Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Norton,

sorry, I was watching Penn and Teller.

One specific example is to use the same methods you used to change one very specific thing, heart disease. That has already saved more lives than gun control could if it worked 100%. How did you do it? Can those methods be used in any other situation?



Now I have a question for you? What else has changed in the US that has been a big improvement in society, and how was it done? All laws, some laws and some of something else? All of something else and only policy changes? Heck, how are most changes in society made? What differences in society are there? Where do they stem from? Raising kids has a lot to do with it. What about smoking? Has that changed lately? There is an example with a mix of policy changes (taxes) law changes (packaging) and societal changes (education and role models). But it took a generation.


Guns are different because they can kill people immediately and smoking takes a while. Guns are different because of what they can do compared to everything else in society. But people aren't different. People (society) is shaped and influenced the same regardless of the issue at hand, and it is people that you are dealing with, people shooting other people, not the inanimate object. So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc. That is like banning cigars vs. cigarettes. People will either smoke more or get the cigars, you have to deal with the PEOPLE to get your society to the level of all those you envy or at least quote in your stats. Wouldn't that make more sense to 'mitigate mass murders' while also affecting murders, killings, violence, almost killings, and a host of other things while you are at it? Or will banning AR's do that? Hey, I don't have a horse in this race, none of your changes will affect me, but these simplistic arguments from both sides aren't going to make the changes you think it will, you won't turn into the UK or Canada in terms of gun violence just by adopting our laws.


ps. I spent the last 10 years in the US. I've got a pretty good idea of life in 3 states.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

No you're not. These endless debates always loose focus and quickly drive off the road into "gun violence" and "gun regulation" debacles.

Mass/random murder is it's own topic which several here have tried to discuss. But because of the tools/firearms involved in the recent case, that discussion becomes impossible. Now we've covered slavery, the 2nd, and armed insurrection.....

Critical thinking skills have left this planet.

Pointless really.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
fear thoughtlessly said:

No you're not.

wrong, you do not know me or speak for me, you speak only for yourself

and yes, I AM interested in hearing the specifics that tooth has to offer

and guess what? I have no interest in anything you have to say
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
tooth offered
So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc.

seriously, I was hoping for specifics

just saying we Americans need to "think more about people", well, ok

after all of that criticism you started out with, I figured you had really thought this through and would eventually come forth with lots of concrete suggestions

disappointed, want to take another shot at it or is that all you got?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Drug addiction is another issue that has solely been treated as a crime unsuccessfully.

Treating it from multiple angles after the fact with MORE emphasis placed on raising our kids properly is going to reduce this problem as much as reasonably possible.





Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?





You already have 22,000 gun laws according to Penn. If you want 50% improvement in your crime stats, or 95% to get to where the UK is, how many laws will do that for you?

How many laws need to be passed to get a criminal to obey?


How about creating less criminals in the first place? Leaving fewer kids lying around with video games is a corner of the solution, leaving less guns lying around easily accessible is one as well. There is no all-or-none solution, and no 99% effective solution either. But if you look at other examples of how society has been shaped/changed, you can figure out the most effective overall strategy to reduce a gun crime while at the same time effecting other positive changes.



Norton, if you want laws that you can argue with me about passing or changing, you won't get it. I'm simply saying that this isn't going to change faster or more efficiently than any of these other problems have if you don't use all the tools used to make the other changes. Passing a gun law isn't even using all the tools we know work.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems

One lesson to learn from Dunblane is that a madman with simple handguns can kill an entire classroom of children and their teacher. Assault weapons are optional.

Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.) What actually happened was that in areas like Lancashire the use of guns by criminals skyrocketed by more than 600%.

I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate.

Hedge, give the whole Apache helicopter vs civilians with small arms thing a rest. If you really want to portray gun rights advocates as "nuts" with any credibility, you should not act like one yourself.

Good night.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:20am PT
My eyes are weary. Can one of the brighter folks on this thread (you know who you are), please summarize where we are to date?

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
You forgot about the helicopters Hedge...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:14pm PT

Are gun control laws racist?



Higher Brady score = higher black homicide rate and lower (slightly) white homicide rate.

Guns sold /vs violent crime rate





Homicide rates, all UN members.




civilian gun ownership all UN members





http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-fails-say-statistics-from-gun-control-advocates/?singlepage=true
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
From the same article.

For the period of 2007-2010, RTC states’ mass murder rate averaged 0.057, a 31% drop from the 2000-2006 average. Non-RTC states’ averaged a 0.070 rate, an increase of 97% over the 2000-2006 period. For the period of 2000-2010, RTC states experienced a 59% drop in their mass murder rate, while non-RTC states’ rate more than doubled (111%):

RTC= Right to Carry
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
Gun ownership in the US = 9 guns per 10 people.


UK = 1.



Gun sales when Obama whispers about addressing mass killings this month ++++++++++



Gun sales when Obama made gun laws since 2008 __




So if a higher rate of gun ownership = higher rate of gun crime




and




talking about gun control = increase in gun ownership




and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)





What do you think will be the real-world effects of saying NO, don't put your hand in the cookie jar? In YOUR country? Using this past month as evidence, not 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the planet?



It's going to take a lot more than just politicians making laws to fix your problem. You need the media to be helpful, you need families to raise their kids, NOT tv, you need, well, families. You need less rat race, less drugs, less medicating problems, less cities, more outdoors, more exercise, more serving people, less rat race, more paying attention to anything other than what the media throws at you.


#1 killer in the US is cardiovascular disease. This has been effectively reduced a lot. #32 is violence. Take a lesson from your successes at the top of the list to deal with the ones at the end of the list.






I think a lot of people are lazy. They are used to expecting the government to make a law and solve their problem for them. They are willing to give up rights and freedoms so they don't have to DO anything. They usually then just blame the opposing party when things don't turn out the way they had thought, and then do nothing again. I keep seeing it in your culture, you turn fingers toward each other then since you are mostly on one side or the other, red vs. blue. That's a pretty lazy approach I see, each side ignoring the big picture and pushing stupid little facts that DONT stand alone, stats like 35 in the UK, all mass murders in gun free zones, etc. Both sides are playing the same zero sum game.




But that's easier, right?


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)


so tooth,

please name and describe these supposedly meaningful and sweeping "gun laws" the President signed into law since 2008 that you apparently maintain had the effect of decreasing gun crime in the past three years?

thanks
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
I put zilch, no effect. Not minus signs. You should know the laws, and I'm sure you do, that he allowed to expire and/or change. Don't embarrass yourself by having a Canadian tell you. (national park gun laws, Amtrak gun laws...)


and jghedge, you are reading my logic wrong. If I had meant, 'don't do anything' that's what I would have said. I meant what I said - use the successes as a pattern for other situations. Your reading comprehension needs to increase to an adult level.



So besides reading comprehension issues and criticism, you haven't really said anything constructive.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
This one will really test the reading comprehension skills. A paper published in 2007 in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy.

Link

MH I think you'll find this one interesting, there is a lot of comparative data across international lines.

About the authors:

                                                                           *Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco.

** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
that's right tooth

inconsequential bills he signed into law, I agree


yet you thought them important enough to mention above as somehow relevant to your "point" relating them to gun crime increases and decreases

critical thinking skills in action

PS: your being "Canadian" has nothing to do with your credibility or lack of it while commenting on American gun culture, yet you repeatedly bring it up, again unrelated

tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
I included them to show the effect of passing laws on overall crime and that it made virtually no difference thus the flatline, not a plus or negative sign. Your post shows that you agree with the point I made, even if you didn't get it.

I'm not bringing up Canadian for credibility. I'm discussing a topic and I want you to think about points instead of being able to throw me into one of the two groups you have and then just attack me because I'm pro/con dem/repub since that gets you nowhere.


Are you really reading all this into it - - - or just trying to argue superfluous points and avoid the issue?


DanaB

climber
CT
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Mauser speaks out publicly against the United Nations Program of Action to Prevent, Combat and Eradicate the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects. He and others know the Program is a scam for an international body to curtail citizens’ gun rights by declaring certain of their activities “illicit.”

Kris, read up a little on these guys.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 30, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
tooth,

you talk a lot of "fluff" with little specifics for reducing mass murders in USA

you bemoan kids watching video games for example, along with other vaguenesses

you state that passing more laws won't do any good because we already have lots of laws
and that has not stopped mass murders here

you seem to blame many aspects of American life or "culture"

You know what, tooth?

anyone can criticize the obvious, as you are good at doing

I have asked you to quit screwing around and get specific, one would have to believe that you who are so capable of criticizing and analysis who also be capable of concrete, reasonable, and EFFECTIVE suggestions as solutions to mitigate this problem.

Yet you have really not offered anything like that.

I HAVE, when are YOU planning on doing so?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
So you agree that you are arguing useless aspects of an individual instead of the points that I'm making.

If my points aren't specific enough, it is because there isn't a specific enough demographic to apply them to. If I were to apply those points to myself I could be specific. You have a varied population and trying to fit everyone into specific laws means you will need more than the 22,000 gun laws you already have. Nobody is going to do that, if you can't apply principles to individual situations you will remain frustrated that I'm not giving you specific enough examples that you can apply to a situation that they wouldn't work in so that you can criticize them.


Of course, you are more comfortable just making laws, then forcing everyone to fit into your square hole. That's a pipe dream. It is easy to say that we should take away every gun and then there will be no gun violence. Nobody argues with that logic, but it isn't possible in real life. You sure have been very specific in this way, but based on the assumption that we live in some dream. Not the reality that there are 200,000 guns out there that won't be turned in no matter what.


If I were to use your logic specifically and apply it to the nation as a whole instead of just my kids, I would say that nobody plays a video game with a gun in it, nobody watches a movie with a gun in it, but every kid learns to hunt and use a gun as a tool from a young age. But we all know that not one of those 3 points is possible to do as a nation even though it has happened in my family.

You seem to try and draw out all-or-none arguments so that you can simply deny that it can be done, and yet you use the same arguments yourself.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Fix it or f*#k it, blowhards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If you can't fix it, then kindly shut the f*#k up..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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