Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Ron can handle himself. I am quite purposely no one's mommy!

Besides, I ain't tangling with a gun nutter. :) Haha!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
I'm sure every soldier (or person confronted with an armed assailant) would love to hear you tell them that!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
And your chances of being confronted by an armed assailant are infinitely greater because you support arming them in the first place, obviously.


Do you think that the Canadian gun laws which I support support your statement? C'mon, try to think about it...



What about the quarter million girls kidnapped and put into sex trafficking in the US last year? They weren't soldiers. But every single one of them wishes they had some sort of defense, even if it was the probability that they would have had a way to defend themselves. Remember, you are dealing with current reality right now -you aren't building a dreamland from scratch and implementing the rules from the beginning.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
I'm talking about your situation in the year 2012 in the US. The situation I live in now is different than when I lived in the US, and our society functions better than yours in terms of gun violence. But adopting our laws isn't the same as adopting our way of life. You can't adopt our way of life by way of law. There are effective ways to change your society.



"WHat the HELL!??! Yeah, pretty crazy the stuff going on that nobody talks about eh?


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
I'm saying you have big problems. A law here or there isn't going to fix it. Taking guns away will cause more people to be victims in all aspects of society. Arming everyone is another step that will solve some problems and cause a lot of other problems just like limiting them will. You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.


If you are lost, if this is too hard to grasp, and you represent 47% of your society, I'm so sorry!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
You have to look at options that have worked for change in your society besides a pro-or con law , a liberal or conservative side, a repub or democrat choice.

ok tooth, I am interested in hearing your well considered thoughts and suggestions.....
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?



Or do you want me to do the thinking and apply these types of changes to this situation and then have guys dismiss it all and not even think for themselves because they are able to argue with one aspect of what I type?



I'd rather get both the republicans and democrats and that one other liberal thinking about something constructive rather than acting like schoolchildren (jghedge)





But if it is more fun to pick sides and throw tomatoes at each other and resist working together as a society to make change, have at it. That seems to be working well for your government and the fiscal cliff eh?





EDIT: jghedge's previous post is a good example of this.



JG, I just got finished saying that arming or disarming has good and bad effects. Just because you can find 2 good examples doesn't mean that there aren't 2 bad ones. There are both. A million examples of both. Every year and in every state. Grow up man!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?


please, and as specifically as you can

I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Penn and Teller give a good representation of most of our views. 3 part harmony. Hedge, at @8:04 in the first part your question is answered.






tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
My argument is apparently lost on you - you are arguing pro/con gun control.


I'm presenting the idea that your society in it's current state has ways to change over the next generation that are better than the either side of the argument that you can't seem to get over. Maybe you can get your accountant to help you out!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
Sheesh!
Just back from the Firebase and there's 170+ new posts! Too much to read.
Y'all must've figured something out by now, right?


Sad scene in front of the Moapa Indian fireworks and fire water store, a memorial shrine for the young indian that was shot dead there by tribal police days ago.
He was drunk. There was an escalating scene of confrontation. He came up with handgun and got off 2 shots.

Two months ago was worse. Another indian, a popular spirit dancer named Corey Kanosh was shot dead by a deputy. This one is under review.
He was unarmed!

But we should go ahead and ALWAYS trust that the cops will do the right thing (and also be there to protect us).




Got the drum to work flawlessly in the Suomi. Bump fired 72 rounds in about 20 second in a pretty tight cluster.
Momma said, "Don't you buy no ugly gun!" But she shoots purty.

Not so lucky with the Thompson which literally fell apart after 12 shots (good thing its under warranty).
Oh yeah, "all a person needs is one gun".

Right.


So whadjoo guys decide?



oops posted wrong thread
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
tooth must have missed my reply:


Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?

please, and as specifically as you can

I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
calling tooth

replies requested from your learned self
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Norton,

sorry, I was watching Penn and Teller.

One specific example is to use the same methods you used to change one very specific thing, heart disease. That has already saved more lives than gun control could if it worked 100%. How did you do it? Can those methods be used in any other situation?



Now I have a question for you? What else has changed in the US that has been a big improvement in society, and how was it done? All laws, some laws and some of something else? All of something else and only policy changes? Heck, how are most changes in society made? What differences in society are there? Where do they stem from? Raising kids has a lot to do with it. What about smoking? Has that changed lately? There is an example with a mix of policy changes (taxes) law changes (packaging) and societal changes (education and role models). But it took a generation.


Guns are different because they can kill people immediately and smoking takes a while. Guns are different because of what they can do compared to everything else in society. But people aren't different. People (society) is shaped and influenced the same regardless of the issue at hand, and it is people that you are dealing with, people shooting other people, not the inanimate object. So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc. That is like banning cigars vs. cigarettes. People will either smoke more or get the cigars, you have to deal with the PEOPLE to get your society to the level of all those you envy or at least quote in your stats. Wouldn't that make more sense to 'mitigate mass murders' while also affecting murders, killings, violence, almost killings, and a host of other things while you are at it? Or will banning AR's do that? Hey, I don't have a horse in this race, none of your changes will affect me, but these simplistic arguments from both sides aren't going to make the changes you think it will, you won't turn into the UK or Canada in terms of gun violence just by adopting our laws.


ps. I spent the last 10 years in the US. I've got a pretty good idea of life in 3 states.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

No you're not. These endless debates always loose focus and quickly drive off the road into "gun violence" and "gun regulation" debacles.

Mass/random murder is it's own topic which several here have tried to discuss. But because of the tools/firearms involved in the recent case, that discussion becomes impossible. Now we've covered slavery, the 2nd, and armed insurrection.....

Critical thinking skills have left this planet.

Pointless really.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
fear thoughtlessly said:

No you're not.

wrong, you do not know me or speak for me, you speak only for yourself

and yes, I AM interested in hearing the specifics that tooth has to offer

and guess what? I have no interest in anything you have to say
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
tooth offered
So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc.

seriously, I was hoping for specifics

just saying we Americans need to "think more about people", well, ok

after all of that criticism you started out with, I figured you had really thought this through and would eventually come forth with lots of concrete suggestions

disappointed, want to take another shot at it or is that all you got?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Drug addiction is another issue that has solely been treated as a crime unsuccessfully.

Treating it from multiple angles after the fact with MORE emphasis placed on raising our kids properly is going to reduce this problem as much as reasonably possible.





Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?





You already have 22,000 gun laws according to Penn. If you want 50% improvement in your crime stats, or 95% to get to where the UK is, how many laws will do that for you?

How many laws need to be passed to get a criminal to obey?


How about creating less criminals in the first place? Leaving fewer kids lying around with video games is a corner of the solution, leaving less guns lying around easily accessible is one as well. There is no all-or-none solution, and no 99% effective solution either. But if you look at other examples of how society has been shaped/changed, you can figure out the most effective overall strategy to reduce a gun crime while at the same time effecting other positive changes.



Norton, if you want laws that you can argue with me about passing or changing, you won't get it. I'm simply saying that this isn't going to change faster or more efficiently than any of these other problems have if you don't use all the tools used to make the other changes. Passing a gun law isn't even using all the tools we know work.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems

One lesson to learn from Dunblane is that a madman with simple handguns can kill an entire classroom of children and their teacher. Assault weapons are optional.

Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.) What actually happened was that in areas like Lancashire the use of guns by criminals skyrocketed by more than 600%.

I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate.

Hedge, give the whole Apache helicopter vs civilians with small arms thing a rest. If you really want to portray gun rights advocates as "nuts" with any credibility, you should not act like one yourself.

Good night.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:20am PT
My eyes are weary. Can one of the brighter folks on this thread (you know who you are), please summarize where we are to date?

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