have access ;). Yayayayayaya!!!
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
JLP said
Latin America = giant sh#t hole.
Not in my limited experience. I have met many great people in Mexico, Costa Rica and Peru. Not saying they aren't there, just haven't run across them. Worst I have been treated was some newspaper seller who didn't think my Spanish was good enough. He was surly to me. :(
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
these are the risks one takes when traveling in wild and wonderful south america
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
I assume they were trespassing and when told to leave, the people of the village didn't think they were leaving.
I didn't get that at all from the story, but I could see the possible expectation of some sort of overnight parking fee getting out of hand.

Spin it all however you want. There wasn't a problem until some Peruvians decided they wanted the American's money.

Asking for documents is simply the first step in extortion. You often end up buying them back for no real reason, even from the police and military. They were prudent to not give them up, but who knows what else happened.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
I've run into more than a few malditos in Central America with no ill affects. I've found that a smile, confidence, deference, an awareness of your surroundings, and a sharp look in your eye keeps you safe in most cases, even if your Spanish is mas o menos.

All that said, the party concerned had driven through Latin America for several months. I'm guessing that they had a good understanding of where they were and a decent handle on the language.

It seems like an extortion gone very wrong. Plain and simple.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Hypocrites . Some go vacationing in countries that are in utter turmoil like most in South America, and Mexico- sipping the margaritas in touristaville while 30 miles away lie fifty fresh dead bodies from the latest cartel moves. Or some go "hiking" on a border of two countries at war then whine that your in the shyt. I have a friend that has a lot down on the beach -pacific side and even he is having difficulty going down there as bribe costs have risen dramatically. Yes he has to bribe his way through the various locales controlled by banditos most likely cartel wings.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Maybe I shouldn't have pulled up this thread as I'm in the San Francisco airport flying to Delhi.

Generalizations based on somebody's bad experience are often limited. During my time living in Yosemite, it's been one of the safest places from crime around and disease is far from a worry.

Yet around the times that poor gal was beheaded in Foresta, and lately after the headlines proclaimed Hanta Virus, people sent me messages as if I were living in Dante's inferno!

Yes there are Hells everywhere in each country.

One thing I don't buy much about any country, that there are neigborhood where everyone is accepting of mass beating and robbery for the sake of greed. That's unlikely.

But there are mass standards where people take mass offense. I'm told in India, if you accidentally hit somebody in your car, you better just get out of there because it's very possible the locals will beat you up as a matter of course.

Peace

karl
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
You clearly don't care, Riley Whiner ;)!!!!

You argue that we don't know what happened and then that they were irresponsible Americans after school children. You'll squirm whichever way you can to make some point at all, no matter how pointless.

Speaking of ugly mugs... uh, you seen yourself? You like Loki on a bender.

Done with your prejudiced ass, chumpsky!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
Hypocrites . Some go vacationing in countries that are in utter turmoil like most in South America, and Mexico- sipping the margaritas in touristaville while 30 miles away lie fifty fresh dead bodies from the latest cartel moves. Or some go "hiking" on a border of two countries at war then whine that your in the shyt. I have a friend that has a lot down on the beach -pacific side and even he is having difficulty going down there as bribe costs have risen dramatically. Yes he has to bribe his way through the various locales controlled by banditos most likely cartel wings.

Ron, when was the last time you were in Central or South America?

Or, are you just pretending to have a first hand knowledge of how things are 'down there'?

Armchair knowledge gets you nowhere other than deeper into your armchair.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
When we were down in South America Bolivia, Columbia, Brazil and Peru it wasn't until we got into Peru that we started getting problems.

The fuking Peruvians were thieves and we constantly were getting ripped off.

We had to constantly guard and watch our stuff.

We needed body guards in one area with machine guns to protect us from the cocaine cartel.

Those cocaine cartel fukers blew up all the bridges in that area.

When we landed at the small air strip we had to have military protection there also.

They will kill Americans in certain areas of Peru because the Americans were eradicating their drug fields with their "War on Drugs" program.

They hate Americans in certain areas, so beware.

Cuzco is relatively safe but outside the city you have to be careful of thieves, robbers and general fuk heads everywhere.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Well, no one down there messes with Donini......



Fund is currently over $17,000. Now they have enough to continue on to Argentina and onwards for more adventure while you all go back to work in dark offices. Woot! Good times.


"Nightmare in Peru
Posted on January 3, 2013 by adventureamericas

As many people are already aware, Jed and I and my sister in law, Jenny have been through a very traumatic experience here in Peru. I wanted to put this out there to first of all let everyone know that we are safe and recovering in Cusco. We have suffered injuries, but we will all be able to recover fully physically. Below is an account of the incident written up by Jenny to an agency who is set up to help travelers who experience violence abroad. We have yet to hear back from them. We have had a lot requests from people who want to help. We have a meeting with the tourist police, Cusco police, Consolate in Cusco and the police from the small town this afternoon. Based on what we learn from this, we will update you on ways you could help. Thank you for all your support and please share the story epecially to any travelers.



Hello,

My name is Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom. I am a US citizen, a resident of the state of Wyoming, currently visiting Cuzco, Peru and the surrounding areas and I am a victim of an act of extreme violence towards myself, my brother (Joseph Palmer Wolfrom III), and my sister in law (Meghan Moore Doherty). Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred from December 29 to December 30, 2012. I flew into Cuzco, Peru on December 22, 2012 to meet my brother and his wife for a 10-day vacation. We stayed in Cuzco for a few days and then went into the mountains to hike a portion of the Asungate Mountain trek. We were in the mountains from December 25 to December 29.



On December 29, 2012, we left the mountains to drive back to Cuzco and towards our next destination of Macchu Picchu. It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous, so we pulled down a dirt road to camp in the camper on the back of their truck. We pulled into a flat spot near a bridge in the village of Pallcca in the region of Ocongate, Peru at about 6:30 PM. We were drinking two beers between the three of us because it was my 30th birthday and we were celebrating. We were almost immediately approached by two village residents, who were friendly and who we asked if it was ok to park and camp where we had. They said yes. Soon, the two men were blowing whistles and using their cell phones to alert their friends of our presence and many more village residents started gathering around us, including the man who they called the Presidente. We recognized that he was the leader of the community and Meghan asked him directly if we could camp there and he said Yes. We were soon surrounded by indigenous village people who started asking us to give them our documents. We refused to show them our documents as they weren´t Policia and we were getting nervous about their pushiness and decided to leave. We told them we would leave and got into the truck. They wouldn´t let my brother shut his door and started picking up rocks. Joseph finally got his door shut and we drove off quickly in the opposite direction of where we came hoping that the road would lead us away.



The road ended at a school about 10 minutes after we started driving. There was a man there and we asked him if we could camp and he said no, so we had to turn around and start driving back towards where we first encountered the mob. Soon we were approached by two motor bikes coming from the village and many people on foot. They started approaching the vehicle and we asked them if we could please leave. They said they would not let us leave and then started throwing rocks at the truck and building a rock blockade on the road in front of us. We drove over the first blockade and there were villagers up on the hill above the road continuing to throw rocks at the truck. They threw a large rock through the passenger window, breaking it and hitting me in the face and cutting my jaw. They also threw a rock through the driver’s side window, hitting my brother. We soon were met with another large road blockade of boulders that we could not drive through. At this blockade they threw rocks at the windshield and destroyed it. We veered off the road to try to drive around the blockade and got stuck in a huge ditch and could not drive anymore. We were being bombarded with rocks and had to escape from the vehicle. We had two cans of bear spray between the three of us so we used that in self-defense to be able to get out of the truck to start running from the village. We got out of the truck and started running and were immediately attacked by villagers who were throwing rocks at our heads and chasing us with blinding flashlights and sticks. It very much seemed like a planned organized attack with each of the villagers blowing whistles signaling other villagers to come out and join the chase. There were at least 30 people chasing us and throwing rocks at us at one point. We were running for our lives for between 30 minutes to an hour through the village hills and rivers. We were each struck multiple times by rocks in the head and all over our bodies. We eventually were surrounded by villagers who continued to beat us until they decided to bring us back to the Presidente of the village. We were forced to walk back to meet the Presidente where we pleaded with him to let us go. At this point we were all bleeding severely from our heads and Joseph´s front teeth were knocked out and his eye blundered shut by a rock. It was raining and freezing and my brother had lost a shoe running through a river. After a long discussion between the villagers and the presidente, he demanded that we be forced to walk about a mile in the freezing rain back up to the village school. We told them that we would just leave and they could have all of our stuff, but they would not let us leave. During that time I was beaten in the head with a large board, Meghan was kicked in her back extremely hard, and rocks continued to be thrown at us.



At the village school we were initially surrounded by at least 40 of the men, women, and children of the village who all addressed the Presidente with their ideas of what they wanted to do with us. Many of the women and men were screaming that they wanted the village to kill us. We kept apologizing, pleading, and explaining ourselves in Spanish, but they would not listen and started to whip us with the ropes that they use to whip their animals. We were whipped and beaten for a few hours in between sessions of interrogation. They told us that we should have given them our documents, but we explained that typically we did not give non-official policia our documents. Many of the villagers were angry about us using the bear spray (mace), but we explained that it was self-defense and we only used it after being attacked with rocks and barricaded, forcing us to crash the truck. We told them we had been very scared when they attacked us in the truck with rocks and we apologized over and over for the miscommunication. During this time at the school we were forced to separate and they stripped us of our possessions on our persons which included my iPhone 5, my brother and sister in law´s driver´s licenses and debit cards. After a few hours of standing in the freezing rain, being whipped by villagers numerous times, and screamed at in their local language, we continued to plead for our lives, shivering and bleeding, and they eventually shut us inside the school. We again apologized and pleaded to leave without any of our belongings.



After less than an hour of being shut in the school, we were again brought out to circle of villagers of over 33 people (I counted at least 33 people that I could see but there were many in the back ground- including young children). We immediately saw that there were at least three villagers that had at least three guns, one that we know was a 20 or 12 gauge shot gun. We tried to shield ourselves from the guns and again pleaded for them not to kill us. We were forced into the middle of the circle by men holding whips and we were held at gun point while again the villagers addressed the Presidente with their stories and ideas for our lives. At least one gun shot was shot towards us in the circle. The man with the 20 or 12 guage shot gun seemed to be an unofficial police or security guard for the village. We told him our story and spent another few hours in the middle of the circle while they decided what to do with us. It was at this point that lights were shined on our injuries and the villagers could see the extent of their violent acts. There was more discussion between the villagers and we were whipped again, with my brother taking most of the beating while trying to protect us. This last portion of the village gathering was photographed and recorded by many of the villagers. They were shining bright lights in our eyes, blinding us and taking pictures of our bloody faces and bodies, and recording the conversations on their phones. After another period of conversation and pleading, we were led to a table where we saw that they had written up their version of a story that they wanted us to sign for the police. Their accident report, written in Spanish, essentially said that we had been drinking and crashed our car, which is how the car got destroyed and how we got our injuries. However, the extent of our injuries and the condition of the car far surpasses anything that could happen by driving into a grassy ditch. They also pulled out all of our legal documents that they had stolen from the car, showed us they had them, and then confiscated them again. They still possess these documents.



We were convinced that the only way we would survive was to sign the report and assure the villagers that we would tell the police that it was a car accident that caused the damage to the truck and the injuries to our bodies. Once we convinced them that we would go along with their story, they had us sign the document and ink print our fingerprints. At around 5 am, after nearly 11 hours of being attacked, chased, beaten, whipped, and held at gun point without food, sleep, or water, we were led back to the truck. All of the windows and the windshield of the truck had been broken and the camper had been broken into and all of our belongings and documents were either stolen or thrown into the muddy ditch. We were told to wait for the police before we tried to get our truck out of the ditch. There were at least 15 villagers that stood with us at the truck until the police came. These villagers made us keep telling them that we would tell the police that it was an accident. At about 6:00 am, a man came who claimed he was the police and asked us to tell him what happened. He was clearly not a real policeman so we told him the same story that was written in the report to satisfy the villagers who were watching closely over us. This man tried to convince us to go back to the school to use a phone to call the hospital, but we refused because we felt it would bring another attack on our lives. At about 7:30 am four Policia National came to the scene of the accident. We told them the same story about crashing our truck and the policemen very clearly did not believe it. The Policia National took photos of every aspect of the accident, including the condition of the truck, the scene of the accident which very clearly shows the boulder barricade that the village set up to trap us, and close-up photos of our head injuries. The policemen helped us get our truck unstuck and we were escorted out in police vehicles at around 8:00 am. We were met by an ambulance that we were told was going to transport us to the city of Cuzco, which is what we wanted as there is better medical care there and we would feel much safer there as it was further away from the village. The police had told us that they would escort the ambulance to the city of Cuzco and would drive our truck to Cuzco so that we could get it fixed. Meanwhile, on the way out of the village that we were attacked in, the police picked up a truckload of villagers who could have very well been part of our attack and brought them along with them to the same town they were escorting us to. We felt extremely unsafe.



That morning of December 30, 2012, we were brought to the town of Ocongate, Peru and asked to get out of the ambulance. We said no, that we wanted to go to Cuzco and they told us they had to clean our wounds in the Ocongate medical clinic and then we would be brought to Cuzco. While we were being treated in Ocongate, which included about 100 stitches between the three of us (most of these stitches addressing head injuries), we kept requesting to be taken to Cuzco by either the police or the ambulance. The story kept changing and soon it became apparent that we were not going to be taken to Cuzco. We had asked in the clinic to be connected to someone at the US Embassy and finally a member of the policia connected us to Amy Bakal at the US Consulate in Cuzco. We explained our situation to Amy and told her we felt very unsafe in the town that we were in. We then found a translator and had the translator tell the policia our exact account of what happened. Once we had been able to tell our story to the US Consulate and to the policia national, we started getting better treatment and were eventually taken from the medical clinic to the police station where they fed us and allowed us to get clothes out of the truck to change into as we had been sitting in bloody, muddy, wet clothing for almost 24 hours at that point. We signed an initial police report that was written by the policia national in the Spanish language in the town of Ocongate. We have copies of this police report. We left the town of Ocongate at 6:30 pm and were brought by the policia national to Cuzco. We were promised by the mayor of the village that our truck would be brought to Cuzco after the investigation by the policia. However, when we met the consulate that night in Cuzco, our policia national escorts told the consulate that they would not be driving the truck to Cuzco.



The past few days, which should have been a time for us to mentally process what happened and regain strength, have been almost as tiring as the attack itself. We have spent at least 10 – 12 hour each day in different medical clinics being examined since we were not brought to the correct medical facility in Cuzco immediately after the attack. Without the truck we have had to take taxi cabs from each medical clinic, one which we were mandated to visit by the police which was an hour outside of the city we are currently staying in. We have not been able to eat properly as all of our time has been waiting for and meeting with doctors and trying to figure out how to access our money since all but one of our debit cards were stolen. We are staying in an overpriced hotel that is supposed to give us breakfast, but has refused serving us each morning. With all of our time spent in more important areas we have had not time to look for a different place to stay.





We spent yesterday, December 31, meeting with the Amy at the US Consulate and getting medical treatment at the Clinica San Jose in Cuzco, Peru. This treatment included checking our stitches and bruises, x-rays for my sister in law, and a cat scan for my brother. We were prescribed antibiotics and pain killers by the doctor. My brother will also need extensive dental work as four of his front teeth are either knocked out or severely damaged.



We have an appointment to meet with a legal doctor tomorrow, January 2, 2013, who will examine our injuries in order to be used in court testimonies. We are meeting with the police from Ocongate, the police from Cuzco, and Amy Bakal with the US Consulate on Thursday, January 3, to submit an official statement for the police report. I was supposed to fly back to the United States tomorrow, January 2, 2013, morning, but my passport, license, and all my money and debit cards were stolen during the attack. After the attack, I do not feel comfortable traveling alone to Lima to get to the Embassy so my brother and sister in law be will be accompanying me up to Lima after we make our statements to the police on Thursday over the weekend so that I can get my emergency passport and fly back to the United States early next week.



This situation has not only been extremely traumatic both mentally and physically, but has also become a huge financial burden for the three of us. We had thousands of dollars of possessions stolen from us during the attack, our medical bills and money spent on prescriptions as well as taxi cab travel and hotel bills are growing, the damage to the truck is extensive and will be costly, the cost of replacing my passport and changing my plane ticket will be in the hundreds of dollars, and I am missing an extra week of work pay because of the need to meet with the police and then the embassy to replace my passport before I can leave the country.



A list of our tangbile stolen possessions and their approximate value is below.

Jennifer Wolfrom’s stolen possessions:

Canon Rebel Ti1 DLSR camera, wide angle DSLR lens, two lens filters and three 8 or 16 GB photo cards = $2,000
iPhone 5 = $600
Alps Mountaineering Four Season two person backpacking tent = $250
Women’s Patagonia Primaloft Nano Puff jacket = $200
Women’s Outdoor Research rain jacket = $150
Out Door Research snow gators = $120
Big Agnes Dual Core Primaloft sleeping pad = $200
700 Peruvian Soles = $350
Women’s La Sportiva mountaineering boots = $400
Princeton Tech Head Lamp = $40
US Passport = $140
Driver’s license = $25
Camelback Cloud day back pack = $80
Miscellaneous clothing = $200
Debit and Credit cards

Total: $4,755



Joseph Wolfrom and Meghan Doherty’s stolen possessions:

Women’s garmont mountaineering boots = $400
iPod = $300
Sony Vaio Lap Top and software = $4,000
Men’s Patagonia Nano Puff jacket = $200
5 gallon gas can and 5 gallons of gas = $120
Extensive First Aid Kit = $100
Men’s La Sportiva climbing shoes = $120
Garmin GPS = $300
Native polarized sunglasses = $100
Miscellaneous clothing = $300

Total: $5,940



We are unsure what the total costs of the following will be, but they are sure to be extensive:

Food, lodging, and transportation in Cuzco, Peru for an extra week
Airfare to the US Embassy in Lima, Peru for passport replacement
Food and lodging in Lima, Peru for the duration of the passport replacement process
Repairs to extensive damage to the Toyota Tacoma truck and Phoenix Pop-up camper
Medical and Dental bills for injuries acquired during the attack
Possible mental health expenses regarding trauma from the attack
Possible expense of towing the Toyota Tacoma from Ocongate to Cuzco if the policia will not drive the truck to Cuzco as promised



While we are working with the US Consulate and Embassy, as well as the Policia National of Peru, we are currently seeking financial and emotional support from any resources that are available to us. Please let me know what next steps need to be taken to apply for your support services and determine our eligibility. Additionally, if you know of any other resources that could be available to us we would greatly appreciate any advice and guidance.



Thank you,

Jennifer Wolfrom"
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Riley Whiner, the gutless jabber. Maybe you'll squirm your way into an actual point one of these days, tough guy. Yayayayayaya!!!

And sorry dude - but you're a geek...
I can see why you were so easily attacked in Mexico..
no offense - but best stay home from now on - i think you have the right idea..


Oh, really? I didn't say one thing about what happened. As usual, it is obvious you just make up facts to fit however your mood strikes. Might want to get some mood stabilizers before you post, dooood. It doesn't work here where people aren't paid to pretend you make sense.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I would have zero fears of visiting this village.

Me neither. In a gun truck.

LOL!!

Something like this sounds about right...

Armored SWAT truck is a bullet-proof, blast resistant rolling bunker



Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Hey Riley, slow your roll.

Jebus comes off as intelligent, articulate, and moderate.

Lighten up a little bud. :)

I'm not being a dick, but sometimes the stress and the long shifts your work requires translates into you posting negative stuff. I've seen it...
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Sorry Riley.. but I don't buy your interpretation of the facts.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Hey Riley, slow your roll.

Jebus comes off as intelligent, articulate, and moderate.

Lighten up a little bud. :)


Ah, he'll flame out and find something else to rant on. Thanks for the reality check anyway ;). Truth is, a little internet heat never hurt anybody, we'll both recover to our charming selves I'm sure.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Fund is currently over $17,000. Now they have enough to continue on to Argentina and onwards for more adventure while you all go back to work in dark offices. Woot! Good times.


LOL !!!!!!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Something stinks here....

I could see maybe asking or needing help getting back home.

$17,000?

WTF?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
After reading that whole thing,, and how they ask for money for "possible future trauma and mental treatments" is HILARIOUS!!!!!.


Some intrepid travelers they are KNOTT !! ROFLMAO!! I think they should just stay down there- if ya cant beat em join em...;-D
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
And yes - I have travelled more than you can probably imagine.
You can take up a collection for me to fly to Peru anytime - I will be happy to go..

just listen to riley............the biggest most arrogant blowhard that ever posted on the taco.


why the hell dont you guys get this?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
just listen to riley............the biggest most arrogant blowhard that ever posted on the taco.


why the hell dont you guys get this?


Oh, I think many of us have been feeling those warm winds blow plenty of times. It's always a ride, that's for sure. Occasionally he'll apologize when he goes completely ouf of hand.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
When we were down in South America Bolivia, Columbia, Brazil and Peru it wasn't until we got into Peru that we started getting problems.

The fuking Peruvians were thieves and we constantly were getting ripped off.

We had to constantly guard and watch our stuff.

We needed body guards in one area with machine guns to protect us from the cocaine cartel.

Those cocaine cartel fukers blew up all the bridges in that area.

When we landed at the small air strip we had to have military protection there also.

They will kill Americans in certain areas of Peru because the Americans were eradicating their drug fields with their "War on Drugs" program.

They hate Americans in certain areas, so beware.

Cuzco is relatively safe but outside the city you have to be careful of thieves, robbers and general fuk heads everywhere.

the second blowhard award goes to................
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Hawkeye, you're simply singling out people who disagreed with you on other threads.

Give it a rest and contribute something useful to the thread.

It would be a first, and I'm sure we'd be astounded by your concise assertions.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
just whose fields were these folks camping by?

more female guides -

vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
So what happened to the climbing gear? The post here and on MP labels these people as climbers.

Are there threads on Cascades or bicyling or backpacker or travel forums?

This story and shopping list makes me think that this girl thinks that Americans should be rescued by Bill Clinton and have all new American possessions waiting for them when they get back home.

4k for a laptop?? Sheeesh

Why not list 30k for a Toyota. Just leave that beater behind. Don't ship it back.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
John - they were drinking and driving on the road that dead ended at a school and refused to show their identification - it is not an interpretation - it's the facts as represented by the not very bright plaintiff.

Two whole beers between the three of them and they didn't start driving until they were threatened.

You related to this lady?

http://gma.yahoo.com/former-cop-accused-faking-duis-021947523--abc-news-topstories.html

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
"if ya cant beat em join em"
or the local Peruvian Flake version, "if you can't join them, beat them."



Vajayjay, I posted the whole thing (on P 5!) as the link wasn't working for me and I also put it here for posterity, so that if that link or the text is gone we can all reflect on it and remember the truth later at our leisure.

Prod

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
I can't find anything in any news wire about this.

Prod.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
any time you step across the border you are on your own,

even tiajuana can be dangerous on a bad night,

frickin savage pigmies, i would go back down and clean out those toothless midgets with an AK, jus sayin, a pigmy has got to know his limitations, do you feel lucky today pigmy? well do ya? nice peacock outfit pigmy, and your beer ain't bad,know you gonna die!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
Sleep, Riley. Things will start making sense again ;).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Gee, who coulda predicted this would turn into a pissing contest?

If those people had rolled like the Germans we met in Ushuaia they
wouldn't have had no probs!



APC, baby. Bring it!
Credit: Reilly
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
smells like emails i get from Botswana or other places,, asking for $$$ due to being stranded.



They should have kept their vacation money in the USA babay!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Whoh, best question de jour.
vininja

Social climber
NJ

Jan 4, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
So what happened to the climbing gear? The post here and on MP labels these people as climbers.


They did have climbing adventures. You'd think that the villagers could have used the ropes, even if pickets or deadmen were not needed to tie up their donkeys or they weren't in the gear stash to begin with. Maybe she forgot to list all the gear? Maybe the gear wasn't stolen?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
douchbag says what

"I'll be glad to kick the sh#t out of anyone of you..anytime,,just say the word"

Don't be such a dumbf*#k Riley. Bet you're a nice guy in person. I'd probably tie in with ya if you could restrain yourself from talking like a knucklehead.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Im not about to give a rip about those that chose to spend their money and vacation ELSEWHERE in these most needy times here. We have enough $$$ going to foreign countries as is. THINK on it,, then vacation in the USA- no one has seen it all...


fer shyts sake Riley,,, MELLOW OUT! Your cyber file is building,,, WHOOOSFABRA WOOOOOSFABRA...
Prod

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
I'll be glad to kick the sh#t out of anyone of you..anytime,,just say the word

Can you go after Locker for losing my shoes?

Prod.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Seriously Riley. Chill, man.

Breathe, we are all here because we are climbers.

No more threatening to meet someone in a dark alley and beat their ass, OK?

You're way better than that.

Pick a place to travel to next year or this fall, and I'm in. It'd be cool to tie in with you after all these years of Internet friendship.

Best,
Brandon
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Cavaet.. I did not read the first link. I can't get it to work. I read the second link.


I'm still not buying your interpretation Riley. Its not that I 100 percent accept their story. I don't. I thnk they mishandled it, but I also think their mishandling of it didn't need to end with them getting the sh#t kicked out of them nor their truck destroyed.

The lady who wrote the report is obviously traumatized. You have no way of knowing just what happened, but you seem to be automatically on the side of the villagers. I'm not. I'm not on either side. I tend to lean towards this being a village shakedown that went wrong and probably could have ended with just a bribe.

Just as a reminder.. the woman who wrote the report y'all are reading is not the two who were traveling down their extensively. It was the visiting sister who was only there for 10 days. Who knows what the other two will say.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
You're way better than that.

uhhh, looks like NOT better than that. Maybe should read, You "CAN" be better than that. I know that's what I'd think of Riley. Don't let folks get yer goat dude.

Ifn ya have a goat.....




Brandon says "Chill".

Brandons got it right.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Darwin awards to those who think it smart to be-bop around in third worlds.

Im sure the locals think,,,"you aint from round here R ya.."


I didnt pity the idgets on the Iran border either.. al-kay-duh is even present in Peru..
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
I've spent a fair amount of time in that part of Peru. I felt lots of tension outside of the tourist-frequented parts of the area - the local campesinos I talked to were angry about getting impacted by tourism but getting no benefit from the tourism dollars. They felt like foreigners, wealthy business people, and people in the government were getting rich while they were getting the shaft, and I can't say there are wrong about that. I changed my plans to continue on to the Lake Titicaca area after seeing protests in Cuzco, and was glad I did - villagers rioted and lynched the mayor of a town near Titicaca as I was traveling back to Lima.

I've traveled really extensively both driving and via public transport in Central and South America with no real problems, but my trouble radar has never gone off as much as it did in the Cuzco region outside of the usual Cuzco/Machu Picchu circuit. I think these people are leaving a lot out of their account and the tone in which they are soliciting money really makes me question their judgement, but it is easy to imagine how a bad situation can escalate in that area.

Some of the fear and xenophobia on display in this thread is really embarrassing.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Darwin awards to those who think it smart to be-bop around in third worlds.

You built your end of days bomb shelter yet Ron?

Come on man. Its not that bad. Just like America.. there are parts you need to be aware of, and parts that are very safe.

One thing though.. all the shuffling around by the authorities is pretty common. You have to learn to stand up for yourself.
burntheman

Trad climber
slt
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Add in a little showing off something locals couldn't afford in 8 lifetimes:

what a mid 90's toyota tacoma with a modest pop up camper?.. for driving to the tip of south america. should they have taken something more modest and reliable like a 60s ford econoline?

"After a year and half of relentless searching we finally found our baby, an extremely beat up Toyota Tacoma TRD with a great motor and only 130,000 miles all for $ 4,400"


you guys are unf*#kingbelievable.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
It is interesting to me that different folks can visit the same places and have vastly different experiences. This applies anywhere, first world, 3rd world, Wayne's world.

I'm sure the reasons for this are as varied as the individual experiences, so I won't make assumptions.

How do you appear in the eyes of others?

Me? Generally, I looked like an American, I look like a cop, I look military, I look like I could kill you with a drone strike. I think that look buys me a lot of free passes, here and elsewhere. I take advantage of it but not in any big or earth shattering ways.

I dunno about these people and what happened to them. I can take a story at face value though. No skin off my back. Peru is a f*#king dangerous place.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
John, my main point being TRAVEL AMERICA now-- it needs ALL the help it can get. Especially now..

HERE ME!?? TRAVEL AMERICA!!!!I repeat,, one more time,, TRAVEL THE US OF A, keep our money home!
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Where are Anastasia's boobs when we need them. Calm down boys.... ha

I can totally relate to the victim's situation and experience. I hate to see people picking on them now. I've traveled a bunch (years actually) in India and a good bit in Mexico and South America. I try to cut a pretty low profile, but still, I have a tone of "rich people shit" with me all the time. Phones, tablets, expensive sleeping bags and tents and stoves, bicycles, and if I'm climbing then climbing equipment. That's what we do, we travel with our expensive toys and look for adventures. Been there and done that, and I certainly can't criticize it in itself.

But then look at the world through other people's eyes. Their kids don't have shoes, their newborns die for lack of $5 of medicine. They are uneducated and undernourished. And in comes a gaggle of gringos with many thousands of dollars worth of TOYS. That really is what our equipment is. Anyway, there is naturally going to be some tension in the situation. And there is always a few teenage boys around who could care sh#t about "Christian values" taught them by their grandparents. Hell, just grab some of that good sh#t.

To me the whole world is just f*#ked, and when you go to the third world you're getting a bit closer to the simmering anger. With good karma you meet only peaceful and content peasants. With even a little bad karma you may run into some angry peasants.

I friend of mine - 67 year old itinerant yoga teacher - rode his bicycle from California heading to Usuia (southern tip of Argentina). Got his bike nicked in Lima. ha Maybe there is some truth to the rumors about Peru in particular.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Sounds like we need to be donating to the villagers who need it more Rocker. Looks like it may be possible that the travelers have more $ tied up in clothing alone than the entire village makes annually.



I've only recently been able to afford those kind of coats myself so I do recognize the value. Never been able to quit work and do this kind of a trip, but there's still hope. Regardless, I don't mean to harsh anyone's buzz and wish them well. Probably worth less till they can get the blood cleaned off anyway.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
ohn, my main point being TRAVEL AMERICA now-- it needs ALL the help it can get. Especially now..
Thats fine Ron.. and good sentiment. But you don't need to encourage it by trying to make others think that no place but america is safe to travel. That just isn't true. That was my only protest to what you said.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
America certainly is unsafe in many an area. But Mexico on down,, is MUCH worse. Entire towns are being murdered.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Where is the OP on this one... Starting to smell a rat...

Riley you seem cool, so does Jeebs. I enjoy your commentary except when you start calling people names. It's hard for people to listen when they don't feel respected..
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism

racism? really? so i'd be racist against who if i avoid going to a third world country?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
rockermike, this thread is longer a place for reasoned discourse. Please start a new one.

Thanks for the perspective.

FWIW, Lima is the only place Ive been hassled in this world. Just my 2-peso anecdote.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
The blog has an update posted today:

Peru Update and Gratitude
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
I'm headed to Central America in a week. I'll be travelling by bus and thumb.

I'm pretty sure I'll be just fine.

I realize it's not South America, but it has it's dangers as well. Not worried.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
dentists are cheap all over - except in rich countries. ha
Indian curbside dentist office

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ol-RyYnTD4
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/18/peru-releases-new-video-of-uncontacted-indians/


if these doods^^^^ find ya,, youll be the evening meal, and yur head will be shrunk on a stick..
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Ron, that was proven to be a hoax.

Check your facts man.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
http://www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/isolatedperu


You sure?? Seems i saw it on the news as well


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/long-isolated-tribe-amazon-indians-emerges-peru-outsiders-article-1.1014872


Nicolas "Shaco" Flores, a Matsiguenka Indian, was killed in November by an arrow shot into his heart, apparently by a member of the long-isolated Maschco-Piro tribe.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/long-isolated-tribe-amazon-indians-emerges-peru-outsiders-article-1.1014872#ixzz2H2yLit00


sooo,, Brandon,, mr bear story gone wrong,, check yur facts yurself man.;-)
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Looks like a good dentist.

He only takes the money if you're happy.

Americans are such stupid pussies and need a fancy dentist chair ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Brandon, be carefull on those buses down there.

You can run into doods like this guy!
He was soo ready to throw it down. Or was that up?
Credit: Reilly
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
I wouldn't think Peru is going to reimburse them, I'd focus on getting out of there fast and recovering with family.

In fact the bill for medical treatment will be delivered to the U.S. embassy who will pay it. Or should I say you and I will pay it.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
These events are sad...and thankfully, rare.

I spend a lot of time in Ecuador, and have traveled exstensively throughout the country. Upon entering the country, my antenna go WAY up....I become very situational aware....but no different than I would in South Central LA.

There are simply areas one should avoid..certainly times of day or night that one needs to take care...and simply obeying local customs and blending in goes a LONG way in adding to safety.....keep a low profile.

Also, when possible, travel with a local....spend a few bucks, find someone you can trust, and have them hang with you as a guide.....it won't cost you much, you will make a great friend(s), and trouble can be more readily avoided.

Above all, I do not believe we need to let events such as this one dissuade us from venturing out. The world is a great place...dangers aside...and experiencing new cultures makes us a better people all the way around.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
I dunno, this is reading more and more like a Nigerian-esque scam...
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
HEY,


When is the right time to get travel insurance/rescue insurance??



https://www.globalrescue.com/


Between AAC, credid cards, health insurance, DAN for scuba, AAA, ETC......

I am covered for pretty much anything that could happen at home and internationally.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
..but no different than I would in South Central LA.


uhhhhroger that Cragman lol! (code for i WISH i had my M16!)
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Hey Ron, this is what I was thinking of, is it the same story you were referencing?

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newly-released-photos-of-uncontacted-amazon-indian-tribe-give-us-a-glimpse-of-another-world?lite
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Nope Brandon... i posted a few links...
Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Was this Quechua Indians?
Give Peruvians a break.
Two different peoples there.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Facebook Peru would be a place to look to find posts made by the attacking villagers who were using their cell phones to take pictures.

One of these days, after a few more glasses of pisco, one of those criminals will decide its a good idea to post images of bleeding Americans being whipped and stoned.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
A former friend of mine tried to throw the same jibes you are attempting, Riley, instinctively assuming the ugly American waded into the situation. I could only laugh later when he was held up at machete point. Karma's a bitch

Laugh it up jebus, I bet your homecoming after that trip was a real huckleberry.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
I'm more cautious when I pull down a dirt road in the Western US... always pointing the vehicle in a direction with multiple exits... always with everything in order to hasten my escape in case some uneducated redneck wants to start sh#t like they used to do in UT/ID.

I can't imagine pulling down an unknown dirt road in Peru with a fancy rig like that, sipping a beer, and not being prepared to flee at the drop of a hat.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Maybe I shouldn't have pulled up this thread as I'm in the San Francisco airport flying to Delhi.

Karl, I'm super jealous. Is this your final destination? I dont know if you've been there before but Dehli was way too overcrowded and chaotic for me. India has pickpockets and very aggressive scammers, but no one will lay a finger on you. Never mind the recent gang rape on a bus, ahem.

I dream of the day when I have 2 solid months to disappear from work. I'd see more of India, but spend most of it in Nepal. Paradise on earth on more ways than one.
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Looks like this couple was on a great road trip. Till it went bad.

6000 miles of road tripping to the south.

Doesn't really look like these people are hurting for money when they tossed out $20,000 on a truck to start with.

http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com

After a year and half of relentless searching we finally found our baby, an extremely beat up Toyota Tacoma TRD with a great motor and only 130,000 miles all for $ 4,400. Spent nearly $3,000 replacing, fixing and beefing up the rig. Today we got the first glimpse of our new Phoenix pop-up camper and it is AWESOME! ($??,???)

http://phoenixpopup.com/floor-plans/
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
..but no different than I would in South Central LA.

I've spent quite a bit of time working in the streets in South Central Los Angeles. Met lots of nice folks there, living in tidy well kept neighborhoods. Your stereotypes are often off base, Ron. Maybe you shouldn't be living in Bumf*#k Egypt, Nevada. It might open your mind to get out into the real world.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Laugh it up jebus, I bet your homecoming after that trip was a real huckleberry.


Ahhahahaha... yes, I'm still laughing. Backstabber POS gets Karmic lesson at the end of a knife. Life is good (and sometimes fair), thanks for checking in ;).
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Has Luke Stong been seen in Peru?
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Ahhahahaha... yes, I'm still laughing. Backstabber POS gets Karmic lesson at the end of a knife. Life is good (and sometimes fair), thanks for checking in ;).

That must feel good.

I must confess the word Karma popped into my head when but a month after you posted on the taco how when you hear someone died soloing, you hoped it was me, you proceeded to rap off your rope and break your back... while drunk.

Hope you get out of the body cast soon.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
maybe it was a bunch of rock throwing howler monkeys,

but how could you tell the difference?

not by the smell, thats fo sizzle my bizzle,

no wait, monkeys have teeth,

maybe those savages never seen a white man before, best to put on some shoe polish and grow a mustache,
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
That must feel good.

I must confess the word Karma popped into my head when but a month after you posted on the taco how when you hear someone died soloing, you hoped it was me, you proceeded to rap off your rope and break your back... while drunk.

Hope you get out of the body cast soon.


Hahaha... my but you're a sensitive cuss. I'm all good, dude, no body cast, thanks for stalking ;). Funny thing is I don't hang with your exes or pump mutual acquaintances for info., writing you love letters every so often. That continues to be your gig.

Now my only regret is the machete didn't make contact :(. Oh boy, this should be good for a tear or another deep dish episode from you ;). What else you got? Anything good?
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
lotta haters

looks legit. checked the facebook pics. looks like a couple just living the dream for 5- 6 months. they were doin' it, too. Photos look wonderful, they stuff they'd been doing
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Jenny: We are not flashy people and we had just come from a four-day backpacking trip. We were basically in jeans and hiking boots. The truck that Meghan and Jed drive is a 1998 Tacoma with many dents, holes, and a lot of rust. Not something you would typically look at and translate into wealth.

Wow. They're from Jackson Hole, too?

These sound like the kind of people who would get their asses kicked just about anywhere.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
OK, the dude's teeth got knocked out; $10K for quality implants.
The woman didn't get raped; she should consider herself lucky.
The truck got dinged; BFD. You got schooled so let Daddy pay for yer
schooling, like he probably already did. You weren't on a bus in India.
Move on like big first world kiddies and buy yer own damn iPhone.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
No, don't have much else for you Jebus. Amusing watching you post all sorts of travel advice based on your lifetime one month out of the country... which you spent entirely in Potrero Chico.

Good luck with rehab.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
My experience says;
Don't travel/drive at night.
Do your homework, ie, know the villages/roads/political micro-climate of your route and over-nights.
Hire a guide.
Rent a car/truck there. Take public transportation.
Don't travel with your electronics/computers/whatever. Small digital to record your trips are easily kept out of sight while in towns ect..
Don't drink in public, except in a cafe /restaurant.
Don't be naive."Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred" It takes just one village idiot, on one bad night, to ruin your trip.
Always carry copies of your docs, never hand over the originals.
Always have the contact info for your Government representatives plugged into a LOCALLY RENTED phone with plenty of time on it.
Always remember, you are not in Kansas anymore. Not even in the first world. You are a long way from anywhere and must be ever vigilant and very low key.
And on and on....Even then, bad things happen to good people. These kind of things happen all over the third world. There were a lot of mitigating factors at work here; including plain bad luck. I feel for these folks. My observations are based on 12 years of travel to South America and specifically to Peru around Cuzco and up north around Huaraz and the Andes. Including a drive from Veracruz, Mexico to Panama City, Panama in Jan, 1983, during and through at least 3 shooting wars in Central America. My experience has been always been uniformly positive in dealing with locals, Quechua, and Campesinos. My heart goes out to these very unfortunate folks.
TY
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Thanks Tony.. I appreciate your perspective.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Hopefully the Policia mow down everyone in that entire area with machine guns. You can't fuk with US citizens like that, even if they come to your village/hood uninvited. We have rights gawd damn it!

I wonder if (brown) foreigners wouldn't get similar treatment if they pulled down a dirt road leading to a small village in Alabama or Aridzona and started doing their thing as if they were right at home.


I've always tried to follow basically what TYeary said. I find it a pain in the ass, so I don't travel as much as others. But when I hear about this kind of stuff, I'm not too surprised. Hell, we had our window broken in, covered with glass, and tear gassed by the CRS in France of all places. If the guy driving hadn't flown across the earthen divider and hightailed it out of there, almost hitting some of the crowd, things could have been much worse.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
So much bickering and arguing.

People are strange and at times mean everywhere you go.

This one time, I watched a Tico smoke crack and then go into his one room apartment and start jerking off.

I wasn't smoking crack and bailed immediately.

Sometimes things in other countries are too strange and different to comprehend.

prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
I wonder if (brown) foreigners wouldn't get similar treatment if they pulled down a dirt road leading to a small village in Alabama or Aridzona and started doing their thing as if they were right at home.

in Aridzona it would be much worse but it would be "brown" people doing the hitting and kicking.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
No, don't have much else for you Jebus. Amusing watching you post all sorts of travel advice based on your lifetime one month out of the country... which you spent entirely in Potrero Chico.

Good luck with rehab.


Travel advice? Okay, good to know you're also scrutinizing my many travel columns... I've written. Strange guy, you need a new hobby, it's more than unbecoming at your age.

It's true though, I admittedly have a pretty bare travel resume. Nothing so distinctive as suffering at the hands of a highway computer bandito, LOL. I only hope he gave to the poor afterward ;).
Brian

climber
California
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
I guess my question is: Why didn't the US Consulate get them to the US Embassy ASAP?

Having spent a good deal of time abroad, and having been in contact with US consular officials in various developing nations, I would seriously consider running for the Canadian or UK embassy in a crisis in hopes they'd cover me...

Apologies to all the US State Department officials out there who are, no doubt, doing a good job. I've just had some bad experience....

Brian
neverwas

Mountain climber
ak
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Just an unrelated anecdote, but a buddy and I were confronted by an angry bunch of villagers in Ecuador after a several day outing to climb the Sangay volcano in the late 70's. My understanding is that there was talk of creating a national park or the like in the area, and they probably viewed us as part of that movement to limit use or access to their land. No violence occurred, no comparison to this event, but it was scary and we were relieved to climb onto the bus and get away from there.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:29pm PT



Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss

Jan 4, 2013 - 11:25am PT
"I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas."

Yeah, that's a tough one when you're driving. Walking, maybe.

Not tough. Local guides often come with their own cars. Escort you, hire another driver with van to haul you around, etc. it's typical. Not dirtbag cheap, but definitely safer than driving yourself around. They know the roads, speak the language, know the politics...
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Credit: abrams



the tone of this official travel advice makes me want to stay the f out of peru

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/south-america/peru1


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Hmm, the thread title says help climbers.
I haven't seen anything climby related in all this.
Not that it really matters much, just sorta curious.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Always have the contact info for your Government representatives plugged into a LOCALLY RENTED phone with plenty of time on it.

Over the top. Your head is so far in the sand over this.

I have some similar travel advice to those considering visiting a sewer: Wear rubber boots, waders and a mask - and no matter what everyone says, don't eat the chocolate covered truffles.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
the tone of this official travel advice makes me want to stay the f out of peru

From your link..


Around 56,000 British tourists visit Peru every year. Most visits are trouble free. Fifty British nationals required consular assistance in Peru in the period April 2011 - March 2012, including for three deaths, 11 hospitalisations and 17 arrests.



I wonder what the statistics are for 56000 Britains in England.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
neverwas - Ecuador did create a park around the Sangay volcano. This was one of my first trips to South America, about 20 years ago. After getting guided up cotopaxi, I asked a backpacker travel guide where to go to get away from the tourists, and she put me on a plane to Macas, the town near to Sangay, populated by the Shuar, traditional headhunters. When I arrived I immediately met some guys who said they were on a UNESCO mission and invited me to come along. The deal was, I paid for their gas and they let me ride in the back of their pickup truck and gave me a fun tour.

My spanish was not good at the time, and it took a few days before I understood our mission. We would hike into the Sangay park (technically a tiger preserve, paid for by the UN, who pays the govt not to develop it) and follow reports of settlements, then tell the colonists they had to leave. People just go into the jungle there, plant corn and start homesteading. The Ecuadorans had to kick the colonists out to keep the UN money flowing.

Several years later, I returned to Ecuador and found that my friend from UNESCO had taken a job with an oil company, and his job was public relations with the locals. I was seriously disappointed in him.

Sangay itself is a perfect cone of a volcano, but doesnt get climbed much because it's extremely active. Normally covered in glaciers, but you can see pictures of when it erupts and all the ice melts off. Another thing to know, is that hardly anyone there speaks Spanish (they speak Shaur, Achaur, Quecha etc) so you really do need a guide.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Over the top. Your head is so far in the sand over this.

Whats your problem? Tony is a decent person. You don't have to attack everyone just because the tone of this thread has deteriorated.
Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
Been to Peru twice. Pretty fantastic mountain scenery. If this was Quechua Indians, which it probably was, then it doesn't really surprise me. Poverty definitely oppresses their spirits. Extremely poor and uneducated. They have this amazing history in the Sacred Valley near Cusco and smart and wealthy Peruvians are making all the money. They are amazing weavers, some of the best on the planet, yet they seemed quite suppressed from the Peruvian Government and people. I'd want an ipod too if I was living in an adobe house with pigs and my own sh*t. Lack of education with these people and a huge movement of tourism into their most sacred thing of all, their land.
Sorry about the beating. I would have fought back. There comes a point when you quit saying 'Im sorry can we go?' and you just GO! Before the guns come out, ya know.
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Sangay is a lot easier to get around nowadays. Take a bus to Riobamba and get a park permit at the park headquarters there. Then take some local buses to Alau. From there, hike up the road until it ends and then try not to get lost in the jungle - 3 days to the base of Sangay from Alau. I tried to go in there with skis but bailed halfway though after seeing how little snow was left on the mountain and how difficult getting skis through the jungle is. Fun hare-brained adventure anyway.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Thanks John M. I appreciate that. JLP, you're a funny guy! TY
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
7,519,001 Peruvians and others can't be wrong

Please, Please

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Read the first few pages, sounds like the perfect storm of impoverished resentful locals and (forgive me, Werner) stupid Americans, and (yup) women drivers.

Bear spray? Really?!! Yeah great, "Looks like we're cornered. Lets see if we can REALLY piss them off before they get us!"

Of course by then they had already made a series of compounding errors.

How about making a PLAN and using a map and convoying for security and maintaining condition yellow and mudding up the car and hiding the expensive gear and,... aw hell, I give up. Some people couldn't buy a clue with a stack of coin.

I don't even know what a Nano Puf is, but if I was a poor peasant then just for shlts and giggles I would likely chuck a rock at some stupid unarmed twit that had one.

Does it really go puff? Better question, with nobody dead and $16K+ in sympathy how many people learned lessons?
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
they stripped us of our possessions on our persons which included my iPhone 5,
Bright modern outdoor clothing,bright packs and modern vehicles make you stick out like a sore thumb in any third world country.Traveling by bus and staying at lodgings in towns at night is a far safer way to travel. I admire their adventurous spirit and feel bad that this happened to them but I think they were quite naive and their style of travel made them vunerable.
A climber friend of mine who always wears the best arcteryx clothing and has the best gear took a cab from the Lima airport with a friend to head into the Andes for climbing. The driver obviously scoped them out with all the expensive gear and took them out in the boonies where he met up with an accomplice. They were robbed at gun point and at some point bolted for the bushes and were shot at. They lost everything but were not injured. When I travelled through India and Nepal I had a shitty old grey courdura pack and never wore flashy coloured clothing and had a dirtbag beard,never had a problem.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:01am PT



Did someone do something wrong?

Did someone do something right?

Some are more privileged.

Crazy Humanity!

What is tangible ?
sullly

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:02am PT
This thread has it all. Even Lake Titicaca. Thirty minutes well spent!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:03am PT
I believe dental implants vary widely from location to location in the U.S.

If Joseph receives dental work in a resort area such as his hometown Jackson, WY the costs could be quite high for implants with an abutment and crown. Driving over the mountains into Rexburg, ID, he might procure a very competent dentist and significantly lower prices.

I received two broken front teeth but there was enough tooth left that I only required crowns. An Idaho dentist did both teeth for $2100 total and did very good work...of course with an implant and abutment beforehand, the combined price would have likely been more than double that sum.
Butch

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:00am PT
I read this horrible story yesterday when there were only a handfull of posts and I was dumbfounded. Wishing all the best for these three and if I could afford it I would send money. I came rushing back here after watching something on netflix ... just finished watching it not but 5 min ago... it struck such a nerve in me and made me think of this story I felt compelled to share my thoughts of why a community / village of men, women and even ...and even children would be part of such inhumane treatment of anyone...but more specifically Americans. As I read through a few posts by Rohod - Router, Riley Wyna , Crunch and others I thought I might be the only one to throw out my theory ... until the very last post I read by T*R ...Who I think nailed it. The movie I watched on Net Flix was "Coca Lives". Very eye opening on the failed drug wars that America imposes on another country with that "carrot on the stick called money" and who's lives it really destroys. Truly explained why a whole village armed with whistles and rocks would turn out to defend their lively hood An eye opening movie that should be watched. It may shed some light on what really was happening in this village.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:46am PT
"""For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys but I don’t think that will happen. Any ho carefull where you camp and I will fill you in on all the gory details latter. jed """"

Green beray? No I don't think it will happen either Jed. If you can't spell the name of their headgear, they won't go kill villagers for you.

Sheesh, this dude writes like a third grader.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:02am PT
Wow, quite disheartening to see quite a few of you armchair observers are awfully comfortable spewing criticism and judgement at the victims.

This situation was about as bad as it gets.

While climbing in Bolivia in 2004, there had been a number of similar incidences reported of mob villager attacks. These were not robberies, but large groups of villagers ambushing camping travelers, hurling rocks at them, burning their cars, hellbent on murder and destruction, with the victims running for their lives with only the shirts on their backs. In Sorata, a particularly scenic mountain town, a traveler's hotel was surrounded and the Bolivian army had to be called in to drive the villagers away, a few were killed.

While most travelers will never encounter situations like this, it is important to understand the potential of the evil that can appear and escalate out of control. These three are lucky to be alive.

Some areas have reputations of having hostile villagers and need to be given a wide berth.

No need to be paranoid or write entire countries off from your travel itinerary, but learn as much as you can and prepare for the worst and make prudent decisions.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:02am PT
Not having travelled to Peru, I cannot really comment on the land or people. But as there are two sides to every story (and then some), we have really only heard one side. I suspect, and this is total speculation that, reading the comments on this thread from those who have been there (with both good and bad experiences) that, as usual with many issues, the truth lies somewhere in between.

If I had the money I would contribute to their medical expenses, but not anything else, ie gear, iPhones, further travel (except back to the States), etc.

BUT...

What I can comment on is, like many threads, this one has deteriorated into name calling, and that is not nice. Keep it civil, keep it adult and keep it reasonable. That's my two cents worth.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:15am PT
This sort of crime can happen anywhere. I've had armed thugs bust into my home in the USA and threaten to kill me while they robbed my place. You don't see me writing trip reports about a viciously attacked climber.

I'm very sorry that anyone has to go through something like this. Sounds like their "innocence cherry" was busted badly. But if you travel into remote areas, you're taking risks and you gotta take responsibility for what happens to you.

We went caving along the Syrian border in March 2012, and we hired armed guards with AK-47s.
Caving along the Syria border with our armed escort
Caving along the Syria border with our armed escort
Credit: Sierra Ledge Rat
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:48am PT
I agree with Fear and others, something stinks here, or at least doesn't seem "right". Now that I have read all of the comments to date and have read links and stories elsewhere Okay MP, and it is much the same). Maybe I am being cynical, but I see some sort of movie deal and books in the future for these people.

I just have to be objective and wonder how much of this story is true or at least factual.

And I agree that $17,000 is a lot of money to get back to the States.

I still see a movie deal and film rights in the future, whether these people did or didn't experience what they have written. As far as I can see, we only have their words for it. I'd like to see some sort of official report from either or both the US government or Peruvian authorities.

It would make a story/film that many Americans would buy the book or pay the cinema to see Americans being ill-treated in a far away land.

These people are asking for money from the public. If their claims are legit, so be it and best of luck to them. But...

I am not by nature a cynic, but something doesn't seem right with their story.

I am facing eviction if I do not get my back rent on time, in a house that I have made safe and secure for Jennie, pumping a lot of my money into it, but my landlord doesn't care.

Should I go online to one of these fund-raising sites? I was beat up by a bunch of leprechauns (little feckers) who stole my savings, and then... the Banshee showed up at my door. Shudder.

I am writing a book about it now.

Is the Peru story a scam of some sorts? Perhaps time will tell. If I had the money a) to hire somebody to look and care after Jennie for the needed time to b) travel to Peru and c) find a good interpreter/local to d) try and interview those in the village to e) try and ascertain what did happen, as well as interview, face to face the travelers involved, that would be something.

Marcellus: Something is rotten in the state of (Peru and/or the travellers' story).

EDIT

And I also agree why post the original 'story' midway through the thread when the link in the OP sufficed.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:09am PT
This thread is like a Rorshcach test for people's outlook on foreign travel, global inequality, shiny new gear etc. The level of prejudicial speculation is off the charts. I guess we'll have to see whatever version of the truth surfaces.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:13am PT
Rorshach? Darn Rhodo-Router, stop using big words, now I have to get my dictionary out. ;-)

I guess we'll have to see whatever version of the truth surfaces.

Being stuck at home as a full-time carer (I'd just as soon be out working), I have a lot of time on my hands and I have yet to come across any other version of the incident than what the travelers have written.

If somebody knows a link or article on the villagers' version, please post it.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:04am PT
If somebody knows a link or article on the villagers' version, please post it.
Head::InButt

If you find a version of this kind of story ever told on this planet during the history of man that doesn't basically sum up to wanting to take a richer man's money - please be sure to post it!
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:09am PT
I'm very sorry for what has happened to these folks, but it must be said that this type of a trip to Peru is exactly what to do if you want this kind of trouble.

To take your truck to Peru from the USA, and make the same kind of car camping trip that I make to the Valley, or southern Utah is pretty naive to begin with. Then to go to a remote location like the region they were in and just pull over on a dirt road to camp out would draw attention from the poverty-stricken locals. The locals were most likely attempting to simply rob them; the use of rock barricades to stop vehicles is a common tactic in robberies that I have heard about in numerous cases in Peru. This includes robberies that occurred in much less remote places than the Ausungate region. Then, fighting the locals by not giving up their documents, and spraying them with bear spray turned the situation into a desperate struggle to survive.

I have traveled in almost all the various regions of Peru in eleven trips I have made there. I have thought about avoiding a scenario like this many times, and these folks made all of the mistakes possible. Any experienced international traveler, who travels discretely and respectfully could have predicted the outcome of a journey such as this. Any person in Lima would have warned these folks against such a trip. I'm amazed that they were not killed.

With due respect, this is a story of how the "ugly" American travels around the world clueless of the local cultural and socioeconomic factors, and gets themselves in trouble only to hope that the local American consulate will bail them out of trouble (which it generally is not inclined to do.) Safe travel in these kind of poor places is done by making wise decisions; not idealistic itineraries. This situation says a lot more about the kind of travelers these folks are, than it does about traveling in Peru or other poor countries. They truly are lucky it did not end worse.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:16am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257577/Terror-American-family-brutally-attacked-traveling-Peru-villagers-whip-knock-teeth-rocks-shoot-them.html

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3370-report-three-american-tourists-brutally-attacked-in-cusco-province/


Hey JLP, I am just questioning the veracity of the story.

Head::InButt

No need to insult me. I have never dissed you and never will in all likelihood.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Latin America = giant sh#t hole.

In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old.

No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back.

No, Latin America is not a giant sh#t hold, nor is it a bunch of happy-go-lucky folks singing to guitars and taking siestas.

Like most of the world, Latin America is very poor. People that live outside of the major cities and towns have hostilities toward their central government, because they just cannot escape living in the dirt. (Yes, even with their cell phones). In some cases, Americans personify their view of injustice in the world.

JLP is correct in that to travel in these places requires watching your back 24/7. It goes with the territory of third world travel. These folks from Jackson, Wyoming were clearly flaunting themselves as targets, and not at all watching their backs. Again, sorry for what happened, but grow up and get a clue.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:31am PT
BigMike
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:35pm PT

Where is the OP on this one... Starting to smell a rat...

BigMike, I feel the same way, but we could be wrong.


EDIT

t*r
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:21pm PT

Those links do not endear me to the story. If indeed these travellers' story is true, then...

...but it also could be a case (and I am not saying it is) of one of self-aggrandisement. I could easily post stuff on the internet and in blogs that would not be questioned by many, but then...

With the internet and such, it is easy for stories to be picked up and given credence to by blogs, forums, lazy journalists (something I know a lot about).
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Latin America is not a giant sh#t hold
Yes it is! Septic systems and sewers, drinkable water? No. What else is a giant shithole? This place defines it. Sh#t everywhere.

I do generally agree with your points, though.

It's super obvious who in this thread has been through a 3rd world road block, and who hasn't - regardless of their opinion of it.

Pretty interesting shots linked to above - nice flashy cloths in the market with EVERYONE looking at them - forget the truck.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:46am PT
vininja asked:
"Why the need to copy and past the whole letter on the 5th page? A good link was on page one. Unneeded post"
I replied:
"Vajayjay, I posted the whole thing (on P 5!) as the link wasn't working for me and I also put it here for posterity, so that if that link or the text is gone we can all reflect on it and remember the truth later at our leisure."
WML said:
"Looks like they redacted their item list; saved for posterity on the fifth page of this thread by someone else. Good call."





We have always been at war with Oceania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:50am PT
t*r

i just found this... answers accusations of scamming:

http://www.planetjh.com/news/A_109001.aspx

What does that prove, it is still a one side of the story told to a home-town newspaper, and I know journalists, believe me, they can be 'gullible' (I am being nice) when there is a story, especially about a local person. I'd like to see what the Peruvian papers/journalists have to say. I guess I have a bit of googling to do.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:52am PT
This story is reminiscent of an experience I had in Caraz, Peru several years ago. We were traveling back to Huaraz after being in the mountains, and the main road in the Callejon de Huaylas was shut down for a labor strike. Labor strikes typically last for two days in Peru, and they happen frequently. So we just decided to hole up in a local hostal and find some cheap beer to wait out the strike.

In town, people were getting pretty fired up about the strike. No problem for me and my friend as we were just laying low. Then we meet this young, clueless traveling American who wants to "experience" the strike up closer. He tells us that he's headed to the Plaza de Armas, where the local men are getting all fired up and pissed off, to see it up close.

Clueless and arrogant: as if the world was made for young, relatively wealthy Americans to have their experiences so that they can go home and tell stories of daring do in exotic locations. Really reminds me of these young folks in this situation. Well, they got their story didn't they??
WBraun

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:52am PT
In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account
requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Peru this Week was able to confirm that the official mentioned in the blog post works at the US consulate, but the official declined to comment on the events.
According to El Comercio, Cusco’s office on foreign trade and tourism confirmed the incident, based on reports from the Ocongate police station, but said no formal complaint had yet been placed.

No formal complaint? What? They haven't pressed charges?? Hmm.... Interesting.... Still no independant stories on this one, everything refers back to their blog. At least the OP made somewhat of an effort on this one, he did make four posts before starting his money troll....


weezy

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Back in my day, these kind of incidents got filed under "objective danger".

Dangerous bridge crossings, seracs, angry mobs. It's all part of the approach to the base of the slag heap.

Doesn't anyone value adventure anymore?

harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Here Here, well said

I'm very sorry for what has happened to these folks, but it must be said that this type of a trip to Peru is exactly what to do if you want this kind of trouble.

To take your truck to Peru from the USA, and make the same kind of car camping trip that I make to the Valley, or southern Utah is pretty naive to begin with. Then to go to a remote location like the region they were in and just pull over on a dirt road to camp out would draw attention from the poverty-stricken locals. The locals were most likely attempting to simply rob them; the use of rock barricades to stop vehicles is a common tactic in robberies that I have heard about in numerous cases in Peru. This includes robberies that occurred in much less remote places than the Ausungate region. Then, fighting the locals by not giving up their documents, and spraying them with bear spray turned the situation into a desperate struggle to survive.

I have traveled in almost all the various regions of Peru in eleven trips I have made there. I have thought about avoiding a scenario like this many times, and these folks made all of the mistakes possible. Any experienced international traveler, who travels discretely and respectfully could have predicted the outcome of a journey such as this. Any person in Lima would have warned these folks against such a trip. I'm amazed that they were not killed.

With due respect, this is a story of how the "ugly" American travels around the world clueless of the local cultural and socioeconomic factors, and gets themselves in trouble only to hope that the local American consulate will bail them out of trouble (which it generally is not inclined to do.) Safe travel in these kind of poor places is done by making wise decisions; not idealistic itineraries. This situation says a lot more about the kind of travelers these folks are, than it does about traveling in Peru or other poor countries. They truly are lucky it did not end worse.











wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
JLP, people gotta sh#t, whether the money is there for sewage systems or not. I've been to villages in east Africa where people are just hiking down their pants while standing next to the road, and taking a crap. Kinda shocking when you see it the first time, but once you get used to it, doesn't really take away from the natural beauty of the place, or the cultural interest of the local people.

These three young wankers continue to show themselves as spoiled brats.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
A bit off topic but...

we would hike into the Sangay park (technically a tiger preserve,

no offence DonPaul, but don't you mean perhaps jaguar? Tigers are in Asia.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
I wouldn't even imagine asking my FAMILY for donates to help replace gear stolen on a climbing trip, especially to a 3rd world country.

A couple guys I knew went to Venezuela to climb some teetering pile of choss. They got all kinds of shiny new gear and clothes. I got a great deal on the shiniest of the shiny and the rest was to stay in the bottom of the bag until the climbing started.

Another friend just had her iPhone stolen out of her hand in Paris. She chased the guy down, punched him in the head, took her phone, and posted it on facebook 5 min later.

Hopefully something good comes out of this thread... either the realization for some that traveling in 3rd world countries (or anywhere really) is not a excerpt from and REI travel catalog, or at least a big heads up for the youngins who are starting to consider big travels. I'm not a big traveler, but I'm always aware when I do travel. It is interesting when you realize you may very well be the ONLY person in Paris with blue jeans and a puffy.


56. Strange lands and separation are the wanderer's lot.
When a man is a wanderer and stranger,
he should not be gruff nor overbearing.
He has no large circle of acquaintances,
therefore he should not give himself airs.
He must be cautious and reserved;
in this way he protects himself from evil.
If he is obliging toward others, he wins success.

A wanderer has no fixed abode; his home is the road.
Therefore he must take care to remain upright and steadfast,
so that he sojourns only in the proper places,
associating only with good people.
Then he has good fortune and can go his way unmolested.

I Ching, written a few years ago or something
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
i can't afford a regular cell phone never mind an i phone...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
When it comes out I am not buying Three Cups Of Coca.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
JLP, people gotta sh#t, whether the money is there for sewage systems or not. I've been to villages in east Africa where people are just hiking down their pants while standing next to the road, and taking a crap. Kinda shocking when you see it the first time, but once you get used to it, doesn't really take away from the natural beauty of the place, or the cultural interest of the local people.

So we agree it's a giant shithole, then. I will never get "get used to" rampant and uncontained sh#t, garbage and disease.

This is a culture with a really low IQ. It's been tested and compared to the rest of the world, with Africa at the bottom by a long way. This is the reason for thier economic and living conditions. It's certianly not a lack of natural resources.

I find Europe and parts of Asia more interesting these days, myself.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Holy fuking ignorant
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.

Werner sometimes I do not agree with you, most of the time I do, and I certainly do now.

My mom always said: "Patrick you are a good judge of people, but the biggest procrastinator I have met."

Well, if mom is right and I am a good judge of people, I smell bullshite with these people's story.

If they are honest, okay. If they are scamming people out of money, there must be some sort of law that can nail them. Today Show? Does that surprise me. More money for them, eh.

Perhaps they really did mess up and found themselves in a bad situation. But their actions (posting a blog a day after on the internet, looking for donations - and if Riley Wyna is correct, that they were looking for money even before the so-called incident - giving interviews, etc) are anything to go by, something does not add up.

Perhaps they ran out of money and were looking for easy money? Perhaps they were looking for some illicit substances? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

I am not going to give a penny to them, because, I do not have a penny to give to begin with, and I suspect they may be chancers secondly, though I could be wrong.

It just does not add up. As I mentioned before, especially with the story going viral and Today Show talk, I see book and film rights for these three well-off kids.

But the truth will out.

Now, to add, the Irish government refuses to believe my story that I was mugged by a bunch of leprechauns who stole my life savings. And that a Banshee showed up at my door. Go figure. It did happen. And my landlord does not believe it either. So it looks like the safe haven I have created for Jennie (with her medical condition) is going to be gone and social services will try to find a safe, secure and affordable environment for Jennie and I to live. And Boots the cat too. (NB, by being her full-time carer in home care I am saving the taxpayers four to five times what it would cost for State care. The Carer's Association reckon that homecarers like myself save the Irish economy some €4bn a year.)

When Jennie came out of hospital (58 days, summer 2010) after the initial diagnosis, and the doctors and social worker said that she had two options - home care (me) or State care, there was no doubt in my mind. Even though several people said to put her in State care and have a life, I could not do it. She was my partner.

I had over €100,000 of mine at my disposal. I could have gone climbing anywhere.

Why do I mention this? What does it have to do with the thread?

Simply because I chose the less selfish way. Not that I am an angel or saint. Far from it.

I do not see the three storytellers going the "less selfish way".

To repeat Werner's assessment...

In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
So not much different than the U.S., we have all the toilets you could want & yet people sh#t at every climbing area there is.
I was at Half Moon Bay a couple of weeks ago, and someone sh-t in the packing lot, at the beach -- 30 feet from where they sh-t there was on open out house.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
JLP never got used to the concept of putting your toilet paper in a wastebasket.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Weren't people pretty skeptical of the incident Tommy Caldwell had years ago? Tommy seems like a good guy and I don't doubt his story. I'm just a little weary of people accusing others of false trip reports.

Most likely, they were not careful travelers and got themselves fuked and now they are begging for help. I'm certainly not helping them replace their iPhun.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Thats pretty much how I see it too Wes. Who knows what the real story is.

but this is really funny..

Here is an intercepted private message from face book - which reads much different from the blog


"""For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys but I don’t think that will happen. Any ho carefull where you camp and I will fill you in on all the gory details latter. jed """"

Ah.. to live in times with instant access to bullsh#t.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Three Cups Of Puf?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Mechrist, I was thinking the same thing. But did Tommy, Beth et al go on the Today Show?

What does a guest appearance pay? My google search says anywhere from $0-$700. But the added benefits of free publicity and crying on America's shoulder should be worth considerably more, especially if there are future film/book rights involved. (and of course expenses, transportation and accommodation are also paid for by the network).

If their story is true, then it sounds like monumental ignorance and stupidity on their part (and bad luck? that they may have caused themselves). Why should they profit from it?

If their story is not true (or at the very least embellished to their benefit, ,at the cost of donors), there must be some law against chancers.


EDIT

And I will find those leprechauns that roughed me up and took my savings.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
remember, this is the writing of someone who has just experienced something highly traumatic. i'd take that writing with a grain of salt.

I would take it with a grain of salt that its even him writing this.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
If they do go on some stupid show, I hope they have the balls to call into question their apparently arrogant attitude while traveling abroad.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
I was talking to Chris Benway in Huaraz about this situation. He said,

"Yeah, the whole situation sounds not exactly easy to comprehend. What you might also find interesting is that - as of now - there is a 100% news blackout in Peru on this story. Coincidence? "

I think there is a lot more here than meets the eye, or reaches the ear as it were.
I try not to get suckered into these things, but I have to say, JLP, your fear and ignorance is astounding.
TY
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Does everyone now see how dangerous cultural appropriation is ?
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
This is a culture with a really low IQ. It's been tested and compared to the rest of the world, with Africa at the bottom by a long way. This is the reason for thier economic and living conditions. It's certianly not a lack of natural resources.

JLP, you don't think colonialism and its legacy has anything to do with it? Your above statement leads me to conclusions about your IQ.

You're right about the natural resources. Peru has had an economic growth rate for the last 10 years that Americans can only dream of, due to its natural resources. Still, due to government corruption and other factors, none of that trickles down to folks outside of Lima (very few in Lima actually benefit from it either) which is why people out of the capital are perpetually skeptical toward outsiders.

I guess this is where you and I part ways in our world view. And by the way, I have never felt more threatened than in the Gare de Lyon in Paris, nor I have stepped in more sh#t than poodle crap on the sidewalks in Chamonix.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Here is a short story that I wrote sometime ago. Though the following is just a summary.

Todd and Jim along with their girlfriends Nancy and Val, wanted to make a roadtrip. But not just any roadtrip, but a magnificent one.

Central and South America, yeah they agreed, that is it.

So for funding they went to their respective parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles… anybody that would give money.

As Todd’s father put it: “Of course son, we will help finance your dream, I can understand what dreams are about since I never had the chance in order to work my tail off to get you through university. Go with my blessings.”

And the other three adventurers received the same response from their loved ones. “We will support you, come hell or high water.”

So off the quartet went. They had a great time hiking, swimming in tropical waters, and even getting high

“Man, Jim, that stuff is better than Acapulco Gold.”

“Yeah dude, let’s see what South America has to offer,” replies Todd.

So the roadtrip continues, but by the time Peru is reached, funds are running low, and they only have enough for some snort.

“Let’s fill the tank and look for the cheap stuff,” Val bleats in.

But they soon realize that they do not even have enough to buy a couple of beers between them.

Then Nancy comes up with a brilliant idea. “What about the internet, maybe we can get people to support our roadtrip if we tell them what an adventure we are having.”

The other three nod in approval.

However, the quartet did not count on the vagaries of roadtrips, even with their travels so far behind them. And they then found themselves knee-deep in llama manure.

They forgot about a golden rule that explorers and adventurers had learned over the years, much of the time by the hard way.

“Don’t mess with the natives.”

Alas, they did and rued the day for it.

But wait a minute they thought, there is money in our misfortune. We were stupid, but let’s be smart.

And they thought of Quatermain and H. Rider Haggard, Indiana Jones, Kipling (well the quartet were university graduates, they knew Kipling), and all the other adventure stories that made money.

“Why not,” said Todd. “Let’s make up our own adventure story, I mean, we have been through a lot.”

The others concurred.

But how to make such a story believable in an age where there are so many unbelievable stories being told in print and screen.

The four thought long and hard. And bingo. Of course. The internet.

“Andy Warhol, here we come.”


Now Taco Standers, I never had the story published, not because it was plausible or implausible, I just did not think there was a market for it.

Boy does it appear that I was wrong.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Patrick - I think you're right, Sangay Park is probably a jaguar preserve, it's been a while since I thought about it.

I'm definitely motivated to send these gringos a ton of money so they can continue their adventures. Can't think of a more worthy cause.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
But did Tommy, Beth et al go on the Today Show?

Sort of. I think it was 60 minutes.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
t*r

I could easily write a friend and ask them to set up a fund-raising account for me, or ask relatives to set up a PayPal account.

Such requests, to make their story all the more valid, are just a phone call or email click away. Am I being cynical? Probably.

But I would rather be cynical than naive. Especially if somebody is asking me for money on a (perhaps) fatuous basis.

To hell I am going to send money that I do not have to these people. If their story is true (and I truly wonder), they got themselves in this mess, not I.

If I had money there are better causes. For example, the only gift I could afford for Jen this Christmas was a €40 contribution to the WWF for snow leopards. I framed the certificate because that is all I could give her for Christmas.

Up until November, Jennie and I were contributing a total of €220/month to eight charities/causes over the past five years (Concern, VSO, Barnados, Lifeboats (RNLI), Dublin-Wicklow Mountain Recuse, Alzheimer's Ireland, Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Animals). My oldest brother Casey who knows my financial situation, said: "Stop it, charity begins at home."

Think about it, we have given over the past five years over €13,000 to good causes, because at the time we could afford it, not that we are or were rich, by any means. But Jen and I believe in good causes, and these three arseholes (in my opinion) are soliciting money for their own good.

They across across as selfish idiots who either were not intelligent to read the situation or are chancing it with other people's money. Confidence trick comes to mind.

To be honest, even if these three person's story is true, there are far better things I can contribute to (like my rent and bills) than to some middle-class adventurers who got themselves in a jam.

I do not weep for them. I weep for the undernourished and abused children in the world.

These three apparently have other family/friends that can help them. Why should we? IMO t*r, contribute to the starving children in the world, some who do not have drinking water.

And if it is true (and I do not know) that the State department will pick up some of the costs of these three people, then think about the tax dollars these three costs the US. IMO they are as bad as the greedy politicians in our country.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
let's wait for time to shake down more details before we jump into judgement.

My gut instinct is...

You are correct, let's wait for the facts to come out, if indeed they will.

But it is still a matter of some middle-class buffoons messing up in one way or another, be it their fault or others, one has to think they could have handled it better. Perhaps I am wrong. I have never been to Peru. I have never been in the situation they allege to.

I have very little sympathy for them, regardless of the 'facts'.

Like I wrote earlier, there are two side to every story. We have only been hearing one side.


EDIT

I still think that the three will benefit in the long run from their story. It is the kind of story that Americans love to hear, how fellow Yanks are mis-treated or ill-treated in another country. It will sell, I'll bet my house on that. Wait a minute, I don't own a house. Still...


... stay tuned, the networks and Fox will lap it up.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Even if the story is 100% true, I'm not gonna send 'em money. If they are for real, they certainly have the resources to replace all their goodies -- lord knows I'd like a spendy digital camera and an Iphone, but I can't afford them.

If they ARE for real, I doubt they'd be spamming for dollars on the internet. I'm maybe 60K in debt with medical bills. It would never occur to me to try to get total strangers to pay 'em.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
bvb ^^^

+1
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Peru has never been a boring place. Its history reads like a non stop head stomping termination movie where those who could be the most brutal and do it first survived to the present day.

And that dropping rocks thing on your enemy is like apple pie and baseball.

Out in rural bumf*ck Peru the only reason for strangers to be in your little valley at night is theft of your potato crop and guinea pigs.



landcruiserbob

Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Sad but there 's always a trigger ...

They could have parked on top of el presidente's ancestors.

The whistles tell me that they were victims of something in the past...

That was an epic for sure.

Aloha and be well

Rg
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
let's wait for time to shake down more details before we jump into judgement.


Woah woah woah there t*r, that is NOT how we roll around here.

"Facts are, silly things"
~Ronald Reagan

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
What $19,000 so far?

There's a sucker born every minute.

Werner, I never really do like your "Americans are stupid" sayings, because I am a very proud American with a family dating back to 1640 in America. Even though I have lived abroad for years.

And while fools are easily parted with their money, I have to agree with you Werner, it seems that Americans will part with their money more stupidly than most nationalities.

And Patrick says: "I want you to know, that if you send me $10 I will ensure the Lord hears your prayer. Just $10 can send you on a righteous path."
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Is it logical to conclude that the more money donated the less likely the story is to be true?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Abrams, not sure.

But what I would guess and speculate is that the story is more designed to play on the heart strings of Americans and get them to contribute to these people's adventures.

I have to repeat (ad nauseam) something doesn't seem right with this story.

If indeed it is a case of 'fraud', of misleading people to contribute money, and the State department deems it such, will they seek the prosecution of fraudsters, or will they try and cover up just to save American faces. And rush them home to the safety of America, and the Today Show.

Something makes me think there is something fishy here. Ooops, it could be the salmon I just ate.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
I only skimmed the story but somewhere in there it says that collectively these three recieved 100's of stitches to their heads. Anyone who has ever seen this kind of carnage knows that their heads are shaved and they must look like Frankensteins. Photos would go a long way to generating some bonafide sympathy.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Actually it says combined that they received around 100 stitches total...
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Still. As always, totally invalid without pics!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Whether true or not this attack should be the format for the next facelift....RJ
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Its all very sad. Maybe they were mistakenly perceived as thieves. Maybe everyone involved was slightly drunk. Over enthusiastic Neighborhood Watch?

OT inside view of the culture
Peruvian Youtube? about preparing some Guinea Pigs for party guests in
a no nonsense manner. They lead very different lives than we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=inU2nrCWjYo&feature=endscreen



Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
People, fellow Supertopians, I hope I am not coming across in the wrong way.

If these three really did go through everything they said, then... but it seems there are gaps and if they have travelled that far, why were they not more savvy?

It just is, something strikes me peculiar about the whole story.

I have read all the comments, from people who have been to the region, which I have admitted I have not.

But I have been a journalist for some 40 years in five countries, albeit, "developed" countries. I'd like to think I have been a good, objective (subjective for column and op-ed pieces probably) journalist, but I do have a "shitometer" of my own.

Something does not ring right with this story, and again, I admit I could be wrong.

But what ifs... easy aren't they.

And where is Patrick Compton in all of this? Why has he not posted again besides his OP?

No I am afraid there is something more sinister here and I will ask my good friend Sherlock Holmes to investigate. Actually his great grandson, well, actually Conan Doyle's great grandson.

All joking aside, there could very well be a cover up of the alleged incidence... by the Peruvian authorities, by the State department, by...?

And I am not one to be a conspiracy freak, nor a skeptic, nor a cynic. But something is not sitting right with my intuition on this whole story.

People asking for money to continue their travels and pay for their goods, and knowing that a "good" story sells (maybe the three are not fools after all).

On reflection, even if I did have enough money to help these people with their health/medical expenses, I would not do it. I have experienced enough wide-boys in my life.

This story stinks.

And if these three are innocent and victims of an injustice, then...

...but if they are chancers, throw them in the pokey.

If I am coming across as judgmental or pre-judgmental (until the facts are out, if ever), and if I am wrong in what I surmise, I apologize.

But the gnawing feeling is still there.

Do some of you know what $19,000+ could do for some of the Taco Standers suffering from medical conditions. Help a lot.

To hell with these three, innocent or not, they put themselves in the situation. Several Supertopians who are in need did not put themselves in such a stupid situation. IMO these three middle-class turds...

... oh forget it. I think that those (most) posters on this thread either believe one angle or the other.

Black and white, but are there grey areas?

But the cheek of going online the next day after such an "incident", either by themselves or a surrogate, to ask for money, and writing a blog (oh yes, I wrote the blog because I was traumatized and need an outlet... and to beg for help) within hours of said "incident".

Wait a minute, if their computers and iWhatevers were stolen, what did she do, go down to the local internet shop or asks the cops if she could use their computer.

How did this person get her "story" out so fast, even in the age of the Net?

In and out of medical facilities? Excuse me nurse, can I use the computer? I have a blog to write.

Folks, things just do not add up.

Maybe it is me. Maybe I wish I could get people to donate towards my rent arrears that would keep Jennie in a safe environment and the landlord off of my back, and pay the outstanding bills. And yes, my internet access may be cut off any day now, though perhaps some of you may cheer that moment.

There are more Supertopians that far deserve our support than these three "adventurers".

But go ahead, contribute to these three (I can imagine it now, the new title "The Three Amigos, oops I mean "The Three Palca Victims".

Looking at their photos, they seem smug. I am not jealous (I am tired, but I took the job on to look after my partner) I just do not like chancers. Of any sort.
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Actually it says combined that they received around 100 stitches total...

This required more than 100 stitches, way more.
Credit: Denver Police Dept.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Has anyone started a paypal account for the maced peruvians?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Something for that gnawing feeling, Patrick :

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Jim, is that served with some sort of sauce? And a red wine (no wait a minute, alcohol is out).
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
if you google how to cook guinea pig find gobs of vids just that type of meat
most in spanish
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Did you notice everyone resisted until now, commenting on the interesting logic behind complaining about the harm caused to the locals from Coca leaf eradication ?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Good luck all in ascertaining what did happen.

I now quit this thread as Jennie is up and in need of her meds. And it is late.

As for the three, I couldn't care less about them, hard luck or bullshit story, at this point I do not care any longer.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
I do not doubt that these guys were involved in some kind of incident. Whether or no their story went down exactly as they claim I'm not sure. You have to remember that they were writing a daily blog so this would have been part of their routine. Jed's message says they bought a computer to update the blog, and get in contact with home.

Jed's message seems more accurate and makes a little more sense. Not to say it is verified either. Just because someone has claimed to have grabbed it from Facebook doesn't make it true. I would just like to read an independant report that has actually been fact checked.....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Okay, Jen is having problems so I cannot get to bed/sleep.

I started this on another thread but it is more appropriate here.

I know on the other thread that I would not contribute as I am going to bed, but my partner Jennie is having a rough night and the meds are not helping much. So here I am.

Jeez, two threads for money raising for the three Americans.

Let me get this right, and please correct me if I am wrong.

But, let's for now forget about the people in need outside of the US (meaning Africa, Asia etc). But let's look at the people in need in the US, and there are a lot of them.

No hold on, I will continue my thoughts on the other thread, because it sort of annoys me that some middle-class dumb Americans got themselves in a jam in Peru, and they are looking for money when a lot of people worse off than they are do not go begging online.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
A bus carrying the Argentine national soccer team was attacked with thrown bricks in Lima last year

That is business as usual in all S American countries: Futbol is war and
no truce will ever be signed, especially with Los Gauchos. Of course,
students of the game know that the Peruvians are still feeling guilty for
throwing the semi-final match of the '78 World Cup which allowed Argentina
into the Final.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
El Comercio, Cusco’s office on foreign trade and tourism confirmed the incident, based on reports from the Ocongate police station, but said no formal complaint has been placed.

Jennie, so if it is the case the incident has been confirmed, does that mean it gives a bye to the three involved. We do not know the full details, but by your inference of "quoting" Comercio, you seem to think it gives some credence to one side of the story. Am I correct in understanding your take on this? Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

So it appears that an incident did take place. But we still have to hear the other side of the story. And as far as I can tell, Comerico is more for encouraging tourism than standing up for the indigenous population, so where's the spin?

I had a bad time in the Dominican Republic years ago. I did nothing wrong, but the local tourism board rep sided, wrongly, with the locals while the national tourism rep sided with me, the tourist, which is why I was released, rightfully. Government tourism agencies will tend to side with the foreigner who has money to spend or a big government to back them.

Now my goal is to calm Jennie down and get her back to sleep, and hope for a peaceful night.

But just to recap, this story of the three just does not play for me, not in its entirely at least.

And I still say they will benefit from the publicity and book/film deals. Well played you three. But I will not be buying your books or watching your "ordeal" on the little or big screen.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Of course,
students of the game know that the Peruvians are still feeling guilty for
throwing the semi-final match of the '78 World Cup which allowed Argentina
into the Final.

Reilly, ain't that truth. A final I watched and which the Dutch were the better team, but you know, home field advantage.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Is guinea pig kosher?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
I'm not declaring credence to either side, Patrick. Some posts suggest nothing happened and the event was a wholesale hoax...the El Comercio statement seems to affirm a dispute and fracas did occur.

I admit being partial to the Teton climbing community... but having not been present at the clash and not being an authority on Peruvian affairs, I'm not in a position to make iron pronouncements about the affair.

The confirmed random beatings and sniper shooting at foreign adventurers in Peru... and mobs throwing bricks through bus windows of foreign soccer teams posit sentiments a mite stronger than envy and rivalry. Hopefully, these represent attitudes of the few rather than the many...



Best wishes for you and Jennie's happiness and good circumstance.
Chippychopperone

Social climber
SLC, UT
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
This is a good reason to release some marines.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
This money fiasco is pretty funny. It's a bunch of wealthy friends and family helping their own - and you get to watch.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Why not just leave the Peruvians alone for fuk sakes? Ain't your country, ain't your home, ain't your land, certainly ain't your back yard campground... so fuk off and leave them be!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
+1 ... the me-christ has spoken.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Why not just leave the Peruvians alone for fuk sakes? Ain't your country, ain't your home, ain't your land, certainly ain't your back yard campground... so fuk off and leave them be!

Exactly... if we have all our people back, then leave 'em alone.
OR

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Been folowing this from early on at another site. It has been a lightning rod for criticism. The $$$ thing is funny.....they will have more now then before they started. Hope they are safe though.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
I think this story checks out. Three outdoorsy types from America think South America is an extension of BLM land and pack their truck like they would for the creek, minus the climbing gear, and go for a drive. Down in Peru they drive into cartel country with a history of animosity towards Americans, set up camp on someone's field, the locals come asking questions, saw some shiny gear, some bad decisions were made and a horrifying tale results. Traumatized from the experience the three make some further bad decisions in telling their tale and now everyone comes out of the woodwork to:

a: beat their chest about their own third world experiences
b: chastise them for flaunting their money
c: call a conspiracy because weird acts of violence should always be predictable and follow a certain pattern.
d: once in a while say something interesting and offer condolences.

Reading their blog, yes they do come across as naive and mildly entitled but so what.

Three months ago a very good friend of mine and one of the most kind hearted genuine people I have ever met, waited his turn (out of five people, four women) to be beaten, stabbed to death, and set on fire in a Denver bar by three young men looking for money to feed their families. I miss him a lot and cannot get over the horror of his last night on earth and how he didn't deserve this in any way. I saw many of the same arguments about racial and class differences presented here in this thread on the various news sites. But thing was Ross was an incredible human being who didn't deserve to die. I see alot of similarities in these two cases in very different countries. This sort of violence is never justified, ever, those who advocate it or suggest that this is in any way justified are pathetic.

-Patrick
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
I don't think anyone ever said that kind of violence was justified.
jstan

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
My brother went to Peru some thirty years ago. He could not say enough good things about the people. I wonder what it must be like now for those people, to live in a state where mobs are not unknown. They don't have anywhere else to go.

I think we in the US do not appreciate that with which we are dealing when people in the US adopt a mob mentality. They are not thinking for themselves.

It goes on here.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
A little perspective:

Peru is the world's No. 2 producer of copper behind Chile and mining has been central to its recent economic boom, accounting for more than 60 percent of export income. But the environmental costs have had a negative social impact.

Fearing water supplies could be diminished or contaminated, residents of the bordering state of Cajamarca continue to resist a $5 billion gold mining project that would be Peru's largest. The dispute has triggered violence that killed five civilians last month and prompted Peru's government to impose a state of emergency that suspended civil liberties in three provinces. That emergency was extended Friday for another 30 days.


Cerro de Pasco



Anti-mine-owners




Antamina



In 2011, Antamina earned US$ 3,384.3 million making them the most profitable mining operation in Peru.

wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
After seeing those stitches, I think we should set up a Paypal account for Hank.

Is that pic. La Arroya?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
deserves re-posting as it is racist and wrong from every angle - anybody want to rip this apart?

Here you go:

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=4923

Oddly, and purely coincidently, it seems I prefer to avoid countries combining low IQ and high T.

Totally f'n racist...
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
After reading the facebook entries, it is apparent that the writer is almost illiterate

Which is why I question if it really came from this guy. His blog posts sound a lot different.
Gilroy

Social climber
Boulderado
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
You're a hoot, JLP. Peru isn't even listed under the penis size tables.

John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
the blogs are well written thanks to the very nice girl friend that is traveling with him..

you can prove this? Or you know something?

I'm just curious because you seem very certain. I would like to know how you know this.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:03am PT
What seems a bit odd to me about this whole thing is the solicitation to the general public for donations from the three victims. What ever happened to calling up your family and close friends and asking for them to loan you some money, etc. to help you get through this difficult time? Why is there a need to make a plea to the general public?

Also, besides being able to help you out financially, would you be looking to your family and friends for emotional support?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:28am PT
As I understand it the original solicitation for money was done by either friends or family in an effort to help, not by the victims. The original report of what happened was written by one of the victims as a filing for the police, thus the list of items presumably stolen. Not sure if that list is still there in the report but apparently it has been saved here on the eternal Taco.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:36am PT
If you want to set up to get thumped by indigenous hard asses, why drive so far ?

There's lots of opportunity locally in the US and Canada to say the wrong thing on the wrong patch of land...
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:38am PT

After seeing those stitches, I think we should set up a Paypal account for Hank.

Hank seems fine... But after reading Patrick Sawyer's posts i think he could really use some help.... It seems like if anyone needs it, it's him.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:54am PT

Well, the letter is 100 percent real - who would take the time to fake that with those details? And why? It was a letter to his friends passed around Jackson Hole and posted on the Jackson Hole website.
So he is obviously an idiot and didn't write the blog posts.

I haven't really looked that close, but so much sh#t has been faked on the internet for every imaginable reason.

These people may be d#@&%e's. I don't know. I wouldn't have sent them any money based on the first letter. But I'm also not going to rush to judgment. I use to do that, but have had enough experiences where people rushed to judge me that I'm not willing to do it anymore.

In this day of instant and very public communication I believe it is so much easier for things to get so messed up very very quickly.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:20am PT
Well, if the victims didn't ask for the money, based on their blog posts, they are certainly spending it. Again, why is there a need to ask the public for donations? Why can't their friends and family be the ones to help out?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:27am PT
bhilden, that is it in a nutshell. Regardless of who,what,where, they got jammed up old style. Why is every situation today an internet charity event opportunity especially if you aren't poor?

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:51am PT
an ignorant, selfish bitch

Really?? No, Really? Please, let me get down on one knee and bow to oh Riley who obviously knows everything about this situation even though he's only read as much on the internet.

Lighten up, dude. You throw a whole shitload of negative, armchair conjecture onto a situation you know almost nothing about. Why so hateful? Why not chill and wait to see what more info comes out before making unfounded conclusions?

an ignorant, selfish bitch
?? Seriously. WTF?
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:29am PT
No one anywhere deserves to get waylaid just because they took a wrong turn and ended up surrounded by a bunch of illiterate, poor, pseudo-nationalistic in the moment red necks looking for an easy mark.

For the record one’s genetic heritage, socioeconomic status, or perceived injustice to one’s nationalistic bent or imaginary cultural heritage doesn’t excuse sh#tty behavior to people who are just trying to get down the road.

Yeah I get it; random violence and injustice happens the world over every hour, every minute and probably every second of the day in this mean old world. Still I would let someone kick my teeth and humiliate my wife and sister for $100,000. I doubt there’s a price I’d take for that kind of humble of pie.

For the record, with my first look at this story; I felt schadenfreude: An attractive young couple and their attractive sister(in-law) were living the dream in naďve bliss and the world came and took it away from them: Boo fuking hoo; babes in wilderness; it’s the third world baby and the wolves are at the fuking door. Thinking about that smugness that I had at someone’s misfortune; I worry about me, because it sprang from a defiled imagination - that they are young, good-looking, and living a dream while I’m old, not good looking, and beating the same old ground. Envy isn’t a good way to live, but enough about me and on to the TacoTards......

The race baiting on the thread by the wonder bread boys is pathetic; good to see the gringo term busted out in case of emergency. The game of moral equivalence gets a quick work out with some vague imagining about lost travelers of color getting riled by a mob of southern white red necks in rural Alabama. Maybe fifty years ago; but not today; not now. Then comes the cry to the injustice that is Laos; a war that ended in 1975; before these people who were mugged were even born.

Next up is the boogie man that is the USA-Illuminati-CIA war on drugs. Whatever. Cocaine is about a millimeter more respectable than methamphetamine and there both a complete waste of time and ruins people’s lives. Next up is the evil that is American and Anglo transnational mining companies that follows in the 500 year of traditions of Spain and Portugal; but with a better local cut – same as it ever was.

Not to be forgotten is a old icon who over the course of five years on this site I’ve seen write on the Taco about health and car hours of darkness and seen friends respond in that time of need; now begrudge and questioning the young and bearers of good skin getting some rapid coin on the internet.

My bottom line in this whole deal is my world view and that is that modernity is everywhere and its herald is television. Whatever anyone’s imagined cultural equivalence scale is about skin tones and imaginary heritages; these 3 Americans didn’t throw the first stone. The sh#tty behavior is with the illiterate modern village mob and that should be pointed out.

Undoubtedly the bear spray didn’t help, but really if someone is throwing fuking rocks at you, what are ya going to do? When the sh#t turn south it appears that you are all fuking brilliant? Should’ve, would’ve, and could’ve. The blogging thing and social media I don’t understand. I do know that I would rather go through life without that humiliation of seeing my wife and sister seeing me getting the sh#t kicked out of me, but that may be my particular singular male point of view.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:46am PT
Who of those commenting were there?
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:49am PT
Mercy Riley.. what is up? Lately you don't like anything anyone has posted.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:03am PT
I actually feel bad for the villagers having to deal with these idiots - you can bet it has been traumatic for them also.
How so? Way laying and throwing rocks at people is how you deal with people you deem idiots? God help me you called me moron; I’m doomed.

But you are hating on people cause you can't afford a few bucks for a vacation?

You don’t know me dude. I was trying to hold a mirror up but it didn’t work. I got go.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:03am PT
There are a lot of idiots around the world Riley.. not just Americans. If you focus on the idiots, then you will drive yourself nuts. You are better then that.

I have had this funny feeling that the sister precipitated this event. The couple didn't have any problems in 9 months of travel and then the sister arrives and this happens. I wonder if the guy changed his behavior because of some old issue with the sis. Some sort of karma. Just my two cents based my own intuitive hit.

John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:07am PT
Everything you just posted is just opinion of people who weren't even there.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:22am PT
The amount of money raised kind of surprised me, but that is the power of the internet. There are a lot of good causes that don't get enough money. The world is a strange mixed up place.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:53am PT
Sending money to these people seems a Laosy idea to me, at least until considerably more information is available.

Anders, even if they were attacked, unprovoked, they are still looking for money to continue their travels, instead of making a beeline to the States, as I understand it.

There are number of Supertopians, especially those with medical bills, that could use funds far more than these three people.

Jennie, I understand where you are coming from. And thanks for the best wishes for ‘my’ Jennie.

This money fiasco is pretty funny. It's a bunch of wealthy friends and family helping their own - and you get to watch.

JLP, so true.

Pat, I think you have nailed it. And condolences to you and Ross’s family and friends, sounds horrific.

zBrown, that’s a good perspective.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:39am PT
I hope this is my last comment on this thread.

I do not know what really happened in Peru, but dang it, I sure would like another view besides that of the three travellers. I would like to hear the other side of the story, if there is one.

Regardless, I firmly believe, having been a student and practitioner of the media for over 40+ years, that these three will benefit in the long run (in addition to the donations they have received so far), in the form of books/TV/film.

Time will tell, but stories like theirs will always attract readers/viewers. And they will probably capitalize on that and enhance their bank accounts. Anybody want to take any bets on that?

Cheers, best wishes and safe climbing.

Patrick

MisterE

Social climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Wow, Riley. I usually enjoy your banter, but you are taking this way too personally. Sorry, my friend - you are being a real jerk here.

I won't even bother with your copy-cat thread, apparently made as a FU to this thread.

Hope we can climb again soon - you should get out TODAY, and release some of your angst.

Erik
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:56am PT
where is Krakauer when you need him. This story just smells of a best seller. ha

by the way, I'm still neutral as to what went down, and who is at fault. Not enough info at this point. But I sure hope at least some of the funds go to building a medical clinic or something in a Peruvian Village.

A friend of mine did a "sponsor me by the mile" type bike ride from Canada to Guatemala, and raised something like $15,000, which she used to build a new school in an impoverished village. Construction is cheap down there.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:04am PT
before you are quick to judge, or dismiss an entire country because of one horrific incident, please consider another perspective: http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:15am PT
So they found a way to squeeze some pennies out of some gullible people. So what, nuthin new about that. Certainly not a big enough issue to get my panties in a bunch over.

If people want to complain about misspent money there are much bigger fish to fry than 3 tourists in South America.


I'm off to vacation in Northern Mali. Anybody want to contribute to my travel fund?
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:21am PT
When I was in Amazon some azzholes raped women in one of the villages.

The villagers caught them tied them up and hung them upside down into the river and the piranha ate them alive.

When I was in Africa some azzholes did something in one of the villages and they got killed.

Don't fuk with people in the third world.

Bridwell told Schultz he wanted a skull from one of the burial sites in this village we were in Africa.

Schultz climbs up there and grabs a skull and yells to Bridwell "How about this one?".

The whole village started to get really agitated and we told Schultz to put that thing back and get fuk out of there.

We told those guys we're leaving because you're going get us all killed you stupid sh!t.

He put it back and we booked it outa there.

Fuking stupid ......


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Riley, you don't know what really happened. None of us do. For myself, I'd say I'm close to 99.7 percent certain these guys got attacked. .0001% sure (unsure) of the reason. I'm sure that there was a reason in there someplace, just that you and I, and everyone else for now, do not know what it was. It could be that providing the documents and explaining with a smile who they were might have avoided the misunderstanding that they encountered.

That they have collected $20,000 rubs the wrong way. Last time I got my ass whooped (by a large group of men), I went unconscious and when I finally came to, I had forgotten the English language, including my name and everything I was and thought that I knew....I found it quite interesting. No one gave me a nickel, and I eventually figured it out and learned language and how to speak again. Turned out I'd done some damage to them as well, and luckily avoided a long prison term by the hair of my chin.

Sh#t happens dude. It did here.

Riley W. said:
"John - you know what it was at first?
The village wanting to kill them - children, woman?
I mean WTF - it's not the 16 century anymore.
Children and woman are not going to want to kill people for no reason - it's just ridiculous - of course if a person has never been in many of these villages they are going to believe anything - "Dragons be there"
The entire story played on fear and xenophobia and ignorance of the unknown. Best of all - it was written from the perspective of an ignorant, selfish bitch, who had been in the country for a few days, and was to stupid to know that what she was writing in her biased tale told us that she had not clue - drinking beers, not showing ID?
These are human beings who live in a community!!You are in their community! You need to understand the local customs, local law enforcement - not start running people down.
How ignorant do you think these villagers are? lol
They have no right to control traffic through their town and ask questions?
What do you think? It's a lawless land of ignorant savages?

They had absolutely no clue and they should consider themselves very very lucky they are not dead. If it would have been even close to an evil village they would be dead - they are incredibly lucky.

What is a believable story? that they were stopped by a group of men, bandits, thieves, and robbed and raped, etc
This happens just south of the border here all the time - everyday - a few months ago they stopped a bus headed to Veracruz and shot a handicapped girl and her family becuase she was not answering questions properly.
We don't go to Mexico anymore - but if you do you have to have your wits about you - have a few separate dollars on the side to pay people off - it's part of the culture.

I would be surprised if these people are not still involved in some kind of problems with the law - they signed a piece of paper with the local government that stated they were drinking and driving and crashed their car - that is exactly what they were doing - look at it from your perspective - what would have occurred in the exact same situation in Yosemite or a little town in Mississippi or the corner of a street in New York, City.
What allowed you to see it differently is your disrespect and lack of knowledge of these peoples laws, customs and ability to Police their own town!!

That is why this thread is so interesting - it does not expose the ignorance of Natives of Peru it exposes the ignorance of the natives of America."

There was a reason. We don't know what it was. I don't see them as being disrespectful either....there was clearly a miscommunication though.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:52am PT
DID PEOPLE GET THEIR MONEY BACK? YESTERDAY THERE WAS $19370. IN THE FUND AND TODAY I SEE:

Current Amount:
$4,720.90

Or did the fund drop cause they pulled some money out? Bizarre.

see for yourself:
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:56am PT
news of Peru redux

Joran van der Sloot sentenced to 28 years for murder of Peruvian woman

The victim's father, Ricardo Flores, complained after the verdict that Van der Sloot was enjoying favorable conditions in a Lima prison, where he has been living apart from the general population and foreigners with money can buy superior treatment.

"A jail isn't a 5-star hotel," Ricardo Flores told reporters. "Let's hope the authorities take that into account and not just in our case."

"Since the first day we've been complaining about the excessive privileges" that Van der Sloot allegedly enjoyed in jail, he said.


Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Photos would go a long way to generating some bonafide sympathy.

No doubt!

You would think that they would be sharing photos to elicit sympathy.

Let us see the broken teeth and the truth.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Thanks BigMike, but we will get by, hopefully. As I have written before, there are other Supertopians in far more need than Jennie and I.

Slayton, I believe somebody already posted that and my (cynical?) reply was that it wouldn’t take much for one of the travelers to ask a friend/family to set up those accounts, sort of in a surrogate way.

Bhilden and Jim Brennan, I agree.


Who of those commenting were there?

Todd, that is a good point. However, these people are asking for money from the public, so questions of the bona fides need to be asked.

And Todd, I wasn’t there for Pearl Harbor or the Holocaust, but that does not mean I cannot comment on such events. I just think something smells fishy with the incident. And of course, I could be wrong. But apparently, I am not alone in thinking this, not only on this forum but several other forums and news articles.

John M, that just may be.
this just in

climber
north fork
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
You can all apologize to me now for attacking me - My judgement was dead on as usual..
You are your biggest fan.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Here is an account in a Peruvian newspaper of the incident,

http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate


"Al parecer, los turistas ingresaron a la comunidad, no se identificaron y hubo problemas con el idioma. Los campesinos los habrían confundido con abigeos."

It appears the tourists entered the community, didn't identify themselves and there were problems with the language. The villagers had confused them with abiegos.

Does anyone know what abiegos means? I think it is a slang term specific to Peru denoting a group of people? I have never been to Peru.

Many of the comments below the article reflect what has been said here, some are surprised, some think the story is unbelievable, and some say this region is known for violence.

Looking for more articles...

-Patrick

abiegos are possibly tourists from Spain? Bizzare.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:09pm PT

One interesting comment by a Peruvian:

"Yo y mis amistades, turistas de Estados Unidos, fuimos agredidos cuando tomamos un bus de Cusco a Puno. Habia una huelga de campesinos los que tiraron rocas al bus donde ibamos e incendiaron el puente por donde debiamos cruzar. En el bus yo era el unico Peruano. Que pena que esto no se sancione."

My friends and I, tourists from the US, were assaulted when we took a bus from Cusco (sameish region?) to Puno. There was a group of villagers who threw rocks at the bus we were in and burned the bridge we were going to cross. I was the only Peruvian on the bus. What a shame this hasn't been dealt with.

Sounds eerily similar.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Does anyone know what abiegos means? I think it is a slang term specific to Peru denoting a group of people? I have never been to Peru.

Pat, abigeo, is not a slang word. It is a Spanish word meaning "cattle rustler". Please see this article: http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Wise words from ni chicha ni limona's blog post :

3. The history of white men rolling up in the Andes. This element of the incident is perhaps the most complex and the most difficult to summarize in a brief article, but let's just say there are 500 years of history of white dudes coming to town, taking over, and submitting people with violence and oppression to a slew of undesirable foreign conditions. Conquest, forced conversion, forced labor, expropriation of communal lands, education reform, the confusion of the internal war in which mostly Quechua-speaking Peruvians were caught between the Peruvian military and the Shining Path, forced sterilizations, multinational mining companies, and yes, even encroaching tourism... Who knows what Pallca had dealt with recently. I believe I have already emphasized that their stories probably do not usually make the news.

The Wolfroms don't seem to have been aware of any of these cultural dynamics; they were carefree American tourists living their dream of seeing the world in the United States's playground south of the border. (The couple had been travelling throughout Latin America for nine months). What happend to them was horrific, violent, and inexcusable. They did not deserve it. But instead of letting this incident exacerbate cultural misunderstandings by dismissing the Andean villagers as ignorant murderers, let this be a lesson that cultural misunderstandings can have dire consequences. Let this remind us--and I mean us, fellow Americans--that the world does not belong to us and as we frolic about the globe crossing things off our bucket lists, we affect the spaces we enter.

What really happened in Ocongate? We will probably never hear the other side of the story. We can only speculate but cannot know what drove an entire village to brutally attack three foreigners, but we can consider the violence that we are committing if we choose a side, if we favor the published story over the unpublished ones. My heart goes out to both sides: to the unassuming tourists who got themselves into one hell of a cultural misunderstanding and to the Andeans on the other side of that misunderstanding who felt the need to resort to violence to defend themselves.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
I'm just a little curious. Do these people who were hurt - who incidentally certainly have my sympathy - have any family or other resources for a few bucks to get them home? I mean isn't that all they need is a flight home to pull their sh#t together?

When Rob Rohn busted his back in Peru he need a pretty expensive flight first out of the mountains then another one home to Canada. All funding came from friends, family and his employer CMH.

I mean, if I got badly mangled and lost everything I own I'd just want to go home to my Momma.


So............?
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Do these people who were hurt - who incidentally certainly have my sympathy - have any family or other resources for a few bucks to get them home? I mean isn't that all they need is a flight home to pull their sh#t together?

they have raised over $20,000 since the incident.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
this incident stinks to high heaven,, like a skunk in the basement.

they have over 20K to do what with? Finish their vacation??
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
They listed over $10,000 in damages on their blog. They also alluded to not knowing what medical expenses would be and hotel costs during treatment. The donations are continuing to pour in. Here is the donation site: https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed

Yesterday, it was at nearly $20,000, so I believe there has been a withdrawal since then.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
What bothers me about all this is that the victims have not in any way, at least not as far as I've read both here and elsewhere, taken much responsibility for their own part in escalating this situation. The refusal to ID themselves is a glaring example. They don't seem to see anything wrong with this.

I don't care what their intentions were. People need to take responsibility for the actual consequences of their own actions, intended or not.

They're lucky to be alive. IMO
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
If you were in a third world country and suffered such an incident, would you want to return to the US ASAP?? If it was such a serious event? Can they not pay their medical expenses incurred there from any where else in the world?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
They listed over $10,000 in damages on their blog


So what? I've incurred a hell of a lot more loss than that before and I never ever thought to ask someone to come and bail me out.


Why don't they just eat their loss and carry on? Are you serious? They have made 30k on this deal?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).
sempervirens

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
There is not enough info to make the conclusions Riley jumps to. Why make all those assumptions just to back up your judgement? What makes a person need to make that judgement of others?

At this point, we have more information about Riley. IMO, we have enough info to judge Riley, and it's not looking good.

People are damning those three for drinking beer and "out of bounds" camping in a foreign land and having expensive Patagonia gear. How can we know how selfish, privileged, ignorant or belligerent they were?


pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made. I can't imagine they often have tourists from the US stopping in to camp on their land.

I have never been to South America and I can't say that I know much about the history of the region although I did date a Peruvian girl here in the US and I remember her explaining some of the problems around Cuzco. To be honest I imagined the situation probably being almost exactly what you described in your post and I have been trying to find more information on the history of the region to see if this is true.

Reading the blog posts and looking at the pictures of these two you can see quite a bit of naivety and ignorance. For example there are several photos on the blog of locals in Colombia staring angrily at the camera, kind of ironic.

It is sad this incident has stirred the racist pot in Peru, I can see that in many of the comments below the article I posted.

My ultimate thoughts on the matter though will always be that these three didn't deserve any of this, end of story. There are always people looking to blame the victims (I am talking about some of the posters on this forum and others, not the blogger mentioned above) similar to how the villagers living in this area were probably blamed in the past for their plight. Blaming these three for being beaten almost to death is the same thing and shows the same lack of empathy so pervasive in the world today.

-Patrick
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).

The word gumption comes to mind.

You really have to hand it to these guys!
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
I sure hope they are spending that money on rebuilding their bodies rather than rebuilding their racks and Ipod files.

Maybe a little donation to some heinously oppressed cultures in Peru might go a long way too.



edit: People make mistakes and I really don't think they should be damned for it at all. All this raising of money really seems off the mark however. If they were stuck in some sh#t barrio in Lima with no resources to get home I can understand a call for help but..... to replace gear or a lousy truck? Just walk away from it, get home and fix your face properly, lick your wounds and start making your own money again.

I think they have some explaining to do. Sympathies are now held in suspension.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
You know the Nigerians are following this closely.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
So what?

I'm not trying to justify anything, just giving the background info. We still have only one side of the story here, and that is clearly not enough.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
They may have been totally innocent victims for all I care.

What gets me is that they are not necessarily soliciting contributions, but accepting them.

Even if a third party raised money from strangers to help me out in a time of need, I wouldn't accept those funds.

But, that's just how I roll. I'm hard as f*#k. Sh#t goes wrong? Well, I just recalibrate my plans.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-fool-and-his-money-are-soon-parted.html
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
You know the Nigerians are following this closely.


My kid is having a hard time finding a job. I'm half tempted to point this opportunity out to him.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
One way ticket to Nigeria with an iPhone?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
The history of white men rolling up in the Andes. This element of the incident is perhaps the most complex and the most difficult to summarize in a brief article, but let's just say there are 500 years of history of white dudes coming to town, taking over, and submitting people with violence and oppression to a slew of undesirable foreign conditions. Conquest, forced conversion, forced labor, expropriation of communal lands, education reform, the confusion of the internal war in which mostly Quechua-speaking Peruvians were caught between the Peruvian military and the Shining Path, forced sterilizations, multinational mining companies, and yes, even encroaching tourism...

Yes but in this case, "white men" did not roll up anywhere. There was one guy and two women.
I think there's a little cultural naivety in thinking that the villagers actually thought that a group of 1 gringo and 2 (very non-threatening looking) gringas were banditos. Seems far more likely that they looked like prey. Which they were.

None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

Edit,
I'm also in the group that thinks this is interesting not just in itself, but also to gauge reactions to it. Consider the following:
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made
That so far doesn't make sense to me, that what can you say. Remember a group of 2 gringos and 1 gringa were just hanging out, planning to camp (with or without permission, who knows), drinking 2/3 beer each. Makes zero sense to me.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Thanks BigMike, but we will get by, hopefully. As I have written before, there are other Supertopians in far more need than Jennie and I.

Let us know Pat. The Taco seems to take care of its own. I haven't always been in a position to contribute, but a this time I could spare a couple to help a brother out. You are worthy sir.

as to the money they pulled it at 15,000ish and re-started it.

*** UPDATE 1/4/13 12pm: This fund has been reopened for additional donations. Jenny, Jed and Meghan will receive the initial transfer of funds today. Thank you for your support. Please feel free to share this link to others.

There is a pattern here. They set up a paypal account for friends and family to contribute before they left. They managed to convince a camper company that they would provide enough exposure with their blog that they gave them a 15,000$ unit for free....

So naturally when they post about their horrible misfortune their friends set up a fund for them and it just happens to go viral... The power of the written word eh?

The Peruvian report still refers back to their story.. The only "independent" report we have is the one Riley posted and that's not confirmed as far as I'm concerned until I see the original source, not a repost on some comments section..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Doesnt matter what really happened. What IS happening now is some very clever begging imho. They are not asking for $$ to quickly return home and they have already received money enough to cover that. Tell me they need an IPAD to return home...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
So naturally when they post about their horrible misfortune their friends set up a fund for them and it just happens to go viral... The power of the written word eh?

There is a perfectly good forum for this and its called EMAIL. maybe even a PHONE CALL might be in order. If you blog you go public. If you solicite money from the public you should probably have a charitable society status to start with and be reportable to your taxation authority.

If you solicit funds from the great blogosphere you better be 100% transparent in your intentions for the funds and 100% accountable for their use.

Its really that fugging simple.
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).

YES, +1001. PLEASE! I read the first version that didn't have the list of items and felt bad for them, then I read the extended version-SUPERLAME!!! ...and I can't believe they are actually getting money-so entitled, I now feel NO SYMPATHY. Especially with how they jacked up the prices of a lot of their items. I can see how these tribe people might be angered & frustrated at the division of wealth in the world.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Bruce I agree entirely.. It certainly seems excessive, self reliance is at the far end of these guys spectrum....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
If you solicit funds from the great blogosphere you better be 100% transparent in your intentions for the funds and 100% accountable for their use.

To all the people (and especially to the blowhards) who gave us shět for questioning the way the Bachar and John Long fundraisers were handled, I dare you to explain to us what exactly is wrong with this line of thinking. Double dare...
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
This thread really needs a summary of facts as it appears a number of people posting haven't followed the whole story and are simply issuing knee-jerk responses to other slanderous posts. My interest in this story was piqued, as were the interests of many on this forum, by the problematic account of events given by the alleged victims of the attack. It's impossible not to have ambivalent feelings about their experience (at least from their account) especially as it seems, at best, to be the result of a series of bad decisions coupled with cultural misunderstanding and bad luck; at worst it is either a fiction on their part or a case of an entire village coordinating an attack on relatively wealthy travelers.

Here's a factual review:

-An incident befell three American travelers near or in a village in the Cuzco region of Peru. From their account, it was a brazen attack and robbery by an entire village stemming from a refusal to produce official documents. The victims, however, may well have been attempting to camp on private land without permission and said refusal to identify themselves may have provoked suspicion. In any case, an incident escalated that involved rock throwing by villagers, the usage of pepper spray by the 'attackees', roadblocks and a vehicle accident.

-After the incident, a blog post by one of the victims includes an account of the incident as well as a much-criticized list of stolen or lost possessions along with their estimated values. Criticisms include inflation of said values as well as the moral implications of posting such a list. To her credit, one of the victims has stated that the posting was actually originally intended for an agency for whom such a list was a requirement; said list has been removed from her blog post.

-One of the victims friends has set up a much-criticized donations account in aid of the victims expenses incurred during the incident. Criticisms have mainly regarded the alleged avarice of the victims and their material concerns, despite the fact that they themselves didn't set up the account. Donations for an amount of approximately $20,000 or more have accumulated via 200 or more willing donors.

-On this forum, the predominant sentiment is that these are clueless Americans who, in responding improperly to a confrontation of some kind by Peruvian natives, were beaten and probably robbed. Many posts have indicated either implicitly or explicitly that the outcome was well deserved. Similarly, the subsequent financial aid and outreach to the travelers has been framed in several ways: as suspicious, in that the story is either fabricated or at least being used for monetary gain; as 'weak', in that the travelers can't roll with the punches and are somehow demeaned by seeking any sort of help with their situation; as avaricious, in that seeking any help beyond medical expenses and basic personal needs indicates greed.

My main issue with the responses here (I am aware that I've chosen to read posts and, now, to participate) is the obsession with the morality of issuing financial aid to the victims. Even though this incident could, in all honesty, have entirely been due to errors made by the travelers, I don't see how that proscribes them seeking or receiving aid. Remember that it was a friend of their family that opened the CrowdTilt account and that it was 200 or more willing donors who subsequently grew the fund. The internet is a powerful fundraising tool in part because it makes it so convenient to transfer funds (at a click of the mouse). $25k may well be just enough to cover their medical expenses and the replacement of some of their possessions. Further, people willing to donate to the fund doesn't necessarily call into question the intentions of the alleged victims.

The snap judgements made in this forum, while typical, fall short of the mark in this case (and in many others). Only the eventual responses and actions of the victims of the incident themselves, coupled with a better sense of the incident itself, if available, will allow for any real insight. I would think it unlikely to ever have enough information to make a real informed opinion about this event. However, for the sake of repetition: the fact that the victims have family and friends who are willing to fund their recovery (including of lost possessions) doesn't necessarily vilify the victims. It's easy to pontificate here about the questionable morality of material pursuit, the idiocy of American travelers, about the conspiracy theories of a fabricated incident wholly for the purpose of monetary gain.

In the end, there's a greater-than-zero percent chance of this being a fabrication. There's a chance that the travelers incited the whole event in a drunken frenzy. There's a chance that they are clueless travelers more concerned over their truck and their iPods than they are over their own safety. But I would say that the greatest chances lie in the incident having actually happened; that it was a misunderstanding whereby both parties share some blame for the outcome; that the money collected thereafter via the CrowdTilt fund was willingly donated and will be used to recoup costs for the victims, end of story; that in the end this is probably an isolated incident resulting from poor decision-making, 'first world' entitlement, cultural misunderstanding and bad luck. Travelers should obviously be aware of language barriers, cultural differences and regional safety issues and should know that they cannot simply go anywhere at any time without potential consequences.

I don't see what insight can be gained, however, by endlessly lambasting them on this forum without a complete understanding of the events which may never be forthcoming. You're not required to donate to their fund; neither were the willing donors. The morality of such a fund doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on society, the human race, or on whichever hyperbolic extension you choose. Our culture is one that's become more and more entitled, with less and less common sense. This could well be a result of such machinations, but who really can say with any surety?
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Well said Drewsky!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
^^^Pat, I do not agree.

Drewsky, eloquent post, so to speak, but you come across as knowing more than any of us. However, it appears to me that you are engaging in speculation, just like most of us on this thread. Perhaps I am wrong and you have a direct line to all of the facts, from both sides and the authorities.

You say "factual".
Here's a factual review

How can you say that? Do you have all the facts? We have only heard one side of the story. And don't think the use of the word "review" gives you a bye. Not in my book. Having been a journalist for some 40 years in five countries, on nationals and TV, I can smell when somebody is trying to present facts that they do not have.

Substantiate, substantiate, substantiate, as my editors use to tell me as I was starting out. And none of us, as far as I can see, on this thread, can substantiate anything but speculation (and our gut feelings, which is really not good enough for objectivity... subjectivity, yes), including you Drewsky. Unless of course, to iterate, you know "facts' that the rest of us do not.

As far as the setting up of fund-raising, how do any of us know that it was not done at the instigation of said travelers? We don't. So your long-winded post is no more, no better, no less, no right, or no wrong that what a lot have posted on this thread.

Unless you know something that none of us do. But to my thinking, you come across as more superior, more all-knowing and more clued-in than the rest of us. But beware and be careful, you may wind up with egg on your face, as many of us may.

Drewsky, maybe it is just me, but you seem to come across just as arrogant and judgmental as most of us concerning this matter. This is not a personal dig at you, as such.

I for one, unlike Pat, am not impressed any more by your post than some other posts on this thread. No offence, dude, unless you have some insight that others on this thread do not.

I would reckon that we all are speculating, but what I think strikes a sour note with many of us, is the, shall we say, crassness of the three looking for handouts.

As far as I am concerned, there are far better people in need that I can contribute money to (if I had it).
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

+1 blah³

Since I can't just outright agree with you, I will say that I am able to tell a giant troll from a complete fool. Obviously, look just look it up in the (electronic) literature.

Giant Troll (armed)





Compleat Fool:



pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Patrick-
I took it to mean factual as in a summation of the stated events of the case, not that each stated event was fact in and of itself. I liked it as such.

I believed this happened more or less as they told it, but recognize their story should not be taken as "fact" per se right now and there is a lot of missing information about how this all started. I accept the proposed back story as well of the villagers defending their land, and I feel sorry for them somewhat but I don't that is an excuse for what happened and the type of justice they elected to use.

I like Drewsky's assessment of the money situation. I would add that materialism goes both ways, both for supposedly wanting all of their stuff to be paid for, and for the villagers stealing from them, its a human trait not just confined to entitled Americans so basically everybody looses here when confronted with the materialistic litmus test.

I would not sit down at a bar with these three and make friends with them, but that is a separate issue from what happened. I had a similar reaction to reading their story that this couldn't be true. The first thing I asked was are there similar stories of this happening in this region? I have encountered several now.

I take issue with this idea that we are all a just bunch of xenophobes in the US for believing the story the way these three have told it, I think it is ridiculous to posit that those living in poverty in foreign lands are all peacful non-materialistic people incapable of organized violence. Violence exists now just as it did in the 16th century at home and abroad.

-Pat
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Thank you Drewsky. I don't know who you are, but this is almost exactly what I was thinking but just didn't have the ability to express. So thank you for putting my thoughts into words and expressing it so well.

John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Patrick-
I took it to mean factual as in a summation of the stated events of the case, not that each stated event was fact in and of itself. I liked it as such.

This is how I interpreted his post.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Lost in all this is the simple fact that public funds have been solicited with a very poor effort at accountability and transparency.


Sympathy (or lack of) is not the issue. Where are the funds going and for what purpose?

What assurances exist that what is stated about the funding objectives is true?


If this was clearly defined we could make our decision to contribute or not.

It is not be a morality issue, it is a integrity of process issue.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
^^^^
Sort of like building a gondola through a public park, eh?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Yes Anders - precisely like that. You have my support on that point.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
you all should be donating to SOE!!!!We are OUT OF LOBSTER, and im still negotiating for those tahoe lobsters! Send your donations today--there are STARVING members of the expedition that anxiously await yur help,, thanks in advance,, RDA, Chairman,, SOE!
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
I like drewsy's summation of what's gone down on this thread.
But maybe drewsy was composing his post when this little bomb dropped:

It turns out the other side is that they were tresspassing, never asked permission. When villagers approached them to determine what was going on the Americans started the violence by pushing the villagers out of the way, almost ran over one, pepper sprayed them, then drove up a dead end road. Villagers places rocks across the road to stop their return. The Americans crashed over this barrier at high speed. They threw rocks at the truck, but the Americans didn't seem to clue in they should stop and behave properly in someone else's country. Larger boulders were placed on the road, the Americans approached this at high speed and at the last minute drove off the road and crashed causing injuries to the Americans. So now we have violence against the villagers, a car crash hence property damage and injured passengers. They were taken to the village, the National Police were called and they were asked to fill a report about what happened. The Americans claim they were “forced off the road” - untrue, they chose to drive off road. They claim injuries by the villagers, untrue, it was a car crash that did that. No guns were used, unlike the exaggerated story being told. They claim they were somhow intimidatated into signing a false report, when in fact the report was quite true, they crashed their truck and were injured.
expatperu

Of course, nothing is confirmed.

I've teeter totteder back and forth on this whole deal, not wanting to judge.

Dream trip, for sure, turned into a nightmare.

Their trip could've very easily turned nightmarish in Northern Baja where they camped. The horror stories from that region are very real.
And a little further south, in Baja Sur, where they were 100 miles of the highway on the backroad to Scorpion Bay, without any real knowledge of a desolate road.
Or ON THE BEACH at First Point at Scorps. Suprising a local didn't kick their asses, much less, a surfer.
On and on, all the way down through Mexico, Central America, and South America.
Even for seasoned Latin American roadtrippers, much less some kids residing in "lifestyle destination" towns, this is a trip where anything could happen at any time...and finally did.

I hope they heal up and find themselves safe back in Jackson or Moab soon.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Don't want to sound too repetitive but, but blah is right for once


None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
I don't see what insight can be gained, however, by endlessly lambasting them on this forum

That is sort of funny (that somebody would come to the taco looking for insight rather than entertainment.)
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
That is sort of funny (that somebody would come to the taco looking for insight rather than entertainment.)

Is this insight, or entertainment.

Or perhaps both.

I tend to find both on the taco.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
I hope they heal up and find themselves safe back in Jackson or Moab soon.
Don't forget Boulder!

But regarding this point:
I like drewsy's summation of what's gone down on this thread.
But maybe drewsy was composing his post when this little bomb dropped:
[villagers account . . .]

Don't see how that is a bombshell at all, just tends to confirm that the villagers are sticking to their story, which seems implausible (for instance, why would they have signed the account saying they were drinking and crashed their truck, even if it were somewhat true, but for duress? And does it really seem likely that they successfully made it as far as they had, even though they do seem somewhat clueless, by driving around drunk?).

But I don't want to retract from my no-one-knows-what-the-hell-happened stance, expressed by others and quoted with approval by my friend zBrown (friend at least until the the Trayvon Martin story heats up again, then we'll see!)
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Well, one thing... To use that fundraiser platform instead of simply setting up a direct PayPal(or heaven forbid going to a bank and setting up a trust) puts 2.5% of all donations into the pocket of the website.

So...$20,000 - the website gets $500.

Also, every donation includes a 2.5% credit card processing fee on top of their donation.

I know I have learned a little from this thread, if I were ever to be traveling in other countries, to do research and understand as clearly as I could, how to manage myself.

I will say that I have read some of the blog posts, and was pretty surprised to see an attitude sort of like "ewwww," even after having been supposedly immersed for several months. I guess a nice metal shell, e-lectronics and neon outerwear acts as a bit of shield from that immersive experience.


Nonetheless, I do wish them a full recovery, and also a quick fading of the 15 minutes fame.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
simply setting up a direct PayPal

They have had a donation link on their blogsite - it says "Donate: Buy us a taco or a tank!"
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Yes, I know about that one - I refer to this recent campaign.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
My point is, they had a system in place to accept funds (or a taco). That's been there and available to anyone who wants to use it. Noting it is not a value judgement. Heck, many people use these sorts of links. Why would pointing that out appear unfair?

There is simply no need for them to start any new links to donations. Nothing unfair in pointing that out.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
In all fairness, asking others for money because your trip went horribly wrong is absurd... especially if you are replacing iPhuns and sh#t.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Credit: zYorkie de Merced

As long as we're pointing things out, I'd like to ask who would you rather send money to, John Long or Los Tres Peruvian Amigo/Amigas? or our former President elect?












Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
I wonder if the 'villagers' heard about the Newtown Conn. tragedy? And what they think of us?
Something like...."fancy clothes, electronics, money, look at what they eat and they shoot each other?"
They must be like WTF?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
No worries. Like Blahblah said - none of us know what happened there. And really, it doesn't matter in some ways. They got whooped up on and that is a drag. Did they start it? Who knows. Were they purely innocent? Who knows. Were they purely guilty? Who knows.

I don't have a dog in the race, but as I noted above, the asking for money for luxury items turns me off. Maybe the fund was started without their knowledge. If so, that is uncool (and unethical imo) of someone to do that! If someone did that on my behalf, I would state that publicly and return that money ASAP.

That has not happened however. But they are not me and that's okay. That is the only part that turns me off about their behavior. They are not *victims* of un-asked-for-money falling into their lap (!!Someone else set up the fund, it's not our fault!!!). They cannot honestly say "we didn't ask for it so it's not our fault" "but hey let's finish our trip maybe because of it" at the same time imo.

Keep in mind, this is only my opinion which is worth nothing in the scheme of things.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
And really, it doesn't matter in some ways.

Yeah, but in some ways it does. If someone is unfairly brutalized, then isn't it fair to ask for donatations?

And, if someone wasn't, then isn't it abominable to ask for them?

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
^^^^^ Yup, Crimpie. In total agreement as far as the funds. They can certainly turn it down even if they didn't set up fundraising in the first place. Pretty lame if they're taking money to buy replacement luxuries, if that is happening. Not so lame if they use that money for medical or travel expenses back home, not to continue the trip. All my opinion, of course.

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Agreed T*R.

And ZBrown, I also think it matters in this way: IF the three were in the wrong, then it's inappropriate to demonize the people in that village, or the people of Peru. Going public could have terrible consequences for those there both personally and economically.

edit:
If someone is unfairly brutalized, then isn't it fair to ask for donations?

I think it's fine if someone asks for help for healthcare issues. Everyone can then contribute as they see fit. I think that is the case whether it was an unfair brutalization or not. People can choose what to do based on the case. But asking for help for equipment and things like that...that is not appropriate imo even if they were brutalized unfairly. Some people may still step up and help. Others not. Others mileage may vary.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Maybe the fund was started without their knowledge. If so, that is uncool (and unethical imo) of someone to do that! If someone did that on my behalf, I would state that publicly and return that money ASAP.

-unless that someone had the money go straight into their own PayPal account instead of yours. ;-)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Pretty lame if they're taking money to buy replacement luxuries, if that is happening.

Slayton - they noted that they replaced their laptop with 5k already.

edit:

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.

Agreed. And I'll add this change:

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals and the Peruvians, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
crimpergirl, i agree with you. what's at stake here is not really who's right or who's wrong. who asked for money for what. i'm not interested in judging people's personal decisions during or after a trauma. what the bigger issue is--as you say--is that going public with only one side of the story has created a slew of negative, and prejudiced responses not only to the people in that specific town, pallca, but also in small andean villages in general, and even peru. i have seen some forum comments saying things like "oh man, i will never go to a third world country!" i would hate for the ultimate outcome of all of this to be to reinforce stereotypes and impede future cross-cultural exchanges...

i don't think there is a "right" side of the story here. to me, it seems like there are victims on all sides of this horrific cultural misunderstanding. it is unfortunate that the way power dynamics work, that only the wolfroms' story is being heard!!

http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
When those people eventually come back from Peru they will probably start throwing rocks at the SuperTopo people for talking sh!t about them .....

:-)
Guernica

climber
right there, right then
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
Chichalimona- without a doubt, the coolest and most alliterative username on here. My compliments!

Carry on.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
chichalimona-

Good editorial at several levels.



Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Slayton - they noted that they replaced their laptop with 5k already.

They spent 5K on a laptop?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I can't find now where I read that. Thought it was in their blog, but don't see it now. Maybe it was upthread.

I could be wrong, but I am certain I read it somewhere.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
I appreciate your post and attempt at starting a dialogue Chicha. What other Spanish Language sources apart from the one I found earlier are there that deal with this incident? Peruvian blogs/newspapers with a non-racist slant? Can you point us in any direction?

-Pat
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
hey pat,

most of the stuff coming out of peru is objective, not taking sides. most articles claim that the people of pallca thought they tourists were cattle rustlers, which seems unlikely, but most likely implies that they were at least perceived as a threat. headlines are pretty much the same across the board: tourists attacked by comuneros. here are a few links:

http://www.radiosicuani.org.pe/nacional/item/168-turistas-norteamericanos-fueron-agredidos-por-comuneros-de-pallca-en-quispicanchi.html

http://www.meganoticias.net/cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-golpeados-por-campesinos-de-ocongate/

http://www.aatccusco.com/boletin.php

i haven't had any luck finding blogs.

in general, this is not making news in cusco the way it is here. the story of a lost brasilian tourist is currently making more headlines in peru.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Just got time to read the blog post.

Something funny about this. Seems bogus. Very similar to weak phishing attempts I have seen.


Why not just get money from relatives?

If the were real, it would be a major front page news item in the media. Good Morning America could fly them back and pay all their bills to scoop this story.


Pictures of the mayhem would be worth a fortune.



Bogus!
sullly

Trad climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Wbraun with another classic. If they do throw rocks at us, we can fend them off with bear spray (whatever the hell that is).

What gets me are too many calls for funds at once on ST. Now a member - for two days - plants this story. Has anyone from ST contibuted? It comes on the heels of Ms. Goodsit's fund for Largo. As Russ pointed out, a fest in J Tree for Largo is far less suspicious as a money raiser than a new member soliciting donations.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:08pm PT

most of the stuff coming out of peru is objective, not taking sides. most articles claim that the people of pallca thought they tourists were cattle rustlers, which seems unlikely, but most likely implies that they were at least perceived as a threat. headlines are pretty much the same across the board: tourists attacked by comuneros. here are a few links:
:

Thank you. I appreciate hearing the the people of Peru don't appear to be buying the notion that the villagers thought that they were cattle rustlers.

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Crimps, I like the change and wholeheartedly agree.

Haven't seen that info on the laptop but, again, if true, totally lame.

Cheers.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
I am losing my mind trying to find that text. Hopefully I'll stumble on it again. I wonder if it's been removed?? I suppose it's possible I dreamed I read it, but it makes me sad that I am wasting valuable dream time on stuff like this. :)
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Thank you. I appreciate hearing the the people of Peru don't appear to be buying the notion that the villagers thought that they were cattle rustlers.

I should clarify that the objective info is coming from the news articles. There are certainly horrific racist comments in response to those news articles! There are also tempered responses. There are also responses leaning in the opposite direction, applauding the people in Pallca and condemning the tourists. It's across the board on opinions no matter where you are!!
SofCookay

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
They did change the bottom of their blog to remove the list of items/values that were stolen - it now reads:

"The bottom half of this letter has now been removed. I posted this letter that Jenny wrote in order to quickly release our story as it was the only written account I had immediate access to and didn’t have the time to write it out myself. The point of posting this letter was to get our story out so that the legal system in Peru would have to do somthing, as before we released it they were all twittling their thumbs hoping we would just go away. The point was not to ilicit for money just becuase we listed the items which were stolen from us!"

Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Crimpie, I remember reading too that the first thing they did after they got out of the hospital was purchase a new laptop. I don't recall seeing a price but they got a new laptop above all other things.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Thanks SofCookay. I have to assume I saw it there at some point.

Edit:

Thanks Fluoride!

Crimpie, I remember reading too that the first thing they did after they got out of the hospital was purchase a new laptop. I don't recall seeing a price but they got a new laptop above all other things.


That was my thought as well. That was apparently a priority and it was 5k for sure as I was surprised at the cost. I can't judge as I have no idea how much laptops cost there, but it struck me as expensive.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
If those travelers have even a quarter's worth of the character they believe themselves to have they would donate that money to the village.. it would go a very long way in establishing community medical care there, or basic education.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:16pm PT



Best trip report ever!!!


Oh the Pomp and Circumstances.

If anything Supertopo probably has the best peanut gallery in the world.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Thank you ChiCha!

Crimper-
I've been following this story pretty closely as I am laying here at home nursing a dislocated elbow and going stir crazy. I haven't seen anywhere that they paid 5k for a new laptop. They mentioned they bought a new laptop and I think withdrew a certain amount from their account, but I didn't see anything about spending 5k.

You don't have to look far to fault them for frivolous spending, just look at their blog photos and posts. There is one picture of them deciding which 400$ pair of mountaineering boots to buy for one (failed) attempt at a volcano in Ecuador.

They appear to be making some poor decisions in the wake of the tragedy, and if justice is needed the people who donated should take that up with them (I highly doubt anyone here donated). Then again they might be just laying in their hospital beds with previously unnoticed subdurals and brain swelling, a very real possibility after being struck in the head with rocks. Whatever, they didn't deserve to be stoned, beaten and whipped. That should always be the lesson regardless of race color or creed or money, and that is the lesson always lost in the chatter of modern media and search for reason.

-Pat
SofCookay

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
How else were they going to change their blog to show they are not soliciting for donations if they didn't get a laptop first? Come on, people, think!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
In the early 90s I hooked up with two other people in Ecuador, hired a Cessna and cruised out in to the amazon basin. We landed on a grass strip at a navy base(!) and hired some locals to take us down some river to another base where we would be picked up five or so days later by the plane.

We went down the river mostly without incident, staying in peoples raised huts, drinking banana wine, etc. One place we pulled up and the locals were seriously pissed. Like guys yelling and pointing at us with machetes. Who knows why, they mostly don't speak Spanish in the jungle. Our local guides calmed them down and we went on our way. No money/bribes were paid- the guys were just seriously angry to see us. It was pretty scary.

No real point, but things can go sideways when you get off the beaten track. That said, this story sounds like BS and, though no one should be whooped up on, they and their families should foot any bill.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
i really, really, don't need or want to see photos of people who have been bruised and battered. i hope they DON'T post photos.

I do! Might make this interesting.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Maybe all the cameras got taken, who knows. I do know something for sure. If what they say happened to them, happened to me, I would sure as hell be pressing charges!!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
If I was brutally beaten, terrorized, had a hundred stitches and missing 4 front teeth the first thing I'd want to do is get back to the states and get proper medical help in dealing with the physical and mental injuries. Seems like they just want money to repair their truck, replace their belongings and continue on.

Where exactly are they going to get these stitches removed in remote areas of South America as they do this? How does this guy want to continue his trip missing 4 front teeth? How's he going to eat? Get through the pain? Get his stitches removed in a sterile, safe environment when he heals?

Makes ya wonder.

t*r, I AM curious about these injuries and why no pictures have surfaced, yet we have got full accounts of how much a stolen Nano-Puf jacket costs and needs replacing.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
This so last week's news.

Did they bomb the village yet?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
SBRphoto said:
"They spent 5K on a laptop?"
No, the Sony Vaio and software was listed at $4,000. Maybe they wanted to upgrade to 2 Macs.




There are 2 fundraising sites. One is transparent and lists the dollars captured in real time. They pulled $15,000 out of it and the remaining is now at $4,780.90. Can anyone advise how much did the other one haul in?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
What I saw was that they listed the stolen laptop at being valued at 4K.

I later saw they bought a new one for 5K. The 5k stood out to me as I thought it a very expensive laptop (and I wondered what it'd do at that price).

Not that it really matters, but I did not confuse the two items.

Sorry to hear about the elbow Pat. I am sitting here day after day as well - but I'm stuck working. Between runs and things I peek over to the taco a fair amount (i.e., too much). At least I can stop working for the day. Your dislocated elbow remains. :/

sullly

Trad climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
The thread that keeps on giving!
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
I went to the Apple site in search of a $5000 laptop. The best I could do was the 15" MacBook Pro with Retina display, processor bump to 2.7 Ghz, RAM bumped to 16GB, and flash drive bumped to 768 GB. It came out to $3749.00. Even if you throw in AppleCare for $349.00, it's quite a bit less than five large...
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Hardman, for them to buy a new laptop on the spot in Cuzco it would have been heavily upgraded in cost and tax as a good new laptop in those parts is not easy to come by. I believe $5K is what they would have paid out there. Cuzco is the only major city in the region. I'd be shocked if there's more than 2 places in that city to buy one on the spot. And they managed to find it right away.

Peru has massive import tariffs and unless the business has a Western owner or benefactor, Peruvian business folk have to pay a ton for the stuff we buy for half the cost.

The fact that a new laptop is the first thing they bought and their most essential need is what speaks volumes to me. They could have had family buy them a new one here in the states for thousands less and ship it to them in Cuzco. But that would have taken time. They obviously wanted to get their story out ASAP.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
t*r, you don't get whipping slashes from a car accident. They claimed they were whipped. Their injuries will help tell the story of what really happened.
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
We need to see everything.

Now go hide .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
I just don't see why any strangers would give them a dime to replace anything... Are people really that stupid? Wait... scratch that....

Very clever though I must admit...
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
The fact that a new laptop is the first thing they bought and their most essential need is what speaks volumes to me. They could have had family buy them a new one here in the states for thousands less and ship it to them in Cuzco. But that would have taken time. They obviously wanted to get their story out ASAP.

They could have gone to an Internet cafe and posted their story online for less than $10.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
stzzo, they said they bought a new laptop. They weren't sitting in an internet cafe posting on an hourly rate basis.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
While reading this thread from beginning to the end my feeling toward the victims has changed from big sympathy to questioning the validity of the story they posted.
Some asked on this thread that "[w]e need to hear story from another side (villagers)". This other side's story we can read indirectly in Jennifer Wolfrom report when she says that they were forced to sign the papers of accident report basically under gun point with the following statement explaining the car damage and their injuries :
Their accident report, written in Spanish, essentially said that we had been drinking and crashed our car, which is how the car got destroyed and how we got our injuries. However, the extent of our injuries and the condition of the car far surpasses anything that could happen by driving into a grassy ditch

If at some point we finally get the story from the dwellers of Pallcca we can except that it would be similar to this accident report.
So where is the truth ? Does it lie somewhere in the middle?

In my mind, there are many things which affect the truthfulness of Jennifer story . For instance this part:
There were at least 30 people chasing us and throwing rocks at us at one point. We were running for our lives for between 30 minutes to an hour through the village hills and rivers. We were each struck multiple times by rocks in the head and all over our bodies. We eventually were surrounded by villagers who continued to beat us until they decided to bring us back to the Presidente of the village.

Try to imagine this happening in complete dark. If the mob of 30 locals were chasing the trio with rocks within striking distance - how could this chase be so long (30 min?) What is the reason to strike rocks in the dark if you chasing someone?

If an angry mob of 30 people really beat them they would be dead or severely injured …

The other thing which surprises me is that in the pursuit to collect more money they did not post/submit their photos showing the injuries they got from the beatings, stoning and whipping. Why? Such a photo could answer some questions about the incident - whether in their favor or disproving the story.

Reading her story more and more I trust it less and less. For instance, the reason for driving inside of the village and not back to main road is not explained
The number of beer bottles they had two between tree - not worth to mention unless it was something much more they had been drinking ...

And one more thing: If this terrible life and death experience would happen to me and my wife and my sister - it would be so traumatic that at first possible chance we all run back home, next day.
So if they remained there, collecting money, posting on blogs - it implies for me that their traumatic experience was not so dramatic as they try to make it to be.

And back to original post on this tread.
Patrick Compton registered on ST one day before posting some nonsense on Boobs thread and then 24 hours later dropped a link to donations
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed
Patrick Compton has never chimed up again.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
It easy enough to weigh in and give one's 2 cents worth. A more difficult, time-consuming and valuable approach would be to interview a number of the villagers in the attacking group, and get their side of the story.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
t*r, if there were any gruesome photos of this and the injuries they sustained, it would be all over the internet by now. Every major media source is checking on this story. The UK Daily Mail alone has been looking into pictures to go along with this incident. Hospitals would have the photos and those that work there would easily sell them to a Western media outlet for great money.

They are reporting on an international incident and want proof of what went down. Which is why this story has not gained legs in the world media. Initial reports from what they claimed yes, follow up with proof of it, no.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
"And one more thing: If this terrible life and death experience would happen to me and my wife and my sister - it would be so traumatic that at first possible chance we all run back home, next day.
So if they remained there, collecting money, posting on blogs - it implies for me that their traumatic experience was not so dramatic as they try to make it to be."

Bingo Alexey! I said the same thing just upthread.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
So, these ugly Americans, at worst, defraud some money fat idiots and enrage a bunch of myopic online wankers while continuing to live the dream. Respect.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:12am PT
4 days later and STILL knott all over the international media.

I think it's official.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Has anyone here an opinion on the massive die-off of dolphins and penguins in Peru? Could there be a tie-in?

http://www.sott.net/article/245836-Dolphin-Deaths-in-Peru-The-Mystery-Deepens

BTW Crimpie. I would agree that donations would be appropriate for medical needs and not for gadgets. For those they should contact their homeowners insurance company.







The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:19am PT
stzzo, they said they bought a new laptop. They weren't sitting in an internet cafe posting on an hourly rate basis.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I know this.

My point was that a new laptop at Cuzco prices was likely not necessary to get the story out. To get the story out, an Internet cafe would likely have sufficed.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:20am PT
The single most obvious feature of this story is that nothing has been verified. At least as told here on this thread. I havn't bothered exploring further elsewhere. Even the event itself seems at least a little doubtful in spots. Certainly the soliciting of funds and for what purpose they are intended has not been explained at all or verified as legitimate.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out eventually that it is all legitimate but at this point it would be equally likely to find out that it is not or at least misrepresented in purpose. I honestly don't see the point of even paying attention until the proponents begin to explain themselves a bit better.

Its worth noting that others have gone down this sort of road, most likely with perfectly good and honorable intentions but have totally dropped the ball mostly with other peoples money.

Greg Mortenson comes to mind. Lance Armstrong too.

I would never put a cent into anything like this without a high degree of verification, transparency and accountability.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:25am PT
Where is the OP Patrick Compton these days?
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:38am PT
At an ATM somewhere in South America, laughing his ass off.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Good one!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:44am PT
if there were any gruesome photos of this and the injuries they sustained, it would be all over the internet by now.


El Presidente is the one with the mustache.
El Presidente is the one with the mustache.
Credit: crunch

pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:48am PT
Thanks for the kind words Crimper!

Here is one last wild conjecture and thoughts about what happened and then I have to move on.

Some here and on other sites completely reject that this happened. Based on what I have read, and my own experiences living in Mexico I believe it did. Here is one way it could have easily gone down:

The three gringos drive up to camp for the night at what looks like a deserted spot. Tired they sit down and break out some beer. Half mile a way, up the hill, some villagers, also having a beer after a long day see an odd flashy truck pull on to their land. Having had some recent problems with thieves (maybe horse?) two of them elect to go down and see what is going on. Despite their simmering anger over recent events they try to stay friendly and greet the gringos not knowing who they are or where they came from. They only notice they are foreign which just makes them more suspicious. The gringos start saying something like this, "campo aqui?" to which the villagers quizically reply "Si, este es un campo, claro." All seems good to the gringos, but of course it is not at all.

Back at the village the villagers spread the word the thieves are back, and El Presidente (the Mexicans love nicknames, is it the same in Peru?) gets involved because he is responsible for this village given the police never drop by. Fuming they walk down to the gringos who, being foreign, probably only makes them more deserving of some sort of questioning. The mood is changing and the gringos can feel it. Someone logically demands papers and the gringos think, partly because of the devolving mood, that this is an extortion attempt. They refuse. The villagers see them as more and more suspicious by the minute because of this and get angrier. Scared and getting into flight mode the gringos push their way back to the car which only angers the villagers more who now absolutely must see them detained (they are after all acting guilty). The rest is history with a 10 minute chase seeming like 30 because they are terrified. The gringos experience frontier apprehension and justice, El Presidente realizes his mistake but is unable to convince some of the rest,and the most cultural of cultural experiences results.

On a side note, 20-30 people does not usually a village make (think 100). The romantic in me likes to think a few of the locals did indeed wait this one out, or maybe it got lost in translation that some pleaded their innocence but maybe I am wrong. It doesn't really take an ugly American to have this happen, although granted the three fit the bill to a certain degree and it did not help them.

I really feel for these three despite the bad decisions they may have made. If the story checks out they were, and continue to be innocent of what happened to them. America seems to have taken a turn for the worse lately, and it hit really close to home for me recently. Three months ago I would be joining in the chorus of naysayers. It sucks imagining the horror of the last moments on earth of someone you know, I know I am not alone here. I visited Fero's bar and Grill in Denver two weeks after my friends murder. Staring inside the window I got a strong wiff of a sickly sweet smell, burnt flesh, and I can't get it out of my mind. Did these three almost travel a similar path?

I wish these three the best with what they have to endure. I hope they make the right decision with their money when their lives are stabilized. Give them time. Given the supposed wealth of empathy we have gained in our travels, are we not still being the same old impatient judgmental Americans at heart when dealing with our own?

-Pat
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Only 471 posts...
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:55am PT
no kidding. This is the part that resonates for me


If the story checks out


Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Then don't post t*r.

I did the opposite. I stayed out of this until I've seen enough information from both sides to want to post.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Me too, interested to see how this pans out, sorry to keep stirring the pot.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Its a little more logical and isn't quite as obviously biased towards evil Americans as the expatperu thing was. That was obvious conjecture too, and you know it.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:22am PT
My name is Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom. I am a US citizen, a resident of the state of Wyoming, ... my brother (Joseph Palmer Wolfrom III), and my sister in law (Meghan Moore Doherty).


Okay,

#1. Americans DON'T use their middle names. We keep them secret and usually don't like them.


#2. We don't bother telling our citizenship. We just assume anyone reading with think we are Americans.


I could go on and on.



As far as these hoaxes go, this one is very well prepared and very well written. They have probably made out pretty well for their effort. I expect this whole thing was put up by some clever Nigerians.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:26am PT
But, Spidey, many Nigerians are educated in England and can be excused such
excesses in the pursuit of gravitas.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:01am PT
Not a hoax.

Nice work, pat. Your version of events is probably very, very close.

Now in a local Peruvian newspaper, though not exactly front-page news:

http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate

Google's translation:

A group of American tourists was attacked by several residents of the rural community of Pallca, in the district of Ocongate Quispicanchi province, Cusco, the night of December 29.

The correspondent of The Trade Area, Ralph Zapata, reported that the Department of Foreign Trade and Tourism of Cusco confirmed the beating from information from Ocongate police station, but said that did not enter any formal complaint at the above address .

Apparently, tourists entered the community, were not identified and there were problems with the language. Farmers have mistaken the rustlers.

One side of the story is told by Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom, one of the assaulted, in a blog. She noticed that other people are brutally beaten Palmer Joseph Doherty Wolfrom and Meghan Moore.

According to chronicles, were also stripped of their documents and belongings valued at thousands of dollars. The publication says it all happened after they tried to park your vehicle.

He claims that, without further explanation, the unit was locked and suddenly began to rain stones. Subsequently, although the occupants abandoned the truck, the persecution continued.

"There were at least 30 people and chased us throwing stones [...] We whipped and beaten for several hours between interrogation sessions," he says. It is not known if people arrested.
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:10am PT
I can't find Palca, near Ocongate, on any maps. But here's Ocongate, and the incident is said to have occurred within a few miles of Ocongate.



The place is spectacular; follow this link for a higher resolution version on Panoramio: Ocongate, by jad-ash

The area has an important tourist industry with mountain rescue, tourism development officers, etc. I doubt the women and children went out in the rain at night just to start trouble; there are a few missing pieces of the story.

Refusing to show papers to the village leader, who is vested with law enforcement powers, was a serious escalation. Choosing to run under those circumstances will get you in trouble just about anywhere.

Some social skills and gifts would have probably made for a much happier evening.
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:20am PT
I should have responded 150 posts ago, but so be it. I'm in complete agreement that we don't know all the facts about this scenario. I don't have any secret knowledge and I don't think that I implied in any way that I did. I mainly restated information that we 'have' (as in, have, for better or worse, been given; feel free to add to it in any way as I'm sure I missed at least a couple of salient details). Arrogance wasn't intended either on my part, but maybe it's a tonal thing? I don't know.

Anyway, the three Americans have made some questionable choices but I guess my main point is: we can't assume that because everything doesn't add up exactly how we would want it to indicates they're perpetrating a clandestine heist via helpers on the internet. They actually do have a travel blog that, at least temporally and geographically, sets the stage for the event in question. I definitely believe there is a non-zero chance that this may be the case, however; we just don't have the necessary info to say for certain. I don't think the 'local perspective' given upstream is any more or less verifiable here than the original narrative, but similarly it can't be entirely discounted either. Americans do often act opprobriously whilst abroad so nothing of that kind can be ruled out.

I think it's far more likely that reality lies somewhere in-between, that these people made a serious error and that they may even have known it at the time. The 'correct' narrative is probably a combination of perspectives, some of which we just haven't seen yet. One thing that just doesn't bother me is that they are receiving money, most likely from people that they know: there's certainly precedent for this kind of action. Some might question why they should donate to help an injured climber, for instance; it's all about target audience and I think even the fund drive in question here is targeted most towards people who don't mind donating $50-100. Of course I agree that fundraising should ideally be undertaken in the most transparent way possible but then again I'm not sure there's anything actually being obfuscated here unless the whole thing is a fraud. Without verifiable information, it's hard to come to any conclusion without skipping a few crucial steps. In terms of 'what I would do': I'm not sure if I would solicit funds other than, perhaps, to secure my return home. But to reiterate, unless we find information to the contrary, it wasn't the victims themselves who solicited funds; the original post was alleged to be part of a statement intended for some official capacity and the list of belongings was not meant as a gift registry (although it does somewhat conveniently double as such). I don't know that I would accept money to replace my stolen belongings with the knowledge that losing money and things is an objective hazard anywhere I go, but I guess we all need help from time to time. Entitlement is an entrenched problem in our society that I doubt we can solve here and now.

I'm still interested in seeing how this pans out. Maybe there will be some kind of information forthcoming that will flesh out the story a bit more. Maybe it will turn out to be a complete hoax! That seems overly bizarre to me, but stranger things have happened. As for the slander here: I suppose that's what the internet is for. I think Ron had it right in that respect. I too am surprised that I linked insight to online forums, although it certainly surfaces here and there amongst all the other flotsam.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:34am PT
I disagree. I think we have all the facts we need to sort this thing out right now...

Keep your heads up when you travel, and if your sh#t gets stolen don't be a d#@&%e bag and ask (or let your f/f ask) the rest of the world to replace your iFukall.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:36am PT
Drew, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and well worded intentions. However I think you're off base.

There's enough info out there now to make their claims VERY suspect.

"Entitlement is an entrenched problem in our society that I doubt we can solve here and now."

Umm...parking on indigenous folks' land, refusing to give them documentation, pepper spraying locals and trying to bulldoze over locals building roadblocks...you're not going to have a positive result from this. They handled this situation in the worst ways possible. Entitlement was a core problem of this incident as it was reported.

mechrist, agreed and you're right
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:40am PT


"Keep your heads up when you travel, and if your sh#t gets stolen don't be a d#@&%e bag and ask (or let your f/f ask) the rest of the world to replace your iFukall."...

+1

Derrell Licht

climber
Around
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:45am PT
It's pretty awful to watch virtually defenseless people get stoned by a blood-thirsty mob. I mean, of course, by all the jerk keyboard warriors and forum trolls. You should all be deeply ashamed of yourselves; how ironic that what you're doing is exactly the same mob behavior. I've personally been involved in an incident much like this one and know exactly what it feels like to narrowly escape with your life and then proceed to get bombarded by a bunch of asshats who try to construe every bit of information they can get their greasy hands on to discredit you and call you a liar, d#@&%ebag, or moron. It's just awful in every sense of the word. Awful. Some hapless people were involved in an episode in which some sort of misunderstanding or shake-down for cash led to them getting the crap beat out of them. So the F what? Why does it matter to you? Maybe just try a gesture of a decent human being and wish them well on their way. The endless speculation is disgusting. You might end up sitting around a fire with them one day or crashing at their house or maybe they'll be the next ones down the descent and help you with a stuck rope; they are probably some of the kindest and most well-meaning folks around. Then you'll be the one to feel like a complete knob and hopefully it will cause you to correct your life for the better in the future. Except that most of the negativity probably comes from those who struggle to climb into an office chair and bore the internet with their drivel and the content of their sad and unfulfilled brains.

Full disclosure: I used to be a ST poster and bailed out because of the insensitive, childish, know-it-all twits who populate this place. I still lurk but attitudes like this are what drive people away from here.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 04:00am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozk-NDc3JSUi

Are you related to Krista Goodsitt by any chance?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:53am PT
just tends to confirm that the villagers are sticking to their story,

Blahblah, don't you mean travelers?


and also a quick fading of the 15 minutes fame

Happiegrrrl, amen to that
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:24am PT
Riley,

What's the point of scouring the Internet for stupid opinions and troll posts and collecting them here?
Bargainhunter

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:25am PT
What Derrell Licht said.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 08:26am PT
where is the OP. Patrick Compton these days?

Lurking my own post.

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone on here has one.

Fun to watch. Fascinating how many like to criticize the travelers for their belongings and how they acted. Most people reading this would have taken patagucci sh#t, iPhones and pads and reacted to aggression with fear and responded with aggression, just like they did.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:27am PT
Slayton and others. Perhaps I myself am guilty of being subjective concerning this issue, and even judgmental. It’s not like I despise these three people. But what gets my goat is the crassness in the way they have been trying to raise funds, and not only for their troubles in Peru.

It seems to me, 'seems' I repeat, that they have been wanting people to pay for their holiday, ie a free camper van, is that true? If there was sponsorship involved, okay, but I wonder…

As for their story, something doesn’t sit right with me.

As I mentioned before, I’d like to hear the other side of the story, if possible.

I posted earlier that if I had the resources that a) I could get someone to look after Jennie to b) travel to Peru to c) find an interpreter/local to d) interview the villagers to e) see what their side of the story is… there just about always are two sides (if not more) to a story.

Not blowing my own horn but I have interviewed presidents and prime ministers, captains of industry, union leaders, celebrities, and just ‘regular’ people. I have always strived to be objective in my interviews. That said I have had (dickhead) editors change my copy to their taste/liking/slant. I am never happy with that. I am an experienced interviewer.

There must be some journalist in Peru who could go to the village and interview the villagers. Perhaps there has been such an interview, but I have yet to find it.

The links by chichalimona explains some

http://chichalimona.blogspot.ie/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html

http://www.radiosicuani.org.pe/nacional/item/168-turistas-norteamericanos-fueron-agredidos-por-comuneros-de-pallca-en-quispicanchi.html

http://www.meganoticias.net/cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-golpeados-por-campesinos-de-ocongate/

http://www.aatccusco.com/boletin.php


Though my Spanish is very rusty.

My gut feeling tells me that there is more to this story than the three travelers are telling.

Cheers, and safe climbing, wherever you are.

Patrick
crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:45am PT
Riley,

Those first quotes brought to light some interesting original material, particularly Jed's alleged intercepted Facebook messages.

The second ones do in fact illustrate that there are stupid people and trolls on the Internet, but if someone doesn't already know that I don't think there's much point in devoting part of this thread to convincing them.

Just my opinion, though, thanks for explaining!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:59am PT
There is an element about the three travelers and their story that reminds me of the inexperienced people who can afford to buy a ticket to climb Everest. They crave the adventure but have no idea what they are really getting into.
.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:19am PT
Credit: Don Paul
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Port-a-John
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:53am PT
ROTFLOL Don Paul, great post.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:09am PT
posted by some Derrell Licht

"It's pretty awful to watch virtually defenseless people get stoned by a blood-thirsty mob. I mean, of course, by all the jerk keyboard warriors and forum trolls. You should all be deeply ashamed of yourselves; how ironic that what you're doing is exactly the same mob behavior. I've personally been involved in an incident much like this one and know exactly what it feels like to narrowly escape with your life and then proceed to get bombarded by a bunch of asshats who try to construe every bit of information they can get their greasy hands on to discredit you and call you a liar, d#@&%ebag, or moron. It's just awful in every sense of the word. Awful. Some hapless people were involved in an episode in which some sort of misunderstanding or shake-down for cash led to them getting the crap beat out of them. So the F what? Why does it matter to you? Maybe just try a gesture of a decent human being and wish them well on their way. The endless speculation is disgusting. You might end up sitting around a fire with them one day or crashing at their house or maybe they'll be the next ones down the descent and help you with a stuck rope; they are probably some of the kindest and most well-meaning folks around. Then you'll be the one to feel like a complete knob and hopefully it will cause you to correct your life for the better in the future. Except that most of the negativity probably comes from those who struggle to climb into an office chair and bore the internet with their drivel and the content of their sad and unfulfilled brains."


"Full disclosure: I used to be a ST poster and bailed out because of the insensitive, childish, know-it-all twits who populate this place. I still lurk but attitudes like this are what drive people away from here."


Woke up to this irony- it cracked me up.

Stay away whiner , know it all, name caller,speculator. Its those weak individuals who think only what they have to say is important. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I cant stand people who come and go and complain about this place. F*#king hilarious!

Edit: we are all individuals and dont need to do things YOUR WAY!
there is no right or wrong, just Life and Death

just a wild guess - but are you a christian Derrel Licht ?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Well when comments like wanting to go into the village with AK-47s or nukes are posted it certainly is an insight into a twisted thinking that is a bit too common.
Gimp

Trad climber
Grand Junction
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Just got back 36 hours ago from my 11th trip to south america. Fun place but unless you are in a park situation like Los Glaciers or Torres del Paine I think it is always best to assume someone will want to be paid to camp anywhere below the snow line (particularly in Bolivia or Peru in my experience). Best to be proactive and seek permission and usually offer to not only pay but to also hire a local as a guard as a token of good will if nothing else.
Steve
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:46am PT
yes philo, because clearly internet comments are insight into the most reasonable sect of society...especially on news articles.

That is not what I am saying.
Why are you making that assessment?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:51am PT
So the F what? Why does it matter to you?

Maybe because people want to know something about the guys that are asking them for money. It's not as though people haven't gotten a little thick skinned about plays for money that they haven't got.....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:54am PT
Question for Patrick Compton.

The three have maintained that they didn't set up the donation sites and they did not ask for any funds. So is it correct to assume they didn't ask you to post this thread asking for funds (the link to donating) to help the climbers?

If so, do you worry they'll throw you under the bus for doing this like they did the others who asked for funds?

I ask with genuine curiosity and no animosity toward you or your having posted this.

edit: corrected OP's name from Pat to Patrick. Sorry about that!
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:59am PT
OP (Patrick Compton) wrote:

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone on here has one.

Fun to watch. Fascinating how many like to criticize the travelers for their belongings and how they acted. Most people reading this would have taken patagucci sh#t, iPhones and pads and reacted to aggression with fear and responded with aggression, just like they did.

Yes, everyone has an opinion, and you have been around the internet long enough to know that posting a thread in the manner you did would bring them out. You posted no connective information, such as "These guys are cousins of my friend" or "I climbed with this guy last year" or "I've been following the blog..."

You posted an incendiary threat title with a link, one that didn't actually click through, if I recall, and nothing more.


***

As for you own opinion(hmmm....) that most here would have behaved in the same way, it's likely not true.

MOST people here are pretty aware that when traveling in remote regions, one should educate themselves appropriately and act in accordance with local customs. I can't for the life of me imagine snapping pictures of a travel partner in markets where we are getting the stinkeye and thinking that makes for an appropriate blog photo.


I haven't traveled much, and never for adventure. But a few years ago my friends suggested we drive down into Mexico (we were in the southwest for winter) and I totally balked at the idea. There was no way I was about to jump in my van and tourist around. And my van was a rolling metal leper(rusty as hell).

If even someone who hasn't even considered travel in Central/South America knows they need keep a respectful, low profile and even with taking care knows they are at risk - oughtn't a group who has planned such a trip for years(as their blog mentioned) have known how to manage themselves?

Looking at the several posts with images I saw from the blog, it appeared to me that these people were very sheltered from being immersed in the cultures and locales they vacationed through.


I think these people will likely have the Aron Ralston experience, wherein after some time spent processing the events which led to their epic, they see that in fact they were completely responsible for it's making.
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:03am PT
I'd like to offer a little cultural/language clarification:
Small (rural) communities in Latin America often have their own local 'government' in the form of an 'Asociacion' and it typically has elected officers who are prominent members of the community. It would actually be unusual for a rural community to have any constabulary, and it would be very appropriate for the 'Presidente' (of the Asociacion) to be summoned in the night, to investigate potential crime or other issue (trespassing etc.).

While I find it very sad that things went bad so quickly, I also think that there is an underlying thread of cultural arrogance and naivete, which likely contributed to the unfortunate outcome.

Most of all, I find it sad to read the ensuing spray-fest here and elsewhere... I've backpacked and traveled using 'local' transpo in very remote Peruvian areas(and elsewhere in SA and CA), and have only found it to be one of my most memorable (in every positive sense of the word) travel experiences. Interestingly, although I am fully bilingual, I don't speak a word of Quechua, and many of those places I've visited were Quechua-only. But if approached by a legit looking group of people (who probably did speak some Spanish), I would certainly have started by agreeing to identify myself in some way (always carry photocopy of passport).

There is crime everywhere, but I think this was a cultural impasse which quickly escalated into a mini-war - with both sides to blame.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Crimpie, I remember reading that too about the laptop.

John M., perhaps you missed this post from chichalimona

I should clarify that the objective info is coming from the news articles. There are certainly horrific racist comments in response to those news articles! There are also tempered responses. There are also responses leaning in the opposite direction, applauding the people in Pallca and condemning the tourists. It's across the board on opinions no matter where you are!!


Spider Savage, my exact thoughts

t*r, whether you'd like it or not, some photos of physical injuries would go a long way to dispelling the disbelief that some people have.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Crimpergirl and happygrrl,

I have no connection to anyone involved in the incident.

You posted an incendiary threat title with a link, one that didn't actually click through, if I recall, and nothing more.

the idea that I posted this up with 'viscious' in the title just to bring out crackpots on supertaco is hilarious.
Regardless of the criticism of their motivitives and methods, climbers were whipped. Whipped. That is viscous, so is breaking out teeth with rocks.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Thanks Patrick.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
helena montana
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:11am PT
Note to self...If ever attacked by angry mob in foreign country....Quickly yell out..."Do what you want to the girl,just don't hurt ME"....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:13am PT
How else were they going to change their blog to show they are not soliciting for donations if they didn't get a laptop first? Come on, people, think!

SofCookay, I guess Peru is too backwards to have internet cafes. And they said they were staying in an (expensive?) hotel, one would think there would be a net connection there, but of course, i could be wrong.

This story seems to have "divided" some of the Taco Standers, sort of like the Roy Keane/Mick McCarthy fiasco in Saipan in 2002, how it divided a lot of opinions in Ireland.


Hardman Knott, good catch.

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozk-NDc3JSUi

Are you related to Krista Goodsitt by any chance?