help climbers visciously attacked in Peru

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patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 4, 2013 - 10:23am PT
[url="http://https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed"]http://https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed[/url]

click through to the narrative
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:03am PT
http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/nightmare-in-peru/

Holy Crap....

Scratching Pallcca off the list.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:19am PT
Things like this are always a risk, anywhere, anytime, but especially in 3rd world countries. I have been around the world (literally) and have visited over 35 countries. I have limited my travels to central and south America for this very reason.

But I should say the the worst and most violent crime I have ever suffered was in my own neighborhood, in my own town, in my own state, and in my own country, the USA.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Paranoia meets mob mentality with a dose of local henchman.
Probably no little degree of inbreeding also.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:22am PT
Scratch Peru off my list
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:28am PT
I guess my question is: Why didn't the US Consulate get them to the US Embassy ASAP? It would seem that their citizenship could be quickly ascertained in this day and age, even in 3rd tier towns in Peru. Once that's done, the US Embassy should have stepped in and provided assistance.

It's an unfortunate incident that always has the potential to occur when traveling to the edges. I hope everyone involved heals and recovers as fully as possible.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:31am PT
But I should say the the worst and most violent crime I have ever suffered was in my own neighborhood, in my own town, in my own state, and in my own country, the USA.


k.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Insane! May they heal quickly and return home safe.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Indians all over the world seem to be pissed at whitey, I wonder why?

Too bad for these poor travelers.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Wow. What a nightmare.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
crowdtilt link is broken for me


and does 5 gallons of gas really cost 120 dollars in Peru?


"5 gallon gas can and 5 gallons of gas = $120"
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Paranoia meets mob mentality with a dose of local henchman.
Probably no little degree of inbreeding also.
Reilly nails it.

Add in a little showing off something locals couldn't afford in 8 lifetimes:

http://adventureamericas.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/dsc02651.jpg

Anyone recall what is unique about the New Year? This is a time when you see a LOT of poor people along the side of the road, and tons of these road block / gringo tax collection booths.
sharperblue

Mountain climber
oakland, california
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
This is obviously really bad, but also an incredibly isolated, unique incident, however dangerous and brutal. I've spent four seasons climbing in Peru and - aside from the occasional squabbles with dishonest arrieros or petty thefts - have nothing but magnificent memories of the people of that marvelous place.

To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism, and at the very least you're doing yourself an enormous dis-service by missing this place. How many tourists visit Peru each year and how many incidents of violence? Compared to the United states? to Italy?

The points made about 3rd world (in this case 2.5 world) travel are completely valid though; to think that you can just casually drive through a place as vast as South America and expect no trouble is mind-bogglingly naive; it's still the wild west out there - very, very much so. Add in miner's communities (mostly Japanese and Canadian owned companies, btw) who literally kill trouble makers or survivor's of Pinochet's massive massacres escaping north, and you bet you have some pissed off people. Doesn't absolve the violence of course, but it makes it understandable.

The current government of Paraguay isn't even recognized by ANY other South American state due to its being an obvious US patsy set-up (this comment coming from a self-professed patriot) Blow-back to American policies in South America? Who would have ever guessed?
MisterE

Social climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Heart-wrenching.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Very scary. To think you were about to be stoned to death . . .
Holy crap, I don't know what I'd do.

I wonder what the prospects of getting any help from our embassy or the Peruvian government are?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
this is horrible I feel very badly for them. I have traveled to Peru many, many times to climb and explore. I have never experienced anything like this, nor have any of my friends, thankfully. My heart goes put to these folks. You're much safer in the mountains ,climbing. TY
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Anybody who expects more than a modicum of help from a US embassy is seriously
deluded, unless you are somebody. And if you're in the hinterlands - fuggetaboutit.
Of course, if you become a news item then you can expect more but by then it
will do you precious little good, more than likely.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous ...
Dumbasses
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
I wonder what it was about this particular village. You can opine all you want about how they were dumbasses, but the fact remains that they spent hundreds of nights out there and this incident happened in one specific place. So why the Village of the Pitchfork People?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
I guess. It sounds like the main mistake was driving 'away' in the wrong direction.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
very sad story; and I'm within weeks of starting a bike ride across South America. Wake up notice. (by the way, I've been climbing in that exact region some decades ago)

But as to the why, I'm no Peruvian expert, but for 30 years the Shinning Path and the (US supported) central government have been at war in those parts. If the shinning path comes into a village and you don't feed them, they shoot all the men in the village. If you do feed them the gov forces come into town and shoot all the men. Neutrals can't win.

In addition, many villages were instructed by government forces to create "self defense" leagues, to keep the Shinning Path out of their towns. Clearly the victims are neither in this case, but I can sort of understand the paranoia infecting the villagers. In retrospect, accepting the absolute authority of the gang and the presidente may have led to less horrible outcome. Yes they are ignorant villagers, they've been harassed by outsiders for decades, there no doubt was a touch of mob madness involved. But these people have to dig in the mud for 1" diameter potatoes to feed their children. I wouldn't demonize them.

again, very sad.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Good luck on the bike trip mike. Can't wait to see/hear about it.

I was under the impression that the Shining Path hadn't been much of an issue for the last 10 years or so.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous ...
Dumbasses

Some truth in this. If driving is "dangerous", surely stopping is worse?

And, once the locals began behaving suspiciously, why did they decide to drive farther UP the side road they were on, instead of hightailing it back to the main road?

But, they could hardly have expected what was in store, sounds horrific, Deliverance done for real. Hope the victims recover okay from their injuries.

Have to wonder what the villagers' story would be. Sounds awful organized for a simple car-jacking robbery. Maybe the village had experienced violence and crime from out-of-towners, were expecting more trouble, and were alert and ready to fight back? Their response sounds like some kind of third-world Neighborhood Watch scenario.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
A village just doesn't attack you and go crazy like that for no reason..

Yes and no.. I could believe that these people didn't do anything to warrant this attack. There are plenty of stories of crazy people becoming the bully leaders of communities. Bullies don't need a reason, other then you happened by. The leader of this community sounds like a bully.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Some truth in this. If driving is "dangerous", surely stopping is worse?

Climbing is dangerous, stopping is worse. heh heh..
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
They had already been physically attacked when the pepper spray was sprayed.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
these people have to dig in the mud for 1" diameter potatoes to feed their children.
This might be true, but I do like how they get to run around with our cell phones.

I wonder who got the nano-puffs?

This whole incident really comes down to that fancy truck, their cloths and the villagers wanting a piece of it.

Latin America = giant sh#t hole.

In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old.

No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
They made several mistakes in my reading of their story. However, my guess is my Peruvian friends are not proud of their countrymen. TY
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
The people were trying to f*#k with them. Why else would they say it's OK to park, and then start blowing the whistles etc.? Clearly it was a case of mass robbery.

I guess their radar wasn't quite sharp enough for that situation.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I would like to hear what you think their mistakes were.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Maybe the village had experienced violence and crime from out-of-towners, were expecting more trouble, and were alert and ready to fight back? Their response sounds like some kind of third-world Neighborhood Watch scenario.
Yeah, that sounds plausible--you really have to watch it when you see a group consisting of 1 guy and two girls masquerading as being on a long camping trip roll into your town--who knows what havoc they could wreak? Sending in the two girls would be a good "advance scouting team" for the invaders waiting in the wings.

Always interesting (if fairly predictable) to see people's reactions to these types of things. Everything from the "the ugly Americans started it" (seemingly implausible if you believe the account, and if you don't believe it, how could you have any opinion at all?) to the "this is from centuries of gringo oppression."
I'm of the I'm-surprised-this-doesn't-happen-more-often school, but I freely admit that is pure conjecture.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas. Not all Peruvian guides are women, but these are.



JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas.
Have fun negotiating costs on that one, and see what path you take and who you meet along the way and what the police think when they find out your "tour guide" from two villages away isn't officially registered locally in some weird way.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
"I think the proper protocol is to hire a local guide, to take you through the rough areas."

Yeah, that's a tough one when you're driving. Walking, maybe.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
It's interesting that the majority (by far) of anthropologists never get attacked and/or robbed. An acquaintance of mine lived with modern day (automatic weapons equipped) headhunters in the Phillipines, never got held up once.

See for example


Cultural Anthropology: An Applied Perspective
Gary Ferraro

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
When I was in Argentina two years ago we met a bunch of people who had driven
all the way down there with no problems other than bad roads, etc. The
people in this story had too much Kumbaya in the gas tank and, at that,
were running on fumes.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
I would have zero fears of visiting this village.

Me neither. In a gun truck.
dave729

Sport climber
Placer
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
our government is good at gifting attitude adjustment to places like that


Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
So why the Village of the Pitchfork People?

Who knows what the history of that village is.

A fellow worker of mine grew up in a small village in Yugoslavia. The Germans had not exactly been the most behaved guests during their stay in that village. He told me that shortly after the war some poor schmuck drove into the village in a Mercedes. He was pulled from his German car by a mob and beaten to death. His crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time in a German car.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Latin America = giant sh#t hole. In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old. No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back

exactly.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
they should be glad they did not pull over in Reno - chances are pretty good they would have been lit up with automatic weapons

I spent years hanging out in Reno and never felt threatened.

Where'd that thought come from?



Glad that they made it out OK, cultural faux pas or not.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism,

don't know if that remark is directed at me, but you don't know me.

there is still to much to see and do in this country for me to leave the country for adventure
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
The story makes no sense. I assume they were trespassing and when told to leave, the people of the village didn't think they were leaving. Peru is one of the safest countries there is for tourists. They're lucky they got through Colombia without getting into even worse trouble.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Riley backed down like a Peruvian tourist. Wow.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Man, wouldn't ol' Rokjox be preaching up a storm right now?

All about how to travel and be tough and back down the bad guy.
We had some epic pose downs from that guy.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Can anyone verify this whole story? Just askin.... There would have to be plenty of relatives/friends back here who could easily do that...

It seems odd to me that she includes a laundry list (with retail/new prices) of everything that was stolen for her story.

If I, and my friends were attacked that savagely for no reason and injured to such an extent my main goal would become to get the Hell out of there, not to recoup $$ for my lost iThingy.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
It seems odd to me that she includes a laundry list (with retail/new prices) of everything that was stolen for her story.

You obviously have never lived with a 'Type A' woman.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
JLP said
Latin America = giant sh#t hole.
Not in my limited experience. I have met many great people in Mexico, Costa Rica and Peru. Not saying they aren't there, just haven't run across them. Worst I have been treated was some newspaper seller who didn't think my Spanish was good enough. He was surly to me. :(
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
these are the risks one takes when traveling in wild and wonderful south america
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
I assume they were trespassing and when told to leave, the people of the village didn't think they were leaving.
I didn't get that at all from the story, but I could see the possible expectation of some sort of overnight parking fee getting out of hand.

Spin it all however you want. There wasn't a problem until some Peruvians decided they wanted the American's money.

Asking for documents is simply the first step in extortion. You often end up buying them back for no real reason, even from the police and military. They were prudent to not give them up, but who knows what else happened.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
I've run into more than a few malditos in Central America with no ill affects. I've found that a smile, confidence, deference, an awareness of your surroundings, and a sharp look in your eye keeps you safe in most cases, even if your Spanish is mas o menos.

All that said, the party concerned had driven through Latin America for several months. I'm guessing that they had a good understanding of where they were and a decent handle on the language.

It seems like an extortion gone very wrong. Plain and simple.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Maybe I shouldn't have pulled up this thread as I'm in the San Francisco airport flying to Delhi.

Generalizations based on somebody's bad experience are often limited. During my time living in Yosemite, it's been one of the safest places from crime around and disease is far from a worry.

Yet around the times that poor gal was beheaded in Foresta, and lately after the headlines proclaimed Hanta Virus, people sent me messages as if I were living in Dante's inferno!

Yes there are Hells everywhere in each country.

One thing I don't buy much about any country, that there are neigborhood where everyone is accepting of mass beating and robbery for the sake of greed. That's unlikely.

But there are mass standards where people take mass offense. I'm told in India, if you accidentally hit somebody in your car, you better just get out of there because it's very possible the locals will beat you up as a matter of course.

Peace

karl
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
Hypocrites . Some go vacationing in countries that are in utter turmoil like most in South America, and Mexico- sipping the margaritas in touristaville while 30 miles away lie fifty fresh dead bodies from the latest cartel moves. Or some go "hiking" on a border of two countries at war then whine that your in the shyt. I have a friend that has a lot down on the beach -pacific side and even he is having difficulty going down there as bribe costs have risen dramatically. Yes he has to bribe his way through the various locales controlled by banditos most likely cartel wings.

Ron, when was the last time you were in Central or South America?

Or, are you just pretending to have a first hand knowledge of how things are 'down there'?

Armchair knowledge gets you nowhere other than deeper into your armchair.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
When we were down in South America Bolivia, Columbia, Brazil and Peru it wasn't until we got into Peru that we started getting problems.

The fuking Peruvians were thieves and we constantly were getting ripped off.

We had to constantly guard and watch our stuff.

We needed body guards in one area with machine guns to protect us from the cocaine cartel.

Those cocaine cartel fukers blew up all the bridges in that area.

When we landed at the small air strip we had to have military protection there also.

They will kill Americans in certain areas of Peru because the Americans were eradicating their drug fields with their "War on Drugs" program.

They hate Americans in certain areas, so beware.

Cuzco is relatively safe but outside the city you have to be careful of thieves, robbers and general fuk heads everywhere.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Well, no one down there messes with Donini......



Fund is currently over $17,000. Now they have enough to continue on to Argentina and onwards for more adventure while you all go back to work in dark offices. Woot! Good times.


"Nightmare in Peru
Posted on January 3, 2013 by adventureamericas

As many people are already aware, Jed and I and my sister in law, Jenny have been through a very traumatic experience here in Peru. I wanted to put this out there to first of all let everyone know that we are safe and recovering in Cusco. We have suffered injuries, but we will all be able to recover fully physically. Below is an account of the incident written up by Jenny to an agency who is set up to help travelers who experience violence abroad. We have yet to hear back from them. We have had a lot requests from people who want to help. We have a meeting with the tourist police, Cusco police, Consolate in Cusco and the police from the small town this afternoon. Based on what we learn from this, we will update you on ways you could help. Thank you for all your support and please share the story epecially to any travelers.



Hello,

My name is Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom. I am a US citizen, a resident of the state of Wyoming, currently visiting Cuzco, Peru and the surrounding areas and I am a victim of an act of extreme violence towards myself, my brother (Joseph Palmer Wolfrom III), and my sister in law (Meghan Moore Doherty). Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred from December 29 to December 30, 2012. I flew into Cuzco, Peru on December 22, 2012 to meet my brother and his wife for a 10-day vacation. We stayed in Cuzco for a few days and then went into the mountains to hike a portion of the Asungate Mountain trek. We were in the mountains from December 25 to December 29.



On December 29, 2012, we left the mountains to drive back to Cuzco and towards our next destination of Macchu Picchu. It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous, so we pulled down a dirt road to camp in the camper on the back of their truck. We pulled into a flat spot near a bridge in the village of Pallcca in the region of Ocongate, Peru at about 6:30 PM. We were drinking two beers between the three of us because it was my 30th birthday and we were celebrating. We were almost immediately approached by two village residents, who were friendly and who we asked if it was ok to park and camp where we had. They said yes. Soon, the two men were blowing whistles and using their cell phones to alert their friends of our presence and many more village residents started gathering around us, including the man who they called the Presidente. We recognized that he was the leader of the community and Meghan asked him directly if we could camp there and he said Yes. We were soon surrounded by indigenous village people who started asking us to give them our documents. We refused to show them our documents as they weren´t Policia and we were getting nervous about their pushiness and decided to leave. We told them we would leave and got into the truck. They wouldn´t let my brother shut his door and started picking up rocks. Joseph finally got his door shut and we drove off quickly in the opposite direction of where we came hoping that the road would lead us away.



The road ended at a school about 10 minutes after we started driving. There was a man there and we asked him if we could camp and he said no, so we had to turn around and start driving back towards where we first encountered the mob. Soon we were approached by two motor bikes coming from the village and many people on foot. They started approaching the vehicle and we asked them if we could please leave. They said they would not let us leave and then started throwing rocks at the truck and building a rock blockade on the road in front of us. We drove over the first blockade and there were villagers up on the hill above the road continuing to throw rocks at the truck. They threw a large rock through the passenger window, breaking it and hitting me in the face and cutting my jaw. They also threw a rock through the driver’s side window, hitting my brother. We soon were met with another large road blockade of boulders that we could not drive through. At this blockade they threw rocks at the windshield and destroyed it. We veered off the road to try to drive around the blockade and got stuck in a huge ditch and could not drive anymore. We were being bombarded with rocks and had to escape from the vehicle. We had two cans of bear spray between the three of us so we used that in self-defense to be able to get out of the truck to start running from the village. We got out of the truck and started running and were immediately attacked by villagers who were throwing rocks at our heads and chasing us with blinding flashlights and sticks. It very much seemed like a planned organized attack with each of the villagers blowing whistles signaling other villagers to come out and join the chase. There were at least 30 people chasing us and throwing rocks at us at one point. We were running for our lives for between 30 minutes to an hour through the village hills and rivers. We were each struck multiple times by rocks in the head and all over our bodies. We eventually were surrounded by villagers who continued to beat us until they decided to bring us back to the Presidente of the village. We were forced to walk back to meet the Presidente where we pleaded with him to let us go. At this point we were all bleeding severely from our heads and Joseph´s front teeth were knocked out and his eye blundered shut by a rock. It was raining and freezing and my brother had lost a shoe running through a river. After a long discussion between the villagers and the presidente, he demanded that we be forced to walk about a mile in the freezing rain back up to the village school. We told them that we would just leave and they could have all of our stuff, but they would not let us leave. During that time I was beaten in the head with a large board, Meghan was kicked in her back extremely hard, and rocks continued to be thrown at us.



At the village school we were initially surrounded by at least 40 of the men, women, and children of the village who all addressed the Presidente with their ideas of what they wanted to do with us. Many of the women and men were screaming that they wanted the village to kill us. We kept apologizing, pleading, and explaining ourselves in Spanish, but they would not listen and started to whip us with the ropes that they use to whip their animals. We were whipped and beaten for a few hours in between sessions of interrogation. They told us that we should have given them our documents, but we explained that typically we did not give non-official policia our documents. Many of the villagers were angry about us using the bear spray (mace), but we explained that it was self-defense and we only used it after being attacked with rocks and barricaded, forcing us to crash the truck. We told them we had been very scared when they attacked us in the truck with rocks and we apologized over and over for the miscommunication. During this time at the school we were forced to separate and they stripped us of our possessions on our persons which included my iPhone 5, my brother and sister in law´s driver´s licenses and debit cards. After a few hours of standing in the freezing rain, being whipped by villagers numerous times, and screamed at in their local language, we continued to plead for our lives, shivering and bleeding, and they eventually shut us inside the school. We again apologized and pleaded to leave without any of our belongings.



After less than an hour of being shut in the school, we were again brought out to circle of villagers of over 33 people (I counted at least 33 people that I could see but there were many in the back ground- including young children). We immediately saw that there were at least three villagers that had at least three guns, one that we know was a 20 or 12 gauge shot gun. We tried to shield ourselves from the guns and again pleaded for them not to kill us. We were forced into the middle of the circle by men holding whips and we were held at gun point while again the villagers addressed the Presidente with their stories and ideas for our lives. At least one gun shot was shot towards us in the circle. The man with the 20 or 12 guage shot gun seemed to be an unofficial police or security guard for the village. We told him our story and spent another few hours in the middle of the circle while they decided what to do with us. It was at this point that lights were shined on our injuries and the villagers could see the extent of their violent acts. There was more discussion between the villagers and we were whipped again, with my brother taking most of the beating while trying to protect us. This last portion of the village gathering was photographed and recorded by many of the villagers. They were shining bright lights in our eyes, blinding us and taking pictures of our bloody faces and bodies, and recording the conversations on their phones. After another period of conversation and pleading, we were led to a table where we saw that they had written up their version of a story that they wanted us to sign for the police. Their accident report, written in Spanish, essentially said that we had been drinking and crashed our car, which is how the car got destroyed and how we got our injuries. However, the extent of our injuries and the condition of the car far surpasses anything that could happen by driving into a grassy ditch. They also pulled out all of our legal documents that they had stolen from the car, showed us they had them, and then confiscated them again. They still possess these documents.



We were convinced that the only way we would survive was to sign the report and assure the villagers that we would tell the police that it was a car accident that caused the damage to the truck and the injuries to our bodies. Once we convinced them that we would go along with their story, they had us sign the document and ink print our fingerprints. At around 5 am, after nearly 11 hours of being attacked, chased, beaten, whipped, and held at gun point without food, sleep, or water, we were led back to the truck. All of the windows and the windshield of the truck had been broken and the camper had been broken into and all of our belongings and documents were either stolen or thrown into the muddy ditch. We were told to wait for the police before we tried to get our truck out of the ditch. There were at least 15 villagers that stood with us at the truck until the police came. These villagers made us keep telling them that we would tell the police that it was an accident. At about 6:00 am, a man came who claimed he was the police and asked us to tell him what happened. He was clearly not a real policeman so we told him the same story that was written in the report to satisfy the villagers who were watching closely over us. This man tried to convince us to go back to the school to use a phone to call the hospital, but we refused because we felt it would bring another attack on our lives. At about 7:30 am four Policia National came to the scene of the accident. We told them the same story about crashing our truck and the policemen very clearly did not believe it. The Policia National took photos of every aspect of the accident, including the condition of the truck, the scene of the accident which very clearly shows the boulder barricade that the village set up to trap us, and close-up photos of our head injuries. The policemen helped us get our truck unstuck and we were escorted out in police vehicles at around 8:00 am. We were met by an ambulance that we were told was going to transport us to the city of Cuzco, which is what we wanted as there is better medical care there and we would feel much safer there as it was further away from the village. The police had told us that they would escort the ambulance to the city of Cuzco and would drive our truck to Cuzco so that we could get it fixed. Meanwhile, on the way out of the village that we were attacked in, the police picked up a truckload of villagers who could have very well been part of our attack and brought them along with them to the same town they were escorting us to. We felt extremely unsafe.



That morning of December 30, 2012, we were brought to the town of Ocongate, Peru and asked to get out of the ambulance. We said no, that we wanted to go to Cuzco and they told us they had to clean our wounds in the Ocongate medical clinic and then we would be brought to Cuzco. While we were being treated in Ocongate, which included about 100 stitches between the three of us (most of these stitches addressing head injuries), we kept requesting to be taken to Cuzco by either the police or the ambulance. The story kept changing and soon it became apparent that we were not going to be taken to Cuzco. We had asked in the clinic to be connected to someone at the US Embassy and finally a member of the policia connected us to Amy Bakal at the US Consulate in Cuzco. We explained our situation to Amy and told her we felt very unsafe in the town that we were in. We then found a translator and had the translator tell the policia our exact account of what happened. Once we had been able to tell our story to the US Consulate and to the policia national, we started getting better treatment and were eventually taken from the medical clinic to the police station where they fed us and allowed us to get clothes out of the truck to change into as we had been sitting in bloody, muddy, wet clothing for almost 24 hours at that point. We signed an initial police report that was written by the policia national in the Spanish language in the town of Ocongate. We have copies of this police report. We left the town of Ocongate at 6:30 pm and were brought by the policia national to Cuzco. We were promised by the mayor of the village that our truck would be brought to Cuzco after the investigation by the policia. However, when we met the consulate that night in Cuzco, our policia national escorts told the consulate that they would not be driving the truck to Cuzco.



The past few days, which should have been a time for us to mentally process what happened and regain strength, have been almost as tiring as the attack itself. We have spent at least 10 – 12 hour each day in different medical clinics being examined since we were not brought to the correct medical facility in Cuzco immediately after the attack. Without the truck we have had to take taxi cabs from each medical clinic, one which we were mandated to visit by the police which was an hour outside of the city we are currently staying in. We have not been able to eat properly as all of our time has been waiting for and meeting with doctors and trying to figure out how to access our money since all but one of our debit cards were stolen. We are staying in an overpriced hotel that is supposed to give us breakfast, but has refused serving us each morning. With all of our time spent in more important areas we have had not time to look for a different place to stay.





We spent yesterday, December 31, meeting with the Amy at the US Consulate and getting medical treatment at the Clinica San Jose in Cuzco, Peru. This treatment included checking our stitches and bruises, x-rays for my sister in law, and a cat scan for my brother. We were prescribed antibiotics and pain killers by the doctor. My brother will also need extensive dental work as four of his front teeth are either knocked out or severely damaged.



We have an appointment to meet with a legal doctor tomorrow, January 2, 2013, who will examine our injuries in order to be used in court testimonies. We are meeting with the police from Ocongate, the police from Cuzco, and Amy Bakal with the US Consulate on Thursday, January 3, to submit an official statement for the police report. I was supposed to fly back to the United States tomorrow, January 2, 2013, morning, but my passport, license, and all my money and debit cards were stolen during the attack. After the attack, I do not feel comfortable traveling alone to Lima to get to the Embassy so my brother and sister in law be will be accompanying me up to Lima after we make our statements to the police on Thursday over the weekend so that I can get my emergency passport and fly back to the United States early next week.



This situation has not only been extremely traumatic both mentally and physically, but has also become a huge financial burden for the three of us. We had thousands of dollars of possessions stolen from us during the attack, our medical bills and money spent on prescriptions as well as taxi cab travel and hotel bills are growing, the damage to the truck is extensive and will be costly, the cost of replacing my passport and changing my plane ticket will be in the hundreds of dollars, and I am missing an extra week of work pay because of the need to meet with the police and then the embassy to replace my passport before I can leave the country.



A list of our tangbile stolen possessions and their approximate value is below.

Jennifer Wolfrom’s stolen possessions:

Canon Rebel Ti1 DLSR camera, wide angle DSLR lens, two lens filters and three 8 or 16 GB photo cards = $2,000
iPhone 5 = $600
Alps Mountaineering Four Season two person backpacking tent = $250
Women’s Patagonia Primaloft Nano Puff jacket = $200
Women’s Outdoor Research rain jacket = $150
Out Door Research snow gators = $120
Big Agnes Dual Core Primaloft sleeping pad = $200
700 Peruvian Soles = $350
Women’s La Sportiva mountaineering boots = $400
Princeton Tech Head Lamp = $40
US Passport = $140
Driver’s license = $25
Camelback Cloud day back pack = $80
Miscellaneous clothing = $200
Debit and Credit cards

Total: $4,755



Joseph Wolfrom and Meghan Doherty’s stolen possessions:

Women’s garmont mountaineering boots = $400
iPod = $300
Sony Vaio Lap Top and software = $4,000
Men’s Patagonia Nano Puff jacket = $200
5 gallon gas can and 5 gallons of gas = $120
Extensive First Aid Kit = $100
Men’s La Sportiva climbing shoes = $120
Garmin GPS = $300
Native polarized sunglasses = $100
Miscellaneous clothing = $300

Total: $5,940



We are unsure what the total costs of the following will be, but they are sure to be extensive:

Food, lodging, and transportation in Cuzco, Peru for an extra week
Airfare to the US Embassy in Lima, Peru for passport replacement
Food and lodging in Lima, Peru for the duration of the passport replacement process
Repairs to extensive damage to the Toyota Tacoma truck and Phoenix Pop-up camper
Medical and Dental bills for injuries acquired during the attack
Possible mental health expenses regarding trauma from the attack
Possible expense of towing the Toyota Tacoma from Ocongate to Cuzco if the policia will not drive the truck to Cuzco as promised



While we are working with the US Consulate and Embassy, as well as the Policia National of Peru, we are currently seeking financial and emotional support from any resources that are available to us. Please let me know what next steps need to be taken to apply for your support services and determine our eligibility. Additionally, if you know of any other resources that could be available to us we would greatly appreciate any advice and guidance.



Thank you,

Jennifer Wolfrom"
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
I would have zero fears of visiting this village.

Me neither. In a gun truck.

LOL!!

Something like this sounds about right...

Armored SWAT truck is a bullet-proof, blast resistant rolling bunker


Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Hey Riley, slow your roll.

Jebus comes off as intelligent, articulate, and moderate.

Lighten up a little bud. :)

I'm not being a dick, but sometimes the stress and the long shifts your work requires translates into you posting negative stuff. I've seen it...
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Sorry Riley.. but I don't buy your interpretation of the facts.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Fund is currently over $17,000. Now they have enough to continue on to Argentina and onwards for more adventure while you all go back to work in dark offices. Woot! Good times.


LOL !!!!!!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Something stinks here....

I could see maybe asking or needing help getting back home.

$17,000?

WTF?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
And yes - I have travelled more than you can probably imagine.
You can take up a collection for me to fly to Peru anytime - I will be happy to go..

just listen to riley............the biggest most arrogant blowhard that ever posted on the taco.


why the hell dont you guys get this?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
When we were down in South America Bolivia, Columbia, Brazil and Peru it wasn't until we got into Peru that we started getting problems.

The fuking Peruvians were thieves and we constantly were getting ripped off.

We had to constantly guard and watch our stuff.

We needed body guards in one area with machine guns to protect us from the cocaine cartel.

Those cocaine cartel fukers blew up all the bridges in that area.

When we landed at the small air strip we had to have military protection there also.

They will kill Americans in certain areas of Peru because the Americans were eradicating their drug fields with their "War on Drugs" program.

They hate Americans in certain areas, so beware.

Cuzco is relatively safe but outside the city you have to be careful of thieves, robbers and general fuk heads everywhere.

the second blowhard award goes to................
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
Hawkeye, you're simply singling out people who disagreed with you on other threads.

Give it a rest and contribute something useful to the thread.

It would be a first, and I'm sure we'd be astounded by your concise assertions.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
just whose fields were these folks camping by?

more female guides -

vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
So what happened to the climbing gear? The post here and on MP labels these people as climbers.

Are there threads on Cascades or bicyling or backpacker or travel forums?

This story and shopping list makes me think that this girl thinks that Americans should be rescued by Bill Clinton and have all new American possessions waiting for them when they get back home.

4k for a laptop?? Sheeesh

Why not list 30k for a Toyota. Just leave that beater behind. Don't ship it back.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
John - they were drinking and driving on the road that dead ended at a school and refused to show their identification - it is not an interpretation - it's the facts as represented by the not very bright plaintiff.

Two whole beers between the three of them and they didn't start driving until they were threatened.

You related to this lady?

http://gma.yahoo.com/former-cop-accused-faking-duis-021947523--abc-news-topstories.html

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
"if ya cant beat em join em"
or the local Peruvian Flake version, "if you can't join them, beat them."



Vajayjay, I posted the whole thing (on P 5!) as the link wasn't working for me and I also put it here for posterity, so that if that link or the text is gone we can all reflect on it and remember the truth later at our leisure.

Prod

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
I can't find anything in any news wire about this.

Prod.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
any time you step across the border you are on your own,

even tiajuana can be dangerous on a bad night,

frickin savage pigmies, i would go back down and clean out those toothless midgets with an AK, jus sayin, a pigmy has got to know his limitations, do you feel lucky today pigmy? well do ya? nice peacock outfit pigmy, and your beer ain't bad,know you gonna die!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Gee, who coulda predicted this would turn into a pissing contest?

If those people had rolled like the Germans we met in Ushuaia they
wouldn't have had no probs!



APC, baby. Bring it!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Whoh, best question de jour.
vininja

Social climber
NJ

Jan 4, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
So what happened to the climbing gear? The post here and on MP labels these people as climbers.


They did have climbing adventures. You'd think that the villagers could have used the ropes, even if pickets or deadmen were not needed to tie up their donkeys or they weren't in the gear stash to begin with. Maybe she forgot to list all the gear? Maybe the gear wasn't stolen?
Prod

Trad climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
I'll be glad to kick the sh#t out of anyone of you..anytime,,just say the word

Can you go after Locker for losing my shoes?

Prod.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Seriously Riley. Chill, man.

Breathe, we are all here because we are climbers.

No more threatening to meet someone in a dark alley and beat their ass, OK?

You're way better than that.

Pick a place to travel to next year or this fall, and I'm in. It'd be cool to tie in with you after all these years of Internet friendship.

Best,
Brandon
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Cavaet.. I did not read the first link. I can't get it to work. I read the second link.


I'm still not buying your interpretation Riley. Its not that I 100 percent accept their story. I don't. I thnk they mishandled it, but I also think their mishandling of it didn't need to end with them getting the sh#t kicked out of them nor their truck destroyed.

The lady who wrote the report is obviously traumatized. You have no way of knowing just what happened, but you seem to be automatically on the side of the villagers. I'm not. I'm not on either side. I tend to lean towards this being a village shakedown that went wrong and probably could have ended with just a bribe.

Just as a reminder.. the woman who wrote the report y'all are reading is not the two who were traveling down their extensively. It was the visiting sister who was only there for 10 days. Who knows what the other two will say.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
You're way better than that.

uhhh, looks like NOT better than that. Maybe should read, You "CAN" be better than that. I know that's what I'd think of Riley. Don't let folks get yer goat dude.

Ifn ya have a goat.....




Brandon says "Chill".

Brandons got it right.
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
I've spent a fair amount of time in that part of Peru. I felt lots of tension outside of the tourist-frequented parts of the area - the local campesinos I talked to were angry about getting impacted by tourism but getting no benefit from the tourism dollars. They felt like foreigners, wealthy business people, and people in the government were getting rich while they were getting the shaft, and I can't say there are wrong about that. I changed my plans to continue on to the Lake Titicaca area after seeing protests in Cuzco, and was glad I did - villagers rioted and lynched the mayor of a town near Titicaca as I was traveling back to Lima.

I've traveled really extensively both driving and via public transport in Central and South America with no real problems, but my trouble radar has never gone off as much as it did in the Cuzco region outside of the usual Cuzco/Machu Picchu circuit. I think these people are leaving a lot out of their account and the tone in which they are soliciting money really makes me question their judgement, but it is easy to imagine how a bad situation can escalate in that area.

Some of the fear and xenophobia on display in this thread is really embarrassing.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Darwin awards to those who think it smart to be-bop around in third worlds.

You built your end of days bomb shelter yet Ron?

Come on man. Its not that bad. Just like America.. there are parts you need to be aware of, and parts that are very safe.

One thing though.. all the shuffling around by the authorities is pretty common. You have to learn to stand up for yourself.
burntheman

Trad climber
slt
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Add in a little showing off something locals couldn't afford in 8 lifetimes:

what a mid 90's toyota tacoma with a modest pop up camper?.. for driving to the tip of south america. should they have taken something more modest and reliable like a 60s ford econoline?

"After a year and half of relentless searching we finally found our baby, an extremely beat up Toyota Tacoma TRD with a great motor and only 130,000 miles all for $ 4,400"


you guys are unf*#kingbelievable.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Where are Anastasia's boobs when we need them. Calm down boys.... ha

I can totally relate to the victim's situation and experience. I hate to see people picking on them now. I've traveled a bunch (years actually) in India and a good bit in Mexico and South America. I try to cut a pretty low profile, but still, I have a tone of "rich people shit" with me all the time. Phones, tablets, expensive sleeping bags and tents and stoves, bicycles, and if I'm climbing then climbing equipment. That's what we do, we travel with our expensive toys and look for adventures. Been there and done that, and I certainly can't criticize it in itself.

But then look at the world through other people's eyes. Their kids don't have shoes, their newborns die for lack of $5 of medicine. They are uneducated and undernourished. And in comes a gaggle of gringos with many thousands of dollars worth of TOYS. That really is what our equipment is. Anyway, there is naturally going to be some tension in the situation. And there is always a few teenage boys around who could care sh#t about "Christian values" taught them by their grandparents. Hell, just grab some of that good sh#t.

To me the whole world is just f*#ked, and when you go to the third world you're getting a bit closer to the simmering anger. With good karma you meet only peaceful and content peasants. With even a little bad karma you may run into some angry peasants.

I friend of mine - 67 year old itinerant yoga teacher - rode his bicycle from California heading to Usuia (southern tip of Argentina). Got his bike nicked in Lima. ha Maybe there is some truth to the rumors about Peru in particular.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Sounds like we need to be donating to the villagers who need it more Rocker. Looks like it may be possible that the travelers have more $ tied up in clothing alone than the entire village makes annually.


I've only recently been able to afford those kind of coats myself so I do recognize the value. Never been able to quit work and do this kind of a trip, but there's still hope. Regardless, I don't mean to harsh anyone's buzz and wish them well. Probably worth less till they can get the blood cleaned off anyway.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
ohn, my main point being TRAVEL AMERICA now-- it needs ALL the help it can get. Especially now..
Thats fine Ron.. and good sentiment. But you don't need to encourage it by trying to make others think that no place but america is safe to travel. That just isn't true. That was my only protest to what you said.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Where is the OP on this one... Starting to smell a rat...

Riley you seem cool, so does Jeebs. I enjoy your commentary except when you start calling people names. It's hard for people to listen when they don't feel respected..
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
To avoid a country as huge and rich geographically as Peru based on a single such incident smacks of racism

racism? really? so i'd be racist against who if i avoid going to a third world country?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
rockermike, this thread is longer a place for reasoned discourse. Please start a new one.

Thanks for the perspective.

FWIW, Lima is the only place Ive been hassled in this world. Just my 2-peso anecdote.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
The blog has an update posted today:

Peru Update and Gratitude
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
I'm headed to Central America in a week. I'll be travelling by bus and thumb.

I'm pretty sure I'll be just fine.

I realize it's not South America, but it has it's dangers as well. Not worried.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
dentists are cheap all over - except in rich countries. ha
Indian curbside dentist office

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ol-RyYnTD4
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Ron, that was proven to be a hoax.

Check your facts man.
WBraun

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Looks like a good dentist.

He only takes the money if you're happy.

Americans are such stupid pussies and need a fancy dentist chair ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Brandon, be carefull on those buses down there.

You can run into doods like this guy!
He was soo ready to throw it down. Or was that up?
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
I wouldn't think Peru is going to reimburse them, I'd focus on getting out of there fast and recovering with family.

In fact the bill for medical treatment will be delivered to the U.S. embassy who will pay it. Or should I say you and I will pay it.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
I dunno, this is reading more and more like a Nigerian-esque scam...
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
HEY,


When is the right time to get travel insurance/rescue insurance??



https://www.globalrescue.com/


Between AAC, credid cards, health insurance, DAN for scuba, AAA, ETC......

I am covered for pretty much anything that could happen at home and internationally.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Hey Ron, this is what I was thinking of, is it the same story you were referencing?

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newly-released-photos-of-uncontacted-amazon-indian-tribe-give-us-a-glimpse-of-another-world?lite
Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Was this Quechua Indians?
Give Peruvians a break.
Two different peoples there.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Facebook Peru would be a place to look to find posts made by the attacking villagers who were using their cell phones to take pictures.

One of these days, after a few more glasses of pisco, one of those criminals will decide its a good idea to post images of bleeding Americans being whipped and stoned.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
A former friend of mine tried to throw the same jibes you are attempting, Riley, instinctively assuming the ugly American waded into the situation. I could only laugh later when he was held up at machete point. Karma's a bitch

Laugh it up jebus, I bet your homecoming after that trip was a real huckleberry.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
I'm more cautious when I pull down a dirt road in the Western US... always pointing the vehicle in a direction with multiple exits... always with everything in order to hasten my escape in case some uneducated redneck wants to start sh#t like they used to do in UT/ID.

I can't imagine pulling down an unknown dirt road in Peru with a fancy rig like that, sipping a beer, and not being prepared to flee at the drop of a hat.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Maybe I shouldn't have pulled up this thread as I'm in the San Francisco airport flying to Delhi.

Karl, I'm super jealous. Is this your final destination? I dont know if you've been there before but Dehli was way too overcrowded and chaotic for me. India has pickpockets and very aggressive scammers, but no one will lay a finger on you. Never mind the recent gang rape on a bus, ahem.

I dream of the day when I have 2 solid months to disappear from work. I'd see more of India, but spend most of it in Nepal. Paradise on earth on more ways than one.
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Looks like this couple was on a great road trip. Till it went bad.

6000 miles of road tripping to the south.

Doesn't really look like these people are hurting for money when they tossed out $20,000 on a truck to start with.

http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com

After a year and half of relentless searching we finally found our baby, an extremely beat up Toyota Tacoma TRD with a great motor and only 130,000 miles all for $ 4,400. Spent nearly $3,000 replacing, fixing and beefing up the rig. Today we got the first glimpse of our new Phoenix pop-up camper and it is AWESOME! ($??,???)

http://phoenixpopup.com/floor-plans/
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
..but no different than I would in South Central LA.

I've spent quite a bit of time working in the streets in South Central Los Angeles. Met lots of nice folks there, living in tidy well kept neighborhoods. Your stereotypes are often off base, Ron. Maybe you shouldn't be living in Bumf*#k Egypt, Nevada. It might open your mind to get out into the real world.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Has Luke Stong been seen in Peru?
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
Ahhahahaha... yes, I'm still laughing. Backstabber POS gets Karmic lesson at the end of a knife. Life is good (and sometimes fair), thanks for checking in ;).

That must feel good.

I must confess the word Karma popped into my head when but a month after you posted on the taco how when you hear someone died soloing, you hoped it was me, you proceeded to rap off your rope and break your back... while drunk.

Hope you get out of the body cast soon.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
maybe it was a bunch of rock throwing howler monkeys,

but how could you tell the difference?

not by the smell, thats fo sizzle my bizzle,

no wait, monkeys have teeth,

maybe those savages never seen a white man before, best to put on some shoe polish and grow a mustache,
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Jenny: We are not flashy people and we had just come from a four-day backpacking trip. We were basically in jeans and hiking boots. The truck that Meghan and Jed drive is a 1998 Tacoma with many dents, holes, and a lot of rust. Not something you would typically look at and translate into wealth.

Wow. They're from Jackson Hole, too?

These sound like the kind of people who would get their asses kicked just about anywhere.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
OK, the dude's teeth got knocked out; $10K for quality implants.
The woman didn't get raped; she should consider herself lucky.
The truck got dinged; BFD. You got schooled so let Daddy pay for yer
schooling, like he probably already did. You weren't on a bus in India.
Move on like big first world kiddies and buy yer own damn iPhone.
caughtinside

Social climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
No, don't have much else for you Jebus. Amusing watching you post all sorts of travel advice based on your lifetime one month out of the country... which you spent entirely in Potrero Chico.

Good luck with rehab.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
My experience says;
Don't travel/drive at night.
Do your homework, ie, know the villages/roads/political micro-climate of your route and over-nights.
Hire a guide.
Rent a car/truck there. Take public transportation.
Don't travel with your electronics/computers/whatever. Small digital to record your trips are easily kept out of sight while in towns ect..
Don't drink in public, except in a cafe /restaurant.
Don't be naive."Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred" It takes just one village idiot, on one bad night, to ruin your trip.
Always carry copies of your docs, never hand over the originals.
Always have the contact info for your Government representatives plugged into a LOCALLY RENTED phone with plenty of time on it.
Always remember, you are not in Kansas anymore. Not even in the first world. You are a long way from anywhere and must be ever vigilant and very low key.
And on and on....Even then, bad things happen to good people. These kind of things happen all over the third world. There were a lot of mitigating factors at work here; including plain bad luck. I feel for these folks. My observations are based on 12 years of travel to South America and specifically to Peru around Cuzco and up north around Huaraz and the Andes. Including a drive from Veracruz, Mexico to Panama City, Panama in Jan, 1983, during and through at least 3 shooting wars in Central America. My experience has been always been uniformly positive in dealing with locals, Quechua, and Campesinos. My heart goes out to these very unfortunate folks.
TY
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Thanks Tony.. I appreciate your perspective.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 4, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
Hopefully the Policia mow down everyone in that entire area with machine guns. You can't fuk with US citizens like that, even if they come to your village/hood uninvited. We have rights gawd damn it!

I wonder if (brown) foreigners wouldn't get similar treatment if they pulled down a dirt road leading to a small village in Alabama or Aridzona and started doing their thing as if they were right at home.


I've always tried to follow basically what TYeary said. I find it a pain in the ass, so I don't travel as much as others. But when I hear about this kind of stuff, I'm not too surprised. Hell, we had our window broken in, covered with glass, and tear gassed by the CRS in France of all places. If the guy driving hadn't flown across the earthen divider and hightailed it out of there, almost hitting some of the crowd, things could have been much worse.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
So much bickering and arguing.

People are strange and at times mean everywhere you go.

This one time, I watched a Tico smoke crack and then go into his one room apartment and start jerking off.

I wasn't smoking crack and bailed immediately.

Sometimes things in other countries are too strange and different to comprehend.

prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
I wonder if (brown) foreigners wouldn't get similar treatment if they pulled down a dirt road leading to a small village in Alabama or Aridzona and started doing their thing as if they were right at home.

in Aridzona it would be much worse but it would be "brown" people doing the hitting and kicking.
Brian

climber
California
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
I guess my question is: Why didn't the US Consulate get them to the US Embassy ASAP?

Having spent a good deal of time abroad, and having been in contact with US consular officials in various developing nations, I would seriously consider running for the Canadian or UK embassy in a crisis in hopes they'd cover me...

Apologies to all the US State Department officials out there who are, no doubt, doing a good job. I've just had some bad experience....

Brian
neverwas

Mountain climber
ak
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Just an unrelated anecdote, but a buddy and I were confronted by an angry bunch of villagers in Ecuador after a several day outing to climb the Sangay volcano in the late 70's. My understanding is that there was talk of creating a national park or the like in the area, and they probably viewed us as part of that movement to limit use or access to their land. No violence occurred, no comparison to this event, but it was scary and we were relieved to climb onto the bus and get away from there.
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 07:46pm PT



the tone of this official travel advice makes me want to stay the f out of peru

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/south-america/peru1


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Hmm, the thread title says help climbers.
I haven't seen anything climby related in all this.
Not that it really matters much, just sorta curious.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Always have the contact info for your Government representatives plugged into a LOCALLY RENTED phone with plenty of time on it.

Over the top. Your head is so far in the sand over this.

I have some similar travel advice to those considering visiting a sewer: Wear rubber boots, waders and a mask - and no matter what everyone says, don't eat the chocolate covered truffles.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
the tone of this official travel advice makes me want to stay the f out of peru

From your link..


Around 56,000 British tourists visit Peru every year. Most visits are trouble free. Fifty British nationals required consular assistance in Peru in the period April 2011 - March 2012, including for three deaths, 11 hospitalisations and 17 arrests.



I wonder what the statistics are for 56000 Britains in England.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
neverwas - Ecuador did create a park around the Sangay volcano. This was one of my first trips to South America, about 20 years ago. After getting guided up cotopaxi, I asked a backpacker travel guide where to go to get away from the tourists, and she put me on a plane to Macas, the town near to Sangay, populated by the Shuar, traditional headhunters. When I arrived I immediately met some guys who said they were on a UNESCO mission and invited me to come along. The deal was, I paid for their gas and they let me ride in the back of their pickup truck and gave me a fun tour.

My spanish was not good at the time, and it took a few days before I understood our mission. We would hike into the Sangay park (technically a tiger preserve, paid for by the UN, who pays the govt not to develop it) and follow reports of settlements, then tell the colonists they had to leave. People just go into the jungle there, plant corn and start homesteading. The Ecuadorans had to kick the colonists out to keep the UN money flowing.

Several years later, I returned to Ecuador and found that my friend from UNESCO had taken a job with an oil company, and his job was public relations with the locals. I was seriously disappointed in him.

Sangay itself is a perfect cone of a volcano, but doesnt get climbed much because it's extremely active. Normally covered in glaciers, but you can see pictures of when it erupts and all the ice melts off. Another thing to know, is that hardly anyone there speaks Spanish (they speak Shaur, Achaur, Quecha etc) so you really do need a guide.
John M

climber
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Over the top. Your head is so far in the sand over this.

Whats your problem? Tony is a decent person. You don't have to attack everyone just because the tone of this thread has deteriorated.
Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
Been to Peru twice. Pretty fantastic mountain scenery. If this was Quechua Indians, which it probably was, then it doesn't really surprise me. Poverty definitely oppresses their spirits. Extremely poor and uneducated. They have this amazing history in the Sacred Valley near Cusco and smart and wealthy Peruvians are making all the money. They are amazing weavers, some of the best on the planet, yet they seemed quite suppressed from the Peruvian Government and people. I'd want an ipod too if I was living in an adobe house with pigs and my own sh*t. Lack of education with these people and a huge movement of tourism into their most sacred thing of all, their land.
Sorry about the beating. I would have fought back. There comes a point when you quit saying 'Im sorry can we go?' and you just GO! Before the guns come out, ya know.
andy@climbingmoab

Big Wall climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 4, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Sangay is a lot easier to get around nowadays. Take a bus to Riobamba and get a park permit at the park headquarters there. Then take some local buses to Alau. From there, hike up the road until it ends and then try not to get lost in the jungle - 3 days to the base of Sangay from Alau. I tried to go in there with skis but bailed halfway though after seeing how little snow was left on the mountain and how difficult getting skis through the jungle is. Fun hare-brained adventure anyway.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 4, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Thanks John M. I appreciate that. JLP, you're a funny guy! TY
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 4, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
7,519,001 Peruvians and others can't be wrong

Please, Please

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Read the first few pages, sounds like the perfect storm of impoverished resentful locals and (forgive me, Werner) stupid Americans, and (yup) women drivers.

Bear spray? Really?!! Yeah great, "Looks like we're cornered. Lets see if we can REALLY piss them off before they get us!"

Of course by then they had already made a series of compounding errors.

How about making a PLAN and using a map and convoying for security and maintaining condition yellow and mudding up the car and hiding the expensive gear and,... aw hell, I give up. Some people couldn't buy a clue with a stack of coin.

I don't even know what a Nano Puf is, but if I was a poor peasant then just for shlts and giggles I would likely chuck a rock at some stupid unarmed twit that had one.

Does it really go puff? Better question, with nobody dead and $16K+ in sympathy how many people learned lessons?
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Jan 4, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
they stripped us of our possessions on our persons which included my iPhone 5,
Bright modern outdoor clothing,bright packs and modern vehicles make you stick out like a sore thumb in any third world country.Traveling by bus and staying at lodgings in towns at night is a far safer way to travel. I admire their adventurous spirit and feel bad that this happened to them but I think they were quite naive and their style of travel made them vunerable.
A climber friend of mine who always wears the best arcteryx clothing and has the best gear took a cab from the Lima airport with a friend to head into the Andes for climbing. The driver obviously scoped them out with all the expensive gear and took them out in the boonies where he met up with an accomplice. They were robbed at gun point and at some point bolted for the bushes and were shot at. They lost everything but were not injured. When I travelled through India and Nepal I had a shitty old grey courdura pack and never wore flashy coloured clothing and had a dirtbag beard,never had a problem.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:01am PT



Did someone do something wrong?

Did someone do something right?

Some are more privileged.

Crazy Humanity!

What is tangible ?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:03am PT
I believe dental implants vary widely from location to location in the U.S.

If Joseph receives dental work in a resort area such as his hometown Jackson, WY the costs could be quite high for implants with an abutment and crown. Driving over the mountains into Rexburg, ID, he might procure a very competent dentist and significantly lower prices.

I received two broken front teeth but there was enough tooth left that I only required crowns. An Idaho dentist did both teeth for $2100 total and did very good work...of course with an implant and abutment beforehand, the combined price would have likely been more than double that sum.
Butch

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:00am PT
I read this horrible story yesterday when there were only a handfull of posts and I was dumbfounded. Wishing all the best for these three and if I could afford it I would send money. I came rushing back here after watching something on netflix ... just finished watching it not but 5 min ago... it struck such a nerve in me and made me think of this story I felt compelled to share my thoughts of why a community / village of men, women and even ...and even children would be part of such inhumane treatment of anyone...but more specifically Americans. As I read through a few posts by Rohod - Router, Riley Wyna , Crunch and others I thought I might be the only one to throw out my theory ... until the very last post I read by T*R ...Who I think nailed it. The movie I watched on Net Flix was "Coca Lives". Very eye opening on the failed drug wars that America imposes on another country with that "carrot on the stick called money" and who's lives it really destroys. Truly explained why a whole village armed with whistles and rocks would turn out to defend their lively hood An eye opening movie that should be watched. It may shed some light on what really was happening in this village.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:46am PT
"""For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys but I don’t think that will happen. Any ho carefull where you camp and I will fill you in on all the gory details latter. jed """"

Green beray? No I don't think it will happen either Jed. If you can't spell the name of their headgear, they won't go kill villagers for you.

Sheesh, this dude writes like a third grader.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 06:02am PT
Wow, quite disheartening to see quite a few of you armchair observers are awfully comfortable spewing criticism and judgement at the victims.

This situation was about as bad as it gets.

While climbing in Bolivia in 2004, there had been a number of similar incidences reported of mob villager attacks. These were not robberies, but large groups of villagers ambushing camping travelers, hurling rocks at them, burning their cars, hellbent on murder and destruction, with the victims running for their lives with only the shirts on their backs. In Sorata, a particularly scenic mountain town, a traveler's hotel was surrounded and the Bolivian army had to be called in to drive the villagers away, a few were killed.

While most travelers will never encounter situations like this, it is important to understand the potential of the evil that can appear and escalate out of control. These three are lucky to be alive.

Some areas have reputations of having hostile villagers and need to be given a wide berth.

No need to be paranoid or write entire countries off from your travel itinerary, but learn as much as you can and prepare for the worst and make prudent decisions.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:02am PT
Not having travelled to Peru, I cannot really comment on the land or people. But as there are two sides to every story (and then some), we have really only heard one side. I suspect, and this is total speculation that, reading the comments on this thread from those who have been there (with both good and bad experiences) that, as usual with many issues, the truth lies somewhere in between.

If I had the money I would contribute to their medical expenses, but not anything else, ie gear, iPhones, further travel (except back to the States), etc.

BUT...

What I can comment on is, like many threads, this one has deteriorated into name calling, and that is not nice. Keep it civil, keep it adult and keep it reasonable. That's my two cents worth.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:15am PT
This sort of crime can happen anywhere. I've had armed thugs bust into my home in the USA and threaten to kill me while they robbed my place. You don't see me writing trip reports about a viciously attacked climber.

I'm very sorry that anyone has to go through something like this. Sounds like their "innocence cherry" was busted badly. But if you travel into remote areas, you're taking risks and you gotta take responsibility for what happens to you.

We went caving along the Syrian border in March 2012, and we hired armed guards with AK-47s.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:48am PT
I agree with Fear and others, something stinks here, or at least doesn't seem "right". Now that I have read all of the comments to date and have read links and stories elsewhere Okay MP, and it is much the same). Maybe I am being cynical, but I see some sort of movie deal and books in the future for these people.

I just have to be objective and wonder how much of this story is true or at least factual.

And I agree that $17,000 is a lot of money to get back to the States.

I still see a movie deal and film rights in the future, whether these people did or didn't experience what they have written. As far as I can see, we only have their words for it. I'd like to see some sort of official report from either or both the US government or Peruvian authorities.

It would make a story/film that many Americans would buy the book or pay the cinema to see Americans being ill-treated in a far away land.

These people are asking for money from the public. If their claims are legit, so be it and best of luck to them. But...

I am not by nature a cynic, but something doesn't seem right with their story.

I am facing eviction if I do not get my back rent on time, in a house that I have made safe and secure for Jennie, pumping a lot of my money into it, but my landlord doesn't care.

Should I go online to one of these fund-raising sites? I was beat up by a bunch of leprechauns (little feckers) who stole my savings, and then... the Banshee showed up at my door. Shudder.

I am writing a book about it now.

Is the Peru story a scam of some sorts? Perhaps time will tell. If I had the money a) to hire somebody to look and care after Jennie for the needed time to b) travel to Peru and c) find a good interpreter/local to d) try and interview those in the village to e) try and ascertain what did happen, as well as interview, face to face the travelers involved, that would be something.

Marcellus: Something is rotten in the state of (Peru and/or the travellers' story).

EDIT

And I also agree why post the original 'story' midway through the thread when the link in the OP sufficed.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:09am PT
This thread is like a Rorshcach test for people's outlook on foreign travel, global inequality, shiny new gear etc. The level of prejudicial speculation is off the charts. I guess we'll have to see whatever version of the truth surfaces.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:13am PT
Rorshach? Darn Rhodo-Router, stop using big words, now I have to get my dictionary out. ;-)

I guess we'll have to see whatever version of the truth surfaces.

Being stuck at home as a full-time carer (I'd just as soon be out working), I have a lot of time on my hands and I have yet to come across any other version of the incident than what the travelers have written.

If somebody knows a link or article on the villagers' version, please post it.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:04am PT
If somebody knows a link or article on the villagers' version, please post it.
Head::InButt

If you find a version of this kind of story ever told on this planet during the history of man that doesn't basically sum up to wanting to take a richer man's money - please be sure to post it!
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:09am PT
I'm very sorry for what has happened to these folks, but it must be said that this type of a trip to Peru is exactly what to do if you want this kind of trouble.

To take your truck to Peru from the USA, and make the same kind of car camping trip that I make to the Valley, or southern Utah is pretty naive to begin with. Then to go to a remote location like the region they were in and just pull over on a dirt road to camp out would draw attention from the poverty-stricken locals. The locals were most likely attempting to simply rob them; the use of rock barricades to stop vehicles is a common tactic in robberies that I have heard about in numerous cases in Peru. This includes robberies that occurred in much less remote places than the Ausungate region. Then, fighting the locals by not giving up their documents, and spraying them with bear spray turned the situation into a desperate struggle to survive.

I have traveled in almost all the various regions of Peru in eleven trips I have made there. I have thought about avoiding a scenario like this many times, and these folks made all of the mistakes possible. Any experienced international traveler, who travels discretely and respectfully could have predicted the outcome of a journey such as this. Any person in Lima would have warned these folks against such a trip. I'm amazed that they were not killed.

With due respect, this is a story of how the "ugly" American travels around the world clueless of the local cultural and socioeconomic factors, and gets themselves in trouble only to hope that the local American consulate will bail them out of trouble (which it generally is not inclined to do.) Safe travel in these kind of poor places is done by making wise decisions; not idealistic itineraries. This situation says a lot more about the kind of travelers these folks are, than it does about traveling in Peru or other poor countries. They truly are lucky it did not end worse.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:16am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257577/Terror-American-family-brutally-attacked-traveling-Peru-villagers-whip-knock-teeth-rocks-shoot-them.html

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3370-report-three-american-tourists-brutally-attacked-in-cusco-province/


Hey JLP, I am just questioning the veracity of the story.

Head::InButt

No need to insult me. I have never dissed you and never will in all likelihood.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Latin America = giant sh#t hole.

In the best case, always having to think about how the next person is going to try to get your money and how you're going to try to prevent it - non-fuking stop 24/7 game until you're on a plane out of the country - it gets old.

No thanks - did some trips, saw everything I wanted to see, never going back.

No, Latin America is not a giant sh#t hold, nor is it a bunch of happy-go-lucky folks singing to guitars and taking siestas.

Like most of the world, Latin America is very poor. People that live outside of the major cities and towns have hostilities toward their central government, because they just cannot escape living in the dirt. (Yes, even with their cell phones). In some cases, Americans personify their view of injustice in the world.

JLP is correct in that to travel in these places requires watching your back 24/7. It goes with the territory of third world travel. These folks from Jackson, Wyoming were clearly flaunting themselves as targets, and not at all watching their backs. Again, sorry for what happened, but grow up and get a clue.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:31am PT
BigMike
Jan 4, 2013 - 01:35pm PT

Where is the OP on this one... Starting to smell a rat...

BigMike, I feel the same way, but we could be wrong.


EDIT

t*r
Jan 4, 2013 - 02:21pm PT

Those links do not endear me to the story. If indeed these travellers' story is true, then...

...but it also could be a case (and I am not saying it is) of one of self-aggrandisement. I could easily post stuff on the internet and in blogs that would not be questioned by many, but then...

With the internet and such, it is easy for stories to be picked up and given credence to by blogs, forums, lazy journalists (something I know a lot about).
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Latin America is not a giant sh#t hold
Yes it is! Septic systems and sewers, drinkable water? No. What else is a giant shithole? This place defines it. Sh#t everywhere.

I do generally agree with your points, though.

It's super obvious who in this thread has been through a 3rd world road block, and who hasn't - regardless of their opinion of it.

Pretty interesting shots linked to above - nice flashy cloths in the market with EVERYONE looking at them - forget the truck.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:46am PT
vininja asked:
"Why the need to copy and past the whole letter on the 5th page? A good link was on page one. Unneeded post"
I replied:
"Vajayjay, I posted the whole thing (on P 5!) as the link wasn't working for me and I also put it here for posterity, so that if that link or the text is gone we can all reflect on it and remember the truth later at our leisure."
WML said:
"Looks like they redacted their item list; saved for posterity on the fifth page of this thread by someone else. Good call."





We have always been at war with Oceania. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:50am PT
t*r

i just found this... answers accusations of scamming:

http://www.planetjh.com/news/A_109001.aspx

What does that prove, it is still a one side of the story told to a home-town newspaper, and I know journalists, believe me, they can be 'gullible' (I am being nice) when there is a story, especially about a local person. I'd like to see what the Peruvian papers/journalists have to say. I guess I have a bit of googling to do.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:52am PT
This story is reminiscent of an experience I had in Caraz, Peru several years ago. We were traveling back to Huaraz after being in the mountains, and the main road in the Callejon de Huaylas was shut down for a labor strike. Labor strikes typically last for two days in Peru, and they happen frequently. So we just decided to hole up in a local hostal and find some cheap beer to wait out the strike.

In town, people were getting pretty fired up about the strike. No problem for me and my friend as we were just laying low. Then we meet this young, clueless traveling American who wants to "experience" the strike up closer. He tells us that he's headed to the Plaza de Armas, where the local men are getting all fired up and pissed off, to see it up close.

Clueless and arrogant: as if the world was made for young, relatively wealthy Americans to have their experiences so that they can go home and tell stories of daring do in exotic locations. Really reminds me of these young folks in this situation. Well, they got their story didn't they??
WBraun

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:52am PT
In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account
requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:55am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Peru this Week was able to confirm that the official mentioned in the blog post works at the US consulate, but the official declined to comment on the events.
According to El Comercio, Cusco’s office on foreign trade and tourism confirmed the incident, based on reports from the Ocongate police station, but said no formal complaint had yet been placed.

No formal complaint? What? They haven't pressed charges?? Hmm.... Interesting.... Still no independant stories on this one, everything refers back to their blog. At least the OP made somewhat of an effort on this one, he did make four posts before starting his money troll....


weezy

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Back in my day, these kind of incidents got filed under "objective danger".

Dangerous bridge crossings, seracs, angry mobs. It's all part of the approach to the base of the slag heap.

Doesn't anyone value adventure anymore?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Here Here, well said

I'm very sorry for what has happened to these folks, but it must be said that this type of a trip to Peru is exactly what to do if you want this kind of trouble.

To take your truck to Peru from the USA, and make the same kind of car camping trip that I make to the Valley, or southern Utah is pretty naive to begin with. Then to go to a remote location like the region they were in and just pull over on a dirt road to camp out would draw attention from the poverty-stricken locals. The locals were most likely attempting to simply rob them; the use of rock barricades to stop vehicles is a common tactic in robberies that I have heard about in numerous cases in Peru. This includes robberies that occurred in much less remote places than the Ausungate region. Then, fighting the locals by not giving up their documents, and spraying them with bear spray turned the situation into a desperate struggle to survive.

I have traveled in almost all the various regions of Peru in eleven trips I have made there. I have thought about avoiding a scenario like this many times, and these folks made all of the mistakes possible. Any experienced international traveler, who travels discretely and respectfully could have predicted the outcome of a journey such as this. Any person in Lima would have warned these folks against such a trip. I'm amazed that they were not killed.

With due respect, this is a story of how the "ugly" American travels around the world clueless of the local cultural and socioeconomic factors, and gets themselves in trouble only to hope that the local American consulate will bail them out of trouble (which it generally is not inclined to do.) Safe travel in these kind of poor places is done by making wise decisions; not idealistic itineraries. This situation says a lot more about the kind of travelers these folks are, than it does about traveling in Peru or other poor countries. They truly are lucky it did not end worse.











wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
JLP, people gotta sh#t, whether the money is there for sewage systems or not. I've been to villages in east Africa where people are just hiking down their pants while standing next to the road, and taking a crap. Kinda shocking when you see it the first time, but once you get used to it, doesn't really take away from the natural beauty of the place, or the cultural interest of the local people.

These three young wankers continue to show themselves as spoiled brats.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
A bit off topic but...

we would hike into the Sangay park (technically a tiger preserve,

no offence DonPaul, but don't you mean perhaps jaguar? Tigers are in Asia.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
I wouldn't even imagine asking my FAMILY for donates to help replace gear stolen on a climbing trip, especially to a 3rd world country.

A couple guys I knew went to Venezuela to climb some teetering pile of choss. They got all kinds of shiny new gear and clothes. I got a great deal on the shiniest of the shiny and the rest was to stay in the bottom of the bag until the climbing started.

Another friend just had her iPhone stolen out of her hand in Paris. She chased the guy down, punched him in the head, took her phone, and posted it on facebook 5 min later.

Hopefully something good comes out of this thread... either the realization for some that traveling in 3rd world countries (or anywhere really) is not a excerpt from and REI travel catalog, or at least a big heads up for the youngins who are starting to consider big travels. I'm not a big traveler, but I'm always aware when I do travel. It is interesting when you realize you may very well be the ONLY person in Paris with blue jeans and a puffy.


56. Strange lands and separation are the wanderer's lot.
When a man is a wanderer and stranger,
he should not be gruff nor overbearing.
He has no large circle of acquaintances,
therefore he should not give himself airs.
He must be cautious and reserved;
in this way he protects himself from evil.
If he is obliging toward others, he wins success.

A wanderer has no fixed abode; his home is the road.
Therefore he must take care to remain upright and steadfast,
so that he sojourns only in the proper places,
associating only with good people.
Then he has good fortune and can go his way unmolested.

I Ching, written a few years ago or something
prickle

Gym climber
globe,az
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
i can't afford a regular cell phone never mind an i phone...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
When it comes out I am not buying Three Cups Of Coca.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
JLP, people gotta sh#t, whether the money is there for sewage systems or not. I've been to villages in east Africa where people are just hiking down their pants while standing next to the road, and taking a crap. Kinda shocking when you see it the first time, but once you get used to it, doesn't really take away from the natural beauty of the place, or the cultural interest of the local people.

So we agree it's a giant shithole, then. I will never get "get used to" rampant and uncontained sh#t, garbage and disease.

This is a culture with a really low IQ. It's been tested and compared to the rest of the world, with Africa at the bottom by a long way. This is the reason for thier economic and living conditions. It's certianly not a lack of natural resources.

I find Europe and parts of Asia more interesting these days, myself.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Holy fuking ignorant
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.

Werner sometimes I do not agree with you, most of the time I do, and I certainly do now.

My mom always said: "Patrick you are a good judge of people, but the biggest procrastinator I have met."

Well, if mom is right and I am a good judge of people, I smell bullshite with these people's story.

If they are honest, okay. If they are scamming people out of money, there must be some sort of law that can nail them. Today Show? Does that surprise me. More money for them, eh.

Perhaps they really did mess up and found themselves in a bad situation. But their actions (posting a blog a day after on the internet, looking for donations - and if Riley Wyna is correct, that they were looking for money even before the so-called incident - giving interviews, etc) are anything to go by, something does not add up.

Perhaps they ran out of money and were looking for easy money? Perhaps they were looking for some illicit substances? Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

I am not going to give a penny to them, because, I do not have a penny to give to begin with, and I suspect they may be chancers secondly, though I could be wrong.

It just does not add up. As I mentioned before, especially with the story going viral and Today Show talk, I see book and film rights for these three well-off kids.

But the truth will out.

Now, to add, the Irish government refuses to believe my story that I was mugged by a bunch of leprechauns who stole my life savings. And that a Banshee showed up at my door. Go figure. It did happen. And my landlord does not believe it either. So it looks like the safe haven I have created for Jennie (with her medical condition) is going to be gone and social services will try to find a safe, secure and affordable environment for Jennie and I to live. And Boots the cat too. (NB, by being her full-time carer in home care I am saving the taxpayers four to five times what it would cost for State care. The Carer's Association reckon that homecarers like myself save the Irish economy some €4bn a year.)

When Jennie came out of hospital (58 days, summer 2010) after the initial diagnosis, and the doctors and social worker said that she had two options - home care (me) or State care, there was no doubt in my mind. Even though several people said to put her in State care and have a life, I could not do it. She was my partner.

I had over €100,000 of mine at my disposal. I could have gone climbing anywhere.

Why do I mention this? What does it have to do with the thread?

Simply because I chose the less selfish way. Not that I am an angel or saint. Far from it.

I do not see the three storytellers going the "less selfish way".

To repeat Werner's assessment...

In today's horrible economics times where so many are having a difficult time trying to survive these people have now setup a PayPal account requesting donations for a new truck along with the $20,000 they've already made from donations.

Pretty bizarre greedy entitlement gall.

Please support our fun while so many others suffer is the message they are projecting now.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
So not much different than the U.S., we have all the toilets you could want & yet people sh#t at every climbing area there is.
I was at Half Moon Bay a couple of weeks ago, and someone sh-t in the packing lot, at the beach -- 30 feet from where they sh-t there was on open out house.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
JLP never got used to the concept of putting your toilet paper in a wastebasket.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Weren't people pretty skeptical of the incident Tommy Caldwell had years ago? Tommy seems like a good guy and I don't doubt his story. I'm just a little weary of people accusing others of false trip reports.

Most likely, they were not careful travelers and got themselves fuked and now they are begging for help. I'm certainly not helping them replace their iPhun.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Thats pretty much how I see it too Wes. Who knows what the real story is.

but this is really funny..

Here is an intercepted private message from face book - which reads much different from the blog


"""For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys but I don’t think that will happen. Any ho carefull where you camp and I will fill you in on all the gory details latter. jed """"

Ah.. to live in times with instant access to bullsh#t.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Three Cups Of Puf?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Mechrist, I was thinking the same thing. But did Tommy, Beth et al go on the Today Show?

What does a guest appearance pay? My google search says anywhere from $0-$700. But the added benefits of free publicity and crying on America's shoulder should be worth considerably more, especially if there are future film/book rights involved. (and of course expenses, transportation and accommodation are also paid for by the network).

If their story is true, then it sounds like monumental ignorance and stupidity on their part (and bad luck? that they may have caused themselves). Why should they profit from it?

If their story is not true (or at the very least embellished to their benefit, ,at the cost of donors), there must be some law against chancers.


EDIT

And I will find those leprechauns that roughed me up and took my savings.
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
remember, this is the writing of someone who has just experienced something highly traumatic. i'd take that writing with a grain of salt.

I would take it with a grain of salt that its even him writing this.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
If they do go on some stupid show, I hope they have the balls to call into question their apparently arrogant attitude while traveling abroad.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
I was talking to Chris Benway in Huaraz about this situation. He said,

"Yeah, the whole situation sounds not exactly easy to comprehend. What you might also find interesting is that - as of now - there is a 100% news blackout in Peru on this story. Coincidence? "

I think there is a lot more here than meets the eye, or reaches the ear as it were.
I try not to get suckered into these things, but I have to say, JLP, your fear and ignorance is astounding.
TY
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
This is a culture with a really low IQ. It's been tested and compared to the rest of the world, with Africa at the bottom by a long way. This is the reason for thier economic and living conditions. It's certianly not a lack of natural resources.

JLP, you don't think colonialism and its legacy has anything to do with it? Your above statement leads me to conclusions about your IQ.

You're right about the natural resources. Peru has had an economic growth rate for the last 10 years that Americans can only dream of, due to its natural resources. Still, due to government corruption and other factors, none of that trickles down to folks outside of Lima (very few in Lima actually benefit from it either) which is why people out of the capital are perpetually skeptical toward outsiders.

I guess this is where you and I part ways in our world view. And by the way, I have never felt more threatened than in the Gare de Lyon in Paris, nor I have stepped in more sh#t than poodle crap on the sidewalks in Chamonix.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Here is a short story that I wrote sometime ago. Though the following is just a summary.

Todd and Jim along with their girlfriends Nancy and Val, wanted to make a roadtrip. But not just any roadtrip, but a magnificent one.

Central and South America, yeah they agreed, that is it.

So for funding they went to their respective parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles… anybody that would give money.

As Todd’s father put it: “Of course son, we will help finance your dream, I can understand what dreams are about since I never had the chance in order to work my tail off to get you through university. Go with my blessings.”

And the other three adventurers received the same response from their loved ones. “We will support you, come hell or high water.”

So off the quartet went. They had a great time hiking, swimming in tropical waters, and even getting high

“Man, Jim, that stuff is better than Acapulco Gold.”

“Yeah dude, let’s see what South America has to offer,” replies Todd.

So the roadtrip continues, but by the time Peru is reached, funds are running low, and they only have enough for some snort.

“Let’s fill the tank and look for the cheap stuff,” Val bleats in.

But they soon realize that they do not even have enough to buy a couple of beers between them.

Then Nancy comes up with a brilliant idea. “What about the internet, maybe we can get people to support our roadtrip if we tell them what an adventure we are having.”

The other three nod in approval.

However, the quartet did not count on the vagaries of roadtrips, even with their travels so far behind them. And they then found themselves knee-deep in llama manure.

They forgot about a golden rule that explorers and adventurers had learned over the years, much of the time by the hard way.

“Don’t mess with the natives.”

Alas, they did and rued the day for it.

But wait a minute they thought, there is money in our misfortune. We were stupid, but let’s be smart.

And they thought of Quatermain and H. Rider Haggard, Indiana Jones, Kipling (well the quartet were university graduates, they knew Kipling), and all the other adventure stories that made money.

“Why not,” said Todd. “Let’s make up our own adventure story, I mean, we have been through a lot.”

The others concurred.

But how to make such a story believable in an age where there are so many unbelievable stories being told in print and screen.

The four thought long and hard. And bingo. Of course. The internet.

“Andy Warhol, here we come.”


Now Taco Standers, I never had the story published, not because it was plausible or implausible, I just did not think there was a market for it.

Boy does it appear that I was wrong.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 5, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Patrick - I think you're right, Sangay Park is probably a jaguar preserve, it's been a while since I thought about it.

I'm definitely motivated to send these gringos a ton of money so they can continue their adventures. Can't think of a more worthy cause.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
But did Tommy, Beth et al go on the Today Show?

Sort of. I think it was 60 minutes.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
t*r

I could easily write a friend and ask them to set up a fund-raising account for me, or ask relatives to set up a PayPal account.

Such requests, to make their story all the more valid, are just a phone call or email click away. Am I being cynical? Probably.

But I would rather be cynical than naive. Especially if somebody is asking me for money on a (perhaps) fatuous basis.

To hell I am going to send money that I do not have to these people. If their story is true (and I truly wonder), they got themselves in this mess, not I.

If I had money there are better causes. For example, the only gift I could afford for Jen this Christmas was a €40 contribution to the WWF for snow leopards. I framed the certificate because that is all I could give her for Christmas.

Up until November, Jennie and I were contributing a total of €220/month to eight charities/causes over the past five years (Concern, VSO, Barnados, Lifeboats (RNLI), Dublin-Wicklow Mountain Recuse, Alzheimer's Ireland, Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Animals). My oldest brother Casey who knows my financial situation, said: "Stop it, charity begins at home."

Think about it, we have given over the past five years over €13,000 to good causes, because at the time we could afford it, not that we are or were rich, by any means. But Jen and I believe in good causes, and these three arseholes (in my opinion) are soliciting money for their own good.

They across across as selfish idiots who either were not intelligent to read the situation or are chancing it with other people's money. Confidence trick comes to mind.

To be honest, even if these three person's story is true, there are far better things I can contribute to (like my rent and bills) than to some middle-class adventurers who got themselves in a jam.

I do not weep for them. I weep for the undernourished and abused children in the world.

These three apparently have other family/friends that can help them. Why should we? IMO t*r, contribute to the starving children in the world, some who do not have drinking water.

And if it is true (and I do not know) that the State department will pick up some of the costs of these three people, then think about the tax dollars these three costs the US. IMO they are as bad as the greedy politicians in our country.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
let's wait for time to shake down more details before we jump into judgement.

My gut instinct is...

You are correct, let's wait for the facts to come out, if indeed they will.

But it is still a matter of some middle-class buffoons messing up in one way or another, be it their fault or others, one has to think they could have handled it better. Perhaps I am wrong. I have never been to Peru. I have never been in the situation they allege to.

I have very little sympathy for them, regardless of the 'facts'.

Like I wrote earlier, there are two side to every story. We have only been hearing one side.


EDIT

I still think that the three will benefit in the long run from their story. It is the kind of story that Americans love to hear, how fellow Yanks are mis-treated or ill-treated in another country. It will sell, I'll bet my house on that. Wait a minute, I don't own a house. Still...


... stay tuned, the networks and Fox will lap it up.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Even if the story is 100% true, I'm not gonna send 'em money. If they are for real, they certainly have the resources to replace all their goodies -- lord knows I'd like a spendy digital camera and an Iphone, but I can't afford them.

If they ARE for real, I doubt they'd be spamming for dollars on the internet. I'm maybe 60K in debt with medical bills. It would never occur to me to try to get total strangers to pay 'em.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
bvb ^^^

+1
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
Peru has never been a boring place. Its history reads like a non stop head stomping termination movie where those who could be the most brutal and do it first survived to the present day.

And that dropping rocks thing on your enemy is like apple pie and baseball.

Out in rural bumf*ck Peru the only reason for strangers to be in your little valley at night is theft of your potato crop and guinea pigs.



landcruiserbob

Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Sad but there 's always a trigger ...

They could have parked on top of el presidente's ancestors.

The whistles tell me that they were victims of something in the past...

That was an epic for sure.

Aloha and be well

Rg
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
What $19,000 so far?

There's a sucker born every minute.

Werner, I never really do like your "Americans are stupid" sayings, because I am a very proud American with a family dating back to 1640 in America. Even though I have lived abroad for years.

And while fools are easily parted with their money, I have to agree with you Werner, it seems that Americans will part with their money more stupidly than most nationalities.

And Patrick says: "I want you to know, that if you send me $10 I will ensure the Lord hears your prayer. Just $10 can send you on a righteous path."
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Is it logical to conclude that the more money donated the less likely the story is to be true?

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Abrams, not sure.

But what I would guess and speculate is that the story is more designed to play on the heart strings of Americans and get them to contribute to these people's adventures.

I have to repeat (ad nauseam) something doesn't seem right with this story.

If indeed it is a case of 'fraud', of misleading people to contribute money, and the State department deems it such, will they seek the prosecution of fraudsters, or will they try and cover up just to save American faces. And rush them home to the safety of America, and the Today Show.

Something makes me think there is something fishy here. Ooops, it could be the salmon I just ate.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
I only skimmed the story but somewhere in there it says that collectively these three recieved 100's of stitches to their heads. Anyone who has ever seen this kind of carnage knows that their heads are shaved and they must look like Frankensteins. Photos would go a long way to generating some bonafide sympathy.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Actually it says combined that they received around 100 stitches total...
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Still. As always, totally invalid without pics!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Whether true or not this attack should be the format for the next facelift....RJ
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Its all very sad. Maybe they were mistakenly perceived as thieves. Maybe everyone involved was slightly drunk. Over enthusiastic Neighborhood Watch?

OT inside view of the culture
Peruvian Youtube? about preparing some Guinea Pigs for party guests in
a no nonsense manner. They lead very different lives than we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=inU2nrCWjYo&feature=endscreen



Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
People, fellow Supertopians, I hope I am not coming across in the wrong way.

If these three really did go through everything they said, then... but it seems there are gaps and if they have travelled that far, why were they not more savvy?

It just is, something strikes me peculiar about the whole story.

I have read all the comments, from people who have been to the region, which I have admitted I have not.

But I have been a journalist for some 40 years in five countries, albeit, "developed" countries. I'd like to think I have been a good, objective (subjective for column and op-ed pieces probably) journalist, but I do have a "shitometer" of my own.

Something does not ring right with this story, and again, I admit I could be wrong.

But what ifs... easy aren't they.

And where is Patrick Compton in all of this? Why has he not posted again besides his OP?

No I am afraid there is something more sinister here and I will ask my good friend Sherlock Holmes to investigate. Actually his great grandson, well, actually Conan Doyle's great grandson.

All joking aside, there could very well be a cover up of the alleged incidence... by the Peruvian authorities, by the State department, by...?

And I am not one to be a conspiracy freak, nor a skeptic, nor a cynic. But something is not sitting right with my intuition on this whole story.

People asking for money to continue their travels and pay for their goods, and knowing that a "good" story sells (maybe the three are not fools after all).

On reflection, even if I did have enough money to help these people with their health/medical expenses, I would not do it. I have experienced enough wide-boys in my life.

This story stinks.

And if these three are innocent and victims of an injustice, then...

...but if they are chancers, throw them in the pokey.

If I am coming across as judgmental or pre-judgmental (until the facts are out, if ever), and if I am wrong in what I surmise, I apologize.

But the gnawing feeling is still there.

Do some of you know what $19,000+ could do for some of the Taco Standers suffering from medical conditions. Help a lot.

To hell with these three, innocent or not, they put themselves in the situation. Several Supertopians who are in need did not put themselves in such a stupid situation. IMO these three middle-class turds...

... oh forget it. I think that those (most) posters on this thread either believe one angle or the other.

Black and white, but are there grey areas?

But the cheek of going online the next day after such an "incident", either by themselves or a surrogate, to ask for money, and writing a blog (oh yes, I wrote the blog because I was traumatized and need an outlet... and to beg for help) within hours of said "incident".

Wait a minute, if their computers and iWhatevers were stolen, what did she do, go down to the local internet shop or asks the cops if she could use their computer.

How did this person get her "story" out so fast, even in the age of the Net?

In and out of medical facilities? Excuse me nurse, can I use the computer? I have a blog to write.

Folks, things just do not add up.

Maybe it is me. Maybe I wish I could get people to donate towards my rent arrears that would keep Jennie in a safe environment and the landlord off of my back, and pay the outstanding bills. And yes, my internet access may be cut off any day now, though perhaps some of you may cheer that moment.

There are more Supertopians that far deserve our support than these three "adventurers".

But go ahead, contribute to these three (I can imagine it now, the new title "The Three Amigos, oops I mean "The Three Palca Victims".

Looking at their photos, they seem smug. I am not jealous (I am tired, but I took the job on to look after my partner) I just do not like chancers. Of any sort.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Has anyone started a paypal account for the maced peruvians?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Jim, is that served with some sort of sauce? And a red wine (no wait a minute, alcohol is out).
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
if you google how to cook guinea pig find gobs of vids just that type of meat
most in spanish
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Good luck all in ascertaining what did happen.

I now quit this thread as Jennie is up and in need of her meds. And it is late.

As for the three, I couldn't care less about them, hard luck or bullshit story, at this point I do not care any longer.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 5, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
I do not doubt that these guys were involved in some kind of incident. Whether or no their story went down exactly as they claim I'm not sure. You have to remember that they were writing a daily blog so this would have been part of their routine. Jed's message says they bought a computer to update the blog, and get in contact with home.

Jed's message seems more accurate and makes a little more sense. Not to say it is verified either. Just because someone has claimed to have grabbed it from Facebook doesn't make it true. I would just like to read an independant report that has actually been fact checked.....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
Okay, Jen is having problems so I cannot get to bed/sleep.

I started this on another thread but it is more appropriate here.

I know on the other thread that I would not contribute as I am going to bed, but my partner Jennie is having a rough night and the meds are not helping much. So here I am.

Jeez, two threads for money raising for the three Americans.

Let me get this right, and please correct me if I am wrong.

But, let's for now forget about the people in need outside of the US (meaning Africa, Asia etc). But let's look at the people in need in the US, and there are a lot of them.

No hold on, I will continue my thoughts on the other thread, because it sort of annoys me that some middle-class dumb Americans got themselves in a jam in Peru, and they are looking for money when a lot of people worse off than they are do not go begging online.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
A bus carrying the Argentine national soccer team was attacked with thrown bricks in Lima last year

That is business as usual in all S American countries: Futbol is war and
no truce will ever be signed, especially with Los Gauchos. Of course,
students of the game know that the Peruvians are still feeling guilty for
throwing the semi-final match of the '78 World Cup which allowed Argentina
into the Final.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
El Comercio, Cusco’s office on foreign trade and tourism confirmed the incident, based on reports from the Ocongate police station, but said no formal complaint has been placed.

Jennie, so if it is the case the incident has been confirmed, does that mean it gives a bye to the three involved. We do not know the full details, but by your inference of "quoting" Comercio, you seem to think it gives some credence to one side of the story. Am I correct in understanding your take on this? Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

So it appears that an incident did take place. But we still have to hear the other side of the story. And as far as I can tell, Comerico is more for encouraging tourism than standing up for the indigenous population, so where's the spin?

I had a bad time in the Dominican Republic years ago. I did nothing wrong, but the local tourism board rep sided, wrongly, with the locals while the national tourism rep sided with me, the tourist, which is why I was released, rightfully. Government tourism agencies will tend to side with the foreigner who has money to spend or a big government to back them.

Now my goal is to calm Jennie down and get her back to sleep, and hope for a peaceful night.

But just to recap, this story of the three just does not play for me, not in its entirely at least.

And I still say they will benefit from the publicity and book/film deals. Well played you three. But I will not be buying your books or watching your "ordeal" on the little or big screen.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Of course,
students of the game know that the Peruvians are still feeling guilty for
throwing the semi-final match of the '78 World Cup which allowed Argentina
into the Final.

Reilly, ain't that truth. A final I watched and which the Dutch were the better team, but you know, home field advantage.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 5, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Is guinea pig kosher?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
I'm not declaring credence to either side, Patrick. Some posts suggest nothing happened and the event was a wholesale hoax...the El Comercio statement seems to affirm a dispute and fracas did occur.

I admit being partial to the Teton climbing community... but having not been present at the clash and not being an authority on Peruvian affairs, I'm not in a position to make iron pronouncements about the affair.

The confirmed random beatings and sniper shooting at foreign adventurers in Peru... and mobs throwing bricks through bus windows of foreign soccer teams posit sentiments a mite stronger than envy and rivalry. Hopefully, these represent attitudes of the few rather than the many...



Best wishes for you and Jennie's happiness and good circumstance.
Chippychopperone

Social climber
SLC, UT
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
This is a good reason to release some marines.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
This money fiasco is pretty funny. It's a bunch of wealthy friends and family helping their own - and you get to watch.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Why not just leave the Peruvians alone for fuk sakes? Ain't your country, ain't your home, ain't your land, certainly ain't your back yard campground... so fuk off and leave them be!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 5, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
+1 ... the me-christ has spoken.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Why not just leave the Peruvians alone for fuk sakes? Ain't your country, ain't your home, ain't your land, certainly ain't your back yard campground... so fuk off and leave them be!

Exactly... if we have all our people back, then leave 'em alone.
OR

Trad climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
Been folowing this from early on at another site. It has been a lightning rod for criticism. The $$$ thing is funny.....they will have more now then before they started. Hope they are safe though.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
I think this story checks out. Three outdoorsy types from America think South America is an extension of BLM land and pack their truck like they would for the creek, minus the climbing gear, and go for a drive. Down in Peru they drive into cartel country with a history of animosity towards Americans, set up camp on someone's field, the locals come asking questions, saw some shiny gear, some bad decisions were made and a horrifying tale results. Traumatized from the experience the three make some further bad decisions in telling their tale and now everyone comes out of the woodwork to:

a: beat their chest about their own third world experiences
b: chastise them for flaunting their money
c: call a conspiracy because weird acts of violence should always be predictable and follow a certain pattern.
d: once in a while say something interesting and offer condolences.

Reading their blog, yes they do come across as naive and mildly entitled but so what.

Three months ago a very good friend of mine and one of the most kind hearted genuine people I have ever met, waited his turn (out of five people, four women) to be beaten, stabbed to death, and set on fire in a Denver bar by three young men looking for money to feed their families. I miss him a lot and cannot get over the horror of his last night on earth and how he didn't deserve this in any way. I saw many of the same arguments about racial and class differences presented here in this thread on the various news sites. But thing was Ross was an incredible human being who didn't deserve to die. I see alot of similarities in these two cases in very different countries. This sort of violence is never justified, ever, those who advocate it or suggest that this is in any way justified are pathetic.

-Patrick
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 5, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
I don't think anyone ever said that kind of violence was justified.
jstan

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
My brother went to Peru some thirty years ago. He could not say enough good things about the people. I wonder what it must be like now for those people, to live in a state where mobs are not unknown. They don't have anywhere else to go.

I think we in the US do not appreciate that with which we are dealing when people in the US adopt a mob mentality. They are not thinking for themselves.

It goes on here.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
A little perspective:

Peru is the world's No. 2 producer of copper behind Chile and mining has been central to its recent economic boom, accounting for more than 60 percent of export income. But the environmental costs have had a negative social impact.

Fearing water supplies could be diminished or contaminated, residents of the bordering state of Cajamarca continue to resist a $5 billion gold mining project that would be Peru's largest. The dispute has triggered violence that killed five civilians last month and prompted Peru's government to impose a state of emergency that suspended civil liberties in three provinces. That emergency was extended Friday for another 30 days.


Cerro de Pasco


Anti-mine-owners



Antamina


In 2011, Antamina earned US$ 3,384.3 million making them the most profitable mining operation in Peru.

wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Jan 5, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
After seeing those stitches, I think we should set up a Paypal account for Hank.

Is that pic. La Arroya?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
deserves re-posting as it is racist and wrong from every angle - anybody want to rip this apart?

Here you go:

http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=4923

Oddly, and purely coincidently, it seems I prefer to avoid countries combining low IQ and high T.

Totally f'n racist...
John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
After reading the facebook entries, it is apparent that the writer is almost illiterate

Which is why I question if it really came from this guy. His blog posts sound a lot different.
Gilroy

Social climber
Boulderado
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
You're a hoot, JLP. Peru isn't even listed under the penis size tables.

John M

climber
Jan 5, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
the blogs are well written thanks to the very nice girl friend that is traveling with him..

you can prove this? Or you know something?

I'm just curious because you seem very certain. I would like to know how you know this.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:03am PT
What seems a bit odd to me about this whole thing is the solicitation to the general public for donations from the three victims. What ever happened to calling up your family and close friends and asking for them to loan you some money, etc. to help you get through this difficult time? Why is there a need to make a plea to the general public?

Also, besides being able to help you out financially, would you be looking to your family and friends for emotional support?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:28am PT
As I understand it the original solicitation for money was done by either friends or family in an effort to help, not by the victims. The original report of what happened was written by one of the victims as a filing for the police, thus the list of items presumably stolen. Not sure if that list is still there in the report but apparently it has been saved here on the eternal Taco.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:38am PT

After seeing those stitches, I think we should set up a Paypal account for Hank.

Hank seems fine... But after reading Patrick Sawyer's posts i think he could really use some help.... It seems like if anyone needs it, it's him.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:20am PT
Well, if the victims didn't ask for the money, based on their blog posts, they are certainly spending it. Again, why is there a need to ask the public for donations? Why can't their friends and family be the ones to help out?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:51am PT
an ignorant, selfish bitch

Really?? No, Really? Please, let me get down on one knee and bow to oh Riley who obviously knows everything about this situation even though he's only read as much on the internet.

Lighten up, dude. You throw a whole shitload of negative, armchair conjecture onto a situation you know almost nothing about. Why so hateful? Why not chill and wait to see what more info comes out before making unfounded conclusions?

an ignorant, selfish bitch
?? Seriously. WTF?
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:29am PT
No one anywhere deserves to get waylaid just because they took a wrong turn and ended up surrounded by a bunch of illiterate, poor, pseudo-nationalistic in the moment red necks looking for an easy mark.

For the record one’s genetic heritage, socioeconomic status, or perceived injustice to one’s nationalistic bent or imaginary cultural heritage doesn’t excuse sh#tty behavior to people who are just trying to get down the road.

Yeah I get it; random violence and injustice happens the world over every hour, every minute and probably every second of the day in this mean old world. Still I would let someone kick my teeth and humiliate my wife and sister for $100,000. I doubt there’s a price I’d take for that kind of humble of pie.

For the record, with my first look at this story; I felt schadenfreude: An attractive young couple and their attractive sister(in-law) were living the dream in naïve bliss and the world came and took it away from them: Boo fuking hoo; babes in wilderness; it’s the third world baby and the wolves are at the fuking door. Thinking about that smugness that I had at someone’s misfortune; I worry about me, because it sprang from a defiled imagination - that they are young, good-looking, and living a dream while I’m old, not good looking, and beating the same old ground. Envy isn’t a good way to live, but enough about me and on to the TacoTards......

The race baiting on the thread by the wonder bread boys is pathetic; good to see the gringo term busted out in case of emergency. The game of moral equivalence gets a quick work out with some vague imagining about lost travelers of color getting riled by a mob of southern white red necks in rural Alabama. Maybe fifty years ago; but not today; not now. Then comes the cry to the injustice that is Laos; a war that ended in 1975; before these people who were mugged were even born.

Next up is the boogie man that is the USA-Illuminati-CIA war on drugs. Whatever. Cocaine is about a millimeter more respectable than methamphetamine and there both a complete waste of time and ruins people’s lives. Next up is the evil that is American and Anglo transnational mining companies that follows in the 500 year of traditions of Spain and Portugal; but with a better local cut – same as it ever was.

Not to be forgotten is a old icon who over the course of five years on this site I’ve seen write on the Taco about health and car hours of darkness and seen friends respond in that time of need; now begrudge and questioning the young and bearers of good skin getting some rapid coin on the internet.

My bottom line in this whole deal is my world view and that is that modernity is everywhere and its herald is television. Whatever anyone’s imagined cultural equivalence scale is about skin tones and imaginary heritages; these 3 Americans didn’t throw the first stone. The sh#tty behavior is with the illiterate modern village mob and that should be pointed out.

Undoubtedly the bear spray didn’t help, but really if someone is throwing fuking rocks at you, what are ya going to do? When the sh#t turn south it appears that you are all fuking brilliant? Should’ve, would’ve, and could’ve. The blogging thing and social media I don’t understand. I do know that I would rather go through life without that humiliation of seeing my wife and sister seeing me getting the sh#t kicked out of me, but that may be my particular singular male point of view.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:46am PT
Who of those commenting were there?
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 03:49am PT
Mercy Riley.. what is up? Lately you don't like anything anyone has posted.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:03am PT
I actually feel bad for the villagers having to deal with these idiots - you can bet it has been traumatic for them also.
How so? Way laying and throwing rocks at people is how you deal with people you deem idiots? God help me you called me moron; I’m doomed.

But you are hating on people cause you can't afford a few bucks for a vacation?

You don’t know me dude. I was trying to hold a mirror up but it didn’t work. I got go.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:03am PT
There are a lot of idiots around the world Riley.. not just Americans. If you focus on the idiots, then you will drive yourself nuts. You are better then that.

I have had this funny feeling that the sister precipitated this event. The couple didn't have any problems in 9 months of travel and then the sister arrives and this happens. I wonder if the guy changed his behavior because of some old issue with the sis. Some sort of karma. Just my two cents based my own intuitive hit.

John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:07am PT
Everything you just posted is just opinion of people who weren't even there.
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:22am PT
The amount of money raised kind of surprised me, but that is the power of the internet. There are a lot of good causes that don't get enough money. The world is a strange mixed up place.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:53am PT
Sending money to these people seems a Laosy idea to me, at least until considerably more information is available.

Anders, even if they were attacked, unprovoked, they are still looking for money to continue their travels, instead of making a beeline to the States, as I understand it.

There are number of Supertopians, especially those with medical bills, that could use funds far more than these three people.

Jennie, I understand where you are coming from. And thanks for the best wishes for ‘my’ Jennie.

This money fiasco is pretty funny. It's a bunch of wealthy friends and family helping their own - and you get to watch.

JLP, so true.

Pat, I think you have nailed it. And condolences to you and Ross’s family and friends, sounds horrific.

zBrown, that’s a good perspective.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:39am PT
I hope this is my last comment on this thread.

I do not know what really happened in Peru, but dang it, I sure would like another view besides that of the three travellers. I would like to hear the other side of the story, if there is one.

Regardless, I firmly believe, having been a student and practitioner of the media for over 40+ years, that these three will benefit in the long run (in addition to the donations they have received so far), in the form of books/TV/film.

Time will tell, but stories like theirs will always attract readers/viewers. And they will probably capitalize on that and enhance their bank accounts. Anybody want to take any bets on that?

Cheers, best wishes and safe climbing.

Patrick

MisterE

Social climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Wow, Riley. I usually enjoy your banter, but you are taking this way too personally. Sorry, my friend - you are being a real jerk here.

I won't even bother with your copy-cat thread, apparently made as a FU to this thread.

Hope we can climb again soon - you should get out TODAY, and release some of your angst.

Erik
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:56am PT
where is Krakauer when you need him. This story just smells of a best seller. ha

by the way, I'm still neutral as to what went down, and who is at fault. Not enough info at this point. But I sure hope at least some of the funds go to building a medical clinic or something in a Peruvian Village.

A friend of mine did a "sponsor me by the mile" type bike ride from Canada to Guatemala, and raised something like $15,000, which she used to build a new school in an impoverished village. Construction is cheap down there.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:04am PT
before you are quick to judge, or dismiss an entire country because of one horrific incident, please consider another perspective: http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:15am PT
So they found a way to squeeze some pennies out of some gullible people. So what, nuthin new about that. Certainly not a big enough issue to get my panties in a bunch over.

If people want to complain about misspent money there are much bigger fish to fry than 3 tourists in South America.


I'm off to vacation in Northern Mali. Anybody want to contribute to my travel fund?
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:21am PT
When I was in Amazon some azzholes raped women in one of the villages.

The villagers caught them tied them up and hung them upside down into the river and the piranha ate them alive.

When I was in Africa some azzholes did something in one of the villages and they got killed.

Don't fuk with people in the third world.

Bridwell told Schultz he wanted a skull from one of the burial sites in this village we were in Africa.

Schultz climbs up there and grabs a skull and yells to Bridwell "How about this one?".

The whole village started to get really agitated and we told Schultz to put that thing back and get fuk out of there.

We told those guys we're leaving because you're going get us all killed you stupid sh!t.

He put it back and we booked it outa there.

Fuking stupid ......


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Riley, you don't know what really happened. None of us do. For myself, I'd say I'm close to 99.7 percent certain these guys got attacked. .0001% sure (unsure) of the reason. I'm sure that there was a reason in there someplace, just that you and I, and everyone else for now, do not know what it was. It could be that providing the documents and explaining with a smile who they were might have avoided the misunderstanding that they encountered.

That they have collected $20,000 rubs the wrong way. Last time I got my ass whooped (by a large group of men), I went unconscious and when I finally came to, I had forgotten the English language, including my name and everything I was and thought that I knew....I found it quite interesting. No one gave me a nickel, and I eventually figured it out and learned language and how to speak again. Turned out I'd done some damage to them as well, and luckily avoided a long prison term by the hair of my chin.

Sh#t happens dude. It did here.

Riley W. said:
"John - you know what it was at first?
The village wanting to kill them - children, woman?
I mean WTF - it's not the 16 century anymore.
Children and woman are not going to want to kill people for no reason - it's just ridiculous - of course if a person has never been in many of these villages they are going to believe anything - "Dragons be there"
The entire story played on fear and xenophobia and ignorance of the unknown. Best of all - it was written from the perspective of an ignorant, selfish bitch, who had been in the country for a few days, and was to stupid to know that what she was writing in her biased tale told us that she had not clue - drinking beers, not showing ID?
These are human beings who live in a community!!You are in their community! You need to understand the local customs, local law enforcement - not start running people down.
How ignorant do you think these villagers are? lol
They have no right to control traffic through their town and ask questions?
What do you think? It's a lawless land of ignorant savages?

They had absolutely no clue and they should consider themselves very very lucky they are not dead. If it would have been even close to an evil village they would be dead - they are incredibly lucky.

What is a believable story? that they were stopped by a group of men, bandits, thieves, and robbed and raped, etc
This happens just south of the border here all the time - everyday - a few months ago they stopped a bus headed to Veracruz and shot a handicapped girl and her family becuase she was not answering questions properly.
We don't go to Mexico anymore - but if you do you have to have your wits about you - have a few separate dollars on the side to pay people off - it's part of the culture.

I would be surprised if these people are not still involved in some kind of problems with the law - they signed a piece of paper with the local government that stated they were drinking and driving and crashed their car - that is exactly what they were doing - look at it from your perspective - what would have occurred in the exact same situation in Yosemite or a little town in Mississippi or the corner of a street in New York, City.
What allowed you to see it differently is your disrespect and lack of knowledge of these peoples laws, customs and ability to Police their own town!!

That is why this thread is so interesting - it does not expose the ignorance of Natives of Peru it exposes the ignorance of the natives of America."

There was a reason. We don't know what it was. I don't see them as being disrespectful either....there was clearly a miscommunication though.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:52am PT
DID PEOPLE GET THEIR MONEY BACK? YESTERDAY THERE WAS $19370. IN THE FUND AND TODAY I SEE:

Current Amount:
$4,720.90

Or did the fund drop cause they pulled some money out? Bizarre.

see for yourself:
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:56am PT
news of Peru redux

Joran van der Sloot sentenced to 28 years for murder of Peruvian woman

The victim's father, Ricardo Flores, complained after the verdict that Van der Sloot was enjoying favorable conditions in a Lima prison, where he has been living apart from the general population and foreigners with money can buy superior treatment.

"A jail isn't a 5-star hotel," Ricardo Flores told reporters. "Let's hope the authorities take that into account and not just in our case."

"Since the first day we've been complaining about the excessive privileges" that Van der Sloot allegedly enjoyed in jail, he said.


Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Photos would go a long way to generating some bonafide sympathy.

No doubt!

You would think that they would be sharing photos to elicit sympathy.

Let us see the broken teeth and the truth.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Thanks BigMike, but we will get by, hopefully. As I have written before, there are other Supertopians in far more need than Jennie and I.

Slayton, I believe somebody already posted that and my (cynical?) reply was that it wouldn’t take much for one of the travelers to ask a friend/family to set up those accounts, sort of in a surrogate way.

Bhilden and Jim Brennan, I agree.


Who of those commenting were there?

Todd, that is a good point. However, these people are asking for money from the public, so questions of the bona fides need to be asked.

And Todd, I wasn’t there for Pearl Harbor or the Holocaust, but that does not mean I cannot comment on such events. I just think something smells fishy with the incident. And of course, I could be wrong. But apparently, I am not alone in thinking this, not only on this forum but several other forums and news articles.

John M, that just may be.
this just in

climber
north fork
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
You can all apologize to me now for attacking me - My judgement was dead on as usual..
You are your biggest fan.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Here is an account in a Peruvian newspaper of the incident,

http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate


"Al parecer, los turistas ingresaron a la comunidad, no se identificaron y hubo problemas con el idioma. Los campesinos los habrían confundido con abigeos."

It appears the tourists entered the community, didn't identify themselves and there were problems with the language. The villagers had confused them with abiegos.

Does anyone know what abiegos means? I think it is a slang term specific to Peru denoting a group of people? I have never been to Peru.

Many of the comments below the article reflect what has been said here, some are surprised, some think the story is unbelievable, and some say this region is known for violence.

Looking for more articles...

-Patrick

abiegos are possibly tourists from Spain? Bizzare.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:09pm PT

One interesting comment by a Peruvian:

"Yo y mis amistades, turistas de Estados Unidos, fuimos agredidos cuando tomamos un bus de Cusco a Puno. Habia una huelga de campesinos los que tiraron rocas al bus donde ibamos e incendiaron el puente por donde debiamos cruzar. En el bus yo era el unico Peruano. Que pena que esto no se sancione."

My friends and I, tourists from the US, were assaulted when we took a bus from Cusco (sameish region?) to Puno. There was a group of villagers who threw rocks at the bus we were in and burned the bridge we were going to cross. I was the only Peruvian on the bus. What a shame this hasn't been dealt with.

Sounds eerily similar.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Does anyone know what abiegos means? I think it is a slang term specific to Peru denoting a group of people? I have never been to Peru.

Pat, abigeo, is not a slang word. It is a Spanish word meaning "cattle rustler". Please see this article: http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Do these people who were hurt - who incidentally certainly have my sympathy - have any family or other resources for a few bucks to get them home? I mean isn't that all they need is a flight home to pull their sh#t together?

they have raised over $20,000 since the incident.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
They listed over $10,000 in damages on their blog. They also alluded to not knowing what medical expenses would be and hotel costs during treatment. The donations are continuing to pour in. Here is the donation site: https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed

Yesterday, it was at nearly $20,000, so I believe there has been a withdrawal since then.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
What bothers me about all this is that the victims have not in any way, at least not as far as I've read both here and elsewhere, taken much responsibility for their own part in escalating this situation. The refusal to ID themselves is a glaring example. They don't seem to see anything wrong with this.

I don't care what their intentions were. People need to take responsibility for the actual consequences of their own actions, intended or not.

They're lucky to be alive. IMO
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).
sempervirens

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
There is not enough info to make the conclusions Riley jumps to. Why make all those assumptions just to back up your judgement? What makes a person need to make that judgement of others?

At this point, we have more information about Riley. IMO, we have enough info to judge Riley, and it's not looking good.

People are damning those three for drinking beer and "out of bounds" camping in a foreign land and having expensive Patagonia gear. How can we know how selfish, privileged, ignorant or belligerent they were?


pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made. I can't imagine they often have tourists from the US stopping in to camp on their land.

I have never been to South America and I can't say that I know much about the history of the region although I did date a Peruvian girl here in the US and I remember her explaining some of the problems around Cuzco. To be honest I imagined the situation probably being almost exactly what you described in your post and I have been trying to find more information on the history of the region to see if this is true.

Reading the blog posts and looking at the pictures of these two you can see quite a bit of naivety and ignorance. For example there are several photos on the blog of locals in Colombia staring angrily at the camera, kind of ironic.

It is sad this incident has stirred the racist pot in Peru, I can see that in many of the comments below the article I posted.

My ultimate thoughts on the matter though will always be that these three didn't deserve any of this, end of story. There are always people looking to blame the victims (I am talking about some of the posters on this forum and others, not the blogger mentioned above) similar to how the villagers living in this area were probably blamed in the past for their plight. Blaming these three for being beaten almost to death is the same thing and shows the same lack of empathy so pervasive in the world today.

-Patrick
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).

The word gumption comes to mind.

You really have to hand it to these guys!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
You know the Nigerians are following this closely.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
So what?

I'm not trying to justify anything, just giving the background info. We still have only one side of the story here, and that is clearly not enough.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
They may have been totally innocent victims for all I care.

What gets me is that they are not necessarily soliciting contributions, but accepting them.

Even if a third party raised money from strangers to help me out in a time of need, I wouldn't accept those funds.

But, that's just how I roll. I'm hard as f*#k. Sh#t goes wrong? Well, I just recalibrate my plans.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/a-fool-and-his-money-are-soon-parted.html
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
One way ticket to Nigeria with an iPhone?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
The history of white men rolling up in the Andes. This element of the incident is perhaps the most complex and the most difficult to summarize in a brief article, but let's just say there are 500 years of history of white dudes coming to town, taking over, and submitting people with violence and oppression to a slew of undesirable foreign conditions. Conquest, forced conversion, forced labor, expropriation of communal lands, education reform, the confusion of the internal war in which mostly Quechua-speaking Peruvians were caught between the Peruvian military and the Shining Path, forced sterilizations, multinational mining companies, and yes, even encroaching tourism...

Yes but in this case, "white men" did not roll up anywhere. There was one guy and two women.
I think there's a little cultural naivety in thinking that the villagers actually thought that a group of 1 gringo and 2 (very non-threatening looking) gringas were banditos. Seems far more likely that they looked like prey. Which they were.

None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

Edit,
I'm also in the group that thinks this is interesting not just in itself, but also to gauge reactions to it. Consider the following:
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made
That so far doesn't make sense to me, that what can you say. Remember a group of 2 gringos and 1 gringa were just hanging out, planning to camp (with or without permission, who knows), drinking 2/3 beer each. Makes zero sense to me.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Thanks BigMike, but we will get by, hopefully. As I have written before, there are other Supertopians in far more need than Jennie and I.

Let us know Pat. The Taco seems to take care of its own. I haven't always been in a position to contribute, but a this time I could spare a couple to help a brother out. You are worthy sir.

as to the money they pulled it at 15,000ish and re-started it.

*** UPDATE 1/4/13 12pm: This fund has been reopened for additional donations. Jenny, Jed and Meghan will receive the initial transfer of funds today. Thank you for your support. Please feel free to share this link to others.

There is a pattern here. They set up a paypal account for friends and family to contribute before they left. They managed to convince a camper company that they would provide enough exposure with their blog that they gave them a 15,000$ unit for free....

So naturally when they post about their horrible misfortune their friends set up a fund for them and it just happens to go viral... The power of the written word eh?

The Peruvian report still refers back to their story.. The only "independent" report we have is the one Riley posted and that's not confirmed as far as I'm concerned until I see the original source, not a repost on some comments section..
Gal

Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).

YES, +1001. PLEASE! I read the first version that didn't have the list of items and felt bad for them, then I read the extended version-SUPERLAME!!! ...and I can't believe they are actually getting money-so entitled, I now feel NO SYMPATHY. Especially with how they jacked up the prices of a lot of their items. I can see how these tribe people might be angered & frustrated at the division of wealth in the world.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Bruce I agree entirely.. It certainly seems excessive, self reliance is at the far end of these guys spectrum....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
If you solicit funds from the great blogosphere you better be 100% transparent in your intentions for the funds and 100% accountable for their use.

To all the people (and especially to the blowhards) who gave us shìt for questioning the way the Bachar and John Long fundraisers were handled, I dare you to explain to us what exactly is wrong with this line of thinking. Double dare...
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
This thread really needs a summary of facts as it appears a number of people posting haven't followed the whole story and are simply issuing knee-jerk responses to other slanderous posts. My interest in this story was piqued, as were the interests of many on this forum, by the problematic account of events given by the alleged victims of the attack. It's impossible not to have ambivalent feelings about their experience (at least from their account) especially as it seems, at best, to be the result of a series of bad decisions coupled with cultural misunderstanding and bad luck; at worst it is either a fiction on their part or a case of an entire village coordinating an attack on relatively wealthy travelers.

Here's a factual review:

-An incident befell three American travelers near or in a village in the Cuzco region of Peru. From their account, it was a brazen attack and robbery by an entire village stemming from a refusal to produce official documents. The victims, however, may well have been attempting to camp on private land without permission and said refusal to identify themselves may have provoked suspicion. In any case, an incident escalated that involved rock throwing by villagers, the usage of pepper spray by the 'attackees', roadblocks and a vehicle accident.

-After the incident, a blog post by one of the victims includes an account of the incident as well as a much-criticized list of stolen or lost possessions along with their estimated values. Criticisms include inflation of said values as well as the moral implications of posting such a list. To her credit, one of the victims has stated that the posting was actually originally intended for an agency for whom such a list was a requirement; said list has been removed from her blog post.

-One of the victims friends has set up a much-criticized donations account in aid of the victims expenses incurred during the incident. Criticisms have mainly regarded the alleged avarice of the victims and their material concerns, despite the fact that they themselves didn't set up the account. Donations for an amount of approximately $20,000 or more have accumulated via 200 or more willing donors.

-On this forum, the predominant sentiment is that these are clueless Americans who, in responding improperly to a confrontation of some kind by Peruvian natives, were beaten and probably robbed. Many posts have indicated either implicitly or explicitly that the outcome was well deserved. Similarly, the subsequent financial aid and outreach to the travelers has been framed in several ways: as suspicious, in that the story is either fabricated or at least being used for monetary gain; as 'weak', in that the travelers can't roll with the punches and are somehow demeaned by seeking any sort of help with their situation; as avaricious, in that seeking any help beyond medical expenses and basic personal needs indicates greed.

My main issue with the responses here (I am aware that I've chosen to read posts and, now, to participate) is the obsession with the morality of issuing financial aid to the victims. Even though this incident could, in all honesty, have entirely been due to errors made by the travelers, I don't see how that proscribes them seeking or receiving aid. Remember that it was a friend of their family that opened the CrowdTilt account and that it was 200 or more willing donors who subsequently grew the fund. The internet is a powerful fundraising tool in part because it makes it so convenient to transfer funds (at a click of the mouse). $25k may well be just enough to cover their medical expenses and the replacement of some of their possessions. Further, people willing to donate to the fund doesn't necessarily call into question the intentions of the alleged victims.

The snap judgements made in this forum, while typical, fall short of the mark in this case (and in many others). Only the eventual responses and actions of the victims of the incident themselves, coupled with a better sense of the incident itself, if available, will allow for any real insight. I would think it unlikely to ever have enough information to make a real informed opinion about this event. However, for the sake of repetition: the fact that the victims have family and friends who are willing to fund their recovery (including of lost possessions) doesn't necessarily vilify the victims. It's easy to pontificate here about the questionable morality of material pursuit, the idiocy of American travelers, about the conspiracy theories of a fabricated incident wholly for the purpose of monetary gain.

In the end, there's a greater-than-zero percent chance of this being a fabrication. There's a chance that the travelers incited the whole event in a drunken frenzy. There's a chance that they are clueless travelers more concerned over their truck and their iPods than they are over their own safety. But I would say that the greatest chances lie in the incident having actually happened; that it was a misunderstanding whereby both parties share some blame for the outcome; that the money collected thereafter via the CrowdTilt fund was willingly donated and will be used to recoup costs for the victims, end of story; that in the end this is probably an isolated incident resulting from poor decision-making, 'first world' entitlement, cultural misunderstanding and bad luck. Travelers should obviously be aware of language barriers, cultural differences and regional safety issues and should know that they cannot simply go anywhere at any time without potential consequences.

I don't see what insight can be gained, however, by endlessly lambasting them on this forum without a complete understanding of the events which may never be forthcoming. You're not required to donate to their fund; neither were the willing donors. The morality of such a fund doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on society, the human race, or on whichever hyperbolic extension you choose. Our culture is one that's become more and more entitled, with less and less common sense. This could well be a result of such machinations, but who really can say with any surety?
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Well said Drewsky!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
^^^Pat, I do not agree.

Drewsky, eloquent post, so to speak, but you come across as knowing more than any of us. However, it appears to me that you are engaging in speculation, just like most of us on this thread. Perhaps I am wrong and you have a direct line to all of the facts, from both sides and the authorities.

You say "factual".
Here's a factual review

How can you say that? Do you have all the facts? We have only heard one side of the story. And don't think the use of the word "review" gives you a bye. Not in my book. Having been a journalist for some 40 years in five countries, on nationals and TV, I can smell when somebody is trying to present facts that they do not have.

Substantiate, substantiate, substantiate, as my editors use to tell me as I was starting out. And none of us, as far as I can see, on this thread, can substantiate anything but speculation (and our gut feelings, which is really not good enough for objectivity... subjectivity, yes), including you Drewsky. Unless of course, to iterate, you know "facts' that the rest of us do not.

As far as the setting up of fund-raising, how do any of us know that it was not done at the instigation of said travelers? We don't. So your long-winded post is no more, no better, no less, no right, or no wrong that what a lot have posted on this thread.

Unless you know something that none of us do. But to my thinking, you come across as more superior, more all-knowing and more clued-in than the rest of us. But beware and be careful, you may wind up with egg on your face, as many of us may.

Drewsky, maybe it is just me, but you seem to come across just as arrogant and judgmental as most of us concerning this matter. This is not a personal dig at you, as such.

I for one, unlike Pat, am not impressed any more by your post than some other posts on this thread. No offence, dude, unless you have some insight that others on this thread do not.

I would reckon that we all are speculating, but what I think strikes a sour note with many of us, is the, shall we say, crassness of the three looking for handouts.

As far as I am concerned, there are far better people in need that I can contribute money to (if I had it).
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

+1 blah³

Since I can't just outright agree with you, I will say that I am able to tell a giant troll from a complete fool. Obviously, look just look it up in the (electronic) literature.

Giant Troll (armed)




Compleat Fool:


pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Patrick-
I took it to mean factual as in a summation of the stated events of the case, not that each stated event was fact in and of itself. I liked it as such.

I believed this happened more or less as they told it, but recognize their story should not be taken as "fact" per se right now and there is a lot of missing information about how this all started. I accept the proposed back story as well of the villagers defending their land, and I feel sorry for them somewhat but I don't that is an excuse for what happened and the type of justice they elected to use.

I like Drewsky's assessment of the money situation. I would add that materialism goes both ways, both for supposedly wanting all of their stuff to be paid for, and for the villagers stealing from them, its a human trait not just confined to entitled Americans so basically everybody looses here when confronted with the materialistic litmus test.

I would not sit down at a bar with these three and make friends with them, but that is a separate issue from what happened. I had a similar reaction to reading their story that this couldn't be true. The first thing I asked was are there similar stories of this happening in this region? I have encountered several now.

I take issue with this idea that we are all a just bunch of xenophobes in the US for believing the story the way these three have told it, I think it is ridiculous to posit that those living in poverty in foreign lands are all peacful non-materialistic people incapable of organized violence. Violence exists now just as it did in the 16th century at home and abroad.

-Pat
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
Thank you Drewsky. I don't know who you are, but this is almost exactly what I was thinking but just didn't have the ability to express. So thank you for putting my thoughts into words and expressing it so well.

John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Patrick-
I took it to mean factual as in a summation of the stated events of the case, not that each stated event was fact in and of itself. I liked it as such.

This is how I interpreted his post.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
^^^^
Sort of like building a gondola through a public park, eh?
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
I like drewsy's summation of what's gone down on this thread.
But maybe drewsy was composing his post when this little bomb dropped:

It turns out the other side is that they were tresspassing, never asked permission. When villagers approached them to determine what was going on the Americans started the violence by pushing the villagers out of the way, almost ran over one, pepper sprayed them, then drove up a dead end road. Villagers places rocks across the road to stop their return. The Americans crashed over this barrier at high speed. They threw rocks at the truck, but the Americans didn't seem to clue in they should stop and behave properly in someone else's country. Larger boulders were placed on the road, the Americans approached this at high speed and at the last minute drove off the road and crashed causing injuries to the Americans. So now we have violence against the villagers, a car crash hence property damage and injured passengers. They were taken to the village, the National Police were called and they were asked to fill a report about what happened. The Americans claim they were “forced off the road” - untrue, they chose to drive off road. They claim injuries by the villagers, untrue, it was a car crash that did that. No guns were used, unlike the exaggerated story being told. They claim they were somhow intimidatated into signing a false report, when in fact the report was quite true, they crashed their truck and were injured.
expatperu

Of course, nothing is confirmed.

I've teeter totteder back and forth on this whole deal, not wanting to judge.

Dream trip, for sure, turned into a nightmare.

Their trip could've very easily turned nightmarish in Northern Baja where they camped. The horror stories from that region are very real.
And a little further south, in Baja Sur, where they were 100 miles of the highway on the backroad to Scorpion Bay, without any real knowledge of a desolate road.
Or ON THE BEACH at First Point at Scorps. Suprising a local didn't kick their asses, much less, a surfer.
On and on, all the way down through Mexico, Central America, and South America.
Even for seasoned Latin American roadtrippers, much less some kids residing in "lifestyle destination" towns, this is a trip where anything could happen at any time...and finally did.

I hope they heal up and find themselves safe back in Jackson or Moab soon.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Don't want to sound too repetitive but, but blah is right for once


None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
I don't see what insight can be gained, however, by endlessly lambasting them on this forum

That is sort of funny (that somebody would come to the taco looking for insight rather than entertainment.)
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
That is sort of funny (that somebody would come to the taco looking for insight rather than entertainment.)

Is this insight, or entertainment.

Or perhaps both.

I tend to find both on the taco.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
I hope they heal up and find themselves safe back in Jackson or Moab soon.
Don't forget Boulder!

But regarding this point:
I like drewsy's summation of what's gone down on this thread.
But maybe drewsy was composing his post when this little bomb dropped:
[villagers account . . .]

Don't see how that is a bombshell at all, just tends to confirm that the villagers are sticking to their story, which seems implausible (for instance, why would they have signed the account saying they were drinking and crashed their truck, even if it were somewhat true, but for duress? And does it really seem likely that they successfully made it as far as they had, even though they do seem somewhat clueless, by driving around drunk?).

But I don't want to retract from my no-one-knows-what-the-hell-happened stance, expressed by others and quoted with approval by my friend zBrown (friend at least until the the Trayvon Martin story heats up again, then we'll see!)
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Well, one thing... To use that fundraiser platform instead of simply setting up a direct PayPal(or heaven forbid going to a bank and setting up a trust) puts 2.5% of all donations into the pocket of the website.

So...$20,000 - the website gets $500.

Also, every donation includes a 2.5% credit card processing fee on top of their donation.

I know I have learned a little from this thread, if I were ever to be traveling in other countries, to do research and understand as clearly as I could, how to manage myself.

I will say that I have read some of the blog posts, and was pretty surprised to see an attitude sort of like "ewwww," even after having been supposedly immersed for several months. I guess a nice metal shell, e-lectronics and neon outerwear acts as a bit of shield from that immersive experience.


Nonetheless, I do wish them a full recovery, and also a quick fading of the 15 minutes fame.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
simply setting up a direct PayPal

They have had a donation link on their blogsite - it says "Donate: Buy us a taco or a tank!"
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Yes, I know about that one - I refer to this recent campaign.

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
My point is, they had a system in place to accept funds (or a taco). That's been there and available to anyone who wants to use it. Noting it is not a value judgement. Heck, many people use these sorts of links. Why would pointing that out appear unfair?

There is simply no need for them to start any new links to donations. Nothing unfair in pointing that out.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
In all fairness, asking others for money because your trip went horribly wrong is absurd... especially if you are replacing iPhuns and sh#t.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:42pm PT

As long as we're pointing things out, I'd like to ask who would you rather send money to, John Long or Los Tres Peruvian Amigo/Amigas? or our former President elect?









Send

Trad climber
Central Sierra
Jan 6, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
I wonder if the 'villagers' heard about the Newtown Conn. tragedy? And what they think of us?
Something like...."fancy clothes, electronics, money, look at what they eat and they shoot each other?"
They must be like WTF?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
No worries. Like Blahblah said - none of us know what happened there. And really, it doesn't matter in some ways. They got whooped up on and that is a drag. Did they start it? Who knows. Were they purely innocent? Who knows. Were they purely guilty? Who knows.

I don't have a dog in the race, but as I noted above, the asking for money for luxury items turns me off. Maybe the fund was started without their knowledge. If so, that is uncool (and unethical imo) of someone to do that! If someone did that on my behalf, I would state that publicly and return that money ASAP.

That has not happened however. But they are not me and that's okay. That is the only part that turns me off about their behavior. They are not *victims* of un-asked-for-money falling into their lap (!!Someone else set up the fund, it's not our fault!!!). They cannot honestly say "we didn't ask for it so it's not our fault" "but hey let's finish our trip maybe because of it" at the same time imo.

Keep in mind, this is only my opinion which is worth nothing in the scheme of things.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
And really, it doesn't matter in some ways.

Yeah, but in some ways it does. If someone is unfairly brutalized, then isn't it fair to ask for donatations?

And, if someone wasn't, then isn't it abominable to ask for them?

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
^^^^^ Yup, Crimpie. In total agreement as far as the funds. They can certainly turn it down even if they didn't set up fundraising in the first place. Pretty lame if they're taking money to buy replacement luxuries, if that is happening. Not so lame if they use that money for medical or travel expenses back home, not to continue the trip. All my opinion, of course.

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Agreed T*R.

And ZBrown, I also think it matters in this way: IF the three were in the wrong, then it's inappropriate to demonize the people in that village, or the people of Peru. Going public could have terrible consequences for those there both personally and economically.

edit:
If someone is unfairly brutalized, then isn't it fair to ask for donations?

I think it's fine if someone asks for help for healthcare issues. Everyone can then contribute as they see fit. I think that is the case whether it was an unfair brutalization or not. People can choose what to do based on the case. But asking for help for equipment and things like that...that is not appropriate imo even if they were brutalized unfairly. Some people may still step up and help. Others not. Others mileage may vary.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Maybe the fund was started without their knowledge. If so, that is uncool (and unethical imo) of someone to do that! If someone did that on my behalf, I would state that publicly and return that money ASAP.

-unless that someone had the money go straight into their own PayPal account instead of yours. ;-)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Pretty lame if they're taking money to buy replacement luxuries, if that is happening.

Slayton - they noted that they replaced their laptop with 5k already.

edit:

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.

Agreed. And I'll add this change:

The thing that gets to me about so many posts and those posting in this thread is the vilifying of these three individuals and the Peruvians, sometimes to the point of serious anger and borderline hate, all based on nothing more than the original statement and then the opinions of others. I don't care what skill those folks have with logic, how smart they are, or how keen their judgment. They're not clairvoyant, they weren't there, and so they don't really know what the hell happened. Certainly not well enough to pass some of the judgments that have been made.
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
crimpergirl, i agree with you. what's at stake here is not really who's right or who's wrong. who asked for money for what. i'm not interested in judging people's personal decisions during or after a trauma. what the bigger issue is--as you say--is that going public with only one side of the story has created a slew of negative, and prejudiced responses not only to the people in that specific town, pallca, but also in small andean villages in general, and even peru. i have seen some forum comments saying things like "oh man, i will never go to a third world country!" i would hate for the ultimate outcome of all of this to be to reinforce stereotypes and impede future cross-cultural exchanges...

i don't think there is a "right" side of the story here. to me, it seems like there are victims on all sides of this horrific cultural misunderstanding. it is unfortunate that the way power dynamics work, that only the wolfroms' story is being heard!!

http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
When those people eventually come back from Peru they will probably start throwing rocks at the SuperTopo people for talking sh!t about them .....

:-)
Guernica

climber
right there, right then
Jan 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
Chichalimona- without a doubt, the coolest and most alliterative username on here. My compliments!

Carry on.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
chichalimona-

Good editorial at several levels.



Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Slayton - they noted that they replaced their laptop with 5k already.

They spent 5K on a laptop?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
I can't find now where I read that. Thought it was in their blog, but don't see it now. Maybe it was upthread.

I could be wrong, but I am certain I read it somewhere.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
I appreciate your post and attempt at starting a dialogue Chicha. What other Spanish Language sources apart from the one I found earlier are there that deal with this incident? Peruvian blogs/newspapers with a non-racist slant? Can you point us in any direction?

-Pat
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
hey pat,

most of the stuff coming out of peru is objective, not taking sides. most articles claim that the people of pallca thought they tourists were cattle rustlers, which seems unlikely, but most likely implies that they were at least perceived as a threat. headlines are pretty much the same across the board: tourists attacked by comuneros. here are a few links:

http://www.radiosicuani.org.pe/nacional/item/168-turistas-norteamericanos-fueron-agredidos-por-comuneros-de-pallca-en-quispicanchi.html

http://www.meganoticias.net/cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-golpeados-por-campesinos-de-ocongate/

http://www.aatccusco.com/boletin.php

i haven't had any luck finding blogs.

in general, this is not making news in cusco the way it is here. the story of a lost brasilian tourist is currently making more headlines in peru.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 6, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Just got time to read the blog post.

Something funny about this. Seems bogus. Very similar to weak phishing attempts I have seen.


Why not just get money from relatives?

If the were real, it would be a major front page news item in the media. Good Morning America could fly them back and pay all their bills to scoop this story.


Pictures of the mayhem would be worth a fortune.



Bogus!
John M

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:08pm PT

most of the stuff coming out of peru is objective, not taking sides. most articles claim that the people of pallca thought they tourists were cattle rustlers, which seems unlikely, but most likely implies that they were at least perceived as a threat. headlines are pretty much the same across the board: tourists attacked by comuneros. here are a few links:
:

Thank you. I appreciate hearing the the people of Peru don't appear to be buying the notion that the villagers thought that they were cattle rustlers.

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
Crimps, I like the change and wholeheartedly agree.

Haven't seen that info on the laptop but, again, if true, totally lame.

Cheers.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
I am losing my mind trying to find that text. Hopefully I'll stumble on it again. I wonder if it's been removed?? I suppose it's possible I dreamed I read it, but it makes me sad that I am wasting valuable dream time on stuff like this. :)
chichalimona

Social climber
baltimore
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Thank you. I appreciate hearing the the people of Peru don't appear to be buying the notion that the villagers thought that they were cattle rustlers.

I should clarify that the objective info is coming from the news articles. There are certainly horrific racist comments in response to those news articles! There are also tempered responses. There are also responses leaning in the opposite direction, applauding the people in Pallca and condemning the tourists. It's across the board on opinions no matter where you are!!
SofCookay

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
They did change the bottom of their blog to remove the list of items/values that were stolen - it now reads:

"The bottom half of this letter has now been removed. I posted this letter that Jenny wrote in order to quickly release our story as it was the only written account I had immediate access to and didn’t have the time to write it out myself. The point of posting this letter was to get our story out so that the legal system in Peru would have to do somthing, as before we released it they were all twittling their thumbs hoping we would just go away. The point was not to ilicit for money just becuase we listed the items which were stolen from us!"

Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Crimpie, I remember reading too that the first thing they did after they got out of the hospital was purchase a new laptop. I don't recall seeing a price but they got a new laptop above all other things.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Thanks SofCookay. I have to assume I saw it there at some point.

Edit:

Thanks Fluoride!

Crimpie, I remember reading too that the first thing they did after they got out of the hospital was purchase a new laptop. I don't recall seeing a price but they got a new laptop above all other things.


That was my thought as well. That was apparently a priority and it was 5k for sure as I was surprised at the cost. I can't judge as I have no idea how much laptops cost there, but it struck me as expensive.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
If those travelers have even a quarter's worth of the character they believe themselves to have they would donate that money to the village.. it would go a very long way in establishing community medical care there, or basic education.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:16pm PT



Best trip report ever!!!


Oh the Pomp and Circumstances.

If anything Supertopo probably has the best peanut gallery in the world.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Thank you ChiCha!

Crimper-
I've been following this story pretty closely as I am laying here at home nursing a dislocated elbow and going stir crazy. I haven't seen anywhere that they paid 5k for a new laptop. They mentioned they bought a new laptop and I think withdrew a certain amount from their account, but I didn't see anything about spending 5k.

You don't have to look far to fault them for frivolous spending, just look at their blog photos and posts. There is one picture of them deciding which 400$ pair of mountaineering boots to buy for one (failed) attempt at a volcano in Ecuador.

They appear to be making some poor decisions in the wake of the tragedy, and if justice is needed the people who donated should take that up with them (I highly doubt anyone here donated). Then again they might be just laying in their hospital beds with previously unnoticed subdurals and brain swelling, a very real possibility after being struck in the head with rocks. Whatever, they didn't deserve to be stoned, beaten and whipped. That should always be the lesson regardless of race color or creed or money, and that is the lesson always lost in the chatter of modern media and search for reason.

-Pat
SofCookay

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
How else were they going to change their blog to show they are not soliciting for donations if they didn't get a laptop first? Come on, people, think!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
In the early 90s I hooked up with two other people in Ecuador, hired a Cessna and cruised out in to the amazon basin. We landed on a grass strip at a navy base(!) and hired some locals to take us down some river to another base where we would be picked up five or so days later by the plane.

We went down the river mostly without incident, staying in peoples raised huts, drinking banana wine, etc. One place we pulled up and the locals were seriously pissed. Like guys yelling and pointing at us with machetes. Who knows why, they mostly don't speak Spanish in the jungle. Our local guides calmed them down and we went on our way. No money/bribes were paid- the guys were just seriously angry to see us. It was pretty scary.

No real point, but things can go sideways when you get off the beaten track. That said, this story sounds like BS and, though no one should be whooped up on, they and their families should foot any bill.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
i really, really, don't need or want to see photos of people who have been bruised and battered. i hope they DON'T post photos.

I do! Might make this interesting.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Maybe all the cameras got taken, who knows. I do know something for sure. If what they say happened to them, happened to me, I would sure as hell be pressing charges!!
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
If I was brutally beaten, terrorized, had a hundred stitches and missing 4 front teeth the first thing I'd want to do is get back to the states and get proper medical help in dealing with the physical and mental injuries. Seems like they just want money to repair their truck, replace their belongings and continue on.

Where exactly are they going to get these stitches removed in remote areas of South America as they do this? How does this guy want to continue his trip missing 4 front teeth? How's he going to eat? Get through the pain? Get his stitches removed in a sterile, safe environment when he heals?

Makes ya wonder.

t*r, I AM curious about these injuries and why no pictures have surfaced, yet we have got full accounts of how much a stolen Nano-Puf jacket costs and needs replacing.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
This so last week's news.

Did they bomb the village yet?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 6, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
SBRphoto said:
"They spent 5K on a laptop?"
No, the Sony Vaio and software was listed at $4,000. Maybe they wanted to upgrade to 2 Macs.




There are 2 fundraising sites. One is transparent and lists the dollars captured in real time. They pulled $15,000 out of it and the remaining is now at $4,780.90. Can anyone advise how much did the other one haul in?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
What I saw was that they listed the stolen laptop at being valued at 4K.

I later saw they bought a new one for 5K. The 5k stood out to me as I thought it a very expensive laptop (and I wondered what it'd do at that price).

Not that it really matters, but I did not confuse the two items.

Sorry to hear about the elbow Pat. I am sitting here day after day as well - but I'm stuck working. Between runs and things I peek over to the taco a fair amount (i.e., too much). At least I can stop working for the day. Your dislocated elbow remains. :/

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
I went to the Apple site in search of a $5000 laptop. The best I could do was the 15" MacBook Pro with Retina display, processor bump to 2.7 Ghz, RAM bumped to 16GB, and flash drive bumped to 768 GB. It came out to $3749.00. Even if you throw in AppleCare for $349.00, it's quite a bit less than five large...
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Hardman, for them to buy a new laptop on the spot in Cuzco it would have been heavily upgraded in cost and tax as a good new laptop in those parts is not easy to come by. I believe $5K is what they would have paid out there. Cuzco is the only major city in the region. I'd be shocked if there's more than 2 places in that city to buy one on the spot. And they managed to find it right away.

Peru has massive import tariffs and unless the business has a Western owner or benefactor, Peruvian business folk have to pay a ton for the stuff we buy for half the cost.

The fact that a new laptop is the first thing they bought and their most essential need is what speaks volumes to me. They could have had family buy them a new one here in the states for thousands less and ship it to them in Cuzco. But that would have taken time. They obviously wanted to get their story out ASAP.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
t*r, you don't get whipping slashes from a car accident. They claimed they were whipped. Their injuries will help tell the story of what really happened.
WBraun

climber
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
We need to see everything.

Now go hide .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
I just don't see why any strangers would give them a dime to replace anything... Are people really that stupid? Wait... scratch that....

Very clever though I must admit...
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
stzzo, they said they bought a new laptop. They weren't sitting in an internet cafe posting on an hourly rate basis.
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
While reading this thread from beginning to the end my feeling toward the victims has changed from big sympathy to questioning the validity of the story they posted.
Some asked on this thread that "[w]e need to hear story from another side (villagers)". This other side's story we can read indirectly in Jennifer Wolfrom report when she says that they were forced to sign the papers of accident report basically under gun point with the following statement explaining the car damage and their injuries :
Their accident report, written in Spanish, essentially said that we had been drinking and crashed our car, which is how the car got destroyed and how we got our injuries. However, the extent of our injuries and the condition of the car far surpasses anything that could happen by driving into a grassy ditch

If at some point we finally get the story from the dwellers of Pallcca we can except that it would be similar to this accident report.
So where is the truth ? Does it lie somewhere in the middle?

In my mind, there are many things which affect the truthfulness of Jennifer story . For instance this part:
There were at least 30 people chasing us and throwing rocks at us at one point. We were running for our lives for between 30 minutes to an hour through the village hills and rivers. We were each struck multiple times by rocks in the head and all over our bodies. We eventually were surrounded by villagers who continued to beat us until they decided to bring us back to the Presidente of the village.

Try to imagine this happening in complete dark. If the mob of 30 locals were chasing the trio with rocks within striking distance - how could this chase be so long (30 min?) What is the reason to strike rocks in the dark if you chasing someone?

If an angry mob of 30 people really beat them they would be dead or severely injured …

The other thing which surprises me is that in the pursuit to collect more money they did not post/submit their photos showing the injuries they got from the beatings, stoning and whipping. Why? Such a photo could answer some questions about the incident - whether in their favor or disproving the story.

Reading her story more and more I trust it less and less. For instance, the reason for driving inside of the village and not back to main road is not explained
The number of beer bottles they had two between tree - not worth to mention unless it was something much more they had been drinking ...

And one more thing: If this terrible life and death experience would happen to me and my wife and my sister - it would be so traumatic that at first possible chance we all run back home, next day.
So if they remained there, collecting money, posting on blogs - it implies for me that their traumatic experience was not so dramatic as they try to make it to be.

And back to original post on this tread.
Patrick Compton registered on ST one day before posting some nonsense on Boobs thread and then 24 hours later dropped a link to donations
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed
Patrick Compton has never chimed up again.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
It easy enough to weigh in and give one's 2 cents worth. A more difficult, time-consuming and valuable approach would be to interview a number of the villagers in the attacking group, and get their side of the story.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
t*r, if there were any gruesome photos of this and the injuries they sustained, it would be all over the internet by now. Every major media source is checking on this story. The UK Daily Mail alone has been looking into pictures to go along with this incident. Hospitals would have the photos and those that work there would easily sell them to a Western media outlet for great money.

They are reporting on an international incident and want proof of what went down. Which is why this story has not gained legs in the world media. Initial reports from what they claimed yes, follow up with proof of it, no.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
"And one more thing: If this terrible life and death experience would happen to me and my wife and my sister - it would be so traumatic that at first possible chance we all run back home, next day.
So if they remained there, collecting money, posting on blogs - it implies for me that their traumatic experience was not so dramatic as they try to make it to be."

Bingo Alexey! I said the same thing just upthread.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:12am PT
4 days later and STILL knott all over the international media.

I think it's official.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:12am PT
Has anyone here an opinion on the massive die-off of dolphins and penguins in Peru? Could there be a tie-in?

http://www.sott.net/article/245836-Dolphin-Deaths-in-Peru-The-Mystery-Deepens

BTW Crimpie. I would agree that donations would be appropriate for medical needs and not for gadgets. For those they should contact their homeowners insurance company.





Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:25am PT
Where is the OP Patrick Compton these days?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:38am PT
At an ATM somewhere in South America, laughing his ass off.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Good one!
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:44am PT
if there were any gruesome photos of this and the injuries they sustained, it would be all over the internet by now.



pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:48am PT
Thanks for the kind words Crimper!

Here is one last wild conjecture and thoughts about what happened and then I have to move on.

Some here and on other sites completely reject that this happened. Based on what I have read, and my own experiences living in Mexico I believe it did. Here is one way it could have easily gone down:

The three gringos drive up to camp for the night at what looks like a deserted spot. Tired they sit down and break out some beer. Half mile a way, up the hill, some villagers, also having a beer after a long day see an odd flashy truck pull on to their land. Having had some recent problems with thieves (maybe horse?) two of them elect to go down and see what is going on. Despite their simmering anger over recent events they try to stay friendly and greet the gringos not knowing who they are or where they came from. They only notice they are foreign which just makes them more suspicious. The gringos start saying something like this, "campo aqui?" to which the villagers quizically reply "Si, este es un campo, claro." All seems good to the gringos, but of course it is not at all.

Back at the village the villagers spread the word the thieves are back, and El Presidente (the Mexicans love nicknames, is it the same in Peru?) gets involved because he is responsible for this village given the police never drop by. Fuming they walk down to the gringos who, being foreign, probably only makes them more deserving of some sort of questioning. The mood is changing and the gringos can feel it. Someone logically demands papers and the gringos think, partly because of the devolving mood, that this is an extortion attempt. They refuse. The villagers see them as more and more suspicious by the minute because of this and get angrier. Scared and getting into flight mode the gringos push their way back to the car which only angers the villagers more who now absolutely must see them detained (they are after all acting guilty). The rest is history with a 10 minute chase seeming like 30 because they are terrified. The gringos experience frontier apprehension and justice, El Presidente realizes his mistake but is unable to convince some of the rest,and the most cultural of cultural experiences results.

On a side note, 20-30 people does not usually a village make (think 100). The romantic in me likes to think a few of the locals did indeed wait this one out, or maybe it got lost in translation that some pleaded their innocence but maybe I am wrong. It doesn't really take an ugly American to have this happen, although granted the three fit the bill to a certain degree and it did not help them.

I really feel for these three despite the bad decisions they may have made. If the story checks out they were, and continue to be innocent of what happened to them. America seems to have taken a turn for the worse lately, and it hit really close to home for me recently. Three months ago I would be joining in the chorus of naysayers. It sucks imagining the horror of the last moments on earth of someone you know, I know I am not alone here. I visited Fero's bar and Grill in Denver two weeks after my friends murder. Staring inside the window I got a strong wiff of a sickly sweet smell, burnt flesh, and I can't get it out of my mind. Did these three almost travel a similar path?

I wish these three the best with what they have to endure. I hope they make the right decision with their money when their lives are stabilized. Give them time. Given the supposed wealth of empathy we have gained in our travels, are we not still being the same old impatient judgmental Americans at heart when dealing with our own?

-Pat
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Only 471 posts...
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:01am PT
Then don't post t*r.

I did the opposite. I stayed out of this until I've seen enough information from both sides to want to post.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Me too, interested to see how this pans out, sorry to keep stirring the pot.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:11am PT
Its a little more logical and isn't quite as obviously biased towards evil Americans as the expatperu thing was. That was obvious conjecture too, and you know it.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:22am PT
My name is Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom. I am a US citizen, a resident of the state of Wyoming, ... my brother (Joseph Palmer Wolfrom III), and my sister in law (Meghan Moore Doherty).


Okay,

#1. Americans DON'T use their middle names. We keep them secret and usually don't like them.


#2. We don't bother telling our citizenship. We just assume anyone reading with think we are Americans.


I could go on and on.



As far as these hoaxes go, this one is very well prepared and very well written. They have probably made out pretty well for their effort. I expect this whole thing was put up by some clever Nigerians.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:26am PT
But, Spidey, many Nigerians are educated in England and can be excused such
excesses in the pursuit of gravitas.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:01am PT
Not a hoax.

Nice work, pat. Your version of events is probably very, very close.

Now in a local Peruvian newspaper, though not exactly front-page news:

http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate

Google's translation:

A group of American tourists was attacked by several residents of the rural community of Pallca, in the district of Ocongate Quispicanchi province, Cusco, the night of December 29.

The correspondent of The Trade Area, Ralph Zapata, reported that the Department of Foreign Trade and Tourism of Cusco confirmed the beating from information from Ocongate police station, but said that did not enter any formal complaint at the above address .

Apparently, tourists entered the community, were not identified and there were problems with the language. Farmers have mistaken the rustlers.

One side of the story is told by Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom, one of the assaulted, in a blog. She noticed that other people are brutally beaten Palmer Joseph Doherty Wolfrom and Meghan Moore.

According to chronicles, were also stripped of their documents and belongings valued at thousands of dollars. The publication says it all happened after they tried to park your vehicle.

He claims that, without further explanation, the unit was locked and suddenly began to rain stones. Subsequently, although the occupants abandoned the truck, the persecution continued.

"There were at least 30 people and chased us throwing stones [...] We whipped and beaten for several hours between interrogation sessions," he says. It is not known if people arrested.
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:20am PT
I should have responded 150 posts ago, but so be it. I'm in complete agreement that we don't know all the facts about this scenario. I don't have any secret knowledge and I don't think that I implied in any way that I did. I mainly restated information that we 'have' (as in, have, for better or worse, been given; feel free to add to it in any way as I'm sure I missed at least a couple of salient details). Arrogance wasn't intended either on my part, but maybe it's a tonal thing? I don't know.

Anyway, the three Americans have made some questionable choices but I guess my main point is: we can't assume that because everything doesn't add up exactly how we would want it to indicates they're perpetrating a clandestine heist via helpers on the internet. They actually do have a travel blog that, at least temporally and geographically, sets the stage for the event in question. I definitely believe there is a non-zero chance that this may be the case, however; we just don't have the necessary info to say for certain. I don't think the 'local perspective' given upstream is any more or less verifiable here than the original narrative, but similarly it can't be entirely discounted either. Americans do often act opprobriously whilst abroad so nothing of that kind can be ruled out.

I think it's far more likely that reality lies somewhere in-between, that these people made a serious error and that they may even have known it at the time. The 'correct' narrative is probably a combination of perspectives, some of which we just haven't seen yet. One thing that just doesn't bother me is that they are receiving money, most likely from people that they know: there's certainly precedent for this kind of action. Some might question why they should donate to help an injured climber, for instance; it's all about target audience and I think even the fund drive in question here is targeted most towards people who don't mind donating $50-100. Of course I agree that fundraising should ideally be undertaken in the most transparent way possible but then again I'm not sure there's anything actually being obfuscated here unless the whole thing is a fraud. Without verifiable information, it's hard to come to any conclusion without skipping a few crucial steps. In terms of 'what I would do': I'm not sure if I would solicit funds other than, perhaps, to secure my return home. But to reiterate, unless we find information to the contrary, it wasn't the victims themselves who solicited funds; the original post was alleged to be part of a statement intended for some official capacity and the list of belongings was not meant as a gift registry (although it does somewhat conveniently double as such). I don't know that I would accept money to replace my stolen belongings with the knowledge that losing money and things is an objective hazard anywhere I go, but I guess we all need help from time to time. Entitlement is an entrenched problem in our society that I doubt we can solve here and now.

I'm still interested in seeing how this pans out. Maybe there will be some kind of information forthcoming that will flesh out the story a bit more. Maybe it will turn out to be a complete hoax! That seems overly bizarre to me, but stranger things have happened. As for the slander here: I suppose that's what the internet is for. I think Ron had it right in that respect. I too am surprised that I linked insight to online forums, although it certainly surfaces here and there amongst all the other flotsam.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:36am PT
Drew, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and well worded intentions. However I think you're off base.

There's enough info out there now to make their claims VERY suspect.

"Entitlement is an entrenched problem in our society that I doubt we can solve here and now."

Umm...parking on indigenous folks' land, refusing to give them documentation, pepper spraying locals and trying to bulldoze over locals building roadblocks...you're not going to have a positive result from this. They handled this situation in the worst ways possible. Entitlement was a core problem of this incident as it was reported.

mechrist, agreed and you're right
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 04:00am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozk-NDc3JSUi

Are you related to Krista Goodsitt by any chance?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:53am PT
just tends to confirm that the villagers are sticking to their story,

Blahblah, don't you mean travelers?


and also a quick fading of the 15 minutes fame

Happiegrrrl, amen to that
Bargainhunter

climber
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:25am PT
What Derrell Licht said.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 08:26am PT
where is the OP. Patrick Compton these days?

Lurking my own post.

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone on here has one.

Fun to watch. Fascinating how many like to criticize the travelers for their belongings and how they acted. Most people reading this would have taken patagucci sh#t, iPhones and pads and reacted to aggression with fear and responded with aggression, just like they did.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:27am PT
Slayton and others. Perhaps I myself am guilty of being subjective concerning this issue, and even judgmental. It’s not like I despise these three people. But what gets my goat is the crassness in the way they have been trying to raise funds, and not only for their troubles in Peru.

It seems to me, 'seems' I repeat, that they have been wanting people to pay for their holiday, ie a free camper van, is that true? If there was sponsorship involved, okay, but I wonder…

As for their story, something doesn’t sit right with me.

As I mentioned before, I’d like to hear the other side of the story, if possible.

I posted earlier that if I had the resources that a) I could get someone to look after Jennie to b) travel to Peru to c) find an interpreter/local to d) interview the villagers to e) see what their side of the story is… there just about always are two sides (if not more) to a story.

Not blowing my own horn but I have interviewed presidents and prime ministers, captains of industry, union leaders, celebrities, and just ‘regular’ people. I have always strived to be objective in my interviews. That said I have had (dickhead) editors change my copy to their taste/liking/slant. I am never happy with that. I am an experienced interviewer.

There must be some journalist in Peru who could go to the village and interview the villagers. Perhaps there has been such an interview, but I have yet to find it.

The links by chichalimona explains some

http://chichalimona.blogspot.ie/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html

http://www.radiosicuani.org.pe/nacional/item/168-turistas-norteamericanos-fueron-agredidos-por-comuneros-de-pallca-en-quispicanchi.html

http://www.meganoticias.net/cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-golpeados-por-campesinos-de-ocongate/

http://www.aatccusco.com/boletin.php


Though my Spanish is very rusty.

My gut feeling tells me that there is more to this story than the three travelers are telling.

Cheers, and safe climbing, wherever you are.

Patrick
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:59am PT
There is an element about the three travelers and their story that reminds me of the inexperienced people who can afford to buy a ticket to climb Everest. They crave the adventure but have no idea what they are really getting into.
.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:19am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Port-a-John
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 09:53am PT
ROTFLOL Don Paul, great post.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Well when comments like wanting to go into the village with AK-47s or nukes are posted it certainly is an insight into a twisted thinking that is a bit too common.
Gimp

Trad climber
Grand Junction
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Just got back 36 hours ago from my 11th trip to south america. Fun place but unless you are in a park situation like Los Glaciers or Torres del Paine I think it is always best to assume someone will want to be paid to camp anywhere below the snow line (particularly in Bolivia or Peru in my experience). Best to be proactive and seek permission and usually offer to not only pay but to also hire a local as a guard as a token of good will if nothing else.
Steve
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:46am PT
yes philo, because clearly internet comments are insight into the most reasonable sect of society...especially on news articles.

That is not what I am saying.
Why are you making that assessment?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:51am PT
So the F what? Why does it matter to you?

Maybe because people want to know something about the guys that are asking them for money. It's not as though people haven't gotten a little thick skinned about plays for money that they haven't got.....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:54am PT
Question for Patrick Compton.

The three have maintained that they didn't set up the donation sites and they did not ask for any funds. So is it correct to assume they didn't ask you to post this thread asking for funds (the link to donating) to help the climbers?

If so, do you worry they'll throw you under the bus for doing this like they did the others who asked for funds?

I ask with genuine curiosity and no animosity toward you or your having posted this.

edit: corrected OP's name from Pat to Patrick. Sorry about that!
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:59am PT
OP (Patrick Compton) wrote:

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone on here has one.

Fun to watch. Fascinating how many like to criticize the travelers for their belongings and how they acted. Most people reading this would have taken patagucci sh#t, iPhones and pads and reacted to aggression with fear and responded with aggression, just like they did.

Yes, everyone has an opinion, and you have been around the internet long enough to know that posting a thread in the manner you did would bring them out. You posted no connective information, such as "These guys are cousins of my friend" or "I climbed with this guy last year" or "I've been following the blog..."

You posted an incendiary threat title with a link, one that didn't actually click through, if I recall, and nothing more.


***

As for you own opinion(hmmm....) that most here would have behaved in the same way, it's likely not true.

MOST people here are pretty aware that when traveling in remote regions, one should educate themselves appropriately and act in accordance with local customs. I can't for the life of me imagine snapping pictures of a travel partner in markets where we are getting the stinkeye and thinking that makes for an appropriate blog photo.


I haven't traveled much, and never for adventure. But a few years ago my friends suggested we drive down into Mexico (we were in the southwest for winter) and I totally balked at the idea. There was no way I was about to jump in my van and tourist around. And my van was a rolling metal leper(rusty as hell).

If even someone who hasn't even considered travel in Central/South America knows they need keep a respectful, low profile and even with taking care knows they are at risk - oughtn't a group who has planned such a trip for years(as their blog mentioned) have known how to manage themselves?

Looking at the several posts with images I saw from the blog, it appeared to me that these people were very sheltered from being immersed in the cultures and locales they vacationed through.


I think these people will likely have the Aron Ralston experience, wherein after some time spent processing the events which led to their epic, they see that in fact they were completely responsible for it's making.
gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:03am PT
I'd like to offer a little cultural/language clarification:
Small (rural) communities in Latin America often have their own local 'government' in the form of an 'Asociacion' and it typically has elected officers who are prominent members of the community. It would actually be unusual for a rural community to have any constabulary, and it would be very appropriate for the 'Presidente' (of the Asociacion) to be summoned in the night, to investigate potential crime or other issue (trespassing etc.).

While I find it very sad that things went bad so quickly, I also think that there is an underlying thread of cultural arrogance and naivete, which likely contributed to the unfortunate outcome.

Most of all, I find it sad to read the ensuing spray-fest here and elsewhere... I've backpacked and traveled using 'local' transpo in very remote Peruvian areas(and elsewhere in SA and CA), and have only found it to be one of my most memorable (in every positive sense of the word) travel experiences. Interestingly, although I am fully bilingual, I don't speak a word of Quechua, and many of those places I've visited were Quechua-only. But if approached by a legit looking group of people (who probably did speak some Spanish), I would certainly have started by agreeing to identify myself in some way (always carry photocopy of passport).

There is crime everywhere, but I think this was a cultural impasse which quickly escalated into a mini-war - with both sides to blame.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Crimpie, I remember reading that too about the laptop.

John M., perhaps you missed this post from chichalimona

I should clarify that the objective info is coming from the news articles. There are certainly horrific racist comments in response to those news articles! There are also tempered responses. There are also responses leaning in the opposite direction, applauding the people in Pallca and condemning the tourists. It's across the board on opinions no matter where you are!!


Spider Savage, my exact thoughts

t*r, whether you'd like it or not, some photos of physical injuries would go a long way to dispelling the disbelief that some people have.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Crimpergirl and happygrrl,

I have no connection to anyone involved in the incident.

You posted an incendiary threat title with a link, one that didn't actually click through, if I recall, and nothing more.

the idea that I posted this up with 'viscious' in the title just to bring out crackpots on supertaco is hilarious.
Regardless of the criticism of their motivitives and methods, climbers were whipped. Whipped. That is viscous, so is breaking out teeth with rocks.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Thanks Patrick.
frank wyman

Mountain climber
helena montana
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:11am PT
Note to self...If ever attacked by angry mob in foreign country....Quickly yell out..."Do what you want to the girl,just don't hurt ME"....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:13am PT
How else were they going to change their blog to show they are not soliciting for donations if they didn't get a laptop first? Come on, people, think!

SofCookay, I guess Peru is too backwards to have internet cafes. And they said they were staying in an (expensive?) hotel, one would think there would be a net connection there, but of course, i could be wrong.

This story seems to have "divided" some of the Taco Standers, sort of like the Roy Keane/Mick McCarthy fiasco in Saipan in 2002, how it divided a lot of opinions in Ireland.


Hardman Knott, good catch.

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?dcid=Ozk-NDc3JSUi

Are you related to Krista Goodsitt by any chance?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Why wasn't this thread enjoined with the America The Ignorant thread?
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Patrick Compton, why you call them "climbers" in the header of this tread? ( they are not)
And is this a pure coincidence that you become supertopian day before?
Are you Jackson Hole local climber? any good routes you can recommend from you home crag?
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:26am PT
Patrick Compton, why you call them "climbers" in the header of this tread? ( they are not)
And is this a pure coincidence that you become supertopian day before?
Are you Jackson Hole local climber? any good routes you can recommend from you home crag?

how do you know they aren't?
yes.
no, are you?

pretty sweet that I am now under suspicion of some nefarious activity just because I posted this story up. If Jeremy A had posted it, it would be goldplated sticky.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:28am PT
To be clear, I have no suspicion of your posting PC. Just curious about what I asked.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:39am PT
no problem, I saw a post on another site regarding this incident and posted it up here.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:51am PT
If Jeremy A had posted it, it would be goldplated sticky.


What the hell does Jeremy have to do with this Patrick?
There went your cred with me.

Although I too wondered why they were called climbers.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:52am PT
OP - can you shed some light on how the public funds are being spent?


I have no interest in casting judgement I just would like some accountability


For all I know its going to hookers and blow, you know?

Last i heard, everyone on Supertopo will get a brand-new lime-green nano puff and a kitten. Just don't wear the Puff to Peru or 'you will be asking for it'. Just one glance at it's recycled, florescent perfection turns Peruvians in flesh-eating Zombies with whips.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:54am PT
climbers were whipped. Whipped.

Howdy Patrick, so says you, and of course the three travelers. I am not necessarily saying they were not, or that they were. But some proof would go a long ways.

And are they real bona fide climbers? I mean, aside from hiking up some peaks. I suppose we may have different definitions of what makes a climber.

And yes, somebody who is new to the forum starting the post doesn't really, in my eyes at least, say a lot.

I suppose you had your reason(s) for starting this thread and I can only hope it was an honorable reason.

And come on dude...

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone on here has one.

Couldn't you come up with something more original?


EDIT

And why no climbing items in their list. Earlier on the thread somebody said why would villagers need climbing gear. Well, if they were setting out to rob these three, I'd think they would grab as much stuff as they could, climbing gear included. But again, I could be wrong.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 11:56am PT
If Jeremy A had posted it, it would be goldplated sticky.


What the hell does Jeremy have to do with this Patrick?
There went your cred with me.

absolutely nothing other than it is the only other thread i've psoted on and i had my post yanked. people love him and take whatever vile things he writes as law, but a new guy posts up a story copied from multiple sources on the web and somehow my motivations are under suspicion.

sorry i lost cred with you, I'll give you my nano puff.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:58am PT
OP - can you shed some light on how the public funds are being spent?

OMG, you classless f*#ks - STFU already.

This is private money between the giver and receiver and it's absolutely none of your f*#king business what happens to it.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
This whole thread has the makings of a TV sitcom or soap opera. I wonder what character I would be cast as?

Dufus in the corner wearing a cone hat. Okay, I'll take it. What's the pay?
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
I might have contributed if I had a reasonable idea of what it was used for.
I'm sure with your generous donation they could go buy a band-aid and a cracker. If you want to set conditions, that's between you and them. It would make you sound like a classless stingy controlling f*#k, though.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
Uhhhh....I'm confused.

Was this a solicitation for monetary help? Because I never saw a post with any kind of contact information, regardless of the thread title. Perhaps I missed it in all the name calling and such.

Was it a post to warn people about traveling in Peru? If that's the case then it seems to have been blown way out of proportion.

When this thread first hit, I didn't see anything in it that was worth 500+ posts of discussion. Seems kinda lame to me, IMO. Would rather see more posts about climbing then yet another thread with people screaming at each other over the internet. Looks like it's yet another ST round-robin bitch-fest with zero chance of any resolution or conclusion. Shame.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:08pm PT



TFPU Patrick C


if it wasnt you it would of been someone else.

Way to join the Fray!

Quite after the first post for some time then "BOOM" lays the hammer down with great humor.

Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:10pm PT


"I didn't see anything in it that was worth 500+ posts of discussion. Seems kinda lame to me, "



yet here you are.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Real climbers are checking out the FA of El Pilar del Sol Naciente.
Dick Erb

climber
June Lake, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Here is a magazine article about their rig and some notes from the first four thousand miles of their journey.

http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/off-road-expeditions/meg-and-jed-wolfrom-adventure-americas
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
maybe she should of listened or knott to her own advice


From the link above ( a feature article before the incident)

TCM: What would you say to someone who was fascinated by your trip through Central and South America and considering such a trip?

Meg: Don’t be scared. The media in the United States fills us with these negative thoughts and ideas about the countries south of the border. Sure, they have their bad areas and thugs, but so does the United States. I have been more scared riding a subway in Los Angeles than I have ever been traveling in a foreign country.

Don’t stay somewhere you don’t feel safe, don’t flash valuables or money around, and don’t do drugs as that means you having interactions with people who sell drugs, Just use your common sense in general and you will be fine. It is my belief and experience that people are primarily good.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
people love him and take whatever vile things he writes as law, but a new guy posts up a story copied from multiple sources on the web and somehow my motivations are under suspicion.

You're making a lot of assumptions there man.

Keep the nano puff. I couldn't wear something called a nano puff.

What in the heck did you say to get an individual post pulled? Must've been rich for a new guy. If Jeremy's posts are vile and they don't get pulled, yet one of your first ever posts gets pulled, what does that make it?

How about a thread on your climbing exploits before you jump right into the nasty stuff?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
PC said:
"Last i heard, everyone on Supertopo will get a brand-new lime-green nano puff and a kitten."
OMG you're cracking me up!

BTW, is the line to trade the lime-green nano puff and a kitten for hookers blow very long yet, cause I think I'm heading right over there before the stampede hits.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
To people asking if they are climbers, go to their blog, the answer is there and obvious.

Isn't it that ugly American trait of entitlement as well in demanding to know about how other people are spending money that legally came to them?

Edit: Who on here gave them money out of curiosity? Did you Bruce?
-Pat
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
Vegasclimber asks:

Was this a solicitation for monetary help? Because I never saw a post with any kind of contact information, regardless of the thread title.

I think many viewed the first post which states:


a solicitation for money since that link is a place one can contribute money. BTW, that link no longer appears to work.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 7, 2013 - 12:43pm PT

What in the heck did you say to get an individual post pulled? Must've been rich for a new guy. If Jeremy's posts are vile and they don't get pulled, yet one of your first ever posts gets pulled, what does that make it?

How about a thread on your climbing exploits before you jump right into the nasty stuff?

can't say, or I'll gets banzed again.
fair enough
fair enough
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Pat c. I know who you are...

Interesting quote from the truck article

Meg: We have been traveling for a little over five months at this point and we just made it to South America. We would like to travel for at least eight or nine more months. It all depends on how long we can make our money last. We have thought about stopping to work somewhere.

TCM: That’s the second time you mentioned money shaping the trip. Relatively speaking, you are young. How are you paying for this trip?

Meg: We saved money for about two years for this trip. We are just average people with average jobs. Jed is a carpenter and I am in marketing. We don’t have trust funds.

We live fairly cheap in the first place, so saving came pretty easily with steady jobs. We went out to eat less and didn’t take any other big vacations during this time. We had cheap rent. We learned that if you cut out the little unnecessary spending like cable and eating out, it is really easy to save.

Once you start seeing money in the bank it gets addictive. You just want to put more in. While saving, I never felt like we went without. Our biggest sacrifice was moving back in with roommates to cut living costs.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
^^^
Well said.

Had to be something that fired up a whole town of folks...
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
http://centropobladochaca.blogspot.mx/

If this was the village in question - 450 people population. 30 people is a mob. The village is the one Pallca on the list.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
5 gallon gas can and 5 gallons of gas = $120

Is it really that expensive????


Anyhoo... I don't travel in third world countries without a native guide. They know what to avoid, who to avoid, and who to pay off. I traveled in Morocco. It's dangerous x10 because I was not only an infidel, but also a woman. Because of my guide, I didn't have problems. I swear without him all hell would have broken loose.

AFS
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Very cool camper. I want one.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
All I have to say is that I'm feeling like a real luddite with my 2012 $450 laptop from Best Buy.

Admittedly it does everything I need a laptop to do, word processing, excel, net surfing, email, etc., but it must be missing some major kick ass features for the other $4,500.00, no?

Hell, I didn't even know anyone made a $5K laptop besides the nuclear hardened Mil-Spec Seal team specials???
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Sometimes you got to suck it up, go home and call it a day. I was in a bad car accident. No one paid my ticket home, my medical bills, etc. It sucked but that's part of life. I still have a shoulder that doesn't work right and a few traumatic memories of the person that died and hard memories of a person that was badly injured but hey... I'm alive and that really is good enough. I chose to get in that car, I chose that risk and the life afterwards is all mine. No one needs to pay for it, for the damages of my stuff. (I cracked the motherboard to my computer, my prescription glasses, a camera, etc.) Life happens.

AFS
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Crossing the dusty border from Kenya into Tanzania over a decade ago in a DHL package/shuttle van we were stopped and borded by three "soldiers" with ratty looking clothes and even more ratty looking AK's. One didn't even have a magazine in it.

They were smiling though and were checking "papers" and wanted money for processing. The amount was not discussed. I gave them the equiv. of $20.00 US, a good sum of money.

One much older woman(a white kenyan I believe) sitting towards the front refused to pay them anything and started to bitch and moan loudly. The soldier at the front of the van closed the door and racked the bolt on his AK. Their fingers were ALWAYS on the triggers. He was not smiling anymore.

Looking around the van there was nothing but more dishelved armed guys in various old army fatigues. We could have all disappeared in an instant.

A German couple sitting right behind the bitching woman jumped up to pay for her. She then refused and paid herself.

The three men smiled again and left.

There are stupid, desperate, and violent people everywhere on Earth, in every country.

Who knows what really happened. We probably never will. The Peru story reeks of bullshite but some parts might be true.

I just can't figure out who would fall for it and actually give $$$... That's amazing. Aside from help with plane tickets back home/passports/etc... who would ever actually ask strangers to replace their crap?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
So, you 'climbers' have made 40 posts to this stoopid thread in the time
there have been 2 responses to the FA of El Pilar del Sol Naciente
thread.
I will refrain from making a derogatory comment as it would be superfluous.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Maybe it's just me but hey... When I travel, I travel with things I can lose, things that if they gets stolen I'll be alright, etc. I never travel with stuff that would hurt me in the long run if it disappears.

Even when I went to Greece to see relatives... I did not bring my computer, or iPhone. I did not bring my wedding ring. I did bring an expensive camera but with the knowledge that if it goes, life will continue. That it was worth the risk to catch the memories. Now that we bought an iPad. I'll travel with it since replacing it is reasonable compared to the MacBook. Plus I have a ipad shuffle for the same reason. Tunes at low cost. If stolen, no worries. Plus being smaller, easier to hide, keep safe.

AFS
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
Sorry, Bruce, my bad. In this case it would be FOOKING AWESOME FIRST ASCENT!!! (They didn't use the coefficient of awesomeness)

edit - gud point DMT. It would seem be out of character to acknowledge incredible climbing here.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Why would someone respond to a thread that is merely a link to an off-site TR?

I too dislike TRs that are simply links to somewhere else. It's not that their trip, or ascent wasn't amazing, it's that they're not interested in participating personally here. I'd rather post to Jefe's boulder/dog thread, or some n00b's first 5.7 multi-pitch.

I will take a look at their gig though. For YOU Reilly, not for them....
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC

Jan 7, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Pat c. I know who you are...
The more and more OP posting here he looks like he belong to Truck Camper's forum.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
"Very cool camper. I want one."

I don't know how you think you can get it to fit onto your bike.....







Speaking of, anyone here seen or used the Cricket campers?

oh, Crowdit seems stalled.


Current Amount:
$4,780.90

Are all youse guys just sending the money to the other, unaccountable money place on Facebook?
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 7, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
The other Hella light is wired to a switch in the camper. It is super useful to see what that bump in the night is. We feel far safer leaving the camper for midnight pee sessions with this super bright Hella light

Hmmm, knott exactly low profile...

With $5000 being spent on a laptop (as opposed to say, implants and crowns for allegedly missing teeth),
may I suggest something like this as an upgraded Adventure Americas vehicle, complete with escort?


With the ability to raise cash at the rate of over $20,000 in a mere few days, cost should be no problem,
knott to mention the luxury of continuing the adventure for several more months as originally planned...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Then onto Argentina with the green beret buddies in the Hummer for another ass whoopin and fund raisin' Whoop! Whoop! Round 2, ding.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Hey Locker - I can come over and beat your ass to make it legit. Haha! :)
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 7, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Why would someone respond to a thread that is merely a link to an off-site TR?

The OP was merely a link to an off-site ...trip report!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 7, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
This thread is bringing out the worst in people.

If you don't give a sh#t and want to donate, don't.

They could have made some mistakes, but no one posting here knows enough to say that. Whatever the did, they had enough real stones thrown at them and suffered enough injury without needing the stones and arrows of Supertopo.

This horse has been well beaten.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
"Hey Locker - I can come over and beat your ass to make it legit. Haha! :) "

Careful, Locker would probably pay you for that service. In fact, you might consider taking up a collection first to see what the numbers shake out to. ha ha!

ie. "Once my kickintheassstarter™ hits $10,000 the gig gets funded and Locker gets his ass kicked"....LOL.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Where in Wyoming are thesr guys from?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 7, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
From Jackson...
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Careful, Locker would probably pay you for that service. In fact, you might consider taking up a collection first to see what the numbers shake out to. ha ha!

ie. "Once my kickintheassstarter™ hits $10,000 the gig gets funded and Locker gets his ass kicked"....LOL.

*Snicker*
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Jackson... Really lots of poor folks out there. Yes, I am snickering. I sat at an outdoor restaurant in that town and heard so much bragging about climbing this or that. It was way over done. I've been around some great climbers and none ever bragged so much. Then again, what do I know... Luckily no one care or noticed little ole' me. :) Life is Real Good.

AFS

P.S. It is really sad and horrible for them to go through such a traumatic experience. I do not wish them or anyone in fact any harm... I just think they should count their blessings and make a run for home. It was a reality check that didn't cost them their lives. They are the lucky ones. Recouping their stolen gear, looking for revenge, compensation, justice... Don't bother, be happy you have your life. It's not Kansas... It's not the U.S. which means laws are different out there. Always remember that when you travel. We are spoiled here.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 7, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
Where in Wyoming are these guys from?

The Sheep Ranch, where else.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
I wanted to make a comment but I'm so far behind I have to give it up.

I've been to Peru, I've spent mega time in Mexico.


Nothing here makes any sense.

You people are crazy.

Has the Soup tope reached new heights of absurdity?

Does Jeremy have his site up yet?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
I wonder what's go'in on over at Mtn. Project.

It must make more sense than this
BS.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
Hmm...I think I'll hold off on sending any $.




Since when is a lap top an essential item?

....and especially a $5000 one?


I don't think I'm in their class. The 1%?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 7, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
OK, I didn't give it up.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
I don't recall seeing a $5000 price mentioned. The original laptop was $4000 with software (and this on an insurance claim type of form (from what I could tell)). The price of the replacement wasn't mentioned in what I read.

I can say, for people of my daughter's generation (23) being without internet access is worse then not having air to breathe. Considered a human right these days. :)

(by the way, I've always wondered, is "Dee ee" a male or female name?)
mackenzie74

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jan 7, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Disturbing news. But that's how the world is. Sh#t happens.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Y'all seen this?


http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2008/08/11/bird-scientist/
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Jan 8, 2013 - 01:07am PT
[quote]Y'all seen this?
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2008/08/11/bird-scientist[/quote]

Sounds like they are moving north, be careful
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:03am PT
Opinions from the blogosphere and then judgment. Why get riled up? You know the truth?
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 8, 2013 - 04:45am PT
Seems self evident. You post a bunch of comments off some page that agrees with you and it's supposed to mean something? Opinions?? Folks that weren't there just like you. But you all KNOW. For sure. carry on.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 04:47am PT
A very different conversation going on on MP:

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/help-climbers-attacked-in-peru/107950688__4#a_107955933
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 04:57am PT
Patrick, where are they now? Are they still continuing their journey?
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Jan 8, 2013 - 05:07am PT


Damn , that Mountain Project sure is boring!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 8, 2013 - 09:50am PT
Slaton said:
" Seems self evident. You post a bunch of comments off some page that agrees with you and it's supposed to mean something? Opinions?? Folks that weren't there just like you. But you all KNOW. For sure. carry on."

Riley replied:
" i don't understand... "



Clearly. However, the rest of us do. You might try re-reading it slowly a few times and see if that works better for you. :-)
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 8, 2013 - 10:21am PT
"Hey Locker - I can come over and beat your ass to make it legit"...

I will be naked and awaiting your arrival...

Mind you...

I've been real sick for quite some time now and have lost a LOT of weight so you MAY not be able to find me...

To help, I'll tie some 4mm accessory cord to my NUTS and attach it to the doorknob...

Just give it a GUD yank as soon as you enter and then follow the SCREAMING...

Thanks!!!...

Ha! :)
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Anyone know how many sites the original "Help Climbers in Peru" OP was essentially cross-posted to with the following link?

https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed

The OP on MP is very similar to this one, yet from a different person. That person appears to be a member since 2008 (as opposed to one day here). Was there some sort of orchestrated effort to spam various sites with a link for $$ as opposed to simply linking the "Nightmare in Peru" blog post from the Adventure Americas website?

It would be interesting to know who the people are who basically just posted that donation link around the internet, and how well they are known in real life. We know nothing about "Patrick Compton" (almost certainly knott his real name), other than the fact that he appears to have a huge hard-on for Jeremy A.
hootowl

Mountain climber
VA
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:28am PT
I have been reading this story since page 1 because it's fascinating. At first I thought Riley was jumping to conclusions, "rushing to judgment," and being an all-around dick. But here is an account of the incident written in an email by Jed Wolfrom to one of his friends that reads substantially differently from the one posted by his sister and linked on the first page of this LONG thread. Riley cut a sentence or two of this email from Jed in one of his previous posts, but I thought the whole thing was worth preserving. Reading this, I have to say that Riley's scepticism turns out to have been well-placed. I am more gullible I guess. I felt sorry for the travelers for the first couple of pages of this thread, then started questioning their motives, and now feel that Riley was right all along! Jed's description of the incident pasted below is from the comments to http://www.planetjh.com/news/A_109001.aspx

Here is a private message from Jed. Notice how aggressive his version of the story is, while his sister's story is more desperate. Jed and his crew needs to stay in Wyoming. Here it is: Hello yall , hope your new years was well. Ours was not so good and is pretty much your worse nightmare of travel. After hiking for 4 days in the rain and snow we were heading back to cusco and decided to pull down a dirt road to camp for the night. This was no different then what we had done for thee last 9 months. After drinking a beer two dudes showed up on bikes and we started talking to them, they seemed cool , still nothing out of the usual. By now it was 7 and dark and we noticed a lot of lights coming from the hills and the two guys started whisling to the folks in the hills. In 5 minutes we were surroneded by 20 villagers who were demanding our papers. Not being police I said no , they freaked oout and we jumped into the truck and hualed ass out of their as they through rocks at the trucks. The road dead ended about ten minutes later in a small town . we asked if we could camp in the town and they said no so we turned around. At this point we are pretty freaked out because we have to head back too the mob to get to the road. About 5 minutes down the road we hit oour first road block were the villagers had piled rocks and ssticks in the road. I rammed the yota threw and gunned it around thee corner all wile villagers where throwing rocks at the car . I hit the next road block in a couple of minutes that was made up of three large stones, none rammable so I stoped and yelled tranquillo no prolemo and tried to talk too theem. They came to the drivers side and smashed the window in with a rock and split jennys head open. I gunned it and tried to drive around. Unfourtunatly I hit a 3 foot deep ditch and nearly rrolled the truck. We where stuck. Soon we were swarmed and the villagers began smashing windows lights, everthing. We grabed oour 2 cans or bear spray and jumped of the truck scared sh#t less. We sprayed down a bunch of folks but there where to many. Soon we were being smashed with rocks and sticks soo we ran into the fields. Being chased. We ran and fought for about half an hour intilll we were surrounded by about 30 people . At this point i was nocked out and we were all badly beten. The villlages grabed us and took us to there village were we were surroned and interrogated for the rest of the night at gun point they were trying to decide if they should kill us. at one point they shot just past our heads. I thoougth I was about to watch my sister and wife get killed many times that night. We were wipped and beaten through out the night and at some point they made us sign a confesionn that we were drunk and crashed our car. By day brake they pushed us off to our car and 15 villagers waited for the cops to show up so that we would tell them that we had in fact ccrashed our car. While we were being beaten they had rran sacked the truk and stole about 10,000 dollars worth of our sh#t and most of our documents and bank cards. Windows all smashed lights smashed and everything f*#ked. One fake village cope showed up and interrogated us and tried to get us to return to the village I refused and at this point I was f*#king scared were dead again. Thank god 4 real cops showed up about 10 minutess later wiith semi autos . never been so happy to see Peruvian cops in my llife. We played along with the yes wee were drunk and crashed the car but thee cops new better. It was obvoiuus the truck had been ran sacked and the dumb as villagers had not removed the road block. Thee cops made the villagers push me oout of the ditch , f*#king yota drove out, amazing vehicle wait till you see how stuck wee were. The cops drove us out to a local sh#t hole hospital. We have about a hundered stiches between the three of us. I have 2 and half nocked out teeth, a massive black eye a destroyed lip a small fracture in the base oof my skull and a sh#t ton oof bruises.meg has a bunch of stiches in her head and so does jenny and both are covered with scratches and bruises from being beaten and whipped . we are all inn a lot of pain and have spent the last two days in the hospital. We are in cusco now and bought a computer yesterday so we can communicate. At this point I don’t really no what is happening with the rest of our trip. We have to stay here intilll thusday to do police stuff, then we are all going to lima to get jenny a new passport so she can fly home. The stupid f*#ks could not open our lock box so we have our passports but nothing else but two hidden atm cards. We have decided that we are done with the third world so no Bolivia for us. We will just head to chile . at this point we will decided if we are stable enough to finish this trip. We might just head to bueanous aires and ship home. We don’t know. I am not sure about Dakar, I want to go but I might need to come back to do some moore police stuff. I just want some f*#king village suffereiing to go on now. So I will do what I can to make sure that happens. I have very little faith iin Peruvian cops but there seems to be a lot of pissed ooff people about this one. I also don’t know how long its going to take to get the truck back as it is being held hostage in front of the police station about two hours from hear in the middle of town with no windows, should be interesting see whats left in the truck when we get it back. Thenn of course we have to get all new windows and fix some stuff. So yeah we are happy to be alive but really f*#ked up mentally and physically. Both the girls woke up numerous times last night screaming. Not sure if camping will happen again for a while. Meg agrees that hanging around a lot of positive people at the Dakar might do some good but we cant commit yet. At this point we are just day to day. I have never had to fight for my life and ii have never seen such violence and I have never felt like I was going to die like that. This is your mothers worse nightmare. I have not told my mom the full extent, she thinks our truck was broken into. I don’t want her to worry needlessly about my sister intill she is home. So she will find out when jenny returns to the states. So iam trying to keep the face book lo key for now. Megs mom knows all. For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys but I don’t think that will happen. Any ho carefull where you camp and I will fill you in on all the gory details latter. jed
Jed's bad friend






"For now I would be happy to go back to the village and do some killing with soe oof my green beray buddys".....Faced against an attitude like Jed's, I could probably rouse a good number of angry villagers too. Hope his account goes as public as Jenny's, because THAT is bullsh#t, folks. Two first-hand accounts, and still no reasoning or guesses as to how this violence was ignited??
Andrew

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Is there any credible evidence to show that Jed actually wrote that?

Seems hard to believe, and it's shockingly illiterate for a 30-something year old.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:49am PT
and it's shockingly illiterate for a 30-something year old.

Them Nigerians aren't all well edificated.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:50am PT
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!1111
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2013 - 11:52am PT
The OP on MP is very similar to this one, yet from a different person. That person appears to be a member since 2008 (as opposed to one day here). Was there some sort of orchestrated effort to spam various sites with a link for $$ as opposed to simply linking the "Nightmare in Peru" blog post from the Adventure Americas website?

It would be interesting to know who the people are who basically just posted that donation link around the internet, and how well they are known in real life. We know nothing about "Patrick Compton" (almost certainly knott his real name), other than the fact that he appears to have a huge hard-on for Jeremy A.

I am a real person. Are you, Mr. Hardman Knott?

I have never had or seen such a reaction to simply starting a thread by linking to another website. Is this some sort of taliban-level activity to people on this site?

I was going to put some personal info and photos, but with paranoid people like you and the others a few pages back have made me re-think that.

I thought people like myself that live out of a van and climb most days would be the paranoid ones, but this site has opened my eyes to paranoid delusions that inhabit the cubicle, Matrix-land many of you inhabit.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Yep, my name is Hardman Knott, Mr "Patrick Compton".

Usually when people create new accounts here and immediately commence flaming someone, they are banned.
Knott sure how or why you fell through the cracks. I might have to look into that, LOL
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
the reason I am the OP is simple: climbers were hurt in a foreign country and asked for help. give it or don't, I could care less. i don't have money to contribute, but thought I could at least inform people here.

I have to say I have never seen such a mean-spirited, reactionary bunch than many on this site. If you don't beleive the narrative and blogs and such, then don't. but to insist that they are lying from the comfort of your leather arm chair is just sad.

sorry if this makes me Osama, Mr. Knott. I'll run my future posts by you to see if they are aok with your paranoid delusion meter.
LOL
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
I have to say I have never seen such a mean-spirited, reactionary bunch than many on this site.

-written by a leg-humper under the pseudonym "Patrick Compton", whose 2nd-ever post here was flaming a well-liked forum member in very crude fashion, and was apparently deleted because it referenced drinking bodily fluids.

Stay classy.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
whatever dude, you stay classy.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
can't say, or I'll gets banzed again.
fair enough
fair enough

edit: again?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Nobody rocks harder than the Jefe.
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Myself I personally believe their story is credible.

They have nothing to gain by making up lies.

They have a lot of family and friends in the states that would jeopardize their actions of making up a bunch of lies for monetary gains.

They would be verbally flogged and stoned to death if they did that.

As I've explained earlier in this thread I've had direct experience with the Peruvian natives with some of their actions.

In some parts there they will kill you because you're an American.

We had body guards there, 2 whole truck loads of dudes with automatic weapons.

In Columbia we had half our crew kidnapped by the local police and held ransom for money.

Unfortunately for those fools we had a Govt. liaison officer with us who got them immediately released when he came upon the police for fear they would lose their jobs and face a firing squad. :-)

When we were in Mali same thing, police showed up and tried to nail us with some bullsh!t extortion and there we had a govt. liaison officer.

They fled immediately upon seeing his identity.
sempervirens

climber
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Riley,
He's telling you that you made a lot of dumb ass statements on this thread. Go back and read them; they are full of assumptions on which you base conclusions. Sure, there are a lot of spoiled ingnorant Americans travelling in So. America but you don't know the three people in question so judging them based on their being from Jackson Hole is pure prejudice.

Even if an assumption is found later to be correct does that justify judging a person before knowing if the assumption is correct? Look up a definition of prejudice.

Does that help any?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Prior to going on my first trip to SA I read books on traveling in the third world (the interwebs were in their infancy so I had to read actual books). I learned the usual stuff, keep a low profile, don't cruise around sketchy cities at night, etc.

My first night I went out and totally raged, hooked up with a local girl and drunkenly made my way across the city to my hotel at like 3 in the morning! I hardly spoke any Spanish at the time. So friggen stupid, but males in their early 20s don't always make the best decisions.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
My first night I went out and totally raged, hooked up with a local girl and drunkenly made my way across the city to my hotel at like 3 in the morning! I hardly spoke any Spanish at the time. So friggen stupid, but males in their early 20s don't always make the best decisions.

Whoa, that's me in Manila, PI!

Fortunately, I was careful enough in 30 other countries to still be alive today.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 8, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Climbers should be good at third world travel - you have to plan how to get from point A to point B every time, and have a clear path to bailing and reversing your moves and never be in a place you can't escape from. I've been in all sorts of remote parts of Colombia and no cop would ever try to kidnap me. A few years ago a cop tried to extort us and I came down hard on him, and know I caused him some problems.

Only time I ever really felt I was over my head was crossing the border from Pak into Afghanistan in 2003. In Jalalabad our bus parked and some guy was sticking his tongue at me through the window from outside. But he didnt come on the bus and I had made friends with the guy behind me who had an AK. Then another time I went to visit an old castle fort in a suburb of Kabul and had to run for my life (literally) from the bandits that lived in it.

Maybe this is just a skill some people have and some people don't. I've encountered theives but crowds like this were always my protectors.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jan 8, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
hilarious story of some other tourists in Peru -its got everything! projectile vomiting, boulders on the road, angry Inca chicks, and police!

http://www.trippytraveller.com/a-few-hours-in-peru/


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 8, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
I am curious as to why these three are referred to as "climbers"?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 8, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Lol.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 8, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Unfortunately they didn't put all the mountains and surf breaks in upscale suburbs, so some of us have to go places that get a little sketchy after nightfall.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
I was thinking the same thing Locker.

I remember taking a wrong turn in New Orleans (before Katrina) and getting culture shock. Please note that I've traveled before that in third world countries, Africa, etc. and never suffered such a mind altering reality.

What I saw were blocks of houses with dirt floors, no glass windows. Trash all over the place, obviously never picked up, never serviced. A real third world slum right here on U.S. soil. I never expected that. Ever. Especially being so close to the fancy tourist streets of New Orleans.

I knew we had poor in our country, but I didn't realize how poor. Folks here in California still have plumbing, floors, a fridge. These poor souls didn't. I honestly didn't know that was possible here in the U.S. Boy was I very wrong.

Yes, and the natives watching us drive by didn't look friendly. I am sure if we had broken down or simply stopped, I would be another statistic, one of the missing people that are never found.



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
I am curious as to why these three are referred to as "climbers"?

Because they are climbers. They climb rocks and mountains. With ropes and stuff.

There are many climbing pictures on their blog before the attack.













Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
"the reason I am the OP is simple: climbers were hurt in a foreign country and asked for help"

Well Patrick Compton, in an interview with a paper in Jackson, Jenny claimed they never asked for the fund to be set up.

So if they didn't ask for the money, who did?


Also, t*r, we don't need Grey's Anatomy gif's. We get your opinion on this already.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
Dave, nice blog link up thread. That's how things should turn out. Discomfort and inconvenience but amused understanding at the same time. Of course, he only soiled himself and didn't lose any teeth.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
the reason I am the OP is simple: climbers were hurt in a foreign country and asked for help"

Well Patrick Compton, in an interview with a paper in Jackson, Jenny claimed they never asked for the fund to be set up.

So if they didn't ask for the money, who did?

That was also in the Jackson newspaper in the same article.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=9416

Adams said the stranded group didn’t ask anyone to launch the fundraising campaign. It was created by friends and family in the U.S.

More in a second article.

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=9411

A friend, Rachel Segien, has set up a fund to aid them online, and the effort is in its second phase at CrowdTilt.com. An initial crowd-funding effort, which saw 265 contributors giving $15,787, was closed so the trio could access the funds.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:05pm PT



graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
All of those who claimed they weren't climbers... we'll see how many of them are willing to admit they were wrong.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
Glad you posted those GC. I found the questioning of whether they were climbers odd. And even if they weren't climbers, they are still fellow human beings.
AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
As with everything there is probably another side to this story, but blaming the victims for being Patagonia poster models is wrong. Asking for money seems to be the new norm now, as is carrying enough electronic equipment to keep you wired and blog about your every move, if they can get people to pay to replace their gear and maybe even make enough money to continue their trip more power to them.

sht happens, anyone who has traveled in a third world country knows this, hopefully they will be okay. The bad luck for these folks is that when they first drove off they didn’t drive back the way they came and jump on a main road. This could make a good movie (with a little Hollywood, "the hills have eyes" twist), more entertaining than watching a guy saw off his forearm.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
I dunno granite, is that the Black Corridor I see? I only see more accusations of unfettered wealth and opulence in their future.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Thanks, I found them through the blog. http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/nightmare-in-peru/

There are many hundreds, maybe thousands of pics.

We like to think that bad things won't happen to us. This makes it easy to blame victims because it allows us to tell ourselves that it would never happen to us--we are too smart.

I see people here congratulating themselves on their superior sense and skills. They forget that they were also just lucky.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
yea, it is really outrageous to question their story. Surely team iphone5 is planning to repay the cash after they return, right?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Black Corridor I see? I only see more accusations of unfettered wealth and opulence in their future.

Yes, but everyone here can recognize it for the same reason I can -- we've all climbed there ourselves! This was just one stop of many on their way to South America.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
. Asking for money seems to be the new norm now, as is carrying enough electronic equipment to keep you wired and blog about your every move, if they can get people to pay to replace their gear and maybe even make enough money to continue their trip more power to them.

Yes, and many of these people start asking for money before they even leave home. They ask for donations and sponsors to help pay for their trip. Climbing expeditions are the best example of this.

People on THIS FORUM complaining about publicly soliciting funds for the cause of the day is LAUGHABLE.

Word.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
+1 for the DMT irony post
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
All of those who claimed they weren't climbers... we'll see how many of them are willing to admit they were wrong.
graniteclimber, I can admit that I was wrong assuming that they are not climbers.
My wrong perception was based upon they did not claim lost of $3000 climbing gear in the list of stolen items
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
MORE GIFs!!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Wow, that dude used to have nice teeth.........
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
I know granite, I was being tongue in cheek. On a side note I remember getting absolutely humbled on a route in the black corridor well below my ability once, that one still stings for me.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
All that envy and anger over her having an iphone--they fit in your pocket and I doubt that she was waving it around and flaunting when the attack happened.

A DSLR is electronic gear that is more valuable than an iphone and I'll bet a lot of you take one with your on your trips to places like Peru.

I know granite, I was being tongue in cheek.

I saw that. My comment was for those who would not recognize that you were being ironic.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Hey Dingbat, I don't know if you're pointing this at me but to be clear I say ask away. If however you fail to disclose exactly what the funds are for and offer no accountability to that effect I will personally rip you a new as#@&%e.

Bruce, don't read the Largo fundraising thread. If you do, you will have to rip someone a new as#@&%e, and they'll probably kick your ass.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
^^^^
Best comeback I've seen in a long time.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 8, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
It's interesting that they haven't updated their blog since thanking everyone for the money??
Scotty E

climber
AB- land of canuck rednecks
Jan 8, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
The best part of this thread is when Riley, desperate for traction, starting citing newschoolers.com. Because the opinions of a bunch of (barely) post-adolescent boys is solid proof of just about whatever you need it to be.

Awesome stuff.
WBraun

climber
Jan 8, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Stupid Americans don't believe anything until they see it on television.

By the the time television gets a hold of the story it's half baked bullsh!t .....
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 8, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Kndergartners vicariously attacked on South Park thread!

Get Oprah on the phone!

Paging Maury Povich!

Venezuelans deny everything!
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jan 8, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
"Stupid Americans don't believe anything until they see it on television."

Nice! Please add this to the book of WB quotes!
Erik
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 8, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
What a cesspool of angry, bitter, judgmental, spiteful, hateful posts. Reconfirming why I want little to no part in this inter-web thingie.

I s'pose I got some benefit out of skimming through this thread...I know who I'd rather not share a beer or a camp fire with.

Y'all enjoy yourselves.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 8, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
What a cesspool of angry, bitter, judgmental, spiteful, hateful posts. Reconfirming why I want little to no part in this inter-web thingie.

And now you are part of it with an angry, bitter, and judgmental post of your own. And by responding, I'm up one point myself.

The only way you win is not to play.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Jan 8, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Lol. Ok fair enough. I don't really FEEL angry or bitter. But I better stop. I might be digging...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Best thread of the year?
spectreman

Trad climber
Jan 8, 2013 - 11:53pm PT

Riley the Pathetic Whiner wrote:

"this place is beneath me..
f*#k it"

What a little cry baby bitch. Please leave since this place is "beneath you". Things would be so much better without your presence.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 12:35am PT
Riles, if you leave the Nigerians win! Don't go!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Best thread of the year?

So far, I guess. The best one last year was definitely the one about rappelling El Cap.
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Off the front page??

No way.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed

Great gig if you can get hooked up.

Peru fund: Help Jenny, Meghan and Jed

Current Amount:
$5,855.90

*** UPDATE 1/4/13 12pm: This fund has been reopened for additional donations. Jenny, Jed and Meghan will receive the initial transfer of funds today. Thank you for your support. Please feel free to share this link to others.


As many people are already aware, Jenny, Jed and Meghan have been through a very traumatic experience in Peru. They were attacked, beaten and held against their will.


Thankfully, they are alive and safe and recovering in Cuzco. They have suffered injuries, but will all be able to recover fully physically. The link here is an account of the incident written up by Jenny to an agency who is set up to help travelers who experience violence abroad. They have yet to hear back from them.

We have had a lot requests from people who want to help, most importantly, please share this link and story to anyone who will listen to help expedite their journey home and protect other travelers from the same thing."


Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Patrick, Riley isn't a doctor, he's a very hard working ER nurse and not a 1 percenter (that I know of) that you say he is.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2013 - 12:31am PT
oops, my bad
enjoimx

Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:37am PT
At first I thought you were an insensitive jerk Riley, unable to take a story at face value... But your long explanation of your reasoning actually makes sense and I am beginning to believe there is either a scam here or some manipulation and definitely missing facts about the "climbers'" story. Mainly the news blackout is interesting to me. I haven't read the whole 700 posts but has their story been validated by anyone?

At any rate thx for posting your long reasoning Riley, you make more sense now.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 10, 2013 - 12:46am PT
Kiwis have wings, too, but they don't fly either.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 10, 2013 - 03:30am PT
I was seriously considering making a donation to help these hapless adventurers replenish their stock of expensive toys, but then I remembered that I'm still making do with my old iPhone 4 with a screen that's been shattered for over 3 months...
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:30am PT
The Supertopo is not triage. By and large, outside of war zones and medical units, much of the world is not triage. This isn't life and death. No lives will be lost if you withhold from snapping to judgment.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
The crowdlit campaign has been closed for days.

update on the 7th.
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=9416

update on the 8th in peruvian news,
http://www.radiouniversalcusco.com.pe/noticias/7530-policia-inicia-investigaciones-por-presunta-agresion-fisica-a-turistas-norteamericanos-en-el-distrito-de-ocongate-provincia-de-quispicanchi
the truck was towed to cusco to start the investigation.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
I don't think anyone contested whether the injuries were legit, but what their role was in receiving/causing them and the whole money thing....
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
actually a lot of people claimed this was a made up scam. I think the conversation over their role was a valid one. One thing lost in the chatter though is that they never directly asked the public for money.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
"Some cop departments in the U.S. do the same thing and make you sign a release before they "drop charges" and release you."

Any examples of that actually occurring that you can point to?
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Again, I posted a link to the population of the village back in the thread, 450 people. 30 people is not the whole village, not even close.

I would still visit Peru in a heartbeat, this story doesn't deter me at all.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 10, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Peru is great- one my favorite SA countries. I'd fly there today and go to that very village.

I've been all over down there and have not once been asked for my "papers" by anyone not in uniform.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
"Some cop departments in the U.S. do the same thing and make you sign a release before they "drop charges" and release you."

Any examples of that actually occurring that you can point to?

atchafalaya, I wrote up a long response to your question, hit send and got this:

Error - Forum Thread Not Found
Unfortunately the forum topic thread you've requested can not be found.

The original topic post may have been deleted by the thread's original author or by this website.

The thread is no longer available for reply.

I'm not gong to re-type my response but they are called release-dismissal agreements. Not common in California but more common in some other states. Not always enforceable.

See http://www.aele.org/law/2008LRMAR/2008-3MLJ101.pdf
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 10, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Really? Deleted?

Must have been a glitch in the matrix

Edit Nice tip Karl. Thanks
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 10, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Sometimes you can retrieve all the lost text in a situation like that just by hitting the "Back" button

peace

Karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
A newspaper in Peru confirms that the attack happened.

http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate

Google translation:

Cusco: American tourists were attacked by peasants Ocongate

Directorate of Foreign Trade and Tourism realized the fact based on police information, but said no formal complaint

A group of American tourists was attacked by several residents of the rural community of Pallca, in the district of Ocongate Quispicanchi province, Cusco , the night of December 29.

The correspondent of The Trade Area, Ralph Zapata, reported that the Department of Foreign Trade and Tourism of Cusco confirmed the beating from information from Ocongate police station, but said that did not enter any formal complaint at the above address .

Apparently, tourists entered the community, were not identified and there were problems with the language. Farmers have mistaken the rustlers.

One side of the story is told by Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom, one of the assaulted, in a blog. She noticed that other people are brutally beaten Palmer Joseph Doherty Wolfrom and Meghan Moore.

According to chronicles, were also stripped of their documents and belongings valued at thousands of dollars. The publication says it all happened after they tried to park your vehicle.

He claims that, without further explanation, the unit was locked and suddenly began to rain stones. Subsequently, although the occupants abandoned the truck, the persecution continued.

"There were at least 30 people and chased us throwing stones [...] We whipped and beaten for several hours between interrogation sessions," he says. It is not known if people arrested.

An American Expat living in Peru comments:

What reason do you have to doubt their account? It is reported in the account that the villagers communicated by cell phones which is surprising for such a remote location but I suppose it is just possible.

The Comercio article says they were confused with abigeos (cattle thieves) though it doesn't say where that info comes from. Cattle theft was an increasing problem when I worked in the Andahuayals/Ayacucho region in the first part of the last decade. In a typical district where I worked about half of the animals would be owned by a small number richer families. Most of their wealth was in their cattle from which they keep their relatively higher earnings (still low by US/European standards) so they are very keen to guard their assets. The other half of the animals would be owned by a great many poorer people. The loss of their animals (they may only have three or four animals) can result in a complete loss of revenue and destitution for their families. People would come in trucks from towns/cities and steal large numbers of cattle in one night. It was a major problem and would excite massive passions in people. The police were pretty useless to deal with this as typically you would have say two policemen covering a massive area. They would see the problem as something they couldn't possibly deal with.

So villagers would take it on themselves to defend themselves. Whilst I was there the government was actually encouraging them to buy guns for their guards. In smaller communities where police would not be present and would seldom visit the local authorities (campezino groups including presidente etc) would see themselves as the de facto law enforcement authority and would see it as their right to ask outsiders for ID documents. Unfortunatly as in any vigilanty type organisation there will be cases where groups beat, throw stones, shoot first and then ask questions later and innocent people will be injured/killed on occasions with this sort of system.

There can also be a lot of ignorance in these communities. I know that people in some villagers thought I was a pistacho ( a white foreigner who killed local people for human grease!) and I worked with a foreign archeological group and I know a section of some villagers thought they were only their to steal their gold and silver from huacos to take back to Europe.

But beleiving white foreigners are cattle rustlers? That is a type of ignorance I have never come across. It is possible that suspicions of cattle theft is just being used as an excuse for a criminal gang who have gained control of a campezino group. I have to say that that would be very very rare. All community campezino groups and especially presidentes de comunidades treated me with politeness and respect and were hospitable and welcoming. I never came across anything like this.

It should be looked into further and those responsibile brought to justice. Even if they did think they were defending cattle it is no excuse for this sort of behaviour. They need to learn that they cannot put themselves above the law even though in these areas they might see themselves as the only law there is.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
http://elcomercio.pe/actualidad/1518317/noticia-cusco-turistas-estadounidenses-fueron-agredidos-campesinos-ocongate

Read the comments to the article. Peruvians are a lot more willing to accept that an attack happened then people on this thread.

Riley, I have a feeling that you and a few others are going to have eat a lot of crow. Just sayin...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
Three months ago in Cusco.

Three helicopters were destroyed in the attack on the airfield in Cusco province

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-19858757
Peru rebels burn helicopters at jungle airfield

Three helicopters were destroyed in the attack on the airfield in Cusco province
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories

Major rebel killed in Peru clash
Peruvian troops killed by rebels
Peruvian troops liberate hostages
Left-wing Shining Path rebels in Peru have burned three helicopters used by a private gas consortium, officials say.

The rebels carried out the attack in the central region of Cusco - the same area where they kidnapped a group of gas workers in April.

The Shining Path has been severely weakened since it started its insurgency in the 1980s.

However remnants continue to be active in parts of the country and have allied themselves with drug traffickers.

The attack in the early hours of Saturday happened at the airfield in Kiteni, in the jungle region of Cusco, close to the only natural gas pipeline in the country.

No-one was injured or abducted, the military said. It is not clear why the rebels attacked the airstrip.

Local media said the rebels may have been trying to ambush a military patrol, and when they failed, decided to attack the airstrip instead.

Following the incident, the consortium Transportadora de Gas del Peru (TGP) said it would suspend all maintenance work in the region.

"We trust that the state will provide the resources and take the steps necessary to reestablish security in the area," TGP said in a statement.

'War contribution'
In April, a group of 36 gas workers was briefly kidnapped by the Shining Path in the same area.

The rebels had reportedly demanded a "war contribution" from the gas workers' employer.

The Peruvian army has sent reinforcements to the area to protect the airfield.

The Maoist Shining Path rebel group posed a major challenge to the Peruvian state in the 1980s and early 1990s, but is now reduced to small gangs involved in cocaine trafficking.

More than a dozen members of the security forces have been killed in clashes with the rebels so far this year.

And while the government says it has defeated the rebels in their stronghold in the Alto Huallaga Valley, the guerrilla group has mounted a series of successful attack in Peru's south-eastern Apurimac and Ene valleys, where much of the country's coca is grown.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Comments from http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3370-report-three-american-tourists-brutally-attacked-in-cusco-province/:

Commented By: Javier Salazar
On: January 5, 2013. 4:29 pm

I'm writing down my comments I put in their Blog. For some reason they banned. I've just read about your sad history. I'm from Peru and Peru is not a safe place to go out off the tourist trail, I'm so sorry you didn't know it. Currently we have social uprising in places not related with tourism and there are many places even local Peruvian would never dare to go! (I'm not aware about what is happening in Ocongate region but for instance, the government has banned informal mining and many indigenous communities are involved in this economic activity. However the government is giving indigenous land in concession to foreign companies). I regret you didn't tak a Quechua speaker guide with you for visiting those remote areas. Due to the number of indigenous people attacking it was a bad idea to use bear spray. Indigenous people are totally different from Peruvian people living in cities, in 2009, 23 policemen were kidnapped and killed by indigenous people during a road block: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Peruvian_political_crisis Just few months ago 3 engineers were kidnapped by the Awajun community: (Spanish) http://peru.com/actualidad/mi-ciudad/wilfredo-pedraza-comunidad-awajun-libero-trabajadores-secuestrados-cajamarca-noticia-100414 Hey guys you are lucky to be alive! Did you visited the South American explorers Club before going that route? They are based in Cusco and they have updated and reliable information about Cusco surroundings. Dear travelers Peru is not safe out off beaten track, do not go to remote areas without local guides, If you local people from remote areas prompt you to show your documents, show your passport copies and ask to speak with the Presidente de la Comunidad in a very respectful manner (you are dealing with your lives!). There are many NGO working for indigenous communities in Peru and they will pay lawyers to tell the Peruvian authorities that this was a cultural confrontation. Again I want to demonstrate all my solidarity to you and my hope for a soon recovery.

Commented By: K. Michael VerKamp
On: January 8, 2013. 10:30 pm

I've been living and traveling to very remote communities in Peru for seven years. I'm Irish, American, and most recently Peruvian. I host visitors from more than 20 different countries in our wind turbine program, providing rural electrification. This all comes down to one thing - cultural sensitivity training. You can not expect remote indigenous communities to have the same "norms" (such as uniforms, or "police"). Also, even if they spoke Spanish (I do) in general the indigenous communities have an extremely difficult time understanding foreign accents. In these communities they are the authority, you are the visitor, and have to abide by there demands. They are generous and kind, if rightfully suspicious of any outsider, especially in such an unusual vehicle. I am certain of one thing, if they had a Peruvian guide with them, this never would have happened. The whole thing is just plane sad.

pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
http://www.trippytraveller.com/a-few-hours-in-peru/ road blocks and thrown rocks.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
There are a variety of comments, here are some of the ones granite references. Also the author referred to them as campesinos, farmers or peasants, a very common word often used by the villagers themselves. I am not saying it is without racial connotations, translating racial connotations between languages is very complex, but it doesn't exactly carry the connotation commoner has and it shouldn't be done with google translate.

A few comments:
Whaaaaaaaattttttttt? Ultimamente no se que es lo que pasa en Cusco pero se observa mucha violencia. Ahi tenemos: Echarate, el asesinato de un alumno del colegio y ahora turistas.

-siempre fueron asi. un repaso x la historia no cuesta mucho.
-rocco rock, tiene razon esa gente es asi, salvajes.
What? I don't know what is going on around Cusco, but you can see a lot of violence. Here we have the murder of a college student, and now tourists.
-its always been like this, a review of history doesn't cost much.
-you are right, these people are like this. wild.

Eso pasa por andar solos sin un guía que conozca el idioma autóctono. Yo ni loco viajaría solo por esos lugares...
This is what happens for going around alone without a guide who knows the language. A crazy person wouldn't even travel alone in these places.

There are more comments as well, some racist, some not, some in support of the villagers, some not, and more than a few saying how strange the whole story is. As to whether this could have happened in this region, I think it clearly could have. I think it was a miscommunication of the American's part, I think there is missing information, possibly they lied? I don't know. I don't think they deserve to be stoned. They never directly asked for money from the public. I personally don't think they were trying to scam people.

-Pat
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
somehow my theory that lime-green nano puffs turn 'common' Peruvians into whip wielding zombies is seeming more plausible all the time...

atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Alright, so after 731 posts we have graniteclimber speculating their story is true and Riley speculating it may be false. Anyone else want to pull an opinion out of their ass based on some internet posts by unknown authors?
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 10, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
I think maybe you are the only one on this thread who hasn't atch.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
i don't understand why people are bagging on the climbers for having nano puffs. they're a great piece to have. tons of people have them. you can find screaming deals on those jackets if you keep your eyes open.

it isn't that they aren't awesome, in fact they are TOO awesome, so much so they attract zombies.
drewsky

climber
Seattle
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Well, I reasoned earlier that we don't have enough info to call their story entirely true or entirely false. I still think that the true story will fall somewhere in the middle and that the Americanos' account isn't entirely factual but neither is it an elaborate hoax. If more proof surfaces that weights the argument in favor of one or the other, all the better.

More interesting to me was the condemnation of the fundraising efforts. There were a large number of posts from an assumed moral high ground, wherein the authors of said posts proclaimed that they would never stoop so low as attempting to recoup material items via the internet. Kind of a 'real men never ask for handouts' attitude. That's well and good and it's definitely a conundrum that people apparently focus so much on monetary loss (although again we don't know if this is the primary concern of the characters in this saga; we can only speculate) as opposed to being, in this case, lucky to escape with the worst damage being a few missing teeth.

We still need a few pieces of the puzzle for these opinions (including my own, obviously) to mount to anything but speculation.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 10, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Alright, so after 731 posts we have graniteclimber speculating their story is true and Riley speculating it may be false.

No I did not say that. I don't know what happened. All I'm saying is that if you take their story at face value, it's not as unbelievable as some have suggested.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 10, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
i don't understand why people are bagging on the climbers for having nano puffs. they're a great piece to have. tons of people have them. you can find screaming deals on those jackets if you keep your eyes open.
I only recently have been able to afford a "Nano Puff" so I can't say, however, I work my frikkan ass off, own my own business, am pretty old now, live in a nice home that I own, and my kids are though college with no debt: so I finally frikkan deserve one. Clearly these kids feel they are there now. Congrats. Plus the puffs don't need to be replaced like the $4,000 laptop with a $5,000 laptop and the Puffs beat Goodwill wool castoffs.


"I was seriously considering making a donation to help these hapless adventurers replenish their stock of expensive toys, but then I remembered that I'm still making do with my old iPhone 4 with a screen that's been shattered for over 3 months... "
I never considered it. Damn dude, I feel horrible now. (Knott)

You only have an iphone 4 AND the screen is cracked? Damn, that's harsh. You may need both a Crowdtilter™ fundraiser and an Enematilter™ combo platter to get you out of this horrible first world funk:-) .

Seriously, thanks for the reminder and the reality check:-)




Sorry man.

Oh, there were 2 funding sources to help these folks. Facebook is still open for funding replacement ipads, iphones, itrucks, nano puffs: have at it.


abrams

Sport climber
Jan 10, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Anyone know the number of the iphone that was stolen? Its time for some prank calls to the Puna.

International Calling Cards to Peru & International Phone Cards to Peru

http://www.callingcards.com/shopping/rate_table1.asp?Origin=USA&Destination=Peru
vininja

Social climber
NJ
Jan 10, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
These travelers (Joseph Palmer Wolfrom, Meghan Moore Doherty, Jennifer Lynne Wolfrom) obviously did not do their homework on traveling outside the USA or to South America. At some point in their lives they will have to accept some responsibility for the mob beating that they got.

I am surprised that they made it so far without other hurdles/incidents.

They openly flaunt poor "camping" decisions in foreign country's.

Self proclaimed PIRATES!! Did they really need to steal wireless internet in a poor country?!?!




cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:22am PT
I know Im still young and all, but I tend to believe whatever anyone tells me. So until there is proof that these people lied, Ill just have to take their word. I remember my dad talking about some guys who had freed some El Capitan route when I was a kid. He was saying, "like hell they did".
I remember thinking why would they lie? Maybe im a sucker. Maybe Ill change when I grow some facial hair.
Glad they are out of Peru and back home.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:13am PT
This piece of sh#t thread is still going?

They were clueless travelers who fuked up, blamed the natives, and then asked everyone else to cover their losses. End of fuking story.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2013 - 11:01am PT
it seems to be going towards bashing an extended travel, dirtbag lifestyle. like questioning why they would steal wifi from a hotel. they saved up and went on a a long trip. if you haven't done it yet, you should.

lets say they had about $20 to spend a day like i do. sure they are privileged compared to natives, but they still are living on $20 a day. I am in this place myself, living out a van, writing to you from a starbucks where i am using their wifi and just had 'whore-bath' in their sink.

promoting your trip to get a pimp camper for your beater mid-90s toyota is brilliant. i should think about doing something like this myself. i'll probably have to find a cute chica though, nobody wants male dirtbag scruffiness posted on their site to promote their product.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
mechrist +1 ^^^

oops, my bad,
says Patrick Compton. Yeah I think so. Go cuddle your three friends after they finish their SA trip.

I smelt shite from the beginning and I still smell it.

And yes, this story will roll, there will be a book deal and movie/TV movie deal. You can bet on it.

Okay, maybe they messed up a situation, but why should they benefit from their mistakes? And benefitting they are and will milk it to the utmost.

I still want to hear the villagers' side of the story.

Riley Wyna, your recent posts seem more level headed, before you and I (and others) had more knee-jerk posts, mainly because of the BS surrounding the story.

I still smell manure in the three's story.That's not saying I do/do not think they were attacked, but I wonder...

...and Americans love stories like this, it sells books and movies. Just wait and see. I am 99.9% sure of that (nothing in life is 100% sure). They will have their day under the sun. And the villagers? Who gives a sh*t about them. Not many posters on this thread, apparently. And by the posts, I do not have to point out those dear people who have empathy with the three "world" travelers.

BS, plain and simple. If they held their hands up and said, mea culpa, okay, but it is not going to happen... not on Oprah, Good Morning America or the Today Show. They will portray themselves as the victims. And the villagers? Savages and animals.

And the three will lap up the attention and what shillings it puts into their bank accounts.

This whole thing makes me sick.

There are far more people in this world that deserve our sympathy (and money), some even on the Taco Stand, than these three arse wipes.

And the climbing pix on their blog, how do we know it is them, pretty nebulous. So I hold up a grigri in a photo, heck I could hold up an ice axe and say I climbed Everest.

Folks, apologies, if needed, but I just do not buy the three's story, not in its entirety, at least.

Something is strange with this whole scenario.

Maybe it is just the cynic in me but..

I am an optimist, not a cynic.

From a distant relative (Samuel Langhorne Clements, aka Mark Twain)

“Optimist: day-dreamer more elegantly spelled.”
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Did they really need to steal wireless internet in a poor country?!?!
Why does anyone think they were "stealing" internet? Did they hack the hotel or something? (Not likely with those three.)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Dear DMT, you can see I have not posted on this topic the past few days. Invest my emotions? Yeah, darn right, I have better things to do, yet...

Dingus, I don't know, but this story just rankles me for some reason.

Jennie had a wobbly today down in the village. Embarrassing and very awkward for me (I am still on a learning curve) and one gal stopped to see if she could help, and Jennie made me out to be the bad guy. I finally got her home and calmed down. She is fine now, doesn't remember anything - dementia sucks. The public health nurse, John, says not to worry, these things will happen, considering Jen's medical condition. Easy for him to say, but then, he has been a huge help to us, and he just completed an intense course in dementia, so I take his advice very seriously.

And yet, the BS I smell from these three "intrepid" travelers, just bugs me. Bogus, probably not and yet. And in my first post on this thread, I did say that the truth probably lies somewhere between what the three claim and what really happened.

What else can I say?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Dingus, let's make a deal. If I get back to Cali, and I have the time and you have the time, you can lead the first pitch (Broad Dome, Atlantis Wall?) off the water at Donnell's Reservoir and then we can swing leads.

And if we run into any Miwok natives (I took two courses on the Miwoks at Columbia College), I will offer them loads of acorns so they will not beat the shite out of us, ala Peru

BTW, as part of one of my Miwok courses, I had to make an acorn mash using the stone pestle in the rock at the re-created Miwok Village at Columbia College. Yeck. Bland. No wonder they traded acorns for salt from Mono Lake with the Paiutes. That acorn mash could use a lot of salt for my tasting.

And pepper and perhaps tabasco. ;-)

And mushrooms might add a bit of flavor too.

And for those who may want to know, California had more native American (indigenous) tribes of different cultures (mainly hunter-gatherers) than any other place in North America. And for the most part, they did not war with each other, perhaps because of the abundance of natural resources that California had to offer, unlike the plains etc.

Okay the Modocs in northern California and the Yumas in southern California were a bit belligerent, especially to 'Europeans', not to say the Yosemite Miwok did not find it easy with the settlers. But overall, pre-European, the tribes in California got along with one another (yeah, I also did a course at Columbia on Californian tribes, and a course on Northern American tribes. The archaeology/anthropology professor, Blaine Rogers, was very tuned into these subjects.)
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Americans drinking and having fun in the middle of war zone


The minute you leave US of A, the war begins with you been the enemy

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
they saved up and went on a a long trip. if you haven't done it yet, you should.

I lived in a van for the better part of 3 years and a truck for months at a time before that, I know all about it. I ALWAYS dropped at least the $2 for a cup of coffee if I was going to spend the whole day using their internet. And YES, I ALWAYS left the public restrooms cleaner than I found them after I washed my hair/etc. The dirtbag fukheads in Bishop/etc who trash the public restrooms should be heavily ostracized by the climbing community. It makes me sick when I see how they treat the businesses around there... worse than 13 year old skaters at the mall.

One time near Sonora CA I was really tired, saw a dirt road, drove down it about 45 min until I found a tiny pull out and camped. I got woken up by a beat up old truck idling next to me. The crusty old man was staring me down hard, he was not happy that I was there but he didn't say a word, he just stared. I could have been all "what's up? Can I help you? I can camp here, right?" But instead I commented on how beautiful the area was. He said it was nice out there because there WEREN'T USUALLY PEOPLE AROUND, emphasis his. I apologized for being so close to his property, complimented him on his beautiful property again, and told him I would be on my way. He stared at me a bit more and then said, "no hurry, enjoy your breakfast it is a beautiful morning." I like to think he actually smiled a bit.

Point being... when you are traveling, don't act like you are entitled to anything. Be cool, be respectful, and remember YOU are the intruder. And above all, if your sh#t gets jacked, don't ask others to replace it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Cops tell us war stories and apologize for pulling us over.

This is really funny because something similar happen in Vegas. I got pulled over for doing 75 in a 60. I blamed it on the rental car... he asked where we were from... what we do in Tahoe. I told him we were going on a nature walk, to kind of check out the ecology. He told me to go back to his car with him... he pulled out a MAP. He gave us detailed directions to a nature preserve with a nice little canyon with beautifully water sculpted limestone walls (only 5' tall). Then he bid us farewell and sent us on our way... told us to slow down "because driving faster uses more gas, which you Tahoe ecology types should appreciate, and it is the LAW."
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
mechrist, +1 ^^^
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Jebus, I am beginning to wonder about you...

This thread seems to be turning into a "what if" thread.

Common sene. My mom taught me that. I wonder if the three so-called heroes (a term used on a couple of websites now) used their common sense. Two beers among three people to celebrate a birthday? Come on, let's be real. Only two beers. Poor souls must have been broke to only afford two beers.

I don't know what went down, but it sounds like these people were real idiots. I guess it is easy from my "armchair" to surmise that, and I am sure there are enough posters who sympathize with these people and call me insensitive, or worse.

But goddamn it, I want to hear the other side. Sure the local newspapers report what they want. I have worked on local rags to national titles, and what gets told is down to the editor. FACT. And when I write FACT, I goddamn know what I am talking about.

There is manure in the three's story, I'd bet my left... my left... left...corndog on it.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck... then it is probably a duck.

We all are sitting here pontificating. But I would bet my corndog these three will have their limelight on national TV, and probably some sort of book/TV/movie deal. Even somebody on Mountain Project posited that.

And if they do, and the other side of the story is not told, hey, big deal, it is America. So for those shedding tears for these three, just think, they are going to make out for the better than any of us. You can bet on that.

Why do I keep this subject up? Because I am super sceptical and I just know these three will get away with it. That's my gut feeling...

If they are fake or even part of the story is fake, they should be outed.

And I do not give a damn what Werner or other well-travelled people think (sorry Werner, but you did row in on this), I smell llama manure.


Where's my corndog?


EDIT

A good journalist/researcher someday will find out the truth, and I will bet what's left of my corndog, that these three will be shown up for what they are. Chancers.

But these three will be laughing to the bank.

Gosh darn it, they give American travellers a bad name. Not that they are alone in that.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
Jebus, if you come to Ireland, come around for a cup of tea, or coffee or a hot whiskey. It would do us both a lot of good. Langdale, 7 Burmah Close, Dalkey. And the rock in Dalkey Quarry (good granite) is a five-minute walk from my front door.

And I promise that the locals will not stone you and chase you for 10 or so minutes. I'll do that. ;-)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 11, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
Jebus, you from NuhVAAAAAAduh? I wonder how these "climbers" pronounced Peru... and other words. If ever in Prescott Aridzona... it is Presskit, not Prescott.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
Jebus, a good stoning eh?

Though I haven't partaken recently, there is some decent green or hash around. If you are telling me you are coming over I can score. And don't even think of bringing your own stash, the risks are too HIGH.

That said, I could use a good toke now after Jennie's tantrum in the village (which she has forgotten, that's dementia). I just have to settle for a glass of wine.

Cheers dude.

Paddy
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Jebus, the stone in Dalkey Quarry is sound granite (and some choss but not much, however you are looking at 10-40 meter climbs, but some two-pitch climbs (albeit short) for the most part, but great granite, slab, face, cracks.

And then there is Glendalough, multi-pitch (yeah, like three rope lengths at best) on decent granite. Fairhead in Northern Ireland, 1-4 pitches and you have to be a solid 5.9/HVS climber to lead. There are other places in Ireland. But the west (Cali, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, Washington), gosh aren't we so blessed. And of course other places (Chamonix, Patagonia, Alaska, Andes, Himalaya, etc).

Forgive me if I am crying. I miss home and the stone that is there. There is nothing like Tuolumne Meadows in the summer. Sigh...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
. . . caught boulder poaching once, on Hunter Ligget army base, by some staff Sargent M.P.

What's a "Sargent"?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Patrick Sawyer"
This thread seems to be turning into a "what if" thread.

The means you are about to do add your own "what if":

Common sene. My mom taught me that. I wonder if the three so-called heroes (a term used on a couple of websites now) used their common sense. Two beers among three people to celebrate a birthday? Come on, let's be real. Only two beers. Poor souls must have been broke to only afford two beers.

Common sense should tell you that not all of us are Irish drunks! I know if must be foreign concept to you (no pun intended on your being in Ireland) but some people are able to drink in moderation, and drink less beer than they can afford to drink. Even on their birthday.

Just because you like to get tanked on your birthday and drink till the money runs out doesn't mean that everyone does that.

Me, one my birthday I only had one beer. Most other people there had only one beer or none. It wasn't that we couldn't afford any more--there was plenty left over in the cooler.

So what may be "common" sense in Ireland or anywhere with a group of drunks might not be as common as you suppose elsewhere.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Heh. Yeah, that's sort of my ode to the idiocy of anglicizing a Spanish word and then getting bent out of shape when people honor the roots.

funny how people get bent over pronunciation... When I was in the valley I couldn't get over other climbers saying "RAAAUWWWWT". Finally I asked someone about it in the hotsprings one night. I said "It's a Route!" (rou-te) and the guy says, "What are you, French?"

it is a french word....
sempervirens

climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck... then it is probably a duck.

I can't believe I'm responding to this....
But you forget that there are many kinds of ducks whose behaviors may be very different. Thirty year old Nano puff wearers from Idaho who drink beer might not all have the same attitude and behavior. That's why the duck theory doesn't work. It is simple prejudice. Don't fall for it.

I've even heard that there are some Irishmen who talk like Irishmen, dress like Irishmen and walk like Irishmen but ARE NOT drunks. Is that true?

I tried to explain this to Riley.
WBraun

climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
You people are fuking crazy and obsessively out of control with this bullsh!t .....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Jan 11, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
What else would you expect from fuking stupid Americans?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jan 11, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
blahblah go hump someone else's leg, mkay?

DMT

how about save your endless circle jerk for your buddies or your own BS threads--you've got plenty, mkay?
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 11, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
I came here to post in this thread. I didn't join this forum to talk about climbing or any of that.

I been living in Jackson Hole for nearly 20yrs. Things have changed a lot here in the last decade, before the word was out about JH it really was mostly nothing but dirt bags here but those days are long gone along with many of the real dirt bags. I traveled by my own vehicle from JH to Panama and back, twice, with my dog. The first trip I spent living out of my truck on the road, did 15k miles in 4 months on the trip. On my second trip I bee-lined it for Panama and spent the next three months living in a small village of about 300 people. So just making it clear I do speak from a perspective that is based on experience.

When I first read the Wolfrom's story I thought it was a scam or just some other crazy BS, just couldn't wrap my head around it. Now, a week later and a few dozen hours of my own research and I believe their story to be true. However, I feel it is so very one sided and much is left out of the tale. Their story is full of holes, without a doubt. The money thing is lame and shows character of all those involved or who donated to them. I don't really care about the money side of it but I do think it speak volumes about many things, the credit of the people telling the tale only being one of these things.

I hate to come right out and say it but I feel it needs to be said. These three folks were extremely ignorant. I feel in at least a small way they do reflect upon me not just because they are from JH but because I take trips myself in my own vehicle deep into Latin America. As such, I do feel the need to comment on various discussions (on the internet) on the topic of the Wolfrom's tale. Getting your teeth kicked in and losing all your sweet gear is a hefty price to pay for ignorance but when you go to somebody else's country you are playing by their rules not your own. If you don't know the rules than really you have no right to say if you were dealt with in any way that is not acceptable in the said country.

There is a whole lot of factors that come into play from the incident. Fact of the matter is, the Wolfrom's account is full of so many holes it is hard to believe it took place as they describe. I won't go and point out a bunch of the details which have already been pointed out a number of times in this thread. However, the Wolfrom's posted their story for the world to see, themselves along with family and friends solicited the story to be spread as much as possible and as fast as possible. They (I don't care if it was friends/family) also solicited for money which they got to the sum of over 20grand. They did all this within 5 days after the were attacked, yes I suppose we can thank modern technology for that. I am just stating facts here. My issue with them doing that is that it shows them (because they are) irresponsible people and travelers. No insurance, no back up plan, no emergency fund, ect ect is irresponsible any way you look at it. And hey we have all been guilty of being irresponsible but most people admit this and then are willing to deal with the consequences of it. If I got a beat down like they did and then robbed I sure wouldn't be posting it on the internet asap for the world to see unless I had ulterior motives. A simple paragraph would have been enough for the world to see without pasting their police report or whatever it was on their blog along with an itemized listing of their lost gear. By doing that they have opened themselves up to scrutiny and rightly so.

I feel it is good that not everyone is buying their story. I think it is good there are ongoing discussions about the incident on the web. Why? Because it helps to shine a lot of light on the one sided story we have been given. It may also (if the Wolfrom's read these things being discussed about them) make them think about going on TV as well as to think back on the event and reflect. By reflecting perhaps they can realize they are mostly to blame for what happened to them. Perhaps they will realize all the mistakes they made to cause this to happen to them and perhaps they will understand why they are being scrutinized so much. If not, well then they have a long hard road ahead of them in life.

I read some 400 comments in this thread so have not read them all. Having been into overland (travel by vehicle) travel for some time now and also an active person within that community. Well, I got to say I am not to stoked on the kinds of things I read in blogs by travelers doing these kinds of trips the last few years. A big lack of respect is shown in travelers blogs across the web reporting on these types of trips, not just the Wolfrom's. And it disgusted me.....

I have not seen this link provided yet in the 400 or so comments I read so here ya go, another perspective.

http://chichalimona.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html

You can clearly see by some of the well informed comments posted in that blog that there is much the Wolfrom's didn't know about the country they were traveling in. That is foolish on their part, especially if you are just planning to camp where ever you like in a country you know little about.

There is also an ongoing discussion in the overland community, however, not many people are offering up much besides a few people. most are content to just wish them well and be silent. Which I got to say bothers me too since the Wolfrom's are a reflection on this community.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/81198-adventure-americas

Bottom line, your trip of a lifetime can be ruined if you are foolish and ignorant. On top of that you have a responsibility as a traveler and should not be so hasty to tell tales like the Wolfrom's since you are part of a much larger community. I do not fault them for seeking help, I do however question the way and method they went about seeking help. I know that if I got a beat down and lost my stuff I sure wouldn't be in a hurry to tell the world about it. Perhaps because in every part of my life I look to what I do/did to cause something to happen to me. And as a result I would feel embarrassed if I was the Wolfrom's. I mean really what do they expect from the public after telling their tale and so on and so forth?

Cheers
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 11, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
There is also an ongoing discussion in the overland community, however, not many people are offering up much besides a few people. most are content to just wish them well and be silent. Which I got to say bothers me too since the Wolfrom's are a reflection on this community.


This is what a lot of people here seem to wish would happen also.


I know that if I got a beat down and lost my stuff I sure wouldn't be in a hurry tot ellt he world about it.

Yet it was their first priority!

Something happened for sure. What? I don't know, but their story is missing something...


They didn't press charges, and they haven't updated since they got the money, and no other media seems interested in the story.. Fishy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Bottom line, your trip of a lifetime can be ruined if you are foolish and ignorant. On top of that you have a responsibility as a traveler and should not be so hasty to tell tales like the Wolfrom's since you are part of a much larger community.

Criticism falls into two contradictory categories (both bullshit):

1. Parts of Peru are full of crazy bloodthirsty savages. If you there without an escort, or at least without an escort, you're stupid and deserve everything that happens to you.

2. Peru is perfectly safe, full of well-meaning but ignorant, non-Internet connected peasants. None of them would ever hurt a fly, unless the fly deserved it. If anything like this happens to you, you must have totally provoked it.

Clearly Ian Westmoreland is a category 1 guy.

But I don't understand. He blames them for being "foolish and ignorant" in stopping in that area, but also attacks them for mentioning it on their blog. I guess he wants them to keep it secret so that the next "foolish an ignorant" traveler will make the same mistakes.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 11, 2013 - 10:29pm PT

A pishtaco is a mythological boogeyman figure in the Andes region of South America, particularly in Peru. In some parts of the Andes, the pishtaco is called kharisiri, or ñakaq.[1]

According to folklore, it is pagan evil monster-like man, often a stranger and often a white man, who seeks out unsuspecting Indians, to kill them and abuse their bodies in disgusting ways, primarily by stealing their body fat for various nefarious cannibalistic purposes or cutting them up and selling their flesh as fried chicharrones. Pishtaco is derived from the local language Quechua word: "pishtay" which mean to "behead, cut the throat or cut into slices".2]
Preoccupation with body fat has a long tradition in the Andes region. In pre-Hispanic times, fat was so prized that a deity for it existed, Viracocha (Sea of fat). It is also natural for the peasant rural poor to view fleshiness and excess body fat as the very sign of life, good health, strength and beauty. Many illnesses are thought to have their roots in the loss of body fats and skeletal thinness is abhorred.[3] The Indians were horrified when they saw the practice of the Conquistadores of treating their wounds with fats taken from enemy corpses.[4]

Spanish missionaries were feared as Pishtacos by the Andean aboriginals, who believed they were killing people for fat with which to oil churchbells to make them specially sonorous.[5] In modern times similar beliefs held that human fat was needed to grease the machinery of sugar mills[6][7] or that jet aircraft engines could not be started without a squirt of human fat.[8] Pishtaco beliefs have affected international assistance programs, e.g. leading to rejection of the US Food for Peace program by several communities, out of fears that the real purpose was to fatten children, and later exploit them for their fat.[8] Survey geologists and other Europeans working on the Peruvian and Bolivian altiplano have been attacked by natives in the belief that they were Pishtacos.[9] The work of anthropologists has been stymied because measurements of fat folds were rumoured to be part of a plot to select the fattest individuals later to be targeted by Pishtacos.[7] In 2009 the Pishtaco legend was cited as a possible contributory factor in the apparent fabrication of a story by Peruvian police of a gang murdering up to 60 people to harvest their fat.[10]

The pishtaco is prominently referenced in the novel Death in the Andes by Mario Vargas Llosa. In the book, two members of the Peruvian Civil Guard investigate the disappearance of three men, trying to determine if they were killed by the Shining Path guerilla group or by mythical monsters.[11]


Yeah, I'd agree that it's ignorant, although not necessarily foolish to not know about the ignorant and foolish superstitions of some of the locals.

But I doubt that they though they were being paid a visit by Pishtaco Man, although it may be a convenient theory to tell the cops.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 11, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
The blog has no new entries, but the Facebook Page has one, yesterday.
https://www.facebook.com/MegaJed

Jenny, Jed's sister is finally back in the good ol' USA!!! We are happy she is back safely, but it was hard to say goodbye to her! Our car is back in Cusco and the windows are being replaced. The mayor of Ocongate is supposedly going to pay for it, but we will see if that actually happens or not.
Jed apparently received 6 unneccesary root canals while in Cusco, but because they were also done so poorly he is having to have them all re-done before he can begin the process to get his new teeth. OUCH! Wish him luck in the upcoming days!

OUr bodies ache less and less every day and our spirits grow stronger. We go this afternoon to get our stitches out of our heads.
It has been a crazy 9 days since the incident and we are still looking at about another week of running around, but then we should be able to get the hell OUT OF PERU !
To everyone who has sent us messages of support,... Please know that they have meant a lot to us, and even though we have not yet had the time to sit down a and respond individually we have enjoyed reading them! Your support means a lot to us! Thank you!
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 11, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
Hurray! Moving on to new horizons.

google says the area they got attacked in is where the potato genetically originated. All wild species and domestic cultivars came from that area of the village of stone tossers. think of that next time your stuffing mcdonalds fries down the hatch
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jan 12, 2013 - 12:00am PT
"... and finally, if you do go there, we recommend not ordering a 'fishtaco'."
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 12, 2013 - 01:12am PT
I recall the Pishtaco thing causing some problems for Canadian mining operations and mineral exploration companies working in Peru several years ago.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jan 12, 2013 - 01:31am PT
Jed apparently received 6 unneccesary root canals while in Cusco, but because they were also done so poorly he is having to have them all re-done before he can begin the process to get his new teeth.

It seems like these guys have poor judgement concerning just about everything. Really if your front teeth were knocked out, would you consent to 6 root canals before getting them replaced? In a Third World Country?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 12, 2013 - 01:47am PT
This whole thing just reeks of nonsense... They have 20,000+$$$$ of new money and he's getting dental implants in a third-world country where they were recently attacked? WOT?

I wonder if I send them just $2000usd if they can broker the release of a Nigerian prince's fortune while they are down there.


nah000

Mountain climber
canuckadia
Jan 12, 2013 - 09:56am PT
in response to DMT's:

I so don't get the open hostility towards these people.

my guess is there are two things going on here:

the first part being transference of emotion.

to this point, the three travellers seem to take no responsibility for their own decisions. everything is the fault of the locals. the sister, who if i remember correctly wrote the initial report, says things like: everybody "knows" that you don't hand over documentation, we asked for permission to camp and were given it, the couple had been travelling similarly for months without incident, etc.

everyone has a person/persons/nation/etc in their iife who they are annoyed with and, similar to this, is always a victim. and to top it all off these people managed to turn, what appears to be, a similar attitude into +$25k so far.

and so the second part is likely jealousy. who hasn't wanted or doesn't want to go on a trip like this? the couple had pulled off one hell of an adventure to this point.



i also want to point out that the intention behind the above "critique", is not to pile on the travellers. i have travelled with my own vehicle from alaska to panama and back to canada. one of my worst fears was that i'd make a mistake and something relatively catastrophic would happen to me and/or my partner and i'd be blamed for/ abandoned to my own suffering. this type of travelling is similar to a lot of climbing/mountaineering in that the general public has a pretty mixed opinion regarding its "acceptability". so i have a lot of sympathy for these three. sure, it appears, they made some mistakes: who doesn't? i have infinitely more respect for someone doing something, then for those sitting behind a keyboard pontificating on the "unruly natives" or the "arrogant american travellers". this is not a movie and from what i've read, i suspect that this is a very grey situation with truths in all directions.

and so the second exciting adventure these people are getting to experience is the viral nature of the net. sure it can raise you $25k. it can also get you a lot of butthurt judgment from people who ultimately know little more than diddley, regarding the entirety of the situation.

so the take away for others planning a similar trip in todays world is that you need to have a media/internet strategy along with your insurance and extra truck parts - haha.

because my bet is if these people had this to do over again, they wouldn't allow family/ friends to post something that was intended to document losses/events/etc for official purposes and was written very shortly after the event. i also suspect that they would have written a somewhat different account [at least in tone] if they'd had a little more time for psychological recovery and introspection.
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 12, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Criticism falls into two contradictory categories (both bullshit):

1. Parts of Peru are full of crazy bloodthirsty savages. If you there without an escort, or at least without an escort, you're stupid and deserve everything that happens to you.

2. Peru is perfectly safe, full of well-meaning but ignorant, non-Internet connected peasants. None of them would ever hurt a fly, unless the fly deserved it. If anything like this happens to you, you must have totally provoked it.

Clearly Ian Westmoreland is a category 1 guy.

Actually I am neither. I feel the villagers are simply human beings capable of anything and as such it is foolish to underestimate them. On top of this I feel the Wolfrom's were ignorant by not knowing enough about the local area they were traveling through.

But I don't understand. He blames them for being "foolish and ignorant" in stopping in that area, but also attacks them for mentioning it on their blog. I guess he wants them to keep it secret so that the next "foolish an ignorant" traveler will make the same mistakes.

No, not for stopping but for not cooperating with the locals when asked to do so. It is easy to find out a Presidente is a village leader or mayor and it is also easy to find out by law they do have the right to ask for your documents. As such, yes it was foolish on their part for not knowing this and their reaction to it, ie fleeing, shows ignorance.

I do want them to share their story with the world, hell man I could careless if they get a multi-million dollar movie deal out of it. However, I feel they should report their story as responsible travelers not innocent victims who did nothing wrong and were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. This sends a bad message especially when you add in all the other factors. If the Wolfrom's handled reporting their story differently and more responsibly I am sure they would not be under nearly as much scrutiny.

These things are important to me because the Wolfrom's do reflect upon a community I happen to care about. On top of this they have the responsibility to set an example for those who come after them.

Cheers
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
it is also easy to find out by law they do have the right to ask for your documents.

Its also easy to get bad advice or misunderstand the advice or just have a bad day.

The sister is the one who wrote the report. She did not have hardly any of that type travel experience. She wrote the report directly after the trauma. She wrote it for the police which is why it includes the property values. They goofed when they cross posted it. OMG.. those sutpid arrogant beotches.

I agree with the advice above. One doesn't just need a travel guide in countries like Peru, one needs a media relations person.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 12, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Agreed John. Full disclosure, I have a nano puff. Am I going to hell?
hossjulia

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Jan 12, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
Sh#t happens, NOT ONE of us was there, the direction this thread took is just plain stupid!

Make Ass-umptions long enough, yup..........



Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jan 12, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
If you need dental implants you are past the root canal stage as the tooth and associated root have been removed. Something does not compute.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Dingus:
I so don't get the open hostility towards these people. Truly don't get it.

Riley:
Dingus - not hostile at all - travel is my life


Riley on Jan 5:
Best of all - it was written from the perspective of an ignorant, selfish bitch, who had been in the country for a few days. .. ..

Nope, not hostile at all.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 12, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
And then posting "unconfirmed gossip". Awesome.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 12, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
If you get beat up and your sh#t stolen when TRAVELING IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, there is nobody to blame but yourself.

STAY THE FUK HOME if you don't know what you are getting into and can't deal with the consequences.
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Its not gossip if you are telling what happened to yourself. It may be a lie, but that is different from gossip.
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Getting weird????? heh heh heh... More like beeeen weird. But yep.. the taco goes through stages where the angst seems to be heavy for awhile. Just like life. America is weird right now. Major angst. But then a recession will do that.
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Or during elections.. haha..



wish that weren't so.



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
America is suffering a lot of angst...... Stupid angst-ridden Americans....
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
Riley.. some of what you wrote was over the top. You were tooled in Yosemite for drunk driving, yet you immediately attacked them for drinking and driving. You smelled a rat, but you went overboard in the way you questioned everything. I still say it was miscommunication that led to their beating.

Besides, my comment was not directed at you. So why take everything personally. eh..
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Its also easy to get bad advice or misunderstand the advice or just have a bad day.

true enough man, true enough.

The sister is the one who wrote the report. She did not have hardly any of that type travel experience. She wrote the report directly after the trauma. She wrote it for the police which is why it includes the property values. They goofed when they cross posted it. OMG.. those sutpid arrogant beotches.

Well, if you want to call them that it is your opinion. Stupid arrogant beotches isn't what I would use but whatever.

Look bottom line, what would you say if somebody came and took a dump in your favorite climbing spot. Right there where you like to set up at. I am sure it would upset you and as a result you would get on a discussion forum where people were talking about who would and why they would take a dump there in the first friggin' place. And then perhaps you might then discuss how you and or the community at large might put a stop to people crapping where you like to climb. No!?

And hey the original story (police report/whatever) was posted on the Wolfrom's blog so Jennifer had to of had their approval to do that. What is wrong exactly with me pointing out it was a hasty decisions on their part to do that?

It all comes down to decisions (personal, family, friends, yours, mine, ect ect)...and the result of those decisions. Don't we call this responsibility for your own actions? That is, if your are responsible and make responsible decisions.

I agree with the advice above. One doesn't just need a travel guide in countries like Peru, one needs a media relations person.

Go public with a crazy story and have people you know (family/friends) make that viral on the internet and yes you may very well need a media advisor.

Cheers
John M

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
Stupid arrogant beotches isn't what I would use but whatever.

that was sarcasm on my part because of the bashing they had gotten. I guess its true that sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
Sarcasm represents another dimension. It cannot be adequately expressed by text. Innovation will be required.
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Sarcasm represents another dimension. It cannot be adequately expressed by text. Innovation will be required.

Which is why I am sticking to the facts and information, then I base my opinion on these facts from a stand point of personal experience. After that I make up my mind what is truth based on everything plus a fair share of human logic tossed in. As a result it is not possible for me to read something, one thing, on the internet and believe it to be fact or the truth.

Cheers
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
Ian Westmorland knows a little about fixing sprinklers, but not much else.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
well, if some of the uber-posters let up, it would be far less

people should ask more questions and make less statements - no?
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 12, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Ian Westmorland knows a little about fixing sprinklers, but not much else.

Indeed, man who hides behind an alias. I have nothing to hide or prove here.

I have said my piece, and from my own experience plus research have mostly made up my mind about the Wolfrom's story. I will leave you all to trolling, judging those with opinions or facts, and just having your chat.

Cheers

slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:37am PT
mechrist:
If you get beat up and your sh#t stolen when TRAVELING IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, there is nobody to blame but yourself.

STAY THE FUK HOME if you don't know what you are getting into and can't deal with the consequences.

A bit harsh I think. Regardless of how much one prepares, sh#t can go south in any number of ways just about anywhere one travels, even right here in the good ol' US of A. Aside from locking yourself in your home you're not in control of all circumstances you encounter. And even that has the potential to get all hinky circumstances depending.

Riley:
As opposed to the unconfirmed gossip that slandered an entire country and was used to collect 25000 dollars...lol
Yes - we should only be exposed to unconfirmed American accounts and narratives that fit well into your small wanker view of the world....

As John M pointed out, it's not gossip if you're telling what happened to yourself. You don't have to believe it, obviously, but it's not gossip. I'm not sure that it was directed at me but since you were replying to my statement I'll at least say that my world view is neither "small" nor "wanker"ish. In fact, my world view is large enough to accept that I neither understand nor know everything. I read the initial statement which is obviously one sided and understood then that, yes, these guys made some mistakes, both in judgment and action, that initiated their ordeal.

Riley:
As far as the stupid bitch sister and hostility- I will give ya that one..


Ok. So why the hostility? Why the rush to judgment? I understand and appreciate the need to make a quick analysis and judgment to act and move forward in life and death situations in your profession. But this isn't anywhere near the same situation. Your analysis isn't going to save anyone's life today here on the Supertaco so why the rush?

Instead of waiting for more information you (and others) start with your conjecture of DUI's and drug use or smuggling or any other asinine BS that fits your small world picture, going so far as to pasting comments and opinions from around the blogosphere, which in themselves are nothing but opinion and conjecture, to support your already biased views.

These three screwed up and got the piss beat out of them. One of them told the story which was since posted by a family member or friend online and went viral. Much money has been sent and some has been apparently withdrawn. Root canals. Dumb asses. Frauds. I say we lynch them.

toadgas:
are these flakey US tourists and 30 shitheaded villagers really worth 817 posts?


No. This has long since become more about the reactions/opinions of others engendered by "these flakey US tourists and 30 shitheaded villagers".
stephenbmx1@yahoo.com montoya

Sport climber
texas
Jan 13, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
lol Riley is such a bitch lol
stephenbmx1@yahoo.com montoya

Sport climber
texas
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:07am PT
???... ok lol
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:15am PT
I got angry when tradmanclimbs suggested on my (OT) Who has room for a Dog? thread that we cared more about dogs than humans attacked in Peru...

First of all no one is asking for money on my thread. The dog even has all it's vet bills covered. It is homeless and need of a home that will give it a whole lot of patience and love. If it doesn't get off the streets soon it will wind up dead or even worse, at a kill shelter that in his present condition the dog will be on the un-adoptable list so he'll gets fast tracked to Death.

These folks want their stolen stuff replaced, their car repaired, compensation for lost wages, some teeth fixed and flights home... First of all, they saved enough for a fancy off road camper, had it "shipped" and took months off for this trip. If they can do that, they can save up to get this done on their own. So correct me if I am wrong, they took a trip, understood that bad stuff can happen and wham... Bad stuff did happen and they didn't have a backup plan? Seriously... If someone wants to help them great... But they are safe and just want an easier ride so they won't be economically impacted. Fine... Not essential, but if someone want to give them a hand, heck... Let them.


I do not care less for people than dogs... If they were facing death, needed money to bribe someone to get out of trouble. Yeah, I would pitch in. For lost stuff and teeth work... Yeah, you can figure it out, you don't need my money when your own will work. This might slow your spending down for a few years but heck... I had to for my stuff, we all get a negative shake once in a while.

As for the dog, it's not on the same playing field. Not even close so don't compare what is happening on that thread to this.

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:07am PT
I've met some horrible crazy dogs and I've met some really horrible crazy people.

Both types need to get off this planet.


As for really great people and dogs, yeah... I'll do tons to keep them around. They are the jewels that make their friends and family wealthy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:20am PT
So correct me if I am wrong, they took a trip, understood that bad stuff can happen and wham... Bad stuff did happen and they didn't have a backup plan? Seriously...

Anastasia, have you forgotten that when "bad stuff" happened to you and people dear to you on a road trip and there were medical expenses, you "gave the go-ahead" for a fundraiser, one that ended up being as controversial as the one for the three in Peru? Do I really need to remind you of that?

If someone had asked snarky questions at the time about why the people in your group didn't have a better "backup plan" I think you would have agreed that it was over-the-top rude. So why you don't think that now, I don't know.

I am surprised you posted that.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:49am PT
Oh sweet Christ Granite.....

AF, Bachar and Steve weren't on a "road trip" They were driving back to Mammoth from a trade show in SLC and got into a horrific one car accident that left Steve dead, Bachar seriously injured and Anastasia has documented her physical and emotional injuries from it.

Are you honestly comparing what happened to Bachar/AF/Steve to what happened to these three bandit camping in a small town in a a third world country during a 9 month road trip and being hostile to locals when questioned to the degree they crashed their rig in a getaway attempt (after pepper spraying said locals) and ended up with some missing teeth, cameras, laptops and great outerwear?

Did Af or Bachar ask for money to replace laptops, cameras, puffy jackets, fix the car, etc? No. It was all monies to help John - one of the most beloved and prominent members of the climbing family - with his extensive recovery.

Not even close bro....
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:54am PT
...and it was for John Bachar someone everyone KNOWS here who had a broken neck in more than one vertebral. A life threatening and very scary condition. Not for his car that was totaled, not for the computers, our broken glasses or cell phones, or even our flights home. It was not for taking care of Steve's body or my own medical cost or the loss of income. It was for John life threatening, end of the world scary position.

In fact when they released him from Utah, he was in such a fragile condition that a fall could have paralyzed or ended him right there. Only at the specialist over at Cedar Sinai did we realize just how close we were to a super bad deal.

Yeah, I remember it. I remember it well. No, this does not compare. Not even close...

Plus Bachar and I did not ask for help. We simply appreciated and heck yeah I approved since it was needed and it did help him greatly.

Yeah, you just really pissed me off.


P.S. I am now going to go hug my dog and... Locker has a point. Sometimes dogs are better than some folks.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:00am PT
I think it's really stupid to try to compare accidents, attacks or whatever and try to maximize one while minimizing another. But much of what you suggest about the necessity of the funds raised were discussed here.http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=269833&tn=0&mr=0 and http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=269556&msg=271841#msg271841 So if you are going to start making comparisons you might want to read that first.

I followed those threads at the time, but you didn't see me on those threads begrudging the funds that were raised or how some of them were ultimately used.

Also if you think that they asked for money to replace their puffy jackets, you haven't been paying attention. A friend in the U.S. started the fundraiser without asking them.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:08am PT
Another thing GC about the Wolfroms vs. AF/Bachar/Steve

No one in their party died, no one in their party was left with life threatening injuries that would need constant and vigilant medical attention and rehabilitation.

Just some dental work and stitch repair. Which if they had any sense they'd have used the $25K to get back to the US to get worked on. Instead, they're staying in Cuzco so they can get their rig back and continue their trip and poor Jed had an alleged 6 root canals before they could replace 4 teeth according to his wife. What The Fu...!!!! It's on their posts. Who is willing to undergo 6 root canals in a medium sized city in a third world country to replace 4 teeth then sit around and wait for said teeth?

That makes NO SENSE. They could be home by now under the care of Jackson dentists and local docs for their alleged stitch removals (again, we've yet to see a single picture of any of the injuries).

Don't even think about comparing AF's situation and the plight of the Palcca three. Not even close in any sense.

And sorry GC, Jenny posted her list and gave permission for it to go out on the worldwide web to friends on their website. And the Wolfroms have been taking solicitations for their entire journey and are thanking everyone for continuing to giving more $$ to them during this trying time for them. They solicited money for what happened to them in their nightmare in Peru post, I can go back and dig it up for you if you don't remember it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:20am PT
You are mischaracterizing both what happened in the John Bachar fundraiser and also the Wolfrom fundraiser. Please read the threads, so you don't repeat misrepresentations that were made in the course of the John Bachar fundraiser (not by John but by people supporting the fundraiser). Some people felt defrauded afterwards, and I understand why.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:26am PT
Don't argue with him Fluoride... I think what needed to be said has been written. We now can simply stand by our words and let him spew.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:28am PT
Really? How? Explain it to me in detail GC. Cause there's not even a close correlation between the two incidents.

Was John down in a third world country camped and drinking on private property when locals came and asked him for ID, he refused, was combative, got into a heated argument in a native language he couldn't have understood, then tried to drive his rig away while AF pepper sprayed those trying to stop them? Then as they tried to plow through those stopping them they wrecked their rig as a result and got some cuts and dental problems? Then begged for money online to the tune of receiving $25K to help him replace material belongings, the first one being buying a new laptop after said incident? And continue on his trip throughout SA?

No....that does not sound in any way like the Bachar crash to me.

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:37am PT
Fluoride you spoke up very well. Those are some awesome points I could not figure out to say myself.

He is just indirectly attacking me because I don't agree with him. Yes, using the Bachar incident to get a rise from us is in bad form. Yet it sadly is working.

Don't feed his need for drama. No matter what we say he is right. No matter how much proof you give him that the world is round, he will insist it is flat. He is that type.



Thank You for speaking so beautifully.

Anastasia

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:40am PT
Fluoride, I think that we're being delusional if we don't agree that big mistakes were made in BOTH cases. If you think that in one case all of the victims deserved everything that happened to them in one case but were all completely blameless in the other case, then you need to do some more research or rethink your logic. You can start with the Supertaco threads I linked to.

Also, in each case there three people and only one driver, and I don't think you should assume that a vote was taken and that everyone was in agreement.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 04:14am PT
"Fluoride, I think that we're being delusional if we don't agree that big mistakes were made in BOTH cases."

John fell asleep at the wheel of a car en route home from working a trade show in the US with 2 people close to him. Someone died, he was seriously injured, AFS has said her peace on the incident here.

And then there's the Wolfrom's.....

Same thing? Not even close.

"I don't think you should assume that a vote was taken and that everyone was in agreement."

Good God, do you not have an ounce of common sense? Are you high??? That makes no sense in comparison AT ALL.
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 14, 2013 - 04:44am PT
It never ceases to amaze me the truely thoughtless things people will say. Wasting time on them is futile. Take a breath, step back, and allow them to lynch themselves.

I care more about my dogs than those Dumb asses in Peru.

Same here about my cats!

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
they wrecked their rig as a result and got some cuts and dental problems

You left out the part where they were chased down, stoned, kidnapped, beat and whipped and threatened with death. Not just the driver, but also the two women who happened to be in the truck?

Where did you work as a reporter again? Fox News? You didn't think that was important?

Didn't your own run-in with authorities end with you in injured and in a drunk tank? Didn't the authorities state that you were intoxicated and uncooperative, and whatever injuries you suffered you caused yourself? I would have thought you would be more understanding, or at least a little less judgmental.

one of my best friends

That's what this is about isn't it? We won't stand for criticism of ourselves, our good friends or our personal heroes, especially if they are climbers. If they are world-class athletes, that's even better. Any mistakes should be overlooked and forgiven. Because they're awesome!

But people we don't know who aren't climbers, or who we ignorantly dismiss as not being climbers--if they make mistakes or we think we made mistakes, they suck, and while we're at it we'll just call them liars, without needing any real evidence. We'll just fabricate and twist the facts in the worst possible light. The driver--he sucks! His wife and sister? They're in the same car with him so they suck also. The people who believe them and supported them--they all suck! They need help? LOL - should have had a back up plan! While we're at it, let's post up that they suck so bad that helping a dog should be a higher priority then helping them. Because they suck.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
GC treads harshly but there are a few grains of truth to his blasphemy, and I for one am guilty.

Like I said somewhere back at the start of this thread, there are lessons to be learned, a teachable moment.
John M

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
The difference is.. they might actually suck. We know John and Anastasia don't suck. We don't know if these people do.

It appears to me that both made mistakes. Lots of us have driven when exhausted. Thankfully few of us have paid as heavy a price. I would wager that fewer of us would have made the same mistakes these folks appear to have. I say appear to because I also am not willing to immediately jump to their crucifixion.

I'm also believe that if that list that was made for the police of their stolen items and their value had not been posted on the
world wide web, then more people would be more forgiving of these peoples mistakes.

Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes. I know this much. I am much more likely to pull over now and get a few hours shuteye when driving and I get tired. But then I am also older.. :-)

Edit:

GC treads harshly but there are a few grains of truth to his blasphemy, and I for one am guilty.

Agreed.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
I've made lots of bad mistakes myself, I've just been lucky that they have not had serious consequences.

I am much better about driving when sleep deprived because of what happened to John and several others who posted about it. Years ago, that could have been me.

If I am in a similar situation to what happened in Peru and and it has a better ending, it will be because I learned from their experience.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
This tread is dead.
TY
John M

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
I traveled to an area and did the best I could to positively interact with the locals. Being as respectful as I could and attempting to mind all of their local customs.

I still got a beat down.

My mistake?

I showed up.


what culture?

Southern california surf.

:-)
Ian Westmoreland

climber
Jackson
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/gallery_browse.php?dir=1&lim=0
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 14, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
GC, your case would be laugh at in any court or jury of peers.

You're just trying to stir the pot, and using peoples' close friends and people who have suffered direct experience with the tragedy and said events.

Joining in your debate would lower the persons involved to the same level of stupidity.

I'm sure you're a smart man, or women, I have no idea... but your rant is borderline vindictive and ur clearly bored, when many times your perspective is spot on and can be quite clever and entertaining.

No, I am serious. If you think what I'm saying is stupid, maybe you can explain that to me.

I think that we judge other people's actions, we should give strangers the same consideration we give to close friends and family. If you'd give a close friend of your's a "free pass" for something, then don't be so judgmental when a stranger does the same thing.

As it is, two of the people most vocally calling out the Wolfroms for making mistakes in their confrontations with the villagers/authorities each have a history that includes a violent confrontation with uniformed police after they mishandled their confrontation with authorities. To them I have to say, if you can't properly handle confrontation with a uniformed cop in the U.S., maybe you wouldn't handle a confrontation with shadowy non-uniformed "authorities" or a large angry mob any better then the Wolfroms did.

I think that many of the posts in this thread are not just borderline vindictive, they are over-the-top vindictive, and I'm calling bullshit on that.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
I would like to reiterate that I have absolutely no connection to the Wolframs, lime-green nano puffs, or the cookie monster.

Yes, this is my first post, and it is looking that it may hit 1000. As my grandfather used to say: even a broken clock is right twice a day.
WBraun

climber
Jan 14, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
IF .....

Their story is completely true.

As >>> (No one here seems to know any absolute truth to this beyond any shadow of doubt)

Why would they even want to help the very same people who had just tried to kill them?

:-)

And yes this thread is stupid, and I'm stupid for even posting in it .......
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 14, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
How can you be stupid? Are you even American?






And one thing seems glaringly obvious in this whole conversation;

Coz needs to do a TR about this Mexico City strip club, no "ifs", "ands", or "butts".











edit: nice post-reposting Werner. Truck empire ain't no fluke!
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a duck. We've ALL seen this before...stupid upper middle class white kid goes into the wrong'hood to score and gets his dad's Audi jacked and his ass kicked...but he gets lucky and lives, but of course omits the bit about the drug deal. He was robbed for no damn reason by mean black men...or Mexicans. I strongly suspect that this never happened at all, that it's merely a twist on the Nigerian scam..."this is your brother Bob, and I need money to get home from London". If it DID happen, it was a drug deal gone sideways...sharing a beer with the locals..."hey can we score some....." and there you go. Their story doesn't pass my sniff test.

On a more serious note...on Christmas Eve some idiot pulled out in front of me at an intersection and I t-boned him, totaling my vehicle. Now, I know how you all love dogs, and it would be a shame, if not borderline in humane for my girlfriends idiot Maltese to ride to the beach in Pacifica in the back of an old truck. So, I urge you to visit www.pleasebuyBlackiesowneranewAudiAllroad.com. I assure you, it's just as valid a cause as the Peruvian scammers, except that I really will buy a new Allroad if enough of you are gullible enough to send me $60K.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 19, 2013 - 01:33am PT
This is the way kickstarter is suppose to work. "My name is Bar..."

http://www.kickstarter.com.funnyordie.com/projects/83719047/sex-tape#


pvalchev

Social climber
Mountain View, CA / Calgary, AB
Jan 27, 2013 - 03:20am PT
I heard they were on the today show and just found it (3-4min):
hulu link
cuvvy

Sport climber
arkansas
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Riley
Youre one screwed up person
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Cuvvy, I disagree. Rily Wyna has gone over the top a lot on this thread, but generally he is sound.

WTF would you know anyway, unless you are a lurker. You have only been posting here since November. Give the guy a break. He is in a high-pressured job, helping to save people, and he has seen through Armstrong's lies, slander, suits, of hurting people.

So he has been way OTT on this thread. Over the years on most threads he comes across as very sensible. But being a noobie, you probably did not know that. No offense.

Best wishes and safe climbing
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Patrick speaks the truth. I don't agree with Riley on this thread, but he is generally sound, just not on this thread. I emailed him saying that one of us was wrong and would have to eat crow. LOL.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Those photos are great. They all look pretty shaken up after that serious car accident!
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
I know, last time I got high centered in a ditch my car was totaled and I barely escaped with my life! What's weirder is that my window fractured in exactly such a way that it looked like it had been hit by blunt objects.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
I guess one should beware of ditches?

atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
Glad you escaped with your life Pat. Is your paypal account still active?
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
You crack me up atch, but still come on, look at those injuries... they were not caused by the truck running into the ditch, that is pretty obvious.

Also, I didn't set up a paypal account, my friends did it for me.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
I agree, I think some were caused by pepper-spraying the locals.

Cheers,
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Fair enough, we are all creating our own stories here for our own reasons, including me.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:35am PT
some were caused by pepper-spraying the locals.

You mean the local lynch mob that had attacked them BEFORE they pepper-sprayed them in an effort to get away.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 31, 2013 - 02:42am PT
atchafalaya:
some were caused by pepper-spraying the locals.

graniteclimber:
You mean the local lynch mob that had attacked them BEFORE they pepper-sprayed them in an effort to get away.

Timeline is everything in this very fluid situation. As I recall from reading the original report these three pulled up somewhere outside the village, parked and were eventually approached by a few of the locals. The three Americans asked if they could camp for the night and were told they could. Locals left and soon Americans heard whistles being blown from the direction of the village. A larger group of locals approach and demand passports. Americans refuse. An argument ensues with the Americans eventually deciding to hightail it outta there, jump in the truck attempting to drive off. The truck is pummeled with rocks. They drive in the wrong direction for several minutes only to learn that they have to drive back the way they came. Roadblocks are skirted as more rocks rain down upon them. They drive into a ditch and can go no further. More rocks. They jump out of the truck and bear mace is used on some locals as they run away. More rocks. They're caught, brought back to the village and held through the night. Police are called in the morning.

It's very easy for me to see this happening. It's easy for me to see how the locals would be highly suspicious of folks unknown to them parking at dusk just outside of their village. It's easy for me to see how the Americans would be reluctant to give up passports to a group of people they had no knowledge of having the power to demand them. It's easy to see how the locals would become even more uneasy at the refusal of the Americans to identify themselves. It's easy to see how misunderstanding due to the language barrier might have facilitated all of this.

If I found myself in this same, unfortunate situation, with escalating tensions, it's pretty easy to see myself simply trying to leave. And once leaving, if I found myself under assault from a barrage of rocks I could easily see myself fearing for my life. And, having to turn around and run the gauntlet again, subsequently crashing the vehicle all while still being pummeled with rocks, you can be gawdamned sure that I would hesitate not one second to use bear mace to try to get away. Or maybe it would be better to just stand there while you and your two female companions possibly get brained.

Again, timeline. I haven't seen anything discrediting their sequence of events. If anyone has a credible alternative please post it up. Credible, not hearsay, not "I bet. .. . ", not "probably. .. .. ". Anything less than credible is nothing more than gnashing of the teeth in an attempt to bash these guys with zero evidence.

Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:43am PT
Where are the tall rock barricades? Just a truck in a ditch. No rocks seen anywhere. Lots of green grass and wet road.

http://www.caretas.com.pe/Main.asp?T=3082&w=1&idG=62423&Idx=0#top

http://www.caretas.com.pe/Main.asp?T=3082&w=1&idG=62423&Idx=5#top

THESE are the vicious locals who did this to them?

http://www.caretas.com.pe/Main.asp?T=3082&w=1&idG=62423&Idx=4#top

The photos don't add up to the story.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:48am PT
It's easy to try to second-guess what they did. They said they got bad vibes and their instincts said to run.

From the way they were treated, specifically the way the women were treated, I say that their instincts were right. You can call it sexism if you want, but in most places, even in primitive third world villages "decent people" would have shown more restraint in the treatment of the women, especially if it had been the man who had done the driving and used the pepper spray.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:53am PT

Yeah, it was green grass that smashed up the windshield.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:05am PT
Where are the tall rock barricades? Just a truck in a ditch. No rocks seen anywhere. Lots of green grass and wet road.

Is that the Fox News version?

Read the article. The pictures were taken in the morning when they finally called the real cops, 11 HOURS LATER.

Remember how they stated that their attackers had called the cops only after they were forced to sign a statement saying that it was just a car accident? If that was their cover story, the first thing they would have done is remove the barricades. You can say that they made up the story, but you can't say that the lack of a barricade in the picture is not consistent with their story.

As an ex-reporter Fluoride, I'm surprised this didn't occur to you. But I guess people just see what they want to see, and that goes for "reporters" also.

This Peruvian newspaper believes their story a lot more than some here.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:09am PT
Google's Translation

http://www.caretas.com.pe/Main.asp?T=3082&idE=1085&idS=242

Tourism Three Americans who did a tour in his trailer are brutally attacked by members of the community in full Ocongate route to Machu Picchu.
Tourism and Misadventure
PHOTOS PDF

Sunday December 30, 7:30 am. Wolfrom Jed, his wife and his sister Meghan Doherty Jennifer after 11 hours of savage beating.
Jed Husbands Wolfrom and Meghan Doherty said goodbye to the cold state of Wyoming, USA, 9 months ago.
Thousands of miles separated the pair of Patagonia, in Argentina, the final destination of a unique journey through Latin America that started on April 1, 2012.

They stopped in Cusco, Dec. 22, to meet with Jennifer Wolfrom, Jed's sister, and celebrate Christmas and New Year.

Peru did not imagine that hell would know.

On Saturday December 29 were viciously attacked by 30 farmers of Pallca, a small town 20 minutes Ocongate District, and part of the tourist corridor that leads to Machu Picchu.

They were rescued by the police, but his condition was lamentable: the three tourists needed 100 points to suture wounds and Jed mouth practically rebuilt.
Ocongate What happened in?

CROSSING
Jed and Meghan met in 2005 when skied at Jackson Hole resort and before you even think about having kids, being framed as a route to cross the continent.
They bought a caravan Toyota Tacoma TRD, which named it "The Hood Rat" (The Hooded rat) and created the blog "Adventure Americas" as a sort of diary while a hook to attract sponsors.

The wheels were set in motion.

They left Wyoming on April 1, 2012 and toured California, Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia and Ecuador. crossed the border into Peru on December 21 and, as it could not be otherwise, Direct enrumbaron to Cusco.


Jennifer (30), Jed's sister, his vacations to join the pilgrimage in Cusco.

The trio spent exploring the Ausangate Christmas. Started back to go to Machu Picchu, on Saturday 29.

The night surprised them halfway, so they decided to park the caravan up to Pallca, a town 20 minutes from Ocongate. They planned to camp there. It was 6:30 pm.

Two villagers emerged from the shadows and approached them blowing their whistles to alert neighbors. Suddenly, the Americans found themselves surrounded.

NIGHTMARE IN Pallca
They asked for our documents and we refused because they were police. Pressure we looked nervous. We said we were better, but they would not let my brother closed the door, "said Jennifer on her blog.
Jed floored the accelerator, but the mob blocked the road and began throwing stones.

The nightmare had begun.

Tourists used two pepper spray, which further exacerbated the crowd.

A Jennifer beat her face Jed and beat him to the point of break his four front teeth.

In the midst of despair, the three tourists escaped. "We ran for our lives for an hour, dodging hills and rivers. Projectile receive multiple blows to the head and body until we surrender. We were captured by farmers and brought back to the community. We were covered in blood, "said Jennifer.

They were taken to school Pallca where stripped of all their belongings for U.S. $ 10.695.

"Many of the men and women screamed kill us. We never stop to apologize for the misunderstanding, but they replied with beatings and whippings with ropes in the middle of the interrogation muleteer, "said Jennifer.

"At 5:00 am, after 11 hours of beatings, we returned to the van. All windows and the jacket had been destroyed. They ransacked the interior and objects scattered in the mud. We ordered the police wait before towing the truck, "he continued.

Four police officers since Ocongate, including Commissioner Hernan Peralta, Pallca arrived at 7:30 am.

The photographs open this report correspond to the time: Jed Wolfrom seen his face bloodied by the caravan Toyota, tilted in a ditch beside the road.

Meghan Doherty and Jennifer Wolfrom appear there too, covered in blood and mud.

"Obviously it was not an accident but an attack. During the nights tend to steal cattle trucks parked, crime is very common in this area. Most likely you have mistaken the rustlers, considering that they would not identify themselves and fled at full speed, "said Ensign CARETAS Peralta.

Another version is that environmentalists have been alleged inciting the villagers to intervene to any stranger who trespasses on their territory and find out the reasons for their presence. They are alert for extracting soil samples under the suspicion that it would be a mining concession with the state, which would end banishment.

None of this, of course, justifies the savagery with which acted Ocongate commoners.

The incident occurred in a remote location as Uchuraccay (see column Gorriti), but on the main tourist route in the country.

This definitely hurts tourism, creating panic.

On January 10, shortly before returning to the U.S., and Meghan took leave of Peru in his Facebook profile: "Just one more week to get out of trajinadas finally here." (Alvaro Arce)
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:12am PT
"Yeah, it was green grass that smashed up the windshield."

Or their heads in the accident in the ditch without a seatbelt.

These photos can be interpreted in many different ways.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:18am PT
The photos don't add up to the story.

No, they don't. Those photos were supposedly taken the morning after all the action took place. Those photos, in and of themselves, neither confirm nor deny their story.

Fluoride:
THESE are the vicious locals who did this to them?

If you believe the rough google translation at the bottom of the photo, then yes.

"Los comuneros de Ocongate dijeron a la Policía que atacaron a los turistas porque estos se negaron a identificarse y luego escaparon."

Google translation:
The villagers of Ocongate told police he attacked the tourists because they refused to identify themselves and then escaped.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:24am PT
The photos can be interpreted in many different ways, two of which is either they're lying, or they're not. If the quotation from the photo above is correct they were, in fact, attacked. That's not the whole story but certainly a part that many have had a hard time believing.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:45am PT
Another news story has the mayor of the village admitting that there was an attack.


http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2013/01/25/16695902-tourists-scary-tale-bloodied-by-rocks-robbed-in-peru?lite

The mayor who oversees the Peruvian village where the attack took place insisted to NBC that the events stem from a misunderstanding. He said the villagers thought the Americans were delinquents, but couldn’t explain why the residents responded so violently. He said the event is being investigated.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:59am PT
Attack or not... strangers come to your hood acting all cocky and entitled to a free campsite and refuse to show ID... you whack the fuks. If they aren't pussies they will take their lumps and learn their lesson. Otherwise, they will ask everyone else to replace their iPhuns.
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:23am PT
mechrist, beyond calling your above post BS it's not worthy of a response.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jan 31, 2013 - 08:39am PT
After seeing that video I believe the story. They look terrible. Maybe things would have been better if they cooperated. I can see how people who are scared in an escalating situation respond with a fight or flight response and one thing leads to the next on both sides.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:47am PT
"You mean the local lynch mob that had attacked them BEFORE they pepper-sprayed them in an effort to get away."

Actually, I meant what I said GC. I undertand though that your shtick is supporting anyone who claims to be a victim so carry on...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
atchafalaya:
I undertand though that your shtick is supporting anyone who claims to be a victim so carry on...

If you add, "and that you believe to be victim" then yes I suppose you can say that is my "shtick." Not everyone who claims to be a victim gets my sympathy, as some here have learned.

Isn't that your "shtick" as well, since you are a civil rights lawyer, or is that just your "shtick" when you are addressing the jury? Did you ever believe in what you were doing, or have you become cynical from years of selling your talents to plaintiffs that you secretly believe to be undeserving? And in this economy, has ambulance-chasing PI business been consuming more of your practice? That's a quick way to become cynical.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
I am a defense lawyer, but don't let that stop your 3rd grade lawyer rant... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 31, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
2:40, the villagers made them sign a document that said they crashed the car because they had been drinking? From the pictures, it sure looks like a drunk veer into a ditch to me.

Whatever, fact is, as "experienced travelers" they should have had copies of their documents for EXACTLY THOSE SITUATIONS... and gone out of their way to accommodate the requests of the locals.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
The surfboards on top are a nice touch. Cowabunga kiddies.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Yeah, atchafalaya, so you will gladly take their side, but only if they throw a few bucks at you, or there's otherwise a dollar reward waiting for you at the end. So would it be safe to say that, at least when it comes to you, that their biggest mistake is not paying you first?

Edit: Wasn't that you asking about release-dismissal agreements? Since you're a defense lawyer, isn't this something you should have already have heard about?
John M

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
So help me understand something. Some of you are suggesting that the injuries they received happened during the accident in the ditch. If you look at the photo of the truck, then it does look like two people hit their heads on the windshield.

so answer me this.. If he got his injuries from hitting the windshield, and two of them must have hit the windshield, at least according to you if thats how the damage to the windshield occurred.

Then why do neither of the women have head injuries similar to the man?





Just curious what your explanation is for his injuries and how that relates to what happened to the truck windshield and the womens lack of similar injuries.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 1, 2013 - 12:01am PT
I suspect that if the windshield had been cracked like that by their heads hitting it, they would have been injured worse than they are and would have at least gotten concussions. Also, I suspect that the upper forehead would impact the windshield, and that this wouldn't affect the lower face or teeth much. But I don't know this for sure.

Riley, what injuries would be typical for someone smashing a windshield with his head?
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 2, 2013 - 07:31am PT
You all need to watch the video to see the additonal photos that aren't on this thread:

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/2013/01/25/16695902-tourists-scary-tale-bloodied-by-rocks-robbed-in-peru?lite
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 2, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Clueless gringos. The Caretas article says all this happened right on the main route to Machu Pichu, and they are concerned the incident will scare away tourists. It sounds like Nepal. Their main industry is tourism. Even the Maoists trying to overthrown the Nepal govt know better than to mess with the tourists. That would make everyone hate them.

This is probably the first time in history that gringos have driven all the way down there and camped on their land. This kind of gorilla camping is really a gringo phenomenon (and a western one at that) and would normally be considered strange or suspicious to be camping outside instead of staying in hotels. The Caretas article decribes the town as a high crime area and says the people had been repeatedly robbed of their cattle in recent times. It seems the whole town was already mobilized to defend itself against the cattle thieves, in a kind of neighborhood watch, when these dumb gringos who can't speak spanish veered off the main tourist highway thinking they could just pull over and camp.

Hopefully they've learned something about what the world is really like, rather than just begging money off strangers to continue their wild and crazy adventures in the third world.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2013 - 10:22am PT
The locals assume the gringos are cattle-rustlers, but the gringos are clueless?
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Feb 2, 2013 - 10:37am PT
I hope those of you who think you've got the whole scene figured out from your lofty arm chairs are never in the position of these three folks. What a truly crappy feeling it must be to be tried and judged in such a way.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 2, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
I'm not saying the locals didn't attack. I'm saying I don't see the rock barricades the locals built... or any rocks laying around with which they could have built said barricades.

I'm also saying, if they did attack, I don't think they were necessarily out of line. Some cocky foreigners roll up and set up camp on your land, whatchu gonna do? If they refuse to show ID, whatchu gonna do? If they are doing drugs (alcohol), whatchu gonna do?

If you are visiting a foreign area, be respectful and bend over backwards, sideways, or whatever ways the locals want you to bend. If you aren't willing to accommodate the locals wishes, stay the fuk home. Them's simple country folk. They don't give a fuk about your vacation... they care about their daily lives... the lives you are interrupting... their families... what little property they have.

Oh, and if you piss them off and they retaliate, don't ask others to replace your iPhun.
John M

climber
Feb 2, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Sorry this is so long. Its just some of my thoughts.

The pics were taken the next day. There are rocks in the ditch which you can see in some of the pics.

This was in my opinion a failure on both sides. You say that they should bend over backwards. They say they asked two people if they could camp there. I believe that the people they asked did say yes, but only because they didn't really understand them. There appears to have been a communication barrier.

They did refuse to show their passports. They could have had copies of other Id to try and use if they were worried about their id being taken. So that is one mistake. This was a high crime area.. They didn't seem to be aware of that. Another mistake.

They did ask to leave. They drove the wrong way. Another mistake. But in their defense they did ask to leave.

I believe that women and children were involved in beating them. I believe that they were beat. Villages can be very unfriendly places very quickly. If they aren't afraid of you, then you can be welcomed openly, but if they are afraid then they can join in very fast to fight. Its the nature of things and I am not saying it is wrong. It is just the way it is.

Some here seem to think these people deserved to get the sh#t beat out of them. As though they were being disrespectful. I don't see that. I just seem some mistakes and some misunderstandings. I'm not interested in persecuting the villages. But I'm also not interested in persecuting these people, which some people here seem to be wanting.

I didn't see their website as some terrible begging thing. I see it as I see Fish's buy him a beer thing. Its just something people do now and people like to have an easy way to be nice. If I bought something from Fish and he went out of his way to get it to me on time when I was in a push, I would want an easy way to say thank you. To me that is no different then if you read their blog and enjoy it, and want to support their journey by buying them a pizza, then why not.

The asking for money was a different and separate issue and was started by a friend. Much like people here start funds when their friends are sick. Its just what people do. But some people seem to be so terribly offended by this. I don't see why. They didn't have to contribute if they didn't want to. It was a request. Nothing more. If people want to give, then that is their business. I can see where some people are concerned because if this was a scam, then that might stop some people from giving in the future. So if it was a scam, then that should be determined. But from what I can see, it wasn't a scam. It was just a series of mistakes. On both sides. Which happens.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 2, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
There appears to have been a communication barrier.

No sh#t. And who is to blame for that?

I don't see how a rural village defending their people and property from perceived delinquents who refuse to show ID is a fault.

I don't see nearly enough rocks anywhere around there to build any kind of barricade... especially one that truck couldn't get over.

If you run into trouble traveling, it is your fault. If you aren't willing/able to deal with sh#t, stay home. If your adventure doesn't turn out the way you planned, ain't nobody to blame buy yourself.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 4, 2013 - 05:29am PT
Whatever the truth of this story, the people who will suffer in the long run are the Peruvians and their tourist economy. Not a smart move on their part.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2013 - 08:13am PT
The Peruvian tourist board can hire Mechrist and the rest of the 'toughen the fuk up' crowd to help with the their PR campaign.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 4, 2013 - 09:19am PT
From what I can tell the only 'Climbing' they did was with Paul Lyin' Ryan.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Philo, from the pictures on their blog, they are getting in more climbing then you are these days.
John M

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
they didnt ask anything -

You presume too much Riley. Here in california I have worked with migrant workers and asked them questions and gotten a yes, when in fact they didn't understand a word that I said and had to ask one of their friends who did speak english. I learned quickly that just because they said yes didn't mean that they understood you.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say Riley. I'm just not certain that you can be so certain in this case.

But whatever. I don't really have a dog in this race. Its just interesting to me. It would be cool to go down there and talk to the villagers over a beer. One newspaper down there quoted the village mayor as eluding to that they got a beating for being robbers. Are you saying the newspaper lied?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Interesting. The story has changed a bit...

While they were passing around the beers, two men in their 30s pulled up on motorbikes. They talked about the village, telling the travelers quirky facts about the area and its history.

“They seemed excited,” Wolfrom said.

After chatting with the two men, the group started to see small lights descending a nearby hillside. About 25 villagers were headed toward the group with flashlights.

I thought they asked these guys if it was ok and then after they said yes, the guys started calling everyone on their cell phones and yelling and screaming?? Weird....
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
From the linked article upthread:

Though Jed and Meghan made it safely out of Peru, they still are traveling in South America and have had limited Internet access.

Knott so traumatized to prevent them from continuing their "adventure". I'm sure they very much appreciate your generous donations!

Some villagers smelled of alcohol, Wolfrom said.

This is almost certainly bullshít. Aside from their supposedly only purchasing 2 beers for a birthday celebration for 3 people, assuming they did indeed split those 2 beers equally (8 oz each), that's enough to give a woman of average build a nice buzz, and would put her BAC at approx. .015 to .020.

When you've been drinking you can't detect the smell of alcohol on others; anyone who consumes alcohol knows this.
John M

climber
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Stories often change after a stressful event. The memory is a strange thing. A friend of mine works with rape victims. She describes how different the story becomes over time. It doesn't always mean the person was lying.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
If you've ever been interviewed by media, you'd understand that usually only a small fraction of what you tell them is published in the article. Even where the media publishes interviews, you don't get to read the full interview most of the time--they publish excerpts.

Just because the news article doesn't include every detail that was in Jenny's article doesn't mean that it is inconsistent or that Jenny's story "changed."

When they spoke to the two villagers on motorbikes, they probably talked about the village and also about camping.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

True. When things like that which have been reported multiple times change all of a sudden, i tend to find it suspicious.

It does sound more like the real version of what happened, less sensationalist.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 4, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Riley, after you learn how to handle encounters with uniformed park rangers in ways that don't result in you getting beat up, you'll be more qualified to lecture us on how to handle encounters with an angry mob. You were at hothead then, and you're being a hothead now.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 4, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
I don't know what side to believe; I do find it as exciting though as the tales of Wings of Steel and weither a commercial plane or a missle hit the Pentagon.
This would make a horrible book/movie but maybe an afterschool special for the little ones, flower it up with cartoon scenes of Peru.
They want donations??! Really? Anyone who allows these kids to continue travelling in South America likely gives money to also to T.V. Evangelists - depart with your $ how you see fit.
I am gonna be in Jackson with my son in April, I would love to attend the 'donations supper', sounds like fun fun.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 4, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
To paraphrase Werner: there's a whole lotta mental speculating goin' on here
with few facts to base such activity on. What's to be gained other than
to reinforce the need to be respectful and aware anywhere you go?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
What's to be gained other than
to reinforce the need to be respectful and aware anywhere you go?

Another thing to be gained is realizing that being respectful and aware does not mean you will always be safe.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 4, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
From the Wolfrom's blog:

We have also received a great amount of support and disbelief from Peruvians over this incident taking place in their country. We would like to express that we too are in disbelief. We have spent two amazing months in this country before this incident and cannot say we met a single other sole that wasn’t warm and welcoming to us. There are bad people everywhere in the world, in every country, just as there is good everywhere in the world. We just happened to enter in to the wrong place at the wrong time. We in no way reflect this situation on the country as a whole and hope that others will react in the same manner.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:37am PT
Really? This thread is still going?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:35am PT
Seem to be getting press...

http://www.drudgereport.com/ which links to:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bound-beaten-and-robbed-backpackers-attacked-by-whipbrandishing-peruvian-villagers-in-savage-two-day-ordeal-8480069.html
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:14am PT
One thing about the Drudge report that healeyje posted that rings true to my experience overseas was that the American consulate was uninterested in helping until the news media and senators got involved. Ordinary tax paying citizens don't count for much at those places in my experience.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2013 - 08:01am PT
Riley, the nurse detective, do you 'believe' Americans landed on the moon?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 5, 2013 - 08:25am PT
Well I believe Americans have landed on the moon. But they weren't beat up by any locals so you may not have heard about it.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Feb 5, 2013 - 09:01am PT
This thread is STILL here? I can't believe I clicked.. I really can't believe I'm posting.

I'm totally over it at this point and gotta go with DMT ...

Who gives a sh#t who to believe? ... Belief is irrelevant.

DMT


PS:


Riley my friend.. in my experience vegetarian diets turn most people into passive tree-hugging wankers. The only thing vegetarians get this riled up about is GMO's. Just admit it.. you've been filching bacon and sirloin on the side and washing it down with that Mountain Dew(?) you used to drink by the case ;) That or is it Texas living..? That place is evil.. evil I tell you. It's flat and full of rednecks. Come back to Cali Riley. I'll buy you a tofu burger and take you climbing at the beach. Come back before it's too late... :)

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Those of you supporting the Peruvians are really funny.

Explain. Why is it funny to support the people who live there and had their lives interrupted by foreigners who didn't speak the language and refused to show any ID? You'd rather take the side of the "extreme adventurers" who boldly vacationed in another country, figuring it would be fine if they knew nothing about the area, the language, or the people?
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Is there any windshield experts that can tell if the two impacts on the photo are outward(drunken heads) or inward(crazed locals). It is odd that such impact never left much damage on the girl who would have hit your skull.
Who to believe DMT, this is fun!
WBraun

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
The windshield damage was definitely rocks .....
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
I agree with Werner. The damages look to have originated from the outside.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
The one on the driver's side is from a rock. But look at the other one... clearly a much broader object caused the one in the middle. I'm guessing it was the dude's head. It all makes sense... a chick was driving (which is why they ended up in the ditch). The dude was sitting in the back, between the seats and bloodied his head when he hit the glass, then banged his jaw against the dash or other person's head.


Sad that it all could have been avoided with a little common courtesy and common sense.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
The middle one looks to have an outside impact mark just like the drivers side to me.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
SuperTopo: where I always go first for crime scene analysis of pictures
on the intardnet.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
It would be wise, if a Blue Ribbon panel (Pabst does not qualify) were formed and sent down there posthaste to get to the bottom of this important matter once and for all.

Dinner and companionship will be provided gratis.


Addendum: Licky may not serve.




Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Feb 5, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Hence the phrase "looks like". Although I have seen a few broken windows in my time.. I swear I never broke any of em! ;)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
rock: high density fractures near point of impact approximately twice the size of the rock, tightly spaced concentric rings

head: lower fracture density near point of impact gradually becoming less dense away from the point of impact, wider spacing between concentric rings

horse:
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Aah Jim good point. And would there not be airbags gone off too if it was heads?
This is so Wings of Steel.
Maybe the movie will tell the real truth hehe
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Jan: American consulate was uninterested in helping...

Hey, that's patently untrue. When I was in jail in Tokyo they came right over with the latest copy of Newsweek. Unfortunately, I wasn't in it so I never saw or heard from them again.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
I'm guessing it was the dude's head. It all makes sense... a chick was driving (which is why they ended up in the ditch). The dude was sitting in the back,

According to Jenny, the dude (her brother Jed) was driving.


http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=9499

No more than 10 minutes after leaving the village, the group reached a school. They asked the headmaster if they could camp. He denied their request and turned them away.

Villagers had created a small roadblock with boulders, Wolfrom said. Attempts to talk failed and they decided to simply drive over the roadblock.

As they were driving, someone threw a large rock through the passenger side window, striking Jenny Wolfrom in the jaw. Others cracked the windshield.

Down the road, they came to a larger roadblock of boulders about 2 feet tall, Wolfrom said. On one side of the road was a cliff. The other side was an irrigation ditch.

Jed Wolfrom aimed for the canal and gunned it, trying to make it through. The truck flipped on its side.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
The truck flipped on its side.

Down the road, they came to a larger roadblock of boulders about 2 feet tall, Wolfrom said. On one side of the road was a cliff. The other side was an irrigation ditch.

I don't see enough rocks to make a 2" tall roadblock... let alone a 2 foot tall roadblock.

I also don't see cliffs on either side of the road.

Do you?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
In the beginning I was trying to ignore this thread, but then let myself get sucked in. I was surprised that people jumped to the conclusion so quickly that the whole account was a hoax and wouldn't even give them the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know (and still don't know) what happened, but their story did not sound as unlikely as many here claimed.

Then people said they weren't even climbers This is false. They have climbing pics all over their blog.

I don't think some people care about the truth.

The only detailed accounts we have is from the Wolfroms and I wish we had a police report, or newspaper reports by journalists that spent more time interviewing the people in the village. However, according to the Peru papers, the mayor of the village and the authorities believe that they were attacked.

The excuse is that the villagers thought they might have been cattle thieves. But how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru?

Maybe they shouldn't have tried to drive away, and shouldn't have tried to drive around the barricades. I think this was a mistake. But if their instincts were telling them that something bad was going down and they needed to run, maybe it would have been a mistake not to try to escape. A book, "The Gift of Fear" was recommended here on Supertopo and I read it. According to that we should trust our instincts when they tell us to flee, because they are often right. I think that the way they were treated, especially the way the women were treated, points to their instincts being right.

Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Maybe there is a cliff ahead, behind the photog?
I also don't see broken glass on the seats from the rock that came through the passenger window, or pieces of glass still stuck in the window caseing?
Or on the ground but it very well could be on the ground on the side of the truck we can't see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Dingus, you know enough about geology to make a reasonable inference there.

Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy...
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
In the beginning I was trying to ignore this thread, but then let myself get sucked in. I was surprised that people jumped to the conclusion so quickly that the whole account was a hoax and wouldn't even give them the benefit of a doubt. I didn't know (and still don't know) what happened, but their story did not sound as unlikely as many here claimed.

Then people said they weren't even climbers This is false. They have climbing pics all over their blog.

I don't think some people care about the truth.

The only detailed accounts we have is from the Wolfroms and I wish we had a police report, or newspaper reports by journalists that spent more time interviewing the people in the village. However, according to the Peru papers, the mayor of the village and the authorities believe that they were attacked.

The excuse is that the villagers thought they might have been cattle thieves. But how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru?

Good points. One of the few things we can safely conclude is that they were in fact attacked, even if many people posting here seem to think the attack was justified.
In addition to how many gringo cattle thieves have there been in Peru, I'd like to know how many cattle-thief gangs are composed mostly of women.
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
"Gerg, it was supposedly dark when they wrecked. How would they even be able to see a cliff? Not that the terrain looks all that cliffy..."

haha you make a good point mechrist, i have done donuts on the icey Canadian highways before at night not realizing a cliff existed until I got out of the car; this sleuthing behind a computer is fun.

And I am not totally against their story at all, but unlike the USA, in Peru they are guilty until proven innocent, and this happened in Peru.
Also not to flog this but, how come we never saw the planes being carted away from the Pentagon or that empty farmers field? We have a right to ask. Some of us travel to Peru and have a right to know what happened.
Maybe goggle maps would find us that 'cliff'?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
this sleuthing behind a computer is fun

Just like the movies!

Here's a view looking the other way... I don't see any cliffs, but now I see A SINGLE rock bigger than 4" I would expect AT LEAST one photo to show AT LEAST a small portion of the "roadblock" or at least SOME materials lying around that could be used to build it.


The ditch doesn't seem that hard to avoid by driving on the other side... the one with the big cliff...




Does it really matter what the locals thought they were doing? They didn't speak the language, were drinking, refused to show ID, and were most likely pricks. You are likely to get run out of damn near any small town damn near anywhere for acting like that.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
This big adventure took place just off the main highway to Machu Pichu, which gets millions and millions of tourons, like niagra falls or the grand canyon. A few years ago they were going to build an airport near Cuzco because that's where the tourons go, and they're not interested in Lima.

For whatever reason, these guys didn't look like tourists to the locals who felt threatend by them. Did they think they were cattle rustlers? I doubt it. They were just paranoid after being robbed repeatedly. The gringos didn't look like tourons, who don't rent cars to go to Machu Pichu. And no tourist drives their own car from the US to Peru. That's what's so unique about this and why the Peruvians would think its strange. They didn't know who they were, and didn't like it that the gringos tried to run when asked for ID. Then there was a mob psychology that kicked in once they started using pepper spray to try to escape. Things just escalated as one mistake after another was made. The story seems pretty simple and not a lot of the facts are disputed. It just depends whether you feel sorry for them or not. I don't.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I don't think anyone really believes the locals-thought-they-were-cattle-thieves theory, at least I hope not.

Just guessing, but I see a number of reasons why the locals may have attacked them and then beat them:

1. Not showing ID and driving away. The locals might have seen this as being disrespectful and also as evidence that they were guilty of something.
2. Trying to drive through the crowd and around the barricade. The locals could have felt that they were in danger of being hit by the truck and were being "attacked" by it. In the U.S. police have shot and killed people just for trying to run barricades. The police claim that they were being assaulted with a "deadly weapon" (the vehicle) and acted in self-defense.
3. Pepper-spraying the locals.
4. The forming a of a "mob mentality" among the local hotheads. When an event like this goes down, in Peru or anywhere, you can count on it drawing the local hotheads, just like dog poo attracts flies. The less hotheaded people stay away.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
There is a very good possibility that 'cattle thieves' are women- when I have been to Peru/Bolivia many women assume the roll of tending the cattle, building houses, I even hiked 20km into the back country once and found the sheep herders to be young girls that should be in school.
Many Shining Path members were women, so just because that roll is not normal legally tending or illegally stealing cattle in the USA, doesn't mean it doesn't happen down there.

I was shot at with a handgun down there from a car becuase my friend 'fingered' them, weird stuff does happen from the locals you may not expect.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
We'll at least no one is claiming this is a Nigerian scam anymore, at least we have come that far.
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Incredible. Just...incredible.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Not that I have an opinion on any of the who did what, but when I had first read the quote where the local constable(or whomever it was) said they thought they were (a word which translated to cattle rustlers), I wondered if that same word might be used to describe people who come to kidnap children to then sell for adoption. Or worse(I just discovered, which you will, to below).


From: The 10 Reasons Children Go Missing, on MissingChildrenInternational
Link: http://missingchildreninternational.org/articles/ten_reasons_why_children_disappear.html

4. The world we live in is no stranger to one of the biggest reasons many of our children disappear without a trace. Many children are abducted and sold for body parts throughout the United States, Central America, South America and Europe. The Internet has become one of the greatest sources of business and the organized underground business is one of the most successful businesses anywhere in the world.

Can you imagine having the need of life and searching the Internet and finding a broker who can find you the organ of your choice? Here in the U.S.A., in Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica, anywhere in Central, North and South America, anywhere for a price you can pay for and get the organ of your choice. If you don't believe it, search the net right here right now in Orange County, New York or anyplace in the world.

Many missing children are abducted and sold for these body parts. This is a multi-million dollar a year business. Be careful when your child is talking to a friendly little girl in a chat room. The Internet is worldwide and sometimes deceptive. The chat room your child uses could be somewhere in Mexico or New York, India, The Middle east or Korea . Your child could be talking to anyone, anywhere with the touch of a button, so close.


I can EASILY see a village kicking ass and kicking it HARD if they feared those people were there to steal their precious sons and daughters.

Those people don't look like cattle thieves but "two nice young ladies" to lure an innocent child and a stronger male for making the grab....


I really had no idea about the body parts thing.



OFF - TOPIC
And while we're at it, take a read on the #5 reason children disappear, according to that link.

Next time you see that pretty young blond at the local tittie bar, or in the whorehouse, for those who use them - look into the eyes of that young lady and see if you can any longer tell yourself they are choosing to be there.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Happie, that could be a variation on the Pishtaco myth.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2033922&msg=2041850#msg2041850
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
I was shot at with a handgun down there from a car becuase my friend 'fingered' them, weird stuff does happen from the locals you may not expect.

"fingered them"? Does this mean giving them the middle-finger? That could get you shot in parts of the U.S also.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
GraniteClimber - Can you clarify what you meant by a "variation?" I read about the Pistacho, but my link refers to modern criminal activity, and the link is coming from an international aid organization. Stealing children is no myth.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

U.S.: 4.8 intentional homicides per 100,000.
Peru: 10.3 intentional homicides per 100,000.

So there are more than twice as many intentional homicides in Peru then in the U.S. per capita. So much for Peru being as safe as the U.S.

If you're reading the thread about the murders in Mexico, you'll see posts claiming that Mexico is also just as safe as the U.S. That's not true because Mexico had 22.7 intentional homicides per 100,000, making it more dangerous than both the U.S and Peru.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
The world we live in is no stranger to one of the biggest reasons many of our children disappear without a trace. Many children are abducted and sold for body parts throughout the United States, Central America, South America and Europe.


Happie, I don't believe it. Without any evidence, this is just another crazy conspiracy theory. Also, that's not the web site of any reputable "international international aid organization." To me it just looks like advertisement for a private investigator. http://missingchildreninternational.org/about_us.html

Can you give me an example of a SINGLE child that was abducted in the United States (or any of the other countries listed) and sold for "body parts."

Most of us don't even think of children used as pawns for a big price. Young blonde girls are kidnapped and sold for prostitution. This happens mostly in Middle Eastern Countries. Many of them have been know throughout history to love and enjoy young white blonde girls. Korea and Japan are also part of this corruption, or perversion. There are men and women who love and enjoy being around these young children. It is possible that some young boys and girls are kidnapped for a bigger purpose, breeding.

Can you give me a a single example of a white blonde child kidnapped in the United States for the purpose of being used as a prostitute in a brothel in the Middle East or Korea or Japan?

This is our version of the Pishtaco myth.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Next time you see that pretty young blond at the local tittie bar... look into the eyes of that young lady...

That would be missing the point. Besides, I prefer brunettes.

... and see if you can any longer tell yourself they are choosing to be there.

You could play the same game with 99% of the young ladies that work at fast food joints, only it wouldn't be nearly as fun.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
^^^^^^

And you're still here reading it and posting on it.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Happie, I don't believe it.

Then perhaps you could take a moment out of your day and peruse the links from the search queary I did, which was "are children kidnapped in SouthAmerica to be adopted by US people?"

The results are here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=are+children+kidnapped+in+SouthAmerica+to+be+adopted+by+US+people%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

One of the top links is a New York Times article about kidnapped children being put up as adoptables. However, the story is about the country of China, so I suppose that doesn't offer any proof that it could be happeneing in South America... even though SA babies are often a consideration for potential adoptive parents here in the US.

Also, that's not the web site of any reputable "international international aid organization." To me it just looks like advertisement for a private investigator.

Look at the footer, which indicates: "Missing Children International is a California Non Profit Organization 501(c)(3)"

I think it would be a conflict of interest to run a for-profit detective agency under the guise of a registered Not-For.



MeChrist - That is vile. But just more of what the Supertopo admin has tacitly agreed is acceptable content on their site. It still makes you vermin to post it, though.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Whatever happie. I have a couple friends that were strippers. They made A FUKING KILLING and used it as a stepping stone for their lives/careers. From what I can tell, they live happy lives with very happy hubbies.

Of course sex trafficking is horrible... but that doesn't mean every pair of tits on the intardweb or every pastie at a strip club belongs to someone who has been taken advantage of. And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean anyone who enjoys looking at them supports sex trafficing... any more than someone who smokes pot supports the Taliban's heroin trade.

Get over it... or get out there and do something that actually makes a difference. Bitching about tits on the internet is the new pathetic.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Keep the Motherf*#king magic alive!XOXOX
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Happie,

Look at the footer, which indicates: "Missing Children International is a California Non Profit Organization 501(c)(3)"

So what, do you know how easy it is to form a 501(c)(3)organization?

I think it would be a conflict of interest to run a for-profit detective agency under the guise of a registered Not-For.

You can own a business and also a 501(c)(3) and spray about the business on the 501(c)(3) web site. The business is legally separate. http://melendezandassociates.com/about.html Read that and decide whether that is someone you trust.

The "About Us" section of the MSI site just sprays about the detective. http://missingchildreninternational.org/about_us.html



Some questions for you, Happie.

How many employees does MSI have?

What are its gross receipts?

They claim to be "international" - what international operations do they have?

How many children has MSI helped find? MSI's home page claims that MSI is "staffed with expert detectives that can assist you and the public in helping to find lost, missing children and runaway teens. If you are missing a loved one and need assistance, please phone us at any time 24 hours a day for a free, confidential discussion of how we may be able to help."

Have they found even one? How many "expert detectives" are on their staff?

I searched for MSI's Form 990 but the Foundation Center database only has 2003 and 2002 and shows that their gross receipts are not normally more than $25,000 per year. At this level, they are not required to file returns. How many reputable international aid organizations do you know that have a budget of less than $25,000 per year?

http://990finder.foundationcenter.org/990results.aspx?990_type=&fn=missing+children+international&st=CA&zp=&ei=&fy=&action=Find




The bottom line is that you were fooled by their web site, Happie.


Edit: The MSI web site claims " Melendez made the press for solving the highly reported 1997 murder of young Denise Huber, an Orange County child whose killer was captured and remains behind bars." But this is not supported by this news article from the time. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19940718&id=vN9WAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ousDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5512,4478897 You can argue over what "solving" means, but there's nothing indicating that the police found her though this efforts.




Edit:
MeChrist - That is vile. But just more of what the Supertopo admin has tacitly agreed is acceptable content on their site. It still makes you vermin to post it, though.

I didn't think so, because I think that in the U.S. at least, most strippers are making a lot more money and are lot happier about their jobs then people working at McDonalds. Also, they work in strip joints because they want to, not because someone is making them. Why don't you talk to some, Happie?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Keep the Motherf*#king magic alive!XOXOX

Robert L. Chalfant, Esq., your posts used to have content worth reading. Now all you post is crap. If you posted something worthwhile recently, I haven't read it.

You killed whatever magic you used to have.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
My post was originally intended SIMPLY to say that PERHAPS it made sense the villagers were freaked out because they thought the travelers could be there to steal children.

It was a pretty simply point, and there is no need for me to be required to step and style to your demands to provide "proof" of your tangential point.

Ignore the fact that children are kidnapped throughput the world, or that women are forced into prostitution, because you wouldn't dare take the time to be concerned it may be truem if you must. I can see how life would be much easier that way for.

As for what I "do" - you wouldn't be able to handle "what I do" and what I have done; I am fairly certain of that.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
My post was originally intended SIMPLY to say that PERHAPS it made sense the villagers were freaked out because they thought the travelers could be there to steal children.

And you had a legitimate point... then you got distracted by boobies. Happens to the best of us.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
My post was originally intended SIMPLY to say that PERHAPS it made sense the villagers were freaked out because they thought the travelers could be there to steal children.

It was a pretty simply point, and there is no need for me to be required to step and style to your demands to provide "proof" of your tangential point.

It was a simple point, and a good point, and I agreed with it!

I simply pointed out that this was similar to the phishtaco myth, and you insisted that it was no "myth" and started posting links from MSI and claiming this proved your point. That, I do not agree with.

Edit: Shut up Locker. I usually like you and like what you say. But I think what you did on the other thread is DESPICABLE. Happie is WAY out of your league now.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
GraniteClimber - I did ask for clarification as to why you thought this was a myth -I wouldn't say that was huffy.

I guess I was surprised at your response that you "didn't buy it" when I have to admit I thought people pretty much knew that children are kidnapped, though body parts was not something I had considered before. Frankly, when I know that children are abducted for use in child pornography, when I know that women are coerced into prostitution, it didn't surprise me.

Perhaps I have seen more than some people and it colors my worldview, but I can't ignore what I have seen and what I know, if only out of honor for those who have suffered and died at the hands of others(there's that damned word "honor" being abused again...right.)

Let's not fight. This forum has seen too much fighting. And thank you for supporting me in that post. I appreciate that.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
"You killed whatever magic you used to have."

"Magic" is for old folks re-living their past. All I have is this incredibly stupid thread speculating as to what happened in Peru.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Yes, the "huffy" characterization was rude and not called for. I edited my post to delete it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
"You killed whatever magic you used to have."

"Magic" is for old folks re-living their past. All I have is this incredibly stupid thread speculating as to what happened in Peru.

No, Chalfant, your posts used to have "magic" for me, at least more than they do now. You've changed. Or I have. But I think it's you. Look at your posts of the last 30 days and compare to several years ago.

If you think this thread is so incredibly stupid, then why are you still here reading it?

I thought it was funny when you posted upstream " Anyone else want to pull an opinion out of their ass" and then started pulling opinions out of your ass.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
I get the sense that there is still the strong traditional division of labor in this area.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
atchalfalfa, I still love you... but only because you appear to be a panda.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
That's not a panda. It's an opossum.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
I hate you atchafalafel.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Thanks Mechrist, you were missed my many and glad you are back.

GC, why so angry? Lighten up Francis, and lets make up.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 5, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I am going to Peru this summer! Not sure if this is a good thread to spray about it... lol
Psilocyborg

climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
If you were gnar gnar you would go to the village and ask if you can camp there
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:06am PT
So did we get this figured out yet?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:16am PT
Yes, I was right all along. Told you so.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Feb 6, 2013 - 01:27am PT
Vitaly you'll love it there. I've spent time in the Huaraz/Cordillera Blanca and it's heaven. What goals do you have in mind?

Giving some positivity to this on it's way to 1000!!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 7, 2013 - 11:14am PT
What goals do you have in mind?

Really want to do Cayesh (ambitious), Alpamayo, Coraz, Jager route on a peak whose name I can't spell at the moment, a few unclimbed faces and much more. 7 weeks!

Most of all, can't wait to eat cuy!!!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 7, 2013 - 11:44am PT
How dare those gringos own a nice truck and insult the masses with its shiny paint job.

I don't give a flying fuk about their nice truck, etc. Mine is nicer... but I don't take it to a 3rd world country where I don't speak the language (or Alabama for that matter), camp in some random location near a village/town I know nothing about, drink beers, refuse to show ID, and THEN get all upset when sh#t gets gnar. Gotta take responsibility for the sh#t you encounter on your adventures.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 7, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Today's travel tip. Vitally - pack extra bear spray and you'll be fine.
mhay

climber
Reno, NV
Feb 7, 2013 - 11:58am PT
1000 posts on this soap opera! Nice!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 7, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Wait, let's have a snack first.

THEN we'll go kick some gringo ass!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 7, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Vitaliy - you should encounter the cuy at some point. People raise them in their homes and they run around like a pack of rats. When its time to cook one up, the way to kill them is to pick them up by the head, and with a snap of the wrist you break their necks. Easy.

On the way to Machu Pichu you should go through the tourist town of Cuzco. There are two big cathedrals there, built by rival Catholic inquisitors, the Jesuits and some other kind, I forget. Off on the side vestibule there is a huge painting of the last supper, and there on the plate in front of Jesus is an upside down cuy with its legs in the air. No sh#t. Also if you look at the woodwork in there, you see the details are all very Andean looking. It's pretty much psychedelic, if you know the kind of patterns I'm talking about. Supposedly they always built the cathedrals on the ruins of demolished Inca temples, and would incorporate the symbols into the new church to try to add some continuity for the believers. Definitely go to Peru - the only thing really disappointing is the coca tea, which is in every single hotel. It didn't do a thing for me and I'd just rather have coffee.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Feb 7, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
can you see boobs in Peru?
more importantly, are they worth seeing?
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Feb 7, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Nice Vitaly. Alpamayo is a gorgeous peak. Had some seasons where climbing wasn't optimal so hope you get a good one.

Look out for into on the Casarotto Route on Huascaran Norte. Not sure if that thing has even seen a second ascent, was a bold solo in it's time. All depends on the conditions of the route. Would be a proud send.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 7, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Off on the side vestibule there is a huge painting of the last supper, and there on the plate in front of Jesus is an upside down cuy with its legs in the air.

WOW Don Paul, you made my day. This is hilarious.

Beth, I will try to google it. Will be my first time in Peru and majority of the things my friend and I have planned come from suggestions from others/guidebook/lurking. So all suggestions are welcome, feel free to email me if you (or anyone else) have any! Our itinerary is flexible/conditions dependent.
Alpamayo is supposed to be super crowded, but I want to at least go and see it in person. Climbing it and seeing one of those gorgeous alpine-glows on it would be awesome.

Additions: Googled that face. It does not look that attractive to me. Looks hard and massive, but not very pretty in a striking way. To my taste. The route seen a second ascent supposedly. Very impressive to get on a face like that alone. http://www.summitpost.org/the-north-face-of-huascar-n-norte/827771
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 7, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
lumpy
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Feb 7, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
Can we not post pictures of dicks and sh#t? Some people work.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 7, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
I found eating the Guniea Pig nasty but otherwise I had a fabulous time in Peru. So will you Vitaliy!! A lil Spanish goes a long way.

There are indeed paintings all over Cuzco, the Devil is portrayed as a conquistador. You may want to do a coupla days there to acclimatize.





mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 7, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Whatever dude. My friends were robbed at gunpoint in Baja back in 1993. They played it cool and got out of it without physical harm. TK even said the robbers asked how the surfing had been.

People don't usually just fly off the handle and start stoning people because they have nice vehicles. If you want to act all tough and REFUSE to show any ID when you are camping on someone's land, drink beers where they usually ain't drunk, and not speak the language, you should be willing to deal with the results.

Ain't got nothing to do with class struggle stuff... it has to do with strangers showing up in a strange land and acting like they gots the right to camp wherever the fuk they please and not show nobody thems ID if thems don't want to. Funny that you keep trying to turn it into a "poor rich Americans were beaten just because they have nice stuff" issue. I'm surprised they made it as far as they did without more issues.

Besides, the story sounds like bullsh#t... 2 foot high road blocks out of what rocks? A cliff? I don't see no stinkin cliff.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 7, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Over here it's an insta-shit storm if you start asking for a foreigner's id.

Over here, if someone with Peruvian plates parked in your field, you'd either call the cops or go chat with them. If they didn't speak 'Merican, were drinking, and seemed disrespectful, you'd prolly get the authorities. From their story, that is exactly what happened.

If they kept giving 'tude, the situation is bound to escalate. Only difference is, over here we have cops that show up within the hour, usually. Over there I'm guessing it could take a while for cops to respond to the villagers... unless of course 'Mericans are involved.

So, these particular Peruvians were the equivalent of those militia men dickholes we got infesting our borderlands?

Sure, whatever. Or they are the equivalent of small town folks who get uneasy when strangers show up and act like dickholes. Go to a "village" up in WY (not Jackson, maybe Cody), set up camp wherever, pop a few beers, and start speaking in some strange foreign language. When an official asks for your papers, get in your car and drive away... then come racing back through town a little while later. If anyone gives you sh#t, blame it on them for being intolerant.

A lot of Indian Jethroes and Joe Bobs, sounds like. I agree, you gotta watch those inbreds wherever you find them.

Yup. Had my share of experiences in UT, NV, ID, and MT that would have turned out WAY worse if I had a worse 'tude towards the locals.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 7, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Mechrist version:

People don't usually just fly off the handle and start stoning people because they have nice vehicles. If you want to act all tough and REFUSE to show any ID when you are camping on someone's land, drink beers where they usually ain't drunk, and not speak the language, you should be willing to deal with the results.

Ain't got nothing to do with class struggle stuff... it has to do with strangers showing up in a strange land and acting like they gots the right to camp wherever the fuk they please and not show nobody thems ID if thems don't want to

Wolfrom version:
Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred from December 29 to December 30, 2012. I flew into Cuzco, Peru on December 22, 2012 to meet my brother and his wife for a 10-day vacation. We stayed in Cuzco for a few days and then went into the mountains to hike a portion of the Asungate Mountain trek. We were in the mountains from December 25 to December 29.

On December 29, 2012, we left the mountains to drive back to Cuzco and towards our next destination of Macchu Picchu. It was getting dark and we knew that driving in the dark was dangerous, so we pulled down a dirt road to camp in the camper on the back of their truck. We pulled into a flat spot near a bridge in the village of Pallcca in the region of Ocongate, Peru at about 6:30 PM. We were drinking two beers between the three of us because it was my 30th birthday and we were celebrating. We were almost immediately approached by two village residents, who were friendly and who we asked if it was ok to park and camp where we had. They said yes. Soon, the two men were blowing whistles and using their cell phones to alert their friends of our presence and many more village residents started gathering around us, including the man who they called the Presidente. We recognized that he was the leader of the community and Meghan asked him directly if we could camp there and he said Yes. We were soon surrounded by indigenous village people who started asking us to give them our documents. We refused to show them our documents as they weren´t Policia and we were getting nervous about their pushiness and decided to leave. We told them we would leave and got into the truck. They wouldn´t let my brother shut his door and started picking up rocks. Joseph finally got his door shut and we drove off quickly in the opposite direction of where we came h
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Joseph and Meghan have been driving for nine months from the United States through Central and South America, camping almost every night in their truck camper and have not yet experienced any violence or danger until this situation which occurred from December 29 to December 30, 2012

Lots of people here who have visited Peru with a guide, or just taken transportation directly to the climbing areas and think they know sh#t. Also, they think they are experts because nothing like this has ever happened to them while they are in Peru.

Unless you have gone an extended car camping trip in South America, the Wolfroms have much more experience with car camping there then you do. Nothing happened to them either, until one day something did happen.

aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
Difficult to say why it happened, but my best guess is that two or three unscrupulous people in the village wanted to steal their stuff, and so spread a false rumor about their intentions in order to provoke a hostile response from the rest of the population. It is not necessarily their fault, nor an indication of some deep seated hostility on the part of Peruvian villagers.

It is also possible that this particular village had a bad experience with previous tourists behaving in a disrespectful way.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 7, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Fact remains... same as it ever was...

Strange lands and separation are the wanderer's lot.
When a man is a wanderer and stranger,
he should not be gruff nor overbearing.
He has no large circle of acquaintances,
therefore he should not give himself airs.
He must be cautious and reserved;
in this way he protects himself from evil.
If he is obliging toward others, he wins success.

A wanderer has no fixed abode; his home is the road.
Therefore he must take care to remain upright and steadfast,
so that he sojourns only in the proper places,
associating only with good people.
Then he has good fortune and can go his way unmolested.

I Ching, written a few years ago or something





cuz you know....


The further you travel, the less you know.
-Lao Tzu





What was that stuff about getting his green barrette buddies together to inflict justice or something? Sounds pretty humble and respectful.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
What was that stuff about getting his green barrette buddies together to inflict justice or something? Sounds pretty humble and respectful.

wow, I think I know that guy.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Feb 7, 2013 - 11:57pm PT





Wes, all the speculation in the world here won't do anything positive. The US goverment will look into this and get back to us on it. As was said earlier, since the media is now involved, they may be interested enough to actually look into it and get real facts.

Meantime, we can continue to speculate here in the absence of any real facts. LOL! Have at it. Sure these kids from jackson hole spend more on toilet paper than these indigenous people make in a year, and the price of the truck could buy the whole county including all the girls under 14. But what's the point in speculating? I pretty much agree with Jan, the poor Peruvian people will take the hit here from tourist cancellations or travel redirect. Hard not to feel bad for those who depend on a few meager tourist bucks to put a little extra chicken in the pot trying to survive for another year...... nah, nevermind, I'm with you - I got it good, like everyone here on ST and in the US - F them, they can starve I suppose.

The villagers are even too stupid to know to set up a facebook account to accept donations. HAH, they don't even have computers! That's why the 3 ass-beaten kids will survive and thrive as they continue their journey with their newly crowdsourced paid for $5,000 Sony laptop etc etc. They copped AT LEAST $12,000 in free chicken scratch out of this. That was the Kickstarter scratch, who can say what they obtained privately via the facebook money collection deal. Thats over $1,000 per stitch fer gods sake. Last 2 times I got stitches I had to pay for it. I'm clearly as stupid as the villagers. No - even stupider (hey Werner, stole yer line:-) as the villagers didn't get any stitches whereas I got lots of them and then had to pay for them. Damn I must be beyond dumb.

Pretty damn sad if you get right down to it. Any of you want to set up a fund for the village? It would be interesting if they got more money raised than the kids.

I'm thinking this is a job for Riley W. or Mechrist. Fellas, step up and make your mark. This will be world class interesting, make the worlds newspapers and all you have to do is start a kickstarter page. Think of the impact of supporting some poor folks financially would provide, instead of with just yer lips which seem unable to stop or reason.

Really. I invite you. Do some good.






mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 02:53am PT
Couch, RW already does plenty of good for those less fortunate.

I won't set up an account to get donations for the villagers because, who knows, they could be as#@&%es. Besides, I'd just take the money and blow it on hookers and coke.

The point here isn't who did what... it will ALWAYS be them vs. them... ALWAYS. I'm just burning time and struck by the obvious lack of enough rocks to build a 2 foot tall roadblock... and the lack of a cliff on the other side of the road.

I'm also a cautious traveler, fully aware that if I get into a shitty situation while traveling it is just part of the price I pay for fun... you can always stay home.

I've always managed to stay out of trouble... and I'm one of the biggest, dumbest as#@&%es I know.
WBraun

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:20am PT
This thread should really be titled:

"Help climbers viciously attacked by internet forums"
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:50am PT
As anyone from over there on the guns thread could tell you, more firepower would have solved the problem once and for all. (for either side)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
You are stuck on some rocks? Easter island, the pyramids, and you think so low of these guys you don't think they could collect a pile of measly road block stones like any other self respecting village? No respect.

I see... you are suggesting they built a 2 foot high rock roadblock across a 20 foot wide road, and then moved all the rocks completely out of sight before any pictures were taken. Those devious country folk!

I've built 2' high rock retaining walls... it takes WAY more rock than is available at that site... WAY more (I see 1 rock bigger than 6" and a few that are ~4"). I'm willing to bet my worthless prospective degree on it. It also takes WAY longer to construct and deconstruct than the story allows.

There is AMPLE room to drive on the other side of the road, the one with "the cliff" not the ditch, where the town folk are gathered.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
QITNL, that was hilarious!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
I've spent way too much of my life looking at rocks, geomorphology, and soils to allow anyone to claim a 2' wall was built across the road using native stone. Same thing if someone shows me a picture of southern Utahesque sandstone and claims they are glacial erratics... or a picture of Pinnacles and tells me there is good climbing there. I know better and nothing anyone can say changes the geologic truth revealed in the landscape.

peas
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
So, youchrist, have there been humans on the moon?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Of course there has
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Given the position of the car in the ditch, it is obvious they were driving off the road for some reason, and tried to get back on when they got stuck in the ditch. A point ignored by everyone. Most likely what they were driving around is a ways back. Road blocks made of rocks are apparently a common tactic in this region. a picture http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/1a7baf/ Who says they all collected the rocks in an instant? My guess is the rocks would be already collected and sitting in a pile ready to be dispersed (would make sense if they had problems with thieves), or would be an extension of rock walls in the area perhaps further back than the picture would show. Or maybe they are lying. Point is we all have an agenda here and are interpreting the pictures as we see fit.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
Most likely what they were driving around is a ways back.

You mean, like right around here?


I don't care how many villagers you have, you ain't gonna get THIS v from THAT ^


And you sure as sh#t not gonna get THAT ^ out of every single picture taken from various different angles.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Must be photoshopped. Those mountains have no rocks, and those simple country folk know nothing about building walls!






















pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
The pictures say nothing confirming OR denying a wall. Keep in mind the picture was taken the day after the incident had occurred and the villagers probably wanted to hide their involvement if they indeed were involved.

Look at the where the truck is, why were they driving off road? Don't give me that drunk crap, look at their blog, there is no history of them getting wasted and partying it up. Two beers between three people does not do this to you. All the other picture shows is the ditch running a short ways back, they were probably driving on the opposite side of it before what the picture shows.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Missing the point bud. The biggest rock in ANY of their pictures is the one by her foot. No rocks in front of them, no rocks behind them.


I don't care how many cities your ancestors built, you can't build a 2 foot high road block with a couple rocks.

(Going back for that picture I realized Fluoride already picked up on this discrepancy in the story. Credit where credit is due... geologist by chance? Or maybe just observant.)


Maybe they thought they were on this road...

pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Really ME? I see a hell of a lot more rocks in that picture than one.

Edit to add.. Nice edit. I see a hell of a lot more rocks in the picture of the Wolfroms than one.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Okay, there might be 3. There certainly ain't enough to build a 2 foot high roadblock.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Look closer.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
God, please tell me you are referring to the walls 1/4 mile away... I need a good laugh.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Yes the rock walls, containing rocks, that could be used to make a rock wall.

That are fairly close. That exist on the hillier side of the road that is not shown in the rest of the photographs, or extensively in this photograph.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
hahahaaaahaaaaaa. Those Peruvians are more devious than I could have ever imagined.

The road ended at a school about 10 minutes after we started driving. There was a man there and we asked him if we could camp and he said no, so we had to turn around and start driving back towards where we first encountered the mob. Soon we were approached by two motor bikes coming from the village and many people on foot. They started approaching the vehicle and we asked them if we could please leave. They said they would not let us leave and then started throwing rocks at the truck and building a rock blockade on the road in front of us. We drove over the first blockade and there were villagers up on the hill above the road continuing to throw rocks at the truck. They threw a large rock through the passenger window, breaking it and hitting me in the face and cutting my jaw. They also threw a rock through the driver’s side window, hitting my brother. We soon were met with another large road blockade of boulders that we could not drive through. At this blockade they threw rocks at the windshield and destroyed it.

That's a lot of fuking rocks to take out of a wall 1/4 mile away... and then put back by the next morning.


I have no doubt the villagers were throwing rocks. I have no doubt the situation could have been completely avoided. I also have no doubt the story is sensationalized, whether intentionally or not doesn't matter.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
As for me, I'm amazed at the armchair quarterbacks who seriously think their half-informed pronouncements merit any respect whatsoever. ST: Solving the world's issues daily... riiiigghht.

And I'm amazed that people regularly take the time to post on threads devoted to bullshitting about some miscellaneous news story or other to register an objection to that bullshitting.
But I suppose it's fun to go through life with a sense of amazement over trivial things, so carry on.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
Riley
You really think these villagers have a good relationship with the police? Given the history of Peru?

MeChrist
No one said they took the rocks from those specific rock walls a quarter mile away, we don't see what is behind them on that side of the road, maybe a rock wall that comes close? Sure looks like there are plenty of rocks in the area to me which you claimed there weren't.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
New Mini series:

Mechrist and Riley.... Interweb detectives

...this week on assignment in Peru....

What made normally peaceful villagers fly into a rage, was it the lime-green nano puffs or the drunken, lying Americans?

...don, Don, DON!
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 03:53pm PT


All that matters is the truth of the situation and the truth of the details!
You don't even have to know what they are lying about - the sister tells us enough with her own words for us to know that the way they depict their victimization is simply not true.

I think Riley nailed this discussion
Al_Smith

climber
San Francisco, CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
I've been trying to avoid this whole thread (especially taking a stance on what did or did not happen) as I like to visit Supertopo to give and receive climbing advice, read PellucidWombat's completely fabulous TRs, etc.

That said, I just have to say that the thing that pisses me off most about this saga and the Wolfrom's account of it, is the part where they state that they were whipped with ropes and tortured.

The original rock throwing, bear spray spraying, barricade building hysterics may have happened in a gigantic misunderstanding (or worse.) Claiming to have been tortured through the night (other than psychologically as it relates to their fear of being killed or the like) is pretty f'in serious.

They have nothing to prove to me or anyone else, and I feel sorry for them in so much as they are obviously injured and had a trip ruined. I also feel bad for the Peruvians who rely on the tourist industry to earn a living who may see diminished revenues as a result of the media hubbub surrounding this.

But again, if you claim you have been tortured but are able to write/blog about it just days after, then I've got some serious questions about your credibility.

Here's hoping the truth comes out or that this all goes away very, very soon.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 8, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
I also feel bad for the Peruvians who rely on the tourist industry to earn a living who may see diminished revenues as a result of the media hubbub surrounding this.

The climbers are promoting it for fundraising purposes. Someone should ask them if they think they're damaging the tourist industry there, at the upcoming black tie event in Jackson Hole.
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
The pictures say nothing confirming OR denying a wall. Keep in mind the picture was taken the day after the incident had occurred and the villagers probably wanted to hide their involvement if they indeed were involved.

Look at the where the truck is, why were they driving off road? Don't give me that drunk crap, look at their blog, there is no history of them getting wasted and partying it up. Two beers between three people does not do this to you. All the other picture shows is the ditch running a short ways back, they were probably driving on the opposite side of it before what the picture shows.

Probably hide their involvement? I thought we are not speculating?
They said they had two beer thats not really drunk but, uuuh, they likely slid off cause it's really muddy there and if a rock was tossed at the window in the night then may not have noticed a deep canal.

I am on Riley and Mechrists side; the rock wall thing does not add up, or the "cliff" they saw in the night.
and sorry, people really gave them $$ via Facebook??!
Really? no? haha
Gerg

Trad climber
Calgary
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
This is so a book I am buying!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:12pm PT

I have been trying to think of an analogy for this thread - the best I can come up with is a Calculus class where a few folks have already got it, a few will never get it, a few haven't even opened the book and the rest are strung out in various corners of not understanding.

Yeah, Riley and you're one of the ones strung out in a corner.

You can't even drive around in the U.S. without getting into altercations and getting tooled. Wait until you've learned how to behave at home before telling us what we should do in Peru.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
But again, if you claim you have been tortured but are able to write/blog about it just days after, then I've got some serious questions about your credibility.

They never used the word "torture" but said that they had rocks thrown at their heads and were whipped with ropes and beaten. They major of the village as admitted that they were attacked. The pictures taken in the morning when the police arrive show them pretty beaten up.

So now they are lying because they shouldn't be able to write about it? Maybe you would still be having a nervous breakdown and be peeing your pants days later, but all that shows is that most people are stronger then you.

I can't prove that everything that they say is true, and I can't prove that some of it isn't incorrect.

But of all the arguments that they are lying on this thread, this is the weakest.

You're making Riley look smart.
Al_Smith

climber
San Francisco, CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
“We were whipped and beaten for a few hours in between sessions of interrogation.”

Sounds like the definition of torture to me.

Either way, you are an interesting person Granite. If you believe that no one has the right to express an opinion or viewpoint except for yourself, then why participate in a forum where the purpose is to express opinions and dialogue with others about things climbing (and not climbing - as the case may be) related? Why not just sit quietly and admire your own intellect and toughness?

Oh and on that score, I think its funny that given that we know each other so well that you find it possible to characterize my relative level of toughness. But if we are discussing the hypothetical of a large group of people beating, whipping, and interrogating me and two of my loved ones over the course of several hours, then yes, I sincerely doubt I'd have the wherewithal or desire to take to my blog the following day to share that suffering with the entire world wide web. I imagine I'd be talking about it, but I'd be doing so with my family, those I shared the experience with, law enforcement, etc. That was my only point. So if that makes me a wuss then I accept the charge.

You on the other hand I take it would be on the Taco the very next day sharing your experience and blathering away about how your family was crying while being whipped and beaten but you took the beating like the champion of courage that you are. And of course, we here on the Taco would neither question your story nor give you a hard time because after all you are so well loved and known to be so tough. I envy your intrepidity and I appreciate you setting me straight. You da' man.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
Joseph finally got his door shut and we drove off quickly in the opposite direction of where we came hoping that the road would lead us away.

That's what I would do if I just upset the locals... drive deeper into the unknown hills!
Alexey

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
for some folks "two bottle of beer" is too much
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
So now they are lying because they shouldn't be able to write about it?

They posted their story 3 days after the occurrence, asking for money and help. It has been over a month and I have yet to see any official documents posted anywhere. In fact, other than their TV appearance, and a "thanks for all the money" post, there doesn't seem to be a peep. Kind of strange for folks with such an intardweb presence to keep quite for so long... especially now that they are back in the US. Just sayin...
WBraun

climber
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
asking for money and help

Didn't their friends make the donations page for them without their original knowledge.

They said they never asked for money.

Am I wrong?

pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
They have a Facebook page they have been updating: http://www.facebook.com/MegaJed?ref=ts&fref=ts

Why should they update anyone on the internet if they didn't even ask anyone on the internet for money?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
All this speculation is just that, speculation.

I prefer to not pass judgement because I don't have all the facts. Neither do any of you.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
We should issue a supertopo subpoena and command their attendance and testimony in this thread.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Totally.
plund

Social climber
OD, MN
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Jesus f'in wept
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
The internet was made for speculation.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
I thought it was made for Al Gore.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=542937699057443&set=pb.335730786444803.-2207520000.1360365829&type=3&theater

The eyeball that shattered a windshield.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
I prefer to not pass judgement because I don't have all the facts. Neither do any of you.

And yet, through the grace of the Today Show and a 1 sided account repeated over and over, any 'Merkin who saw it already has passed judgement. The Peruvians' unprovoked attacks on perfectly innocent US citizens WILL NOT STAND... mahn.

As someone said on their fb page:

"Is there any chance the US could send in some troops to round up those criminals and arrest them? They need to be held accountable for this crime against America."

Yes, when 'Merkins travel to YOUR village and things get out of hand, YOU have committed a crime against 'Merka.


Pat, that was done by a rock... where have you been? Shut up Donny.
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
They were on the today show?

It's just me, but I'd never, ever, discuss a traumatic experience on camera for the world to see.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
eh, whatever it was... who cares.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
"Pat, that was done by a rock... where have you been? Shut up Donny."

I guess I am referring to this comment:

"The one (dent) on the driver's side is from a rock. But look at the other one... clearly a much broader object caused the one in the middle. I'm guessing it was the dude's head. It all makes sense... a chick was driving (which is why they ended up in the ditch). The dude was sitting in the back, between the seats and bloodied his head when he hit the glass, then banged his jaw against the dash or other person's head."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
That's the story that popped into my head and I'm sticking to it.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Which of the two conflicting stories are you sticking to?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 8, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
That one.
pat

Trad climber
estes park
Feb 8, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
"Pat, that was done by a rock (referring to a photo of the guys injury)... where have you been? Shut up Donny."

So fair to say this was sarcasm? Fine, the injury doesn't fit the mechanism of action but whatever, tell the story you want to tell. Its easier than having to separate your dislike for three people based on a knee jerk reaction from holding any sort of real consistent morals that apply to everyone.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:10am PT
Yeah, Riley, until tomorrow. LOL.

Goodnight! :-)
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 9, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
I said it twice and I will say it again:

Strange lands and separation are the wanderer's lot.
When a man is a wanderer and stranger,
he should not be gruff nor overbearing.
He has no large circle of acquaintances,
therefore he should not give himself airs.
He must be cautious and reserved;
in this way he protects himself from evil.
If he is obliging toward others, he wins success.

A wanderer has no fixed abode; his home is the road.
Therefore he must take care to remain upright and steadfast,
so that he sojourns only in the proper places,
associating only with good people.
Then he has good fortune and can go his way unmolested.


I don't dislike the people who got beaten. I dislike the idea of 'Merkins rolling into a small town in a 3rd world country, deciding they get to camp in a random village they know nothing about, and then blaming the residents when sh#t goes south. I have no doubt the situation could have turned out better if the travelers had oozed humble respect and gratitude towards the locals. Personally, I'da sought out a town center of sorts, asked very respectfully for someone in charge, asked them if there was somewhere I could park and sleep for the night, maybe offer them some money for letting me stay, etc. I would NOT have set up camp, started drinking, and then asked random people walking down the road if I could camp there. Driving further up the road after the initial altercation, deeper into the local's HOME territory, is not a sign of respect... more likely to be taken as a direct sign of disrespect.

I also have no doubt the 'Merkins believe every word of their story and believe they did absolutely nothing wrong... how could they, they are 'Merkin tourists on vacation? I think it sucks they got beaten and I certainly don't wish that on anyone. I just have a hard time understanding how someone in that situation could pick out a woman screaming "kill them" in her native language, how there could be no trace of an impassable road block across a road that size in ANY of the available photos, how the story of these 3 'Merkins clashes with every other story I have ever heard about Peruvians, etc. But we should give them the benefit of the doubt... they're 'Merkins on vacation after all, not some dirt poor country bumpkins minding their own business in their own village.

From what I gather from your facebook page link, they are now looking to rent an apartment in Argentina... poor 'Merkins, barely scraping by in whatever part of the world they choose. So did the Today show interview them in S.America? Or did they come home, do the media circuit, and head back for more adventuring? Oh well, they collected over $20,000 (more than I make in a year and likely more than that entire village will see in a lifetime), got the mayor of a poor town to pay for all damages, and generated plenty of animosity towards the Peruvians in the process.

Happy travels.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 9, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
If we repeat our points over enough, do they magically become true?

No, they are already true... which is why they should be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 9, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
weschrist/mechrist can't even post on Supertopo without getting banned and he thinks he will teach us how to behave in Peru.

Is anyone else noticing that it is the posters that have the least ability to control their behavior here that are the most judgmental about how the climbers behaved in Peru, and also the quickest ones to call them liars, and jump to conclusions?
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Feb 24, 2013 - 03:15am PT
Another potential incident of violence in Peru:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/feds-search-bay-area-couple-missing-bike-trip-peru/nWYF6/
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 24, 2013 - 09:00am PT
It sounds way dangerous, come to Colombia instead!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 26, 2013 - 02:23am PT
http://gma.yahoo.com/couple-biking-dream-trip-missing-peru-155910707--abc-news-topstories.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 26, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Good news!

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Missing-Oakland-couple-seen-in-Peru-4310800.php

....relatives have been told that Peruvian authorities spotted the pair in a remote village.

The couple apparently decided on the spur of the moment to take a boat journey and didn't tell their families, she said. It was unclear when they were seen.

"The information told to me is that they are on a boat on the river and that they are sending a plane to find them," she said, adding that she expected to get an update Thursday.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 26, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
Peruvian authorities spotted the pair in a remote village.
"A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,"
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2013 - 10:54am PT
also,

[url="/http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/author/adventureamericas/"]/http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/author/adventureamericas/[/url]
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
May 4, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
I also grew up in a third world country, but as soon as I was old enough I left Texas and moved to Colorado.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 7, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Meanwhile, in nearby Bolivia.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bolivian-villagers-bury-suspected-killer-alive

"LA PAZ, Bolivia (AP) — Villagers in Bolivia's southern highlands buried a man alive in the grave of the woman he is suspected of having raped and murdered, an official said Thursday.

Police had identified 17-year-old Santos Ramos as the possible culprit in the attack on 35-year-old Leandra Arias Janco Sunday in a Quechua community near the municipality of Colquechaca, said Jose Luis Barrios, the chief prosecutor in Potosi province where the community is located.

Enraged, more than 200 community members seized Ramos and buried him alive alongside his alleged victim Wednesday night, according to Barrios. He said residents on Thursday blocked the road to the community, preventing police and prosecutors from reaching it.

A local reporter for an indigenous radio station, who would only speak on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals, told The AP that Ramos was tied up at the woman's funeral. Mourners threw him into the open grave, placed the woman's coffin in it and filled the grave with earth."......


...more, click link if interested. Interesting comments section.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jun 7, 2013 - 10:46am PT
Sounds reasonable to me.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:51am PT
Couchmaster left out the most important paragraph in the link above:

"Also in Potosi, residents of the Quechua indigenous community of Tres Cruces on Wednesday stoned to death a suspected thief and burned his accomplice alive, Barrios said. The official said the two had earlier robbed a car and killed its driver."

View the American tourists in Peru as the possible thieves or the victims in the above paragraph, and consider their possible outcomes. Do you still want to judge them?
Les

Trad climber
Bahston
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:31am PT
Checked out their blog about this time this was all going down, and from the Costa Rica leg of their trip, saw this:

>It was entertaining enough though and we stayed for a few hours. It was only after Jed took it upon himself to de-arm a drunk guy who had found a huge American flag and was obnoxiously waving it around hitting people in the head, that I decided it was time for us to leave. Someone needed to do it, but I was still surprised by Jed’s abrupt actions of yanking the flag out of this guys hands and telling him that was ENOUGH. When I expressed my surprise to Jed, I laughed that his reasoning was not that he was going to hurt someone with the long metal flag pole he was swinging around, but simply that he was making American’s look bad waving an American flag at the Nicaraguan party.
Come on Jed….Why shouldn’t we do that? America…. F*** Yeah!!<

Then the stuff about going back there with his green beret (or however he misspelled it) buddies to shoot up the place, just kind of made me wonder a little about this dude. But whatever.

couchmaster

climber
Jan 20, 2015 - 01:22pm PT


...any updates? Their blog goes mysteriously silent @ July 2013.
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