America the Ignorant...on topic for this forum


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Dec 30, 2012 - 05:08am PT
I think the world population in general is getting dumber by the day, the main reason being that nothing but worthless thrash is being fed to them 24/7 by TV and Internet.
Mix that with religious nuts and you get people that believe that Jesus and AK-47s will save them from all that is bad.

Now the sad thing is that these people are always the one who scream the loudest and make their fkin retarded ideas heard while the smart and educated sit quietly in the back and bow their heads in shame.

I for myself have resigned caring about this stuff all that much because there is nothing that I could do about it anyway. I just try to have a positive effect on the people in my life, thats all I can do to improve this f*#ked up world.

Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:31am PT
why, jim, an off-topic post. maybe the world is going to end soon.

oops--sorry--i forgot--dingus's tractors are on topic too.

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 30, 2012 - 05:40am PT

sweet, blissful ignorance...

introducing....The Wild Man of Borneo



Trad climber
Placerville, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:09am PT
i got a 'un o' those stupid f*#king rubber stamps, i do.
"when you find yourself on the side of the majority, <br/>
it is time to p...
"when you find yourself on the side of the majority,
it is time to pause and reflect" - mark twain
Credit: Norwegian

i can drive a screwdriver,
if hard pressed.

i don't deny that im a dumb c#&%.
this stance of anti-arrogance has served
well my aim to learn forever, and then re-learn never.

my suits are never pressed.
my socks rarely match.
i own whatever i want to own,
if im patient enough to await god's orgasm.
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:40am PT
norsky, you're an engineer! that means you can drive a choo-choo! fun job!

oops, drifting the thread here.

back on topic to our off-topic. maybe there'll be a climbing angle somehow, there always seems to be. like--do you believe that climbers evolve, and does it involve divine intervention?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 07:57am PT

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dogma is the official system of belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. Although it generally refers to religious beliefs that are accepted regardless of evidence, they can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]
The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief"[3] and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine".[4] Dogma came to signify laws or ordinances adjudged and imposed upon others by the First Century. The plural is either dogmas or dogmata, from Greek δόγματα. The term "dogmatics" is used as a synonym for systematic theology, as in Karl Barth's defining textbook of neo-orthodoxy, the 14-volume Church Dogmatics.

Like I said, dogma isn't the problem. Dogma makes our world go round. Look at it this way, us climbers subscribe to various dogmas -alpine style, ground up, etc.... it is the blind dumb part that needs to be shot in the head.

This is the single most significant beef i have with religions. Intransigent blind dumb dogma incapable of evolution without a gun held to its temple. If it wasn't for that I might even jump on board as for the most part religious types are A -OK and for all I know god really did invent the world. I merely request that they show me the money first. This faith stuff is for suckers.

edit: after rereading the above maybe you have apoint in that dogma is my its very definition is intransigent in the face of all opposition -blind, dumb faith.

Anyway, true much of the world is held spellbound by various dogmas, but I really think Werners assertion of 99% is a bit of an exageration. Perhaps I have a bit too much "faith" in humanity but I really think if people ever find themselves free of authoritarian oppression their minds are the first thing to expand . I think this goes for America as much as anywhere. Sometimes the oppression is nothing more than the physical need to fall in lock step with your neighbors if you really want to continue working in this town. Demanded conformity and uniformity are red flags.

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:17am PT
Religion and superstition have nothing to do with it.

YONHAP/EPA - Holding candles, South Korean parents queue to enter Bongeun Temple in the southern area of Seoul, South Korea, on Nov. 3, 2012, to ask for their children to achieve high results on the nationwide college entrance exam.

Parent's attitudes, intransigent teachers unions and the idiocaracies that pass themselves off as departments of education at the college level are the problem.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:38am PT
was up early this am,, went outside in the COLD fresh air- as the most gentle snow was falling..I looked around at the gorgeous white carpet of fresh snow- spotting tracks that came from a grey fox that had been cruising the hood last night. Those tiny lil footprints in the snow suggested to me, that there IS something beyond our knowledge. Who could invent such a little critter as that fox, with its dainty toes and heels tracking through the snow? He is my friend that fox. We exist in a symbiotic way- i have scraps and he likes scraps and together we go through life.

Surely on such a morning of tranquility there are better and bigger powers at work.. I simply cant point a finger to the actual.

Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:43am PT
There's a god? WTF. Nobody said nuthin 'bout no god.

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:45am PT
I do wonder if anybody has ever changed their minds about belief in evolution/natural selection as a result of reading these threads. As someone who occasionally contributes to them, I've gone from thinking that with just a little additional evidence that the (wayward) reader might not be aware of, minds could be changed. Now, I don't think so. Having said that, 15% belief rate is darn right scary.

Somewhere out there
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Front row seats at the freak show


Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 30, 2012 - 08:58am PT
I don't see any conflict between my religious choices and my love of science. Both are an attempt at understanding the world each allows me to look at the world from a different viewpoint and think different ways. Science establishes facts with a near certainty, discovers patterns that can be relied on when venturing into the future. lays the foundation for technologies and tools.

My religion allows me to thrive more in the human condition and gives me an eternal outlook on life. Hope, Faith, optimism, compassion and truth. It is not threatened by any fact. It threatens no facts.

If there is a conflict between either viewpoint towards the other it is just an indicator that ones understanding is therefore wrong and there is something more to learn. As always.

To pretend to know that either of these two areas have no validity seems foolish from either side of the argument.

I find it incredibly frustrating that a significant portion of the population is still arguing about global warming and not working on what to do about it.

Clearly the greatest threat our species faces is population growth but NO-ONE is seriously tackling this issue except perhaps China.

Evolution? Pathetic to see this long settled fact still argued. Fortunately it is not a science with applications that most folks have to work with in any meaningful manner. However there are some fields where it has critical and very technical precise application.

Ignorance? I'd say the ratio of knowledge to lack of knowledge among the best would still be pathetic if rendered in decimal form.. Hmm how may zero's after that decimal point do you figure? Lots I'd say.

To the OP. A couple of times lately you have mentioned a serious issue you are facing. Best luck with it in SLC. There is a lot of love for you here on the Taco.

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Jingy, very good! Sometimes I feel that way too. Which is actually quite sad. Is there no hope? Just give up an enjoy the show? I am getting old and have much less desire to fight. Just enjoy the rest of my days. I feel guilty, though, that I haven't done enough to make this world better for my children...

Dec 30, 2012 - 09:50am PT
Recently encountered an analysis suggesting americans tell their kids they are "smart" while asians ask their kids how hard they are working. There is a world of difference between the two. You have to wonder if this is not also the source of american worship of celebrity. Smart leads directly to asking who is the smartest, best or most famous. (Only a small step from there to talking about who has the biggest boobs.)

No one asks who is working the hardest. We think we can quantify the former but not the latter. So off we go trying to be the best.

Trying to be better today than you were yesterday, is however something one can in some sense get a feeling for. Trouble is that approach puts great value on "work".

"Smart" kids are a dime a dozen. Kids who are working their asses off, are harder to find.

We all have whatever it is we have. There is no expression of self in it. But there is satisfaction from knowing that you have done as much as you could with whatever it was you were given.

Then the self is coming into play.

Dec 30, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Nobody here really knows whats going on.

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:56am PT
Jstan +1
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:04am PT


re: beliefs

Now tell me if this doesn't hit the nail on the head.

"A broader danger of unverifiable beliefs is the temptation to defend them by violent means. People become wedded to their beliefs, because the validity of those beliefs reflects on their competence, commends them as authorities, and rationalizes their mandate to lead. Challenge a person’s beliefs, and you challenge his dignity, standing, and power. And when those beliefs are based on nothing but faith, they are chronically fragile. No one gets upset about the belief that rocks fall down as opposed to up, because all sane people can see it with their own eyes. Not so for the belief that babies are born with original sin or that God exists in three persons.... When people organize their lives around these beliefs, and then learn of other people who seem to be doing just fine without them—or worse, who credibly rebut them—they are in danger of looking like fools. Since one cannot defend a belief based on faith by persuading skeptics it is true, the faithful are apt to react to unbelief with rage, and may try to eliminate that affront to everything that makes their lives meaningful."

Steven Pinker
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:07am PT
Choosing my battles carefully, meaning the worthy ones...

Ron, 82% of Buddhists believe in evolution, along with 45% of Muslims


Must be a highly select group, lol! Michigan USA Muslims, perhaps?


As a person of faith, I am also a student of science. I have no problem with the concept of God or evolution. I do find it hard to understand and merge the two concepts...

Is this not something of a contradiction?

Regarding reality and truth: Either God (Jehovah) mated with a human virgin or He did not. Either the historical Jesus was God Jesus or he wasn't. Either he rose from the dead on the 3rd day or he did not.

These are the claims (the truth-claims) made 1,000 plus years ago. Knowing what you know about humans, human nature, human functioning; among all else, how they cheat, lie, thieve and wheedle, you really think in this day and age of science, education and the internet it is reasonable - repeat: reasonable - as an intellectually honest, civically responsible person to support these claims as historical truth? Maybe take this as a rhetorical question, and I'll just enjoy the show. ;)

Somewhere out there
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:11am PT
Moose -
I feel guilty, though, that I haven't done enough to make this world better for my children...

 That whole "leave it better than you found it" idea….. It's a myth. In order for one to take responsibility for the world being better would require billions of much healthier, stronger, smarter 'mes' or 'yous'.. I'm afraid if it were the case that there were billions of Jingys out there this world would not be much better than it is now with the exception of there being less obstruction in congress.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Look at this picture...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#281264

and tell me times aren't changing... that cultural evolution isn't advancing at a frenzy. (Taking into account that this scene takes place in thousands of college classrooms nowadays around the world; and year after year after year.)

It's just that a watched pot never boils.

Keep the trust (not a blind trust but an evidence based trust).

Thank goodness for young people who aren't afraid to consider things anew.


45% of Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Iran are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman are evolutionists.
45% of Muslims in Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia are evolutionists.

I don't think so.

Meanwhile, Islamic justice in Mali...

“He stole nine times,” he said of his brother. “He’s my own brother. God told us to do it. God created my brother. God created me. You must read the Koran to see that what I say is true. This is in the Koran. That’s why we do it.”

Parochial fundamentalists, in Islam, they are. Not evolutionists.
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