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Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Put us solidly back in the win column.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Thats RIGHT. Tanks for the memories.

We lost a lot of great Americans this year.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
+1 on tanks.....and let's give our troops more assault weapons so they can do their job. Rumor has that private collectors, centered in Toquerville, have created a shortage that has left our military underarmed.

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Dec 27, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
A Great Man.

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 27, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Sorry, but got no sympathy for generals.

My condolences to his family, though.

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
My life mentor, Luther E. Schwartzkopf, was a cousin of the General.

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 27, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
He was 78. WTF?

I wish he had spoken up more, he knew what he was talking about.


Social climber
So Cal
Dec 27, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
n Vietnam in March 1970, Schwarzkopf was involved in rescuing men of his battalion from a minefield. He had received word that men under his command had encountered a minefield on the notorious Batangan Peninsula, he rushed to the scene in his helicopter, as was his custom while a battalion commander, in order to make his helicopter available. He found several soldiers still trapped in the minefield. Schwarzkopf urged them to retrace their steps slowly. Still, one man tripped a mine and was severely wounded but remained conscious. As the wounded man flailed in agony, the soldiers around him feared that he would set off another mine. Schwarzkopf, also wounded by the explosion, crawled across the minefield to the wounded man and held him down (using a “pinning” technique from his wrestling days at West Point) so another could splint his shattered leg. One soldier stepped away to break a branch from a nearby tree to make the splint. In doing so, he too hit a mine, which killed him and the two men closest to him, and blew an arm and a leg off Schwarzkopf’s artillery liaison officer. Eventually, Schwarzkopf led his surviving men to safety, by ordering the division engineers to mark the locations of the mines with shaving cream. (Some of the mines were of French manufacture and dated back to the Indochina conflict of the 1950s; others were brought by Japanese forces in World War II). Schwarzkopf says in his autobiograpy It Doesn’t Take a Hero that this incident firmly cemented his reputation as an officer who would risk his life for the soldiers under his command.

Schwarzkopf told his men that they might not like some of his strict rules, but it was for their own good. He told them “When you get on that plane to go home, if the last thing you think about me is ‘I hate that son of a bitch’, then that is fine because you’re going home alive.” Lt. General Hal Moore later wrote that it was during his time in Vietnam that Schwarzkopf acquired what later became his infamous temper, while arguing via radio for passing American Hueys to land and pick up his wounded men.

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Dec 28, 2012 - 05:04pm PT

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 28, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
What many people don't know about him, he had a genius I.Q. He would have made a better President than George Bush, as generals know first hand just how horrible war is, and are therefore less likely to get us involved in another one.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 03:37am PT
The General was a complex person.

He would have been a TERRIBLE President. His major flaw was his temper, which he could not control.

He was famous for firing subordinates that brought him bad news. (who were simply the messengers). He was a screamer and yeller.

Not the temperment for President.

He was clearly a genius. and actually a rocket scientist.

He spoke fluent French, German....and arabic, from the time he spent in Iran as a teen. When Arabs spoke their language in front of him, thinking he could not understand, they were wrong.

He may be a perfect example of a person who came through history to assume the job that was absolutely perfectly suited for him, which was the pinnacle of his career.

He was a General who actually cared about his men.

Riley, I'm not sure your point. You must care, or you would not have posted, eh? Here was a guy who basically devoted his life in service to the country, and very much was in physical danger on many could say for all of our freedom.

The piece you referenced was heartwrenching.
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:32am PT
i wrote this recently for another forum, in response to a marine veteran who likes to rave about all the "good" america is doing in the world. it seems appropriate here--tells you about the kind of war schwarzkopf conducted:

i was sitting in a local coffeeshop about a month ago with an elderly friend of mine named zan. this guy is pushing 90 years of age, but he's still got a lot of gumption. he's a veteran of the military, and maybe that's what keeps him soldiering on. he will stand out on the sidewalk during the oscar show in hollywood with signs protesting israel's role in world events. a frail-looking octogenarian, he has been physically attacked. can you imagine? but there's nothing frail about his spirit.

on this particular morning at this particular coffeeshop, ironically a couple days after veteran's day, zan and i were discussing the controversial subject of chemtrails, a subject which i've found very difficult to get a handle on. a man at a nearby table overheard our conversation for a time and then introduced himself and joined us. he was curious about chemtrails too, but after a bit, it became apparent he wanted to talk about his experience in the military. he looked to be around 50 years old.

he had served, from what i gathered, in the first war against iraq. i can give you a direct quote here, because i don't think i'll ever forget what he said.

"i'm ashamed of what i did. there was a village of 1,200 people, and they told us to go in and kill everyone, and we did."

when that sort of thing happened in vietnam, it eventually got on the evening news. walter cronkite made a career for himself reporting it, but he retired to his yachting and stopped paying close attention. poor lieutenant calley had to take all the blame for the my lai massacre.

nowadays, folks back home never hear all the details about all the "good" america does, and, because our military has so cleverly become an all-volunteer affair, no one pays attention to the "reasons" for the fighting, since johnny is likely to be in junior college and the guys in uniform are often named manuel or ernesto. as an aside, you may be interested to know that the first marine fatality from los angeles in the last iraq war had been an illegal alien from guatemala two years prior to joining up.

our friend at the coffeeshop had a bit more to say. several years after his stint in the military, he was approached to serve in iraq in a civilian capacity. the pay offering was extraordinary: $35,000 a month. he asked why they just didn't have the regular military do the work, which involved basic logistical support. came a two-word reply: depleted uranium.

do you know about that? you should. they say the cancer rates in the basra area, for those who still dare live there, are off the chart. there are also reports that american tank personnel developed rectal cancer by sitting on armor which uses the stuff. when you join the military, you may find yourself giving your life for your country in unexpected ways.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:41am PT
He was a good general for the Empire. He successfully protected his masters' interests in Exxon Mobile Shell BP in the middle east and thus protected the Empire. And he did not try to cross the Rubicon, good on him for that.

The man is no hero. Sorry, not gonna buy that load of tripe.


Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:20am PT
Ah, the good old days when we all sat transfixed as 'ol Norm showed videos of "smart" bombs going down chimneys and bad guys blowin' up. The "luckiest man in Iraq" video - what fun we had as a nation listening to his press conferences describing the US military's exploits. And nary a casualty! Turns out the smart bombs weren't so smart and Norm radically inflated their success ratio. Standard military procedure.

So when George W. goes looking for the mythical WMD in '03 everyone figured we'd see the same show, albeit with a different moderator. "Shock & Awe", bring it on!


Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:25am PT
Some of you here are as bad as those whackjobs that picket soldiers funerals.

This is simply a memorial thread. Perhaps if you have nothing but negative, attacking things to say, start a thread in that regard.


Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Maybe you should switch over to the Hannity site, Cragman, if what you're looking for is flag waving.

Trad climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Glad to hear some critical thinking going on. The man was good at what he did. But what was that? After days of 24 hour TV showing Star Wars missiles taking out scuds mid-flight it ends up it was all fake. There is doubt whether there was a single missle brought down. It's called propaganda. I call that unamerican. We the citizens have a right to know the truth. They work for us after all. At least they used to. I don't know what Normans role was in all this but - while he may have been shooting up bad guys - he sure as hell wasn't working for the good guys. Then there is viet nam; he saved his men while killing gooks. That's not a hero.

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
I didin't know Norman personally so no opinions happening there...People with bad tempers seem to have excessive self-importance issues which usually leads to mental abuse for others in contact with the ill-tempered person...How many innocent Americans have been sacrificed for Exxon-Mobils special interest...? RJ

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
You realize, Ron, that your comment doesn't make any sense, right?
The Warbler

the edge of America
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
Can a man who engineered so much death, suffering and destruction Rest In Peace?


Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
Can a man who engineered so much death, suffering and destruction Rest In Peace?

You know, I am not into the whole "war is good thing", but you have to consider, he was only doing his job
Patrick Sawyer

Originally California now Ireland
Dec 29, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
Riley Wyna and Tony, thanks for those articles.

I never saw the general as anything but a service man. He was no hero to me, at least not in his later years. Devoted to his country and his men, but also a willing pawn of administrations and corporations, and if he didn’t know that, he is no genius.

But he will be lionized, just like Reagan was (I try, but I still can’t understand why Reagan was lionized upon his death, when looking at the overall picture, but then, I never liked him as governor of California either).

Ole’ Norm was a soldier, nothing more, nothing less. And nothing wrong with that. But he usually toed the line, from what I can see.

My heroes?

My Uncle Bill Casey (Army), captured in North Africa, escaped from Nazi camp in Italy with two Canadian commandoes and made their way back to Allied (British) lines.

My Uncle Joe Sawyer (Marines), medals for the south Pacific but captured and suffered (along with so many other brave men) in Japanese POW camps.

Having just watched both a documentary on D-Day and the film The Longest Day, the men who landed on those beaches in Normandy are heroes.

The men of the Allied nations, in both the European and Pacific theaters, fighting fascism, they are heroes, especially those that gave their lives. Fascism that still exists in a number of guises.

And while not a hero, I am proud of his commitment. That is, my godson/nephew, Benjamin, who just did two tours in Afghanistan, a placed perhaps we should no longer be. He was in regular firefights, he didn’t want to be there but it was his duty.

As well as men like USMC Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, who dared to speak up and challenge the establishment.

There are other military heroes in my eyes, but Schwarzkopf is not one of them.


Ron, you have some good things to say.

Cragman, you should have stated from the start that this thread was a memorial. I highly doubt any Taco Standers would protest at the grave of a soldier, so get off your high horse. If you think that Schwarzkopf was such a great man, okay, that is your opinion, to each their own.

Perhaps you should have titled the thread differently. And also, because your mentor was his cousin, is there some bias there? Just asking.

Some of you here are as bad as those whackjobs that picket soldiers funerals.

I find that quote highly offensive, I am not a whackjob (and I doubt the other Supertopians who question your hero's actions are whack jobs), just giving my opinion, or don't you like the First Amendment? So like I said, get off your high horse.

And Schwarzkopf was not "just some soldier", he had his hand deeply in both military and political dealings/decisions (some of which may have cost needless US and civilian deaths/maimings). And as US citizens we have a right to question somebody in such high authority and his actions (collusions?) in involving our country in questionable wars.

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
Patrick Sawyer, please explain to me how a thread title that begins with Rest In Peace, could be construed as anything but a memorial thread.

Obviously, haters here never stop....even when a good man dies.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 29, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
Well hes ten thousand times more a man for doing what he did that our current president.

Ron, while I was going to be chiming in, basically on your side, with one sentence you stopped me cold.

Yep, there is absolutely no value to society to anyone who devotes his life to helping the poor, when he has the education and training to make the big bucks,eh? You want to spend your life beating the poor, and sullying the name of those who try to help them.

You total f*ck.
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