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drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:36am PT
Huell Howser. Patron saint of Dingus Milktoast.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 9, 2013 - 08:42am PT
Yup!!!11111

DMT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:11am PT
haha, ed--was wondering if you'd be back. please don't call me sexy. you are an always cordial sparring partner, and you'd be surprised at the number of college graduate mathematics majors i've talked with who have never heard of david hilbert. likewise, i have spoken with one professor of physics (claremont) and a caltech/jpl materials scientist who don't know the first thing about the triple alpha process. alas, the scientific "we".

maybe you could link that conference agenda again for andrzej. he's the respect addict here.

healyje should know how little of it i have for "name reporters". they hang out in whorehouses mostly for like company.

the percentage is far worse than 99.9999 for your side, healyje. j. allen hynek discovered that right away when he got hired by the government to debunk it all for the public peanut gallery. and even if it's only 0.0001 for my side, such discrepancies, if they're solid, have been known to upset whole milieux in the fields of science. right, ed?

now if i could only get the OP re-involved. i wonder if he's done many routes on GPA. i wonder what bridwell would say.

a couple quotes for you, dingus:

"hates california
it's cold and it's damp
that's why the lady is a tramp."

and

"since i left plum tree
down in tennessee
it's the first time i've been warm."
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Dingus, my Dad lived in Stockton in the 30s.

In the 70s, my dad went through a nostalgia trip/mid-life crisis, so naturally, we visited his old neighborhood.

If he was alive today, I can't imagine what he would think of what has become of that once sleepy little city.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:18am PT
geez you're up early, dirtbag. you must be one really old fart.

stockton is a tough town because of the maritime influence. that's what a good ship canal will do.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Been up for nearly 2 hours now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Look, no one is saying there aren't perceived aerial visual or radar 'sightings' we can't explain. But the 99.9999% thing comes into play here again, but in this case as the amount of evidence we don't have in all these cases. That no doubt frustrated Hynek to the point of bother and, in conjunction with dealing with Air Force culture over time, set his conjectural wheels spinning out of control to produce such gems as:

Hynek: I hypothesize an 'M&M' technology encompassing the mental and material realms. The psychic realms, so mysterious to us today, may be an ordinary part of an advanced technology.

He had to come up with that because he understood the astronomical distances involved are otherwise insurmountable in explaining any alien visitation at all. But that, however, is the very definition of a conjecture and a clear indicator that he had long since abandoned science for the realm of pseudo-science to explain the explainable. Unfortunately, it's no more or less than unprovable sci-fi.

My dad was an early radar specialist and military test pilot turned commercial pilot who retired from United 747's after a forty year career in the air. He and his friends and acquaintances in the pilot community saw lots of things they couldn't explain, but neither he nor any of his friends ever put the slightest stock in UFO's as anything more than just that - or, as he puts it: "it's all a crock."
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:50am PT
By the content and "quality" of the discourse on this thread, the posters have collectively proven Mr. Donini's thesis: "America the ignorant." Congratulations Mr. Donini: sheer genius.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:54am PT
i think your problem is likewise the scientific "we", healyje. there really isn't anything more out there than individual people with individual understandings. sometimes they coincide remarkably, sometimes not, but the shortcomings of "scientific" knowledge leaves a lot of solid information off your radar.

there's a lot more than "sightings" involved. as an example, looking at that salla link to the recent russian documentary, they report an identical experience to what our nuclear weapons handlers once had in north dakota: the presence of a ufo shutting them down completely, and then the immediate response of higher-ups to hush-hush everything.

logical people can't accept such reliable testimonies as "anomalies". there are only two logical scenarios to be induced. either there is a far superior, secret human technology and interest which is perversely being hidden from the public, or there are nonhuman entities and their cultures involved.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 9, 2013 - 09:57am PT
You do realize that the "X-files" was fiction?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:01am PT
what you don't realize, dirtbag, is that writers for the x-files got their material not from their vivid imaginations--you will find very little vivid imagination in hollywood--but from "abductee" and "contactee" reports such as you will find from MUFON and elsewhere in the ufological community you like to decry as tin hats and flakes. the writers merely "fictionalize" what many others consider real--and present it in a way where it can be considered "entertainment". they've got a good thing going.

i don't mind adding that stephen spielberg fits right in with healyje's "name reporters" in this department. while the david ickes and david wilcocks of the world tell you about dastardly reptoids living beneath the earth, spielberg puts out two movies--super 8 and cowboys and aliens--which deal with naughty subterranean aliens.

yea, norton is all over the einstein question. seems like we were talking about all that a year ago. einstein had many people writing to him for some sort of pronouncement on divine and religious matters. i think he very gracefully told them they were barking up the wrong tree.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:05am PT
TB: ...there are only two logical scenarios to be induced. either there is a far superior, secret human technology and interest which is perversely being hidden from the public, or there are nonhuman entities and their cultures involved.

My point exactly. Someone or something absolutely has to be in overarching control of our existence or you and yours just wouldn't be able to sleep at night otherwise.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:11am PT
so--how do you "scientifically" explain those things, healyje?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:19am PT
You don't. And that's because there is insufficient evidentiary data to support any conclusions beyond unsupportable conjecture.

Look, if you had access to and expended the vast resources required to realize any of this conjecture and could do it with impunity over a sixty year span, why wouldn't you just do it at 6 pm in Times Square, the Mall of your choice, or at Disneyland? And why would you do it utilizing an absolutely mind boggling array of vehicle types all with vastly differing performance capabilities? And how would you even know we were here to begin with given humans have only existed for the blink of a geological, let alone cosmological, eye and light and radio only move so fast?

It's ridiculous in every respect.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:21am PT
i'm afraid i'm not following that.

but, adding here--the evidentiary part is solid, and remarkably identical for the russians and ourselves--an apparent ufo hovering over an important nuclear weapons silo facility, total loss of control by the personnel involved, then everything comes back on--reports are made to higher-ups, and hush-hush-hush. in the case of the incident in the u.s.a., the retired military involved came forward years later in a press conference. in spite of their orders to shut the hell up, they felt there is an overriding public interest.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Read it again then. Bottom line is you only have greater (Hynek) or lesser (Klimmer) fictional conjecture rather than data and something broaching a basic common sense intent for repeated alien visitations.

Edit: "the evidentiary part is solid" - not. It is so unsolid as to be non-existent. There is zero, zip, nada physical, verifiable recorded evidence for any such events. None whatsoever.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:30am PT
so--these guys are making it all up?

reading again what you wrote up there, healyje, you seem to be saying two different things. the first is the "white house lawn" argument, which is a common theme in ufology. why don't they just land on the white house lawn?--kinda like in that old movie, the day the earth stood still.

but i still can't make sense of the second thing you seem to be saying: "how would you know we were here to begin with".
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 9, 2013 - 10:38am PT
It isn't a matter of "making this stuff up" - it's a matter of people's conjecture for events they can't explain and the group / social dynamics when more than one person is involved. Having had to fact check as part of my work in the past and having volunteered on a crisis intervention team I can tell you that journalists, psych counselors and lawyers don't take what folks think they saw, heard, and experienced at face value. It gets down to the concept of 'reliable witness'.

TB: but i still can't make sense of the second thing you seem to be saying: "how would you know we were here to begin with".

Light and radio waves only travel so fast. Even if an 'advanced civilization' had the means of traveling here (really?), how would they know to come here as opposed to anywhere else? Remember, it's a big univers and galaxy and we're nothing, nowhere, and only been around for a blink in that context. We really haven't been here long enough to advertise or broadcast our presence to any real distances let alone attract so much attention from so many of these 'advanced civilizations' that we've turned into a veritable Union Station for alien visitations (if one was to take the rate and kinds of UFO 'sightings' at face value as bonafide alien craft).
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:01am PT
your explanation might work for a unique episode, healyje, but when a repetitive pattern emerges, you fight the tide.

you have to remember that allen hynek wasn't a scientific nobody. he was a high profile scientist brought aboard to "debunk". within two years, the air force had to try to debunk him, and did a very poor job of it. what hynek recognized was patterns in evidence. when those emerge, a good scientist ought to know that he's on a trail.

you seem to be assuming certain parameters which have fallen by the wayside over the past 20 years in astronomy. we've already picked out a number of prime candidates among our galactic neighbors. you're also far behind on the--admitted--speculations of advanced physics about three- and four-dimensional shortcuts, as well as the recent suggestion that the speed of light itself is a relative thing.

another very dangerous assumption is that an alien culture would be friendly--poor stephen hawking seems to have lost a little sleep worrying that it might not be--and that they don't know about us. i think that archaeological evidence has become overwhelming that "they" have known damn well about us all along.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jan 9, 2013 - 11:10am PT
47% of Americans believe in creationism

ig·no·rant
/ˈignərənt/
Adjective
Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy".

They are only ignorant if they do not know and understand the theories of evolution. That is, if you are suggesting that is the area of their ignorance. If they know all about something and choose to not accept it then maybe "ignorant" is not the best word for it.

I would agree that large numbers of people that believe in creationism don't know much about science but then there are probably a lot of atheists that are also ignorant in that same regard.

If you want to insult creationists, just use words like dumba$$, which is what you are thinking anyhow. Making the insult sound enlightened doesn't hide the intent.

Dave
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