Does the NRA have a stupid pill problem?

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jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
"Hedge, at @8:04 in the first part your question is answered."

Yeah, I get the whole "usurpation of our liberties" deal

Sorry, but too many people have proven they're not responsible enough to own guns

And too many responsible owners refused to allow the gov't to do anything about it.

When you can figure out a way to deny ownership to those not responsible enough to own them, while letting those who are keep them, you let us know.

Till then, we're all better off without them, as the examples of other countries have proven.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
tooth must have missed my reply:


Norton, I've put examples of the types of change that I have seen work in your society in this thread already.

Should I re-post?

please, and as specifically as you can

I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

and especially coming from a Canadian so knowledgeable about our "ways"
jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
"I'm presenting the idea that your society in it's current state has ways to change over the next generation that are better than the either side of the argument that you can't seem to get over"

OK - how?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
calling tooth

replies requested from your learned self
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Norton,

sorry, I was watching Penn and Teller.

One specific example is to use the same methods you used to change one very specific thing, heart disease. That has already saved more lives than gun control could if it worked 100%. How did you do it? Can those methods be used in any other situation?



Now I have a question for you? What else has changed in the US that has been a big improvement in society, and how was it done? All laws, some laws and some of something else? All of something else and only policy changes? Heck, how are most changes in society made? What differences in society are there? Where do they stem from? Raising kids has a lot to do with it. What about smoking? Has that changed lately? There is an example with a mix of policy changes (taxes) law changes (packaging) and societal changes (education and role models). But it took a generation.


Guns are different because they can kill people immediately and smoking takes a while. Guns are different because of what they can do compared to everything else in society. But people aren't different. People (society) is shaped and influenced the same regardless of the issue at hand, and it is people that you are dealing with, people shooting other people, not the inanimate object. So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc. That is like banning cigars vs. cigarettes. People will either smoke more or get the cigars, you have to deal with the PEOPLE to get your society to the level of all those you envy or at least quote in your stats. Wouldn't that make more sense to 'mitigate mass murders' while also affecting murders, killings, violence, almost killings, and a host of other things while you are at it? Or will banning AR's do that? Hey, I don't have a horse in this race, none of your changes will affect me, but these simplistic arguments from both sides aren't going to make the changes you think it will, you won't turn into the UK or Canada in terms of gun violence just by adopting our laws.


ps. I spent the last 10 years in the US. I've got a pretty good idea of life in 3 states.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
I am looking forward to learning exactly how we Americans can mitigate our mass murders, which IS the topic......thanks

No you're not. These endless debates always loose focus and quickly drive off the road into "gun violence" and "gun regulation" debacles.

Mass/random murder is it's own topic which several here have tried to discuss. But because of the tools/firearms involved in the recent case, that discussion becomes impossible. Now we've covered slavery, the 2nd, and armed insurrection.....

Critical thinking skills have left this planet.

Pointless really.
jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
"So whadjoo guys decide?"

We all decided to quit worrying about it, and just defer our concerns to the historical record of our country

It being a social issue and all, and there being only one political ideology that always wins on social issues (hint: begins with the letter "L")

And with the opposing ideology currently obsessed with the most rapid method of politically exterminating itself, and a Supreme Court Chief Justice who agrees with Obama on social issues (and more like him on the way), we figure letting you guys stockpile your arsenals might not be such a bad thing - it'll make for a much more entertaining video when the Hellfire missiles blow it all up, with you in it

How about you guys - what'd you talk about today? Anyone put their money where their mouth is, and renounce their citizenship yet? Decide on who's compound is least susceptible to airborne assault? Find any webhosts who'll keep your suicide videos online after you're gone?





Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
fear thoughtlessly said:

No you're not.

wrong, you do not know me or speak for me, you speak only for yourself

and yes, I AM interested in hearing the specifics that tooth has to offer

and guess what? I have no interest in anything you have to say
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
tooth offered
So to make change you need to think more about people and how to change that aspect rather than the inanimate object and whether it has a 5-round or 25-round capacity etc.

seriously, I was hoping for specifics

just saying we Americans need to "think more about people", well, ok

after all of that criticism you started out with, I figured you had really thought this through and would eventually come forth with lots of concrete suggestions

disappointed, want to take another shot at it or is that all you got?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 29, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Drug addiction is another issue that has solely been treated as a crime unsuccessfully.

Treating it from multiple angles after the fact with MORE emphasis placed on raising our kids properly is going to reduce this problem as much as reasonably possible.





Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?





You already have 22,000 gun laws according to Penn. If you want 50% improvement in your crime stats, or 95% to get to where the UK is, how many laws will do that for you?

How many laws need to be passed to get a criminal to obey?


How about creating less criminals in the first place? Leaving fewer kids lying around with video games is a corner of the solution, leaving less guns lying around easily accessible is one as well. There is no all-or-none solution, and no 99% effective solution either. But if you look at other examples of how society has been shaped/changed, you can figure out the most effective overall strategy to reduce a gun crime while at the same time effecting other positive changes.



Norton, if you want laws that you can argue with me about passing or changing, you won't get it. I'm simply saying that this isn't going to change faster or more efficiently than any of these other problems have if you don't use all the tools used to make the other changes. Passing a gun law isn't even using all the tools we know work.
jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
"Not learning our lesson on how humans problems work from other issues and banging our head against the wall with mass shootings is kinda silly, isn't it?"

Agreed.

I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems

Beyond that, the American Civil War also offers examples of how to deal with recalcitrant social issues - and it seems increasingly likely we may have to repeat that experience - on a vastly smaller scale, of course, due to the whole "gun nut vs Apache helicopter" thing.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 29, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
I always refer to the lesson learned from the Dunblane massacre, and the successful solution that was implemented as a result, when asked for solutions to our gun problems

One lesson to learn from Dunblane is that a madman with simple handguns can kill an entire classroom of children and their teacher. Assault weapons are optional.

Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.) What actually happened was that in areas like Lancashire the use of guns by criminals skyrocketed by more than 600%.

I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate.

Hedge, give the whole Apache helicopter vs civilians with small arms thing a rest. If you really want to portray gun rights advocates as "nuts" with any credibility, you should not act like one yourself.

Good night.
jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
"Another is that during the decade after UK banned handguns in response to this act of violence the use of guns in crime doubled (on a national average.)"

Yes, because they use gun possession as part of the stats - possession which was legal before.

And, of course, the simple truth of only 35 gun deaths last year ends the conversation.

Banning guns virtually ended gun deaths in the UK.

All that remains is for those who deny the efficacy of banning them to grow up.


"I'm looking to find a breakdown of gun deaths in UK more locally, to identify the real trend. One thing is for sure, over time if the use of guns by bad guys is going up so will the death rate."


It's gone down, though, from 42 in 2009.

"Funny that", as they say, considering it contradicts the claim of yours I highlighted above.

You're just as easy to prove wrong, and just as impervious to reason, as the half-wits on this thread who share your ideology.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
My eyes are weary. Can one of the brighter folks on this thread (you know who you are), please summarize where we are to date?

jghedge

climber
Dec 29, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Roughly the same place

Slightly better educated gun nuts, who recalibrated their denial as needed

And their discouraged would-be mentors still wondering why they bother (other than for entertainment's sake)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 30, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
You forgot about the helicopters Hedge...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:14pm PT

Are gun control laws racist?



Higher Brady score = higher black homicide rate and lower (slightly) white homicide rate.

Guns sold /vs violent crime rate





Homicide rates, all UN members.




civilian gun ownership all UN members





http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-fails-say-statistics-from-gun-control-advocates/?singlepage=true
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
From the same article.

For the period of 2007-2010, RTC states’ mass murder rate averaged 0.057, a 31% drop from the 2000-2006 average. Non-RTC states’ averaged a 0.070 rate, an increase of 97% over the 2000-2006 period. For the period of 2000-2010, RTC states experienced a 59% drop in their mass murder rate, while non-RTC states’ rate more than doubled (111%):

RTC= Right to Carry
jghedge

climber
Dec 30, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
All of which is just dancing around the statistic gun nuts bend over backwards to avoid:


12,000 Gun deaths in the US last year

35 in the UK

Guns are outlawed in the UK


You can cherry-pick all the "ownership vs crime rate" stats you want - they don't really matter.

12.000 gun deaths is the only stat that matters.



tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 30, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Gun ownership in the US = 9 guns per 10 people.


UK = 1.



Gun sales when Obama whispers about addressing mass killings this month ++++++++++



Gun sales when Obama made gun laws since 2008 __




So if a higher rate of gun ownership = higher rate of gun crime




and




talking about gun control = increase in gun ownership




and the laws Obama has allowed these past 4 years, which have made gun ownership easier - and you see gun crime decrease slightly (not anywhere near the countries you envy)





What do you think will be the real-world effects of saying NO, don't put your hand in the cookie jar? In YOUR country? Using this past month as evidence, not 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the planet?



It's going to take a lot more than just politicians making laws to fix your problem. You need the media to be helpful, you need families to raise their kids, NOT tv, you need, well, families. You need less rat race, less drugs, less medicating problems, less cities, more outdoors, more exercise, more serving people, less rat race, more paying attention to anything other than what the media throws at you.


#1 killer in the US is cardiovascular disease. This has been effectively reduced a lot. #32 is violence. Take a lesson from your successes at the top of the list to deal with the ones at the end of the list.






I think a lot of people are lazy. They are used to expecting the government to make a law and solve their problem for them. They are willing to give up rights and freedoms so they don't have to DO anything. They usually then just blame the opposing party when things don't turn out the way they had thought, and then do nothing again. I keep seeing it in your culture, you turn fingers toward each other then since you are mostly on one side or the other, red vs. blue. That's a pretty lazy approach I see, each side ignoring the big picture and pushing stupid little facts that DONT stand alone, stats like 35 in the UK, all mass murders in gun free zones, etc. Both sides are playing the same zero sum game.




But that's easier, right?


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